[HN Gopher] New York restaurants fight back against reservations...
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New York restaurants fight back against reservations by bots
Author : lxm
Score : 80 points
Date : 2023-11-10 16:33 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bloomberg.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bloomberg.com)
| karaterobot wrote:
| This doesn't seem like an unsolvable problem, they'd just have to
| bite one of a number of bullets to verify that the person who
| made the reservation is the person who showed up to the
| restaurant: restaurants insisting on strict identity verification
| for the reservation systems they use, or a rule that says the
| name on your credit card or driver's license must match the name
| of the person who made the reservation in order to be seated.
| People would naturally complain, but if the _reservations_ are
| going for up to $300, I assume the restaurants have some
| leverage.
|
| Or just go back to telephone reservations. If you hear the same
| voice calling over and over, you tell them there aren't any more
| reservations available. Imperfect, yes, but cheap.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| _they 'd just have to bite one of a number of bullets to verify
| that the person who made the reservation is the person who
| showed up to the restaurant_
|
| Once someone shows up for a reservation, it's too late to
| really do anything about it. No restaurant is going to turn
| away money like that. Popular enough spots may have a line at
| the door, but you also don't want to risk a commotion turning
| away hungry people with money and some evidence of a
| reservation.
|
| Plus, fine dining places like some of these are as much about
| the atmosphere and service as the meal. Being treated with such
| suspicion would put a bad taste in my mouth before my first
| bite of food...
| karaterobot wrote:
| I can see that argument. If it wrecks these reservation
| scammers, it'd be better in the long run. But maybe
| restaurants aren't in the position (or of the mindset) to
| play a game of chicken like that (chicken is no game at a
| restaurant...)
|
| But in general, the restaurants which are most affected by
| this scheme are the ones who are likely in the best position
| to do something about it. They may lose some customers who
| bought fraudulent reservations, which seems like not much of
| a loss. They may also lose some people who get mad about
| being questioned. But, in the long run, I think they'd win
| more fans among people who couldn't go to the restaurant at
| all when all the reservations were scooped up by bots.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| Exactly. It almost feels like a non problem. You only have
| this problem when your restaurant is in such high demand
| that it's worthwhile to be targeted by bots. If your
| restaurant is in such high demand, you have several tools
| at your disposal and the wherewithal to police reservations
| much more than some other less in demand restaurant. But
| those less in demand restaurants will never have this
| problem in the first place. And like you said, if you're
| that in demand, you can afford to lose a few customers
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Instead of relying on these services like Resy, these places can
| go back to having to call for a reservation. I'm not a restaurant
| owner, so I'm sure what this tradeoff entails. You can also
| charge for a reservation, but not every place will be able to get
| away with that, as it will turn off legitimate diners, too.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| Or just literally charge a deposit for the reservation.
| Restaurant owners are loathe to do this due to fear that it
| will drive away customers but if you are a restaurant where
| bots are a problem in the first place like the subject matter
| then you certainly have enough demand to justify doing so. The
| most in demand (eg Michelin star) restaurants already mostly do
| this
| dfxm12 wrote:
| What do you mean "or"? Did you read my comment? :)
| bee_rider wrote:
| I wonder if they interpreted your "charge" as more like a
| surcharge or fee, rather than a deposit.
| bee_rider wrote:
| The system of reservations with no cost or cancellation fee
| actually seems like it ought to provide more-or-less no
| signal, come to think of it.
| euroderf wrote:
| I'd think that a modest fee (like, five bucks ?) would filter
| out most of the robononsense.
| well_actulily wrote:
| AI assistants that are able to do routine phone calls are only
| going to get better, though.
| dangus wrote:
| If you go back to phone calls only, you need a person earning a
| wage to sit on the phone instead of doing something else.
|
| And then you'll get AI bots making calls anyway (Google already
| does this)
| paxys wrote:
| Not sure what that changes? Scalpers can very easily outsource
| making phone calls to some call center for pennies, while
| legitimate customers will now find it harder.
| crazygringo wrote:
| I've never understood why restaurants themselves don't charge for
| prime-time reservations. If scalpers can do it, the restaurant
| can too.
|
| Because let's be honest -- dining at certain highly exclusive
| restaurants on a Friday night is just as much of an event as
| going to the theater. These aren't neighborhood restaurants with
| average food that are meant for locals that we're talking about
| here. These are fancy. If you want to eat at 7 pm on Friday, why
| _shouldn 't_ it be more expensive than Tuesday at 5 pm?
|
| And if restaurant owners don't want to take advantage, they can
| always offset it by lowering the food and drink prices slightly
| the whole week long. (Not that they're obligated to -- making a
| profit is already hard enough as is.)
| richiebful1 wrote:
| I've been to a restaurant that already does this: pay $X a
| head, with that dollar amount applied to your bill. I want to
| say one of the big restaurant POS providers (maybe Toast)
| provided the infrastructure behind it.
| jahnu wrote:
| I read POS as something angry before I read Point Of Sale!
| hooverd wrote:
| If you've worked food service or retail those are
| interchangeable.
| barbazoo wrote:
| > with that dollar amount applied to your bill
|
| that's smart, that way you get tricked into including yet
| another line item in your tip
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| They mean the deposit to reserve goes toward purchasing
| whatever you buy to eat.
