[HN Gopher] After luring customers with low prices, Amazon stuff...
___________________________________________________________________
After luring customers with low prices, Amazon stuffs Fire TVs with
ads
Author : MBCook
Score : 280 points
Date : 2023-11-08 18:35 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| smoldesu wrote:
| Amazon's FireTV experience is pretty bad. Even as someone who
| pays for Prime, it's hard to escape the "ad carousel" interface
| when you just want to watch TV.
|
| _That being said_ , I still use mine regularly for one reason;
| sideloading. You can install YouTube clients with SponsorBlock
| and ad-skipping built in. You can download Steam's streaming
| client and connect a controller, or load up Kodi with SFTP
| streaming from your local network. The quality of third-party
| apps is so good that I just ignore the FireTV experience as a
| whole and skip straight to the apps.
|
| Hopefully someone makes/has made a launcher app that bypasses
| Amazon's stuff. The underlying hardware is perfect for my needs;
| the first-party software is the crutch.
|
| Edit: prayers answered? https://gitlab.com/flauncher/flauncher
| jsight wrote:
| Yeah, tbh, the fact that they allow side loading makes up for
| this, IMO. I still wouldn't necessarily buy one. I've found
| that I like the Google TV ecosystem a little better.
|
| But being able to sideloaded whenever needed makes it much
| better to me than some of the "less intrusive" options.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > Even as someone who pays for Prime, it's hard to escape the
| "ad carousel" interface when you just want to watch TV.
|
| I've recently (last week-ish) started to get the ads, too (I'm
| in France). But they don't seem to have made their way in the
| actual Prime Video app. I actually always used the "app"
| because I much preferred the organization.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Here in Spain they've been in there for 2 years. Not even
| their shows, but for chocolates, perfumes etc
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Which YouTube client do you use if I may ask?
| smoldesu wrote:
| This is the one I'd prefer, if hypothetically I did such a
| thing :) https://github.com/yuliskov/SmartTube
| RajT88 wrote:
| My wife and I bought a Fire TV for a particular use case:
|
| - The hot tub room in the winter
|
| - The outdoor patio in the summer
|
| It was so cheap, we don't mind the ads on the home screen. If it
| dies from the moisture, we'll just buy another one. The apps are
| the key anyways, as I use a few totally ad-free apps to stream
| stuff:
|
| - JellyFin
|
| - VLC
|
| - HDHomeRun (for my antenna on the roof)
|
| PlutoTV is not ad-free, but has so much amazing shit, I don't
| mind it much.
|
| Meanwhile, the big LG OLED we bought, I have been on a crusade to
| neuter all the ads without causing issues with downloading
| apps/updates/streaming. The RootMyTV exploit no longer works:
|
| https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io
|
| I have found blocking the IP of the local Akamai peer works for
| blocking some ads and the OS update check, but at the cost of
| other things which also use the CDN. It seems to use internal
| DNS, which complicates things.
| edhelas wrote:
| I love how you think that TV can be throw away when used <3
|
| You're like a Environmental Hero to me.
| RajT88 wrote:
| You'll notice I did not mention what we do with it when done
| with it.
|
| Point of fact, we use the (many, free) electronics recycling
| programs available to us in our area.
|
| Thanks for making dumb and uncharitable assumptions.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Recycling the TV is better than not doing it, but not
| wasting it is even better for the environment.
| RajT88 wrote:
| You'll be happy to know we're not wasting it. We use that
| TV frequently.
| speedgoose wrote:
| I understand, but when you describe your TV as a cheap
| consumable not worth being careful with, be prepared to
| trigger some emotional reactions with people who are
| concerned about the environment.
| graphe wrote:
| It is, because that's what it is. It's not a luxury item,
| it's like the dull butter knife you use first.
| rurp wrote:
| You're being overly confrontational over a very minor
| issue. There are much more effective ways to advocate for
| the environment.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Less than 1/5th of e-waste is actually recycled, and most
| of it ends up in places with little or no environmental
| regulation or health and safety protections for workers.
|
| And that's the stuff that makes it into the e-waste stream.
| Most of it just gets tossed in the garbage with everything
| else.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVnu0doouJI
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axYKPbr9_MA
| graphe wrote:
| Realistically what would you recycle them into? Art
| pieces and using old components for your legacy or simple
| electronics for reuse and then what? Besides maybe
| melting it for the trace amounts of metal, I don't see
| any use for recycled electronics.
| kxrm wrote:
| > It seems to use internal DNS, which complicates things.
|
| I have the same TVs I resolved this with my router utilizing a
| firewall rule that redirects all udp port 53 traffic back to my
| pihole.
| RajT88 wrote:
| See - that would work if our TV was sending out DNS requests.
| It doesn't though!
|
| Like, it seems like it has its own _truly internal_ DNS
| resolver, which gets updated I presume via OS updates.
| hackernudes wrote:
| It could be doing dns over https (DoH).
| whalesalad wrote:
| yeah probably doing this, or using a secure vpn/tunnel or
| both.
| RajT88 wrote:
| I don't recall seeing HTTP traffic in the trace during TV
| startup and update check, so it's got to be a tunnel or
| internal.