| bombcar wrote:
| Many bars and such already basically do this - they call it
| "happy hour" and it's often a whole afternoon until the rush.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah, I often like eating earlier and in some places, happy
| hour can be a really good deal. Just ate at my standard pre-
| theater place a couple nights ago that has $1 oysters--which
| I love but hate spending $3 each on.
| heisenbit wrote:
| In my city in Germany they are now doing exactly that - no show
| must pay. While there is no flood of bots we have trade fairs
| and too many people hosting a group guests started reserving
| seats in Chinese, Italian, Steak etc. restaurants to later
| offer their guest a last minute choice.
| barbazoo wrote:
| > no show must pay
|
| Out of curiosity, how does that work? When making a
| reservation do you have to provide your credit card? I highly
| doubt that given that it's Germany :) Seriously though, how
| do they make people pay?
| ducklingquack wrote:
| Exactly that: "Please provide your card to complete the
| booking". I was so pissed about it I signed up for Revolut
| (for their single-use cards). Funnily enough, restaurants
| that force you to do this are neither the best nor
| especially highly rated.
| bradleyjg wrote:
| Many people get mad if these things are made too explicit.
| justinlkarr wrote:
| I think this is actually common now. I'm often asked to make a
| deposit on a reservation when using Resy.
|
| I'm not aware that there is variable or dynamic pricing
| component to it, however. That's a great idea and something I
| bet they are considering.
|
| In practice, dynamic pricing it is not a panacea. You still
| need to beat the arbitrage market. Charge too much: customers
| don't reserve. Charge too little: brokers snap it up.
| eternauta3k wrote:
| Auction them off :)
| nurple wrote:
| Most restaurants will have a cheaper menu for lunch than for
| dinner. Nice places will usually have different menus, but many
| just serve the same for simplicity and cost.
| bmmayer1 wrote:
| I can speak to this! I was "canceled" in 2014...before it was
| cool...for doing exactly this[0]
|
| A couple reasons restaurants don't do this:
|
| 1) Loss of quality control over customer experience. For
| example they provide a $100 dinner, but the client expects a
| $200 dinner. That creates bad experience
|
| 2) Desire to maintain accessibility on price point (same
| reasons artists don't charge more for tickets) and perceived
| inequities of charging extra for reservations
|
| 3) Rewarding loyal customers who value the food / brand /
| hospitality rather than the highest bidder which tends to bring
| in out-of-towners, Amex centurion card holders, wannabe
| influencers -- people that don't help create loyalty
|
| There are many other reasons I'm sure as well. Most
| chefs/GMs/owners I talked to at the time emphasized that they
| sincerely are not in this for the money, and yes, they like to
| make a living, but being able to build a community of food
| lovers who are passionate about their brand is what they really
| care about. I ended up pivoting to try to build a shift
| management app soon thereafter...didn't work out but a good
| entrepreneurship lesson!
|
| [0]https://techcrunch.com/2014/07/03/everyone-seems-mad-at-
| rese...
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| These reasons seem to only apply if the surcharge applied to
| every reservation?
|
| Could only charging for peak times cause these downsides?
| sumtechguy wrote:
| There is another way. It involves no money and nothing for
| the restaurant to do. First come first serve. Basically you
| want in. Show up and stand in line.
| touisteur wrote:
| Many places in Paris do that now with virtual waiting
| line (show up, get a number and an ETA, get bipped when
| it's about to be your turn...). Nice when in a walkable
| nice neighborhood.
| ghaff wrote:
| One downside is that means you basically can't go to that
| restaurant pre-theater or pre- some other fixed time
| event. Though you're eating earlier if you're doing that
| anyway.
| rat9988 wrote:
| Sure, that's how it works, and reservation is the
| solution to it, not the other way around.
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| Depends. For me, being in home is much better option than
| standing in a queue with unknown waiting time just to get
| the previlige of eating in a restaurant. Most people go
| to resturant not as neccessity but a optional visit to
| spend good time. And this solution takes away good time.
|
| I agree for places like doctors visit though. Everyone
| should stand in queue rather than a limited reservation.
| asdff wrote:
| It was never cool. Popular and profitable no doubt today, but
| literally every consumer there is hates the dynamic pricing
| model.
| kelnos wrote:
| I think the GP was referring to "cancelling people" when he
| said "before it was cool".
|
| But I do agree with your point ;)
| paxys wrote:
| I mean yeah, doing it as a third party service without the
| restaurant's involvement or consent will obviously get you
| backlash. People aren't pissed with Dorsia, for example,
| which does it right.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > 2) Desire to maintain accessibility on price point (same
| reasons artists don't charge more for tickets)
|
| since when were there not different prices for tickets based
| on seating? if a concert is only one or two nights, then the
| nose bleed seats could be the same as eating at the
| restaurant on a Tuesday night, while the front row seats
| would be eating on Friday nights.
| kelnos wrote:
| People hated your business because you brought ticket
| scalping to the restaurant world. Many years ago, I went on a
| couple dates with a 'professional' ticket scalper; as soon as
| I found out what she did (which she tried to hide with
| several all-too-transparent euphemisms), I noped right out of
| there. These people are the worst of capitalism.
|
| I don't think most people mind when a restaurant sells the
| moral equivalent of tickets to dining slots ahead of time.
| I've visited restaurants that do that, and had no problem
| with it.
|
| The issue is that you were taking something that was free
| (open reservation slots), and then forcing people to pay for
| them if they wanted to dine there... when they could have
| just made a reservation -- perhaps farther in advance -- for
| free.
|
| I agree that most people in the restaurant business aren't in
| it for the money (if they are, they've picked the wrong
| industry). But scalping reservations to their restaurants is
| making things worse, not better.
| earleybird wrote:
| Fair to say "exploiting the commons for personal gain"?
| paxys wrote:
| Plenty of high end restaurants in the city do this. The problem
| is that it usually makes things worse. If I want to book a
| dinner, and the restaurant has something like a $200 non-
| refundable deposit, I'm going to think long and hard before
| committing because my plans can always change. A bot on the
| other hand wouldn't hesitate because they can turn around and
| sell the reservation to anyone they want. The deposit is simply
| a cost of doing business for them.
| koolba wrote:
| > A bot on the other hand wouldn't hesitate because they can
| turn around and sell the reservation to anyone they want. The
| deposit is simply a cost of doing business for them.
|
| If the spot itself is actually worth $200 then the restaurant
| was forgoing that per seat and suddenly made $5000+ per day.
| No restaurant is going to pass up $1.8M of "free" revenue.
|
| Either the seats are worth the price or they're not.
| paxys wrote:
| It isn't free revenue. The deposit is applied to the final
| bill.
| koolba wrote:
| It's free revenue if it's not transferable.
| paxys wrote:
| If you mean restaurants need to start checking everyone's
| ID at the door to ensure the names on the reservations
| match then no, no one wants that.
| jrockway wrote:
| I'm fine with that. They should do it for concerts, too.
| A little bit of inconvenience is often better than paying
| market price; you can easily fill every restaurant in the
| city every night with people that make more money than
| me.
| codetrotter wrote:
| I don't have a drivers license. The only ID I have is my
| passport. I never carry my passport except when I know
| that I need it. I don't expect needing to bring my
| passport to go to a restaurant. Imagine I saved up money
| for a special restaurant visit, got the reservation and
| paid the $200 deposit but didn't notice I would have to
| bring my ID. I show up and.. the night is ruined and my
| $200 is lost because I can't prove my identity to the
| staff at the restaurant with a valid ID, since that one
| is still at home.
| kelnos wrote:
| Pretty sure you're in the minority here, to the point
| that a restaurant that felt they needed to implement this
| sort of thing could easily just not care about your
| business, and be fine. Most people (in the US, don't know
| where you're from) have at least a state-issued ID if
| they don't have a driver's license.
|
| Restaurants should of course disclose -- very clearly --
| at reservation time that the deposit and slot are not
| transferable, and that IDs will be checked at the door.
| If you choose to make that reservation, knowing that, and
| then show up without an ID, that's on you.
|
| > _... but didn't notice I would have to bring my ID_
|
| That would fall under the category of "that's on you".
|
| Regardless, I would hope that a restaurant would try to
| find another way to verify you are who you say you are,
| like perhaps asking for the credit/debit card you used to
| make the reservation, or even just asking to see
| _something_ on your person that looks vaguely difficult
| to forge and has your name on it. We 're not talking
| about a high-security situation here.
| ghaff wrote:
| I'm basically never a no show though I do sometimes cancel
| day-of if something comes up. I really hesitate to put down a
| deposit that I can't cancel because stuff does come up,
| especially when traveling.
| spyder wrote:
| One of the reason is mentioned in the article:
|
| _" When guests drop $100 or more just to walk in the door,
| "people have [the] wrong expectation when they come" he says
| because those expectations might be unreasonably high."_
| sva_ wrote:
| > I've never understood why restaurants themselves don't charge
| for prime-time reservations. If scalpers can do it, the
| restaurant can too.
|
| Some do charge something like $50 for the reservation. And if
| you can't come because there is a major blizzard in the city,
| tough luck ...
| wenc wrote:
| I think Tock tried to do dynamic pricing for tables. (Tock was
| founded by Nick Kokonas a former Chicago mercantile exchange
| trader and co owner of Chicago-based Alinea). Alinea also has
| other ways to prevent no shows like selling tickets etc.
|
| Tablz from Toronto does dynamic pricing.
| websap wrote:
| Well artists do charge differently for different areas of the
| venue. One could argue that prime time dinner is equivalent to
| watching Louis CK from the first few rows.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| I thought "Lunch Menu" and "Dinner Menu" were a way to
| reasonably implement precisely that.
|
| On the other hand if it gets more granular... there may be no
| winning. Budget-conscious will feel they're being priced-out,
| and the fancy-rich will not go to a restaurant that nickle-and-
| dimes / seems desperate for every last cent.
| mmanfrin wrote:
| I literally built this for OpenTable.
| fwungy wrote:
| Charge a reservation fee that is can be refunded as a credit that
| can only be used at the restaurant. It will be deducted from your
| bill or can be used at a later date. Real customers won't object
| to that.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| OpenTable does this. It's easy and a great suggestion.
| fvrghl wrote:
| That fee would just be passed from the scalper to the buyer of
| the reservation.
| fwungy wrote:
| Yes, but it makes it all the more complicated because the
| scalper has to figure out how to process the rebate, which
| opens up all sorts of issues.
|
| The scalper also has to front the money and eat the cost of
| unsold reservations.
| greiskul wrote:
| > Yes, but it makes it all the more complicated because the
| scalper has to figure out how to process the rebate, which
| opens up all sorts of issues.