|
| I'd read reports of some smart TV's having internal
| resolvers, hence my guess at that.
|
| I'll have to take another look though. If there's a DoH
| host I could block, that'd be nice.
| kxrm wrote:
| Interesting, I wonder if newer OS updates are now using
| DoH. It's sad that I have to block upgrades for my TVs
| firmware for what could resolve potential security issues
| simply to have control over how my TV behaves on my
| network. This just re-enforces that I should continue to
| not let my TV upgrade it's firmware and continue to not let
| it access anything on the internet directly.
| graphe wrote:
| What security problems are you worried about? I never
| cared for security, there's no money they can get or
| data, and if there's someone who wants to hack my network
| with it, good luck lol itll be easier to phish anyway.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Yup I tried this too. Not working. Must be using DoH. Or
| some proprietary resolver.
| genericacct wrote:
| recently realized you cant even start vlc if the fire cant
| connect to the internet. Bummer if your link is down
| wkat4242 wrote:
| That's ridiculously stupid yes. Came across this too when my
| fibre was down.
| grishka wrote:
| Does it run Android? If so, you can try replacing the launcher
| with a user-friendly one.
| hardcopy wrote:
| It's really quite easy (for the average HN reader) to do this
| too, no cables required. I used FLauncher and followed this
| guide.
| https://gitlab.com/flauncher/flauncher#method-2-disable-
| the-...
| zumzumzum wrote:
| Have you found a way to block ads while preserving the voice
| recognition feature? I have a C1 and a C2 on which I have
| successfully blocked all ads, but I can no longer use voice
| recognition for things like searching. It's a fair trade, but I
| wish I could have both.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Well don't worry. You buy a premium "lifestyle tv" like a Samsung
| Frame, and the moment you connect it to the internet, it too
| slams every user interface panel full of advertising. This amazon
| is shit egregious, but par for the course. They're hardly the
| only ones. TVs are enshittified pretty badly.
|
| Thankfully my Samsung forgot those ads after wiping it to factory
| defaults. So now it is only connected to the apple tv, and not
| the rest of the internet. No network at all, never, seems to be
| the only winning move right now.
| ska wrote:
| I think this is the real value prop of the Apple TV now for
| many people, particular non technical types or those who just
| don't want to monkey with networking etc. Usable interface and
| isolates your TV from the network.
|
| I met someone doing something similar with a PS5 but that
| seemed awkward.
| aldanor wrote:
| Why connect any tv to internet?
| sneak wrote:
| Many TVs now have dark patterns during setup that suggest
| initial configuration is impossible without network access. I
| recently set up a TV that required I scroll to the very
| bottom of the list of visible Wi-Fi networks to skip the
| network setup.
| aldanor wrote:
| That's pretty shady indeed. But I guess that comes from how
| the majority of consumers use those tvs, not discerning the
| screen itself from software that provides content access.
| mulmen wrote:
| To access content.
| aldanor wrote:
| Why can't you access it from any of the tv boxes (ie Apple
| TV or any other) and just use the TV itself as one big
| screen, a bunch of pixels and nothing else?
| mulmen wrote:
| It's built into the TV. Why buy an extra box that also
| shows ads?
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Yes, exactly. Most people (perhaps not representative of
| the audience here) do not want extra boxes, wires, steps,
| or setup. They _like_ that it 's all built into the TV.
| Ads are just a fact of life to them, they don't really
| even register as a concern.
| busterarm wrote:
| I just bought a Bravia A95L and even though it's gorgeous, I
| see more advertising then back when I just had cable -- 20
| years ago. I wasn't planning to offload everything to an HTPC
| when I bought this, but that's certainly my next move.
|
| And I don't know why Google TV has it in for PLEX but it buries
| it all the way at the end of my apps list so that I have to
| press like 20 buttons just to use it.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I've heard so many of these stories about Samsung that they are
| automatically rejected whenever I am buying consumer goods.
| whalesalad wrote:
| The trick is to never give your TV access to the internet and to
| pair it with an Apple TV. If you buy a TV and it won't even boot
| or work without an internet connection - return it and get a
| different one.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| That works fine with a TV. I bought one knowing that the
| "smart" features weren't all that great. I tried connecting it
| to the internet, and it felt more sluggish, although it's a
| brand new 2023 model. I was able to reset it to factory
| defaults and it's working well enough for what I bought it for
| (the image is very good, at least for my needs). For reference,
| it's a TCL with Google TV.
|
| But the Fire TV TFA talks about... well, the whole point of the
| thing is to stream internet content. So not connecting it to
| the internet kinda defeats 90% of the thing's purpose.
| EricE wrote:
| you can still stream stuff - just use something else and just
| leverage it as a cheap display.
|
| Unless it won't work if not connected to the internet
| (wouldn't put it past them).
|
| I bought my Xbox mainly because it was the best/cheapest
| option for a 4K bluray player. I think I've loaded a game on
| it a handful of times at best, but watched lots of movies and
| other content with it. Thanks gamers for subsidizing a great
| BR player!
| bombcar wrote:
| The key is to verify that the TV will return to just
| showing "HDMI 1" or whatever after power off.
|
| Because the smart TVs have a history of returning to
| whatever ads they want to show after power on.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| My particular TV, if it's never been connected to the
| internet, will not show any ads. It will show a
| notification that it isn't connected to the internet when
| you turn it on, but it will work fine otherwise. It'll
| even switch to the correct video input if you power it on
| through that port, say through a firetv stick. Otherwise,
| there's a setting for power on behaviour: 1. go to home
| screen 2. Go to last used input.
| buildbot wrote:
| Even better, if you can avoid accepting the ToS for the
| apps, they don't even start. My Samsung TV is so snappy
| now because I reset it and ignore the accept ToS button
| :)
| bozhark wrote:
| Makes sense.
|
| Telemetry takes packets out of your bandwidth.
|
| These boxes have constant calls so... yeah free that
| space up
| buildbot wrote:
| This is step beyond that, none of the crappy Tizen apps
| or anything start at all. The TV never gets network
| access of course :)
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| The FireTV is not an actual television set. It's the
| "something else" that you use to stream content to a screen
| with no internet connection.
| ArchOversight wrote:
| No, in this case it is actually a full size TV that has
| the same OS as the FireTV stick.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| My bad, I only quickly skimmed TFA, didn't think these
| were actual TVs since they're not available where I live
| last time I checked.
| Retric wrote:
| The fire stick is the pure streaming dongle, a Fire TV is an
| actual TV which includes that dongle built in and sold at a
| discount.
|
| So, buying a cheap Amazon fire TV and not connecting it to
| the internet is a reasonable choice for a cheap 'dumb' TV.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| There's also the "Fire TV" which is a streaming box and not
| a stick, sold from 2015 to 2022, which doesn't help the
| confusion in the naming.
| sneak wrote:
| Apple TVs in the default configuration show large video ads for
| Apple stuff in the hero unit on the homescreen, same as Amazon
| is being accused of doing in TFA.
| EricE wrote:
| If only defaults could be changed :p
| brk wrote:
| They do? I have not seen that on any of mine. We don't spend
| much time on the Home Screen though.
| rnicholus wrote:
| owned an apple tv for many years (many models) and i've never
| seen this
| riversflow wrote:
| One of my favorite parts of AppleTV is that it has those
| beautiful screensavers.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I would pay for more aerials. I don't understand why they
| are limited to so few, and if I could eliminate
| N.Y.C./London/Hong Kong/SF/other major cities, and get some
| lesser seen areas, that would be awesome.
| sneak wrote:
| It's quite difficult to get permission to fly a drone
| over an active LAX (to say nothing of Times Square or
| London).
|
| The fact that they got to do this (and show it off via
| screensaver) is one of my favorite "we have unlimited
| money and power" Apple flexes.
|
| The amount of time, money, and planning to produce these
| is staggering. They're slow motion, probably shot in 8K,
| and are drone shots with expensive cinema lenses. There
| is probably a team of 1-3 people dedicated simply to the
| paperwork and approvals and flight planning, not counting
| cinematography/DP and postproduction.
|
| I would love a reddit-style Q&A with Apple's internal
| filmmaking team.
|
| They're not aerial, but they're beautiful paid apps:
| search "magic window" on the ATV app store. They have a
| few timelapse video apps that I love to leave playing on
| my ATVs.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Thanks for the suggestion!
| MBCook wrote:
| They add a few every big release. I agree I'd love more.
| whartung wrote:
| When we switched to the 4 from the 3, the 3 used to have a
| "photos of the day" screensaver, filled with an ever
| changing, curated selection of photos.
|
| For whatever reason, they dropped that in the 4. All of the
| screensavers (as far as I can tell) are static now, which
| is kind of a shame.
| add-sub-mul-div wrote:
| Not to mention, they just launder their selling of your data
| through Google.
| snoman wrote:
| Fair criticism but to clarify: The default is that if you
| press home on the controller, it loads up the AppleTV app,
| where it will show ads for AppleTV content. Pressing home
| again goes to the actual home, where you select the app you
| want to watch (YouTube, Netflix, etc.). There are no ads
| there.
| tshaddox wrote:
| The AppleTV app will show Apple TV+ content by default, but
| once you've logged into other streaming services it will
| show a variety of content based on things you've watched
| across all your streaming apps. I suppose showing Apple TV+
| content at all is technically "showing ads," but it's about
| as innocuous as one could imagine.
| MBCook wrote:
| Right. I use the TV app to manage everything I'm
| watching. There are ads for Apple content (and extras
| like the football pass) but it's rather innocuous.
|
| I'm not getting ads from the lowest rung trash TV someone
| is pushing, random consumer electronics, things I've
| googled, etc.
|
| As far as I can tell it's basically _the best experience_
| on a modern smart TV without going full HTPC custom.
|
| (LG was pretty good they're getting worse with promoting
| things to you, it seems)
| whalesalad wrote:
| There is a setting to choose what the home button does. My
| Home Screen looks just like a grid of icons. No ads or
| anything. The Apple TV app is not the same as the Home
| Screen.
| sneak wrote:
| No, the home screen displays ads in the hero unit for the
| currently selected app. By default the first app on the
| home screen is an Apple one, so going to the home screen
| displays ads on the home screen from the selected Apple
| app.