|
| Not really. Restaurant charges 50 dollars for reservation,
| which gets added as credit at bill. Scalper pays the 50
| dollars and charges customer 60 dollars for the
| reservation. Customer gets the 50 dollars from the
| restaurant. Scalper keeps the 10 dollars of profit. No
| rebate is needed for the scalper, they already took the
| customer money with the deposit included.
|
| Now, for unsold reservations, yes, it helps by adding some
| risk to the scalper.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Lots of places do this. At Birdsong you pay for your table and
| then if you've ordered the pairing with the tasting menu and
| nothing optional it's a very "sit down, eat, visit the place,
| leave" experience. Honestly, makes the place feel luxury. Well,
| it is luxury and the food is great but it makes you feel royal.
| j-a-a-p wrote:
| > Real customers won't object to that.
|
| They will. Either by bouncing the reservation page and/or by
| giving a nasty review.
| paxys wrote:
| This is more of a barrier for legitimate customers than bots.
| I'm not paying a non-refundable deposit unless I'm absolutely
| sure my plans will not change (which is...never). A scalper
| doesn't care because they are anyways going to find a buyer and
| just pass the costs on to them.
| kristjansson wrote:
| Tock and Resy do this as either fully-prepaid, deposit, or
| card-on-file. The latter two only kick in for reservations
| canceling less than x hours in advance; policies vary the
| other.
| gsa wrote:
| This is now fairly common where I live (Amsterdam) and since
| COVID I notice it a lot more. Many restaurants have a
| reservation fee of EUR10 or EUR20, sometimes even more. It's
| flexible enough that you can reschedule till 8 or 12 hours
| before the reservation and it's deducted as part of the bill.
| If you are a no show, you forfeit the deposit. Definitely
| creates a barrier for scalpers because they would have to buy
| seats and swallow the loss if they can't sell it but if the
| restaurant is popular enough, then it can still work in the
| scalper's favour.
| MrThoughtful wrote:
| Are there others like me, who _never_ reserve a table at a
| restaurant?
|
| I find it much more fun to meet friends at a restaurant without a
| reservation. Less obligation to follow through. If one of us has
| a last minute idea to do something else, we go with the flow. If
| none of the available tables are to our liking, we go with the
| flow and go elsewhere. If there is no available table, we go with
| the flow and go elsewhere. So much more serendipity and freedom.
|
| One time, we arrived at a restaurant and were told that there is
| no available table. Since I just read in a book that you usually
| can bribe the waiter, I jumped over my shadow, said "Maybe we can
| wait a few minutes and see if something becomes available?" and
| put a EUR20 note into the hand of the waiter. Pointed at the best
| table at the window and said "That one would be perfect of
| course". 5 minutes later, we were sitting at the table at the
| window. I was a nerve wreck and felt like a king :)
| yieldcrv wrote:
| Good tip about bribing the host, never tried that
|
| I would say you are missing out on very good experiences by
| doing noncommittal things with noncommittal friends
| MrThoughtful wrote:
| That could very well be.
|
| On the other hand, I feel like others are missing out on
| those moments where one of my friends calls and says "Hey I'm
| in this and that part of the city and I'm hungry. What do you
| do?". And I'm like "I'm sitting in a cafe in that other part,
| drinking coffee, tinkering on my laptop. How about we meet in
| 30 minutes in this and that restaurant?". And they are like
| "Deal. I also have my laptop with me. Have you seen the new
| OpenAI API? I just cobbled something together with it that I
| would like to show you.".
|
| Most people seem too entangled in job and family for this.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| people that reserve at restaurants also do what you just
| described
|
| this has nothing to do with the crowd that is entangled in
| job and family?
| pizzalife wrote:
| Please don't whip out your laptop in a restaurant.
| MrThoughtful wrote:
| Restaurants are great places of adventure where very
| different types of people come together. Please don't
| harm these oasis of diversity by telling people what to
| do :) It would make the world such a boring place.
|
| I think visiting restaurants to meet with interesting
| people is one of the great joys in life. And when
| interesting people meet, there almost always comes up
| something to try out or look up online.
|
| It feels we are so near to the singularity, that every
| moment is like a wild ride.
|
| I meet people in restaurants a couple of days per week.
| Only once did a waiter complain about the laptop on the
| table. I just never went to that restaurant again.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| I don't think your experience is invalid, you are just
| missing out on other experiences that accomplish the same
| things you like about your disruptive laptop dependent
| approach for the sake of AI and machines when the humans
| have so much infrastructure catering exclusively to us...
| behind reservations
| Animats wrote:
| That's what Starbucks used to be for, before they removed
| the tables and chairs.
| well_actulily wrote:
| There are types of restaurants where reservations are
| essentially, if not literally--mandatory. And maybe this
| doesn't appeal to you, but I can't imagine you'll have many
| chances to dine at a three Michelin star restaurant with this
| kind of approach.
| MrThoughtful wrote:
| What makes you visit a Michelin star restaurant?
|
| When the first startup I founded took off, I tried some of
| the more expensive restaurants in my town. I kinda liked the
| experience. But after a short while, it tapered off and I do
| not get any more out of it than from visiting a EUR10/meal
| restaurant now. So I almost never go to fancy restaurants
| these days. There is nothing that draws me there.
|
| Really curious to hear what those restaurants give you that a
| cheap restaurant does not.