|
| You can change the apps in the first row to prevent this,
| but by default the behavior is the same: home screen ads.
| tokamak-teapot wrote:
| Ads, or suggestions for content you could watch on the
| device you just bought, one of the main features of which
| is allowing you to subscribe to content providers, rent
| content, and 'buy' content.
|
| Calling this 'ads' is disingenuous.
| MBCook wrote:
| Those "ads" are provided by the app. Hulu showed me Hulu
| stuff, HBO shows HBO, etc. just like when you open that
| app.
|
| I think there may be an option to turn that off too, I
| don't remember.
|
| Honestly I'm never on that screen for more than a few
| seconds. I don't find that problematic at all.
| jdminhbg wrote:
| Yup. People always complain that the AppleTV is too expensive
| vs the competition, but stuff like this is exactly why.
| snoman wrote:
| I've had Roku, FireTV, and Chromecast, and I have had hdcp
| and/or performance issues with everything but Apple TV.
|
| I hate that I've turned into something of an fanboy but Apple
| TV follows the same old story from Apple: expensive but it
| consistently just works.
| baq wrote:
| Same reason I've become an iPhone fanboy - the alternatives
| were simply unbearable at some point and the iPhone... was
| ok. Apparently, consistently ok is a high bar.
|
| Can't say that about macOS, though - it's consistently
| below expectations for me.
| kkielhofner wrote:
| > same old story from Apple: expensive but it consistently
| just works.
|
| Not to mention at least you know where they're hitting you
| - up front, on the hardware. It's like the people that
| complain about a Macbook being 20% more (or whatever),
| buying a PC-something, and then coming back complaining
| that Windows is loaded with ads or Linux has all kinds of
| issues on it.
|
| I'm with you - I went from being a die-hard Linux desktop,
| Kodi, Android, etc, etc user to just saying "the hell with
| it" and plunking down for Apple products.
|
| They're expensive and they're not perfect either but my
| life is much less stressing and annoying as a result.
| mholm wrote:
| Additionally, if you're willing to resell when you're
| done with them, you can often get that 'Apple tax' back
| on the resale price difference.
| codedokode wrote:
| Macbook costs like 3x compared to competitors. For
| example, Apple M1 8 Core score on cpubenchmark is about
| 14000. If you look for non-Apple laptops with equivalent
| CPU score, they would cost around $450. And they support
| Linux.
|
| The only good thing in Macbook is display, which covers
| more than 100% of sRGB color space and has giantic
| resolution. I wish it could be bought separately and
| installed into a normal laptop.
| Longlius wrote:
| Apple Silicon Macbooks also support Linux.
| codedokode wrote:
| Oh, by the way in a $450 laptop you can upgrade memory
| and SSD.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Most MacBooks feel like Pareto-optimal machines. There
| exist other laptops with better displays, faster CPUs,
| better speakers, or just cheaper, but I'm pretty sure
| there are no alternatives with better or equal
| everything.
| Longlius wrote:
| My experience buying laptops in 2023 was that most of
| what I found was cheap junk. Even when I was buying stuff
| in the $1800-$2500 price range, it was mostly junk with
| build quality problems, incomplete support for the
| hardware (USB-C especially being an issue), and terrible
| thermals.
|
| I don't really like Apple as a company but I just hand
| them money and they give me a laptop that works without
| any nonsense. Maybe I'm just too old and overpaid
| nowadays but I legitimately feel like laptop
| manufacturers other than Apple are in a self-destructive
| race-to-the-bottom with each other.
| jdminhbg wrote:
| > If you look for non-Apple laptops with equivalent CPU
| score, they would cost around $450. And they support
| Linux.
|
| And their battery lasts almost two hours.
| kkielhofner wrote:
| Artificial benchmarks are interesting but as another
| personal anecdote, I bought a maxed-out Framework for
| over $3000 a couple of years ago when I was still Linux
| desktop oriented. Way more RAM, storage, faster on
| benchmarks than anything Apple at the time.
|
| It was the worst machine I've ever had. One day after
| doing yet another plug-unplug-reboot-wtf dance to get a
| display to work (that just worked the day before) I threw
| my hands up, went to Best Buy and bought some random
| basic Macbook Pro for $1200 (lower specs, of course). I
| don't know what the specs or benchmarks look like, I
| don't care. I just need a tool to do my work.
|
| What I do know is that it runs for at least weeks at a
| time, does absolutely everything I need it to do, and I
| never feel like I'm waiting for it. Plug/unplug displays,
| thunderbolt docks, open/close the lid, don't charge it
| for days at time. Just runs along - cool and silent. I
| open it, get my work done, close it. Day after day.
|
| I absolutely guarantee that even if this Macbook was
| $6000 I'm way ahead in terms of productivity not to
| mention stress and frustration - which I value very, very
| highly.
|
| It's been "Ohhh, this is NICE" experiences like this that
| have chipped away at my previous thinking and pulled me
| further and further towards Apple. Still not perfect (of
| course) but the time I spend fixing my tools vs being
| productive isn't even close.
|
| I'm probably just getting old and cranky but I have very
| little patience for BS at this point in my life. When I
| was 13 figuring out why RedHat 5.2 didn't boot on my AMD
| K6 was fun. It's not fun anymore.
| graphe wrote:
| Apple works unless you need something specific that every
| other devices supports but apple doesn't.
|
| I've never had a great experience with any laptop but at
| least I can't say I didn't get screwed on the price most
| of the time (non apple times). Who remembers how apple
| didn't admit or fix the Nvidia GPU on their laptop for
| years but it was easy to just get a new ipod?
| stalfosknight wrote:
| That nVidia GPU issue was a design flaw on nVidia's part
| that nVidia refused to take responsibility for.
|
| The problem is that normal use and wear and tear over
| time would lead to the GPU physically failing, leading to
| a non-bootable system and necessitating a whole new logic
| board.
|
| Apple had a long standing special service program of
| covering (very expensive) logic board replacements for
| all of those MacBook Pros that were usually well out of
| of warranty1 because Apple gave a damn about making it
| right whereas nVidia refused to even acknowledge the
| issue.
|
| Source: I was a Mac Genius at an Apple Store from 2008 to
| 2013.
|
| 1) https://www.macrumors.com/2017/05/20/apple-
| ends-2011-macbook...
| Consultant32452 wrote:
| I was a Roku fanboy until they started installing new
| apps/channels or whatever on the device without prompting
| me. Now I simp for Apple TV.
| MisterTea wrote:
| I just hook a nuc or similar sff Linux PC to my old 1080p
| Sony TV and I'm good. All the major streaming sites work in
| a browser. Best part is I can pause or open another tab and
| just surf the web in a normal up to date browser.
| jwells89 wrote:
| The other nice thing about Apple TVs is that their hardware
| isn't so terribly underpowered compared to other streaming
| boxes, which is why my Apple TV 4K first gen from 2017 is
| still snappy running current tvOS, as well as why it can
| play back media encoded in formats that aren't hardware
| accelerated without hiccups.
|
| So yes, it cost me more than a competing box would've in
| 2017, but it's given me smooth problem free operation the
| entire time and there's no sign of that changing any time
| soon.
| brightball wrote:
| I'm using Roku everywhere at this point and haven't run
| into any issues. Big fan.
| phinnaeus wrote:
| I've found the Roku UI to be pretty laggy every time I
| used it. It seems to be running at 10 FPS or something.
| Huge turn-off.
| cultureswitch wrote:
| Try the Plex app on your TV.
| sonicanatidae wrote:
| lol... give it time. Apple does NOT miss a nickel.
| mikestew wrote:
| What a low-effort comment. Can you answer the question of
| how long Apple has made the Apple TV? Based on that
| history, how much time should we "give" for your prediction
| to come true? Please be specific.
| compiler-guy wrote:
| The original Apple TV was released in 2007, over sixteen
| years ago.
|
| How much time should we give it?
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Even if it requires an internet connection, it surely has an
| option to start up on the Apple TV input, bypassing the home
| screen.
| ladberg wrote:
| I have a Roku TV (it was free) that I've never connected to
| the internet. Even when starting it up with an Apple TV it'll
| still hang out on the Roku home screen for 5s before even
| _starting_ the input change.
|
| It's pretty infuriating and definitely an intentional dark
| pattern.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| That is a device that belongs in the trash. I have always
| bought the cheaper Sony TVs ($600 to $700) and never
| experienced anything like that. All I ever do is use the
| Apple TV remote and it just turns the TV on directly to
| that.
| ensignavenger wrote:
| Do Apple TVs not display ads? I have Google TV devices, in part
| because I can install what er I want on them, including 3rd
| part launchers that don't have ads.
| sharkweek wrote:
| Apple TV advertises its own content when you are on the
| homepage (even as a non-Apple TV+ subscriber so it's a little
| more aggressive than like sitting on the Netflix homepage as
| a subscriber) but as far as I can tell nothing more than
| that.
|
| Been a user for the last 7-8 years and I love the UX.
| ace2358 wrote:
| If you count the top-app-row preview as an ad, maybe there
| are ads. If you move the tv+ app off the top row you don't
| see anything by Apple.
|
| There are no app suggestions or notifications on Apple TV
| (or at least I turned them off about 8 years ago).
|
| I have been happily streaming media off my computer with
| Apple TV and have never had a single issue with it.
| sharkweek wrote:
| Oh that's interesting, didn't even think about moving it.
|
| Even then though, I'm an on-again/off-again Plus
| subscriber so I don't even mind it because it often times
| suggests shows that I might want to subscribe for.
|
| I'm not sure how many Apple TV devices they sell, but
| I've always viewed it as super underrated, just a clean
| piece of hardware with great "It Always Works"
| functionality.
| tokamak-teapot wrote:
| I have Spotify at the top left of the clickable icons and
| the top row of the screen shows Spotify's suggestions.
| Slylencer wrote:
| You can get around this by being selective with the apps on
| the home row. I have the Home Sharing, Settings, Search,
| Photos, and Podcasts apps on the home row. No ads.
|
| Even then I don't quite consider it quite ad-free. Content
| I've purchased in iTunes Movies or iTunes TV Shows will
| always show the store on launch or will switch to the store
| if you pause content for some amount of time.