| well_actulily wrote:
| I completely understand where you're coming from, and I
| agree that the appeal of fancy restaurants can wane over
| time. I've definitely been burned by the odd over-hyped
| spot or two. However, for me, a lot of these restaurants
| are like theater. They combine unique ingredients, creative
| preparations, exceptional service, and the chance to
| witness culinary professionals at the height of their
| profession. It's the immersive experience and the
| creativity behind the meal that keeps me drawn to them,
| even though I would probably prefer a cheaper, more
| familiar meal most nights.
| IKantRead wrote:
| Expensive restaurants, fancy restaurants, and 3-star
| Michelin restaurants are not the same things.
|
| I've eaten at a few 3-star Michelin restaurants and the
| experience at each was worth living imho. 3-star means not
| only is the food world class, but the service is as well. I
| still remember fondly each thing I ate, and just as
| importantly, the interactions I had with the chefs
| throughout the evening.
|
| It happens to be the case the excellent food and service
| does come at a price, so Michelin 3-star places tend to be
| expensive. Likewise people tend to dress up when they spend
| a lot so they tend to be "fancy", but those are things that
| happen as an artifact of the quality of experience they
| provide.
|
| I've been to plenty of places that are expensive and very
| "meh", and I absolutely _loathe_ "fancy" restaurants that
| pretend they are offering you some privileged experience
| (which is usually a laughable facsimile of the experience
| of real high-end dining).
|
| I'll add that there are also diminishing returns: The
| experience of sitting at the counter of at Masa, with only
| two other couples why your personal chef hands you some of
| the best sushi in the world is incredible, but there are
| other omakase places in NYC that offer a nearly equally
| amazing experience (especially if you go on a quiet Tuesday
| night) for 1/3 the price, but I'm very glad I had that
| counter experience at Masa.
| lbotos wrote:
| Michelin actually says service does not factor in to
| their star rating.
|
| I've eaten across the stars and had the same
| misconception when we ate at 2-Star Tim Raue Wild in
| Berlin and were surprised at the poor service.
| butlike wrote:
| I did it once. Went to Alinea in Chicago. $400/person
| before wine pairing to give you a gist of the scale. At
| that level the experience transcends the food. It's all-
| encompassing. You don't worry about the valet, the
| restaurant has that covered. You don't worry about your
| coats; they take them for you. You don't get a jacket
| ticket.
|
| It almost feels like the servers have ESP. They get you a
| new napkin, or fork before you even raise your finger (but
| not after you thought about asking). The food is timed
| perfectly. Once everyone finishes the course, the next
| course comes. If there's a conversation about the previous
| course, the next one miraculously waits until that
| conversation dies down.
|
| The food is ordered in a way to activate taste buds. It's
| not just from "lighter fare" to "heavier fare."
| Salty/sweet, temperature play, texture play; it's all on
| the table and masterfully executed. There's introspective
| dishes served in one course, and fun dishes (like candied
| balloons) in the next.
|
| The food itself is nutrient-complete, so while the portions
| are ostensibly small, you leave satisfied, and each course
| builds the hype. There's never a dish that ends up making
| the last feel "smaller."
|
| You can sit for as long as you want, then when the group
| decides it's time to leave, the restaurant already has your
| jackets ready, the car is ready, and everything is in it's
| right spot. There's no mix ups.
|
| The crispness of the experience made me realize food can be
| more than just a meal, but ultimately it's hard to define
| without trying it.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| > _Really curious to hear what those restaurants give you
| that a cheap restaurant does not._
|
| ... the food is objectively better?
|
| ... the ambiance is objectively superior?
|
| ... the staff is objectively superior?
|
| No-one wants to eat a 14 course tasting menu every night,
| but I don't buy the idea that a $10 restaurant is going to
| be a comparable experience.
| TillE wrote:
| 99% of people going to restaurants do not care about the
| ambience or over-the-top service.
|
| I have absolutely had the experience of an inexpensive
| local seafood restaurant on Long Island making much
| better food than an upscale place in Manhattan, for
| example.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| That's ok. Others do.
|
| Especially with things like seafood and steak. Honestly,
| I can make a better steak than any restaurant at home. I
| can shuck oysters and have fun. And as you said, with
| seafood in particular, little places in good locations
| often have better food!
|
| But the experience of the fancy restaurant has it's value
| as well.
| pixl97 wrote:
| Just because it's upscale doesn't mean it's good, and
| just because it's cheap doesn't mean it's bad, but there
| is typically a very strong correlation.
|
| In upscale places that are bad go out of business, unless
| their primary means of gathering business isn't food, but
| instead is location/proximity to a source of near captive
| audiences.
| jmye wrote:
| > 99% of people [...]
|
| Sure, McDonalds has sold like, a trillion hamburgers and
| a local started restaurant does like 100 covers a night.
| That doesn't mean that they aren't packed and that the
| reservations don't go instantly, as soon as they're
| available.
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| > _99% of people going to restaurants do not care about
| the ambience or over-the-top service._
|
| 99% of people might not think think the difference is
| _worth it_ ; but I just don't accept the idea that 99% of
| people wouldn't think that the service and ambiance at
| Per Se is better than Olive Garden.