| jonathanlydall wrote:
| A year or two back they changed the home button to actually
| go to their TV app, fortunately this can be reverted in the
| options.
|
| Otherwise, there aren't really any ads except that if you
| linger over their app icon, it has a kind of "now showing"
| effect (no sound though). Seems a little more privileged
| compared to other apps in how much of the Home Screen it
| can use, but it's really not obtrusive.
|
| I really like my Apple TV.
| mholm wrote:
| I've seen a few other apps display content in the same
| way. Seems like it's just an 'underused' feature, rather
| than a private API.
| Semaphor wrote:
| So it's not adfree at all? That's all I see on my tv with
| Android TV as well.
| unixhero wrote:
| Sony does this too
| ceejayoz wrote:
| At some point they're gonna put a cheap cellular modem or
| something like Amazon Sidewalk in all new TVs.
| grishka wrote:
| Then you open up the TV and disconnect the modem.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I'm sure we'll see TVs with built-in AI tools to create new
| generative ads. Maybe they could include little cameras, so
| they could keep an eye out for any Amazon products in their
| house. This would help achieve Amazon's apparent goal of
| advertising things I've already bought from them to me.
|
| Or, they could just include a little cellphone radio. Probably
| only need to phone home once every couple months to get the new
| ads.
|
| And remember: hard drive space is cheap nowadays. You might not
| ever connect your TV to the internet, but it can at least
| record fingerprints for everything you watch. Maybe your kids
| will connect it to the internet some day, or you'll hand it
| down to somebody else, and then that poor trapped taste-profile
| information can finally make the trip back to Amazon's servers.
| hnlmorg wrote:
| That only works as long as TVs connect to the internet via
| WiFi. Unfortunately there are protocols out there for IoT that
| bypass per device WiFi settings entirely by setting up mesh
| networks.
| mmh0000 wrote:
| Amazon Sidewalk[1][2] being one of the biggest players:
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Sidewalk
|
| [2] https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Sidewalk/b?node=21328123011
| hnlmorg wrote:
| Indeed.
|
| Devices can also ship eSIM too. But at least that comes
| with bigger cost than just the radio chipset.
|
| I believe 5g can all support meshing. But I don't know a
| whole lot about that.
|
| Suffice to say, what little control we have now is going to
| disappear completely over the next decade.
| winternett wrote:
| Don't worry, smartphones will begin to fill the gaps, we pay
| for them, but the Industry does whatever it wants with them. In
| about a year, we may well have to watch 2 ads before making
| phone calls with the way things are going, while we of course
| pay even higher fees for mobile service (of course).
| whalesalad wrote:
| maybe on an android device but this is unheard of in the
| Apple ecosystem
| silisili wrote:
| For cheapskates like me, Walmart sells an ONN Google TV box for
| like $20. Make sure to get the 2023 version, it's a much
| improved upgrade from one released a few years ago. I love that
| little thing, and if there are ads, I don't see or notice them.
| It's much nicer and more responsive than the actual Chromecast
| TV it replaced.
| garciasn wrote:
| Yet. You don't see ads, yet.
|
| But, what you are doing, is selling your viewing history to
| marketers, albeit indirectly. For that $20 box, you are
| giving away everything you watch, when you watch, and very
| likely anything that goes through that box.
|
| That said, you might be 100% ok w/that for the price and
| that's ok. But, you should go in eyes open about what these
| lower-cost pieces of hardware are doing to 'permit' you to
| pay less than they cost from competitors who may or may not
| be doing the same thing.
| silisili wrote:
| I wouldn't say I'm 100% OK with it, more just accepted it.
| I don't think there's any real way around it with a
| streaming lifestyle. The streaming device wants data, the
| services want data. Even my TV I believe asked if it can
| view what's on the screen.
|
| Even if I had a dumb TV, and a secure trustworthy streaming
| box, the services themselves(Netflix et al) are collecting
| the same data, no?
| i_am_jl wrote:
| >Even if I had a dumb TV, and a secure trustworthy
| streaming box, the services themselves(Netflix et al) are
| collecting the same data, no?
|
| Collecting, yes, but not selling. ONN explicitly says
| they do so in their privacy policy.
|
| https://onntvsupport.com/privacy-policy
|
| >We may disclose "blinded" aggregated data and user
| statistics to prospective partners and other third
| parties. Blinded data is data that does not identify an
| individual person.
| silisili wrote:
| It's a pretty blurry line between sharing and selling,
| and if it's not, these companies should really make their
| privacy policies more clear.
|
| Netflix says - https://help.netflix.com/legal/privacy
|
| We may share information collected from or about you with
| Advertisers and/or Ad Measurement Companies to select
| advertisements, and measure and improve advertising
| effectiveness. As a reminder, please see the Information
| from Other Sources section above if you have questions
| regarding the role of Advertisers or Ad Measurement
| Companies.
|
| Hulu says - https://press.hulu.com/privacy-policy
|
| We may share information collected from or about you with
| third parties as explained further below, including
| business partners, social networking services, service
| providers, advertisers, and other companies that are not
| affiliated with Hulu.