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| I would replace "objectively" with "typically".
|
| Michelin stars mean that a restaurant has been vetted by
| presumed skilled experts.
|
| This means that you're going to have on average a better
| experience, but that you'll pay more for the experience
| you get (since they're in more demand). Finding a
| restaurant of similar quality without the stars will take
| more digging, but will likely give you better value.
| pixl97 wrote:
| Just to adding on, when you get into Michelin star quality,
| the ingredients out of this world.
|
| I'm not big into the show of it all, and I really enjoy
| cooking myself, but I can't even come close to the quality
| on a single dish they produced, much less the 5 - 10 small
| dishes you are typically presented. If you love food like I
| do, you'll generally love the food experience on
| presentation and taste alone. The head chefs are typically
| artists when it comes to this stuff, they spend a lot of
| time and effort coming up with both unique and enjoyable
| dishes. It is not catered in any way to mass production and
| speed of service like you see in the typical restaurant.
|
| This said, if you don't enjoy food, or you don't enjoy
| special experiences you're not going to get much out of it.
|
| https://www.fearlesscaptivations.com/pasta-bar-austin/ is
| an example of someones experience of the last place like
| this I ate at.
| hypeatei wrote:
| > Are there others like me, who never reserve a table at a
| restaurant?
|
| Yeah, I don't really like needing a reservation or appointment
| for everything; for specific events like birthdays or
| graduations it's probably good to make one, though.
| JohnFen wrote:
| I always make a reservation, because it really sucks to show up
| and not be able to be seated in time to eat while still doing
| something else that evening.
|
| There are a few restaurants in my city that don't take
| reservations at all. I've given up on going to them because the
| wait for a table is always at least an hour long, and you can't
| plan any other activities around it.
| buzzy_hacker wrote:
| In New York, reservations are often necessary. A lot of
| restaurants don't do walk-ins.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Nah, New York is a place where you generally don't need a
| reservation. If you want to go to a specific place,
| especially one you just read about, sure. If you just want
| dinner, it's hard to walk a few blocks in any direction
| without finding a restaurant with an open table though.
|
| You're also discounting the many fine places, particularly
| downtown, that explicitly don't take reservations.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| That doesn't fly as much as it used to. Our favorite places
| where I live mostly require a reservation; they literally stay
| pretty well booked. We know the owners (two joints, same
| ownership), and ONCE or TWICE we called him for help on a
| special occasion. Sometimes he can help. But that's not a card
| you want to play often (not in the least b/c, if you get a
| table because you're friends with the owner, my personal ethics
| dictate a fairly significant spend).
| ulizzle wrote:
| Most people are like you and me who would never even dream of
| going anywhere where a reservation is required. Those folks
| that do either have a hobby or too much time and money, which
| is equally rare and equally annoying
|
| Personally, like the vast majority of us, I think anyone who
| calls in ahead to a restaurant is totally lame and most likely
| an NPC, but it does depend on where you are and the current
| culture around you
| NeoTar wrote:
| Then I guess I am lame.
|
| Most of the time I am meeting friends to hang-out and we will
| spontaneously find somewhere to eat. I really enjoy that.
|
| Occasionally I am hanging out with friends from out-of-town,
| or friends with kids who don't get out as often. Then it's
| convenient to have somewhere booked so we don't end up having
| to eat at a not-so-great place and 'spoil' their visit, or
| their one evening seeing friends that month.
|
| Sometimes I want to hang out with a big group. Try finding a
| place which can spontaneously accommodate twelve people.
| ulizzle wrote:
| Well, you think I'm lame too, so don't get offended. As I
| said, the opinion depends on the culture around you.
|
| Some people have the time and money to plan ahead, some
| don't. It's really all very random
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| I had a friend that tried that with $100 and we never got a
| seat. He also never got his money back.
| runarb wrote:
| https://archive.is/pVN3I
| forthwall wrote:
| I wonder if this can be resolved with:
|
| * Real names on restaurant, just verify their ID. Then ban them
| from opentable/resy (might be harsh, but will disincentivize
| behavior)
|
| * No transferring reservations, if rez is cancelled, hold the rez
| and release at a random time later
|
| I know for ticketmaster, they have no incentive to put these
| guards up because they take a % cut for every resale, but for
| these apps; I think you can put some reasonable defenses,
| especially since most of the restaurants that face these issues
| have bills of a few hundred dollars anyway.
| justinlkarr wrote:
| As other commenters have shared, there are big disincentives
| for restaurants to turn people away at the door - they don't
| get paid, and it is negative experience for both sides (with
| commensurate brand effects).
|
| Bulk-generating accounts -- email addresses, phone numbers and
| even credit card numbers -- is a solved problem for resellers.
|
| In New York State, it is illegal to restrict transfer of
| tickets. Expect the same for reservations as this battle
| advances.
| justinlkarr wrote:
| From your friends in event ticketing: welcome to the struggle,
| and we're sorry.
|
| I hope Resy figures this out, and I hope we're able to learn from
| (or license) their solution.
|
| I expect their approach will look similar to our path: fight the
| secondary market with every legal tool, work with them when you
| can't, improve pricing algorithms to reduce arbitrage
| opportunity.
|
| Customers on both sides of their market will probably be
| frustrated with each effort. They want to cook and eat, not "be
| in a marketplace". They will probably blame Resy.
|
| The secondary market will probably engage legislative resources,
| attempting to tailor the law to protect their practices. They
| will probably do this "in the interest of diners". It will
| probably become illegal to restrict transfer of reservations,
| among other things.