| gambiting wrote:
| Meh, I own an LG CX and I have never seen a single ad on it -
| the app integration is so good I can't imagine needing to mess
| with another device just to use streaming services. Just don't
| buy ad-ridden crap from Samsung and others, I guess?
| MBCook wrote:
| TBF that's a higher end TV. I love mine.
|
| The lower the cost, the more likely this crud is. If you buy
| a $250 55" TV you're (unknowingly) signing up for ads.
|
| Sadly, there isn't much middle ground anymore. Ads and
| spying, or a ton of money (and spying).
| devbent wrote:
| Sony sells TVs that cost just a bit more than the
| competition but you can easily not opt-in to ads during
| initial setup (they are not selected by default!).
|
| Sadly Google seems to insist on showing YT recommendations
| to matter what on Google tvs, but you can just opt into
| "app only mode" and then you get none of that.
| petepete wrote:
| Perhaps some models don't but I don't think it's a free m
| given.
|
| https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/320778-how-to-
| stop-l...
| drewg123 wrote:
| AppleTv is amazing, and I use it for everything but YouTube.
| For YouTube, I use a Fire stick with SmartTubeNext
| whalesalad wrote:
| I have YT Premium so I use/enjoy the native app.
| nickthegreek wrote:
| Smarttube has sponsorblock built in. Even though I have YT
| Premium, it's a much better experience than stock app for
| this feature alone.
| gainda wrote:
| I've had a TCL Roku TV since 2018 and it was always sluggish
| using the apps through its default interface. I got an AppleTV
| last year and the ease of use & lack of input lag or
| advertisements was a breath of fresh air.
| delfinom wrote:
| Ugh, the Vizio I have became cancer after awhile. Even with it
| offline, it will automatically change the input to their
| spyware entertainment app after 10 seconds of no input. No
| ability to disable this malicious automatic switch.
| gustavus wrote:
| My solution was to just get an old box that was cheap, plug it
| into the TV with an HDMI cord, add a wireless mouse and
| keyboard, and viola. I have a viewing experience that is on par
| with what most other people have without having to have a
| locked down device that I don't control attached to my tv and
| spying on me.
|
| Plus I can use it to play Steam games, so gaming console and
| media device all in one.
| cooljacob204 wrote:
| Google has started to do the same thing making my nvidia shield a
| paperweight to me.
| jampekka wrote:
| Chromecast as well. Everything shall be enshittified.
| treypitt wrote:
| Chromecast has ads now? I just bought one because it was
| cheaper to buy a new chromecast 4k plus ethernet adapter,
| than replace my apple tv remote
| jampekka wrote:
| Chromecast with Google TV has half of the screenspace for
| streaming service ads. In some locations they have other
| ads too. This can't be removed even with the "Apps only"
| mode.
|
| I was kind of forced to get a Chromecast, because they
| actively block independent receiver implementations, and
| the prevalent Cast button in Android apps is used by other
| inhabitants.
|
| This should obviously be illegal, and probably is, but
| megacorps are above the law.
|
| https://www.androidpolice.com/google-tv-ads/
| yamazakiwi wrote:
| I never see ads on chromecast unless I'm using an
| application that has ads, e.g. youtube without premium
| jampekka wrote:
| This is with the newer chromecasts with Google TV.
| manicennui wrote:
| I have a fairly expensive Google TV and I have to navigate past
| rows of promoted content to get to the streaming apps I
| actually installed and want to use.
| cooljacob204 wrote:
| I'm dreading the day my LG TV decides it doesn't want to
| allow me to disable ads.
| achates wrote:
| If you dig down into the account settings there is an "apps
| only" mode that brings back the grid.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Roku too, but at least they're off to the side of the UI and
| easy to ignore.
| kn0where wrote:
| Highly recommend installing FLauncher[1] as an alternative to
| Google's ad-filled TV home screen. Just a nice simple icon
| grid.
|
| [1]
| https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.efesser.fla...
| qwerpy wrote:
| I did this and am very happy with it. Android TV doesn't make
| it easy though.
|
| The only thing remaining is to disable certain buttons on my
| remote, especially the huge google assistant one. It's easy
| to hit accidentally, and then suddenly the content gets
| obscured by google begging me to set up an account and
| configure the voice assistant. Haven't found a great solution
| for that yet.
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _" A non-Amazon TV displaying a fire."_
|
| The caption to the hero image is particularly hilarious.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Yeah so annoying. And very hard to block.
| snoman wrote:
| With DNS over HTTPS (DOH) gaining traction, it will eventually
| become impossible to block.
| manicennui wrote:
| Are there any Smart TVs that aren't stuffed with ads? Apple TV
| might be the least bad, but it still allows apps to display
| recommended nonsense on the home screen when they are
| highlighted.
| tomComb wrote:
| My Sony, which comes with Google TV, is no worse than Apple TV
| in its default configuration, and I've read about other people
| installing alternate home pages with no ads.
| thinkingtoilet wrote:
| I just bought a large computer monitor and use an old computer
| to stream. The quality is absolutely fine.
| whalesalad wrote:
| only for home row apps. tbh you're being a lil over dramatic
| they aren't ads they are showing a subset of available content.