|
| Good luck y'all. Reach out if you need support. Love, Broadway
| pradn wrote:
| There's an app called Dorsia, which lets you purchase seats at
| sought-after restaurants. The purchase is usually in the form of
| a per-seat minimum spend. They start at $75 per seat, but some go
| into the hundreds. This app solves a few problems at once:
| customers get to buy their way out of the seat-scouting process
| (keenly watching the apps for open reservations, walking in and
| putting their name on the waitlist, bribing the host, knowing
| someone with pull, etc), restaurants guarantee some of their
| seats go to high-spending clients (you could walk out with
| spending $35 at a good number of these spots), and companies have
| something to offer to their customers as a perk - Dorsia
| membership (the fancy gym chain Equinox gives their customers
| Dorsia access, for example). None of this is democratic, but
| that's the nature of luxury.
|
| https://www.dorsia.com/
| renewiltord wrote:
| That's pretty cool. If it were an auction it could do price
| discovery even better.
| well_actulily wrote:
| Jesus. Dorsia? On a Friday night?
| gosub100 wrote:
| I wondered about this, or Big Kahuna Burger. Can someone
| trademark the brand if the brand appeared in the movie first?
| SCUSKU wrote:
| Great movie, never gets old
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > None of this is democratic, but that's the nature of luxury.
|
| What does democracy have to do with allocating a scarce
| resource?
| kuschku wrote:
| Why should a rich person be able to experience luxury more
| often than a poor person? Wouldn't it be more fair to
| allocate the seats randomly between all people that'd like to
| be there?
|
| Allocating a scare resource so that some people can use it
| multiple times while others can never use it isn't exactly
| democratic.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Democracy is a system of governance, attempting to use
| votes to provide equal representation to people. The
| mechanism for allocating resources is a different topic, as
| is determining what is and is not "fair".
|
| >Why should a rich person be able to experience luxury more
| often than a poor person?
|
| Because that is the benefit of being rich. Perhaps this
| question is better phrased as "Why should there be a
| wealth/income gap greater than <$x>?"
| jmye wrote:
| Why should everyone have perfectly equal access to non-
| necessities? What, specifically, is "democratic" about
| making sure poor people can also get reservations at
| restaurants? Should everything in limited quantity be given
| away in a pure lottery?
| vasdae wrote:
| >Why should a rich person be able to experience luxury more
| often than a poor person?
|
| Why would you work harder to get rich if you don't get
| anything for it?
| YetAnotherNick wrote:
| Why are linkedin posts spreading everywhere.
|
| Why does a rich person only has access to any asset you are
| selling. Could I get it for free?
| jareklupinski wrote:
| every time i heard about this app, i thought it was a prank,
| because i saw the movie
| pradn wrote:
| Ok wow, I didn't know the name comes from American Psycho!
| paxys wrote:
| Dorsia is fine for what it is, but doesn't really solve the
| problem at hand. High rollers can always find a reservation
| regardless of scarcity, and similar services like Amex
| Concierge have existed for a long time now. Restaurants however
| also have to care about the other 99% of their clientele.
| grumple wrote:
| High end restaurants in my city and a few European cities I've
| been to recently required reservations with payment up front. At
| worst, the restaurant still gets the money if someone (like a bot
| account) no shows. This would be a pretty high risk endeavor to
| use a bot to reserve at these restaurants.
|
| Maybe restaurants should go back to requiring reservations over
| the phone or in person. Or require an ID to match the name on the
| reservation.
| kristjansson wrote:
| Starts to look like the venue-artist-scalper relationship. The
| provider gets to hand off some of the risk in exchange for the
| peaks of profit.
| jrockway wrote:
| So, there are a lot of comments saying that reservations should
| charge an up-front fee and apply that to the food, but I don't
| think that will work. First off, plenty of restaurants in New
| York do that and the problem persists. The underlying problem is
| that with scalpers buying reservations, they are proving that the
| market will bear a higher price. People that buy scalped
| reservations are paying the scalper a fee which WILL NOT be
| applied to their bill. That means the restaurant is
| undercharging.
|
| The solution to this problem is to handle restaurant reservations
| like airline reservations. They check your ID before you can
| board the plane. No reason that restaurants can't do the same.
| People would be mad, of course, but that's the only way you can
| prevent a secondary market from setting the price. (They should
| do this for concert tickets and things like that as well. Artists
| intentionally sell tickets below market price so that their fans
| don't get mad at them, but economics simply doesn't all this to
| exist; someone will always step in to take the profit that you
| left on the table. By requiring ID, you can prevent the market
| from stepping in, because the pool of buyers goes down; only
| people that can get a government ID with your name on it can buy
| your ticket on the secondary market. John Smith is probably out
| of luck, but everyone else is fin.)
|
| Overall, I don't think the restaurants have a particularly strong
| incentive to solve this problem. At the end of the day, they are
| made or broken based on filling up their tables. They do fill all
| their tables with the current system. So the next remaining
| hurdle is increasing "fairness". There isn't a way to do this
| without annoying someone. If they check IDs, someone will be mad
| that they had their ID checked. If they charge an entrance fee
| (i.e. a cost for the reservation that isn't applied to your
| meal), then someone is going to be mad. (The staff will also
| probably be mad; if you pay $100 for your seat, that's $100 less
| to tip with.) At the end of the day, I think charging market
| price on everything is the most fair. If people will pay $100
| just to get in the door, they should take the $100. I would
| definitely pay it for special occasions; you can do it 6 times a
| year and still pay less than the annual fee on your Amex Plat
| card!
| taurusnoises wrote:
| Seems to me the real fix is to take reservations over the
| phone, not rely on apps and intermediaries to handle stuff that
| can easily be handled by humans, and move on.
| jrockway wrote:
| I'm not sure that makes sense. You now have to pay someone to
| maintain a reservations book and be available at any time to
| receive the phone call. Meanwhile, the reservation companies
| can just have ChatGPT make the phone call for you; do you
| think that restaurant employees can administer a Turing test
| or that ordinary customers could pass a Turing test?
|
| Meanwhile, anyone that cares about this can still delegate it
| to a human. Call the Amex concierge, "can you get me into
| FooBar at around 7PM any night next week" and they take care
| of it. The phone adds no fairness; it opens up a way for
| middlemen to offer a service that you pay for but that the
| restaurant never sees.
|
| While maybe a rare situation, software to handle reservations
| is a great idea. You instantly save one employee's worth of
| work for a tiny amount of money.
|
| The other option is to only take walk-ins, but then you risk
| having empty tables when people are tired of waiting in line.
| I am sure many places have tried walk-in only, only to be
| disappointed about not making enough money. Restaurants like
| reservations.
| kelnos wrote:
| Online reservations are _so_ much better than phone
| reservations, both for the restaurant and customer.
|
| As a customer, I see exactly what all my options are,
| immediately, and can easily switch days to see what else is
| available. Needing to manually tell a human what I'm looking
| for (which I might not even know yet, without seeing all the
| options), and have them read something off a screen or book
| to me, is a waste of time.
|
| And for the restaurants, they don't have to pay someone to
| answer the reservations phone number when they're not open.
| And they don't have to distract staff from their hospitality
| duties when the restaurant _is_ open. Also I 'm sure all of
| us have called a restaurant while they're busy, and have had
| to repeat what we've said to busy, overworked restaurant
| staff member who can barely hear us on the phone over the din
| of the restaurant behind them.
| justinlkarr wrote:
| _Overall, I don 't think the restaurants have a particularly
| strong incentive to solve this problem._
|
| This is the identical to early perspective on the secondary
| market in event ticketing: a sale is a sale, our work is done.
|
| _That means the restaurant is undercharging._
|
| Then you realize how much money you are losing to arbitrage and
| the work begins.
|
| A couple of decades later, you have variable pricing, dynamic
| pricing, distribution to expedia, official secondary market
| partnerships, conferences, niche-y saas products, competing
| enterprise products, revenue managers, specialized masters'
| degrees, papers at INFORMs, revenue directors, VPs of sales and
| revenue,
|
| and a bunch of people who just want to cook and eat
| hn72774 wrote:
| > It also sparked the idea of adding the admission charge to the
| food bill, so customers would not be asked for money at the door.
| (In his early years, Dimitriou had encountered profound
| resistance to a cover charge and he often operated Jazz Alley
| without one, feeling it set the wrong tone for the kind of fine
| dining establishment he was trying to create.) It worked, and
| music lovers in general began to view the club as an upscale
| destination for special occasions. By 2015, the Alley was taking
| in more than $3 million in admissions.
|
| This is about Jazz Alley, in Seattle WA.
|
| https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/music/how-seattle...
| alexpotato wrote:
| I remember a popular restaurant in NYC in the late 2000's had a
| "in person request for reservation only" policy.
|
| The thought was that if you lived in the neighborhood, you would
| walk down to the restaurant around 4pm, make your reservation, go
| home and then come back for dinner.
|
| In practice, this meant that if you wanted a spontaneous "let's
| go eat there" type of evening and you didn't live in the
| neighborhood, you wouldn't be eating dinner till after midnight.
| mettamage wrote:
| Wait, is this even legal? I made a bot one time for a group of
| people I know to go to Noma. They invited me to come with them
| out of gratitude. They told me I could resell that. Other than
| personally finding it unethical, I also thought it'd be illegal
| to do so.
|
| In any case, writing such a bot for a one time use-case (and just
| one reservation of which I was a part of) was fun!
| tlonny wrote:
| On the subject of scalping, I've never understood why tickets
| can't be bound to a particular identity. I.e. if you buy tickets
| as "John Smith", only someone who can prove they are "John Smith"
| is let through the door.
|
| In my head, this completely decapitates scalping as a business.
| Why can't this also be applied in other sectors (i.e. restaurant
| reservations)
| mmanfrin wrote:
| I worked at OpenTable and this was a problem we also encountered,
| and it was one of my own projects that was an attempt to combat
| this. This is one of those posts where I feel like I might
| actually be an expert but I also feel I can't really talk about
| specifics of projects for fomer employers :(
| standardUser wrote:
| I don't dine at places expensive enough to have encountered this
| issue. But I do like to dine frequently at high-demand
| restaurants. The issue I've noticed in NY is that the online
| reservation platforms have made it trivial for restaurants to
| require a credit card and charge massive cancellation fees. I've
| seen mid-range places with $50 fees _per person_ if the
| reservation is cancelled with less than 24 hours notice.
|
| The solution to the above shitshow is the same as the solution to
| these scalpers. The telephone. Few places will collect your
| credit card information over the phone for a reservation. And
| places dealing with scalpers can take names and inform guests
| that they will need to present ID on arrival. Not an entirely
| frictionless solution, but I think most people won't mind showing
| their ID if they are given advanced notice.
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