| being able to swipe over the Netflix app and get a clean grid
| of the current top content on Netflix without opening it is a
| great feature.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > tbh you're being a lil over dramatic they aren't ads they
| are showing a subset of available content.
|
| Including content you didn't ask for in apps you don't use?
| What's your definition of an ad?
| whalesalad wrote:
| Re: apps I don't use - I uninstall those :)
| gainda wrote:
| I will also add that in my experience it is typically
| recommending shows you are in progress with, or next in a
| queue, or on some list you have curated before recommending
| anything else. So quite handy at times.
| imp0cat wrote:
| Google TV's can be run in "basic tv" mode if that is your
| thing.
| cbdumas wrote:
| I may be in the minority here but I bought an LG TV in 2020 and
| the built in webOS interface and streaming apps have been great.
| I think there might be some ads but I'm honestly not 100% sure as
| they are very unintrusive. We had a Roku from our previous set up
| I had planned to use after hearing terrible things about the
| typical smart TV software, but have since gotten rid of it.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| It might be a subjective preference thing.
|
| For me, smart TVs have a lot of features that make me angry:
| surveillance capitalism, manufacturers acting like the own a
| device I bought, subjecting me to ads, etc.
|
| Even if I'm arguably wrong about those views, _subjectively_
| the infringements make me experience unpleasant emotions, which
| detracts from the product 's value for me.
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| But can you use the TV as a dumb monitor and just supply HDMI
| input from some other device? I.e. the input stays selected
| across powerdowns, and no GUI/ads come up?
|
| Other "Fire" devices are a great deal. I have 2021-ish Fire HD8
| and HD10 tablets, that merely needed a de-amazonification script
| from xda-developers to turn into "almost completely normal"
| vanilla Android tablets, Play Store and all, and have been very
| satisfactory as such.
| troupo wrote:
| > But can you use the TV as a dumb monitor and just supply HDMI
| input from some other device
|
| Most "other devices" are also filled with ads
| fckgw wrote:
| There are some TVs with FireOS built in, but this article is
| mainly talking about the FireTV sticks and such. That's your
| primary content device, you cannot bypass the ads no matter
| your TV.
| extraduder_ire wrote:
| Can you root or otherwise put an alternative ROM on these things?
| They are basically just running android, right?
| mdasen wrote:
| Yes and no. People have figured out how to unlock the boot
| loader of some Fire TV devices, but it can sometimes involve
| opening up the device and making physical modifications (like
| shorting something on the motherboard) or having an older
| version of the Fire TV OS installed (it depends on the device).
|
| So yes, you can put an alternative ROM on some of these things,
| but I think the practicality of it isn't really there. I would
| just say "no", but someone will link to an XDA post showing how
| you can (at least on some Fire TV devices) through a really
| complicated setup that even a lot of people on HN wouldn't get
| though.
|
| If you actually want a custom rom, it's better to get something
| like an Nvidia Shield where you can just unlock the boot
| loader. The problem with the Nvidia Shield is that it isn't
| cheap like the Fire TV devices. It's priced more expensive than
| an Apple TV with less capable hardware ($130 gets you an Apple
| TV 4K with A15 processor getting 2,100 single-core and 5,100
| multi-core, 4GB of RAM, and 64GB of storage; $150 gets you a
| Tegra X1+ with 300 single-core, 800 multi-core, 2GB of RAM, and
| 8GB storage).
|
| When a company's business model (like the Fire TV) is selling
| you cheap hardware and then pumping you full of ads, they often
| don't make it easy to avoid that.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I'm curious if there's a practical way to replace the offending
| electronics.
|
| I.e., retain the device's panel, panel driver, chasis,
| speakers/amplifier, IR receiver, and perhaps power supply.
|
| But replace the computing hardware with something more open?
|
| I guess I have no idea how much custom firmware is needed to
| really get the most out of such devices. Especially for e.g.
| getting good color, and avoiding burn-in, on the display.
| fatherzine wrote:
| Not sure why to expect TV-over-Internet be any different than TV-
| over-cable: 1 minute of ads for every 3 minutes of content. Sure,
| for some years the industry held back the ads in a capital fueled
| chase for market share. Yet at some point capital requires
| returns, and so the ads spigot will eventually be turned wide
| open.
| sand500 wrote:
| Dumb TVs are still a thing
|
| https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1629173-REG/nec_e658_...
| joshmlewis wrote:
| > powered by Samsung's Tizen OS for business
|
| Not exactly (or at least bad example.)
| sand500 wrote:
| I missed that, updated with a different brand.
| wcfields wrote:
| The "OS" on the commercial TVs is more or less for digital
| signage purposes only. Samsung is kind of the defacto in the
| market, but I've worked with some new Panasonics that are
| just as nice.
|
| As far as the OS: It doesn't have an 'app store' and
| essentially you can program it to check in to an RSS feed /
| FTP / etc.. to grab new content, schedule content, or use a
| USB to load up a scheduler (Think like restaurant menu that
| changes from breakfast to lunch at 10:30am).
|
| Other nice features may include ability to daisy chain to
| make a video wall, fallback/failover if HDMI1 goes off,
| RS-232 control or command of other systems. Some models also
| are built for 24/7 duty cycle, though, if you go to a local
| sports-bar or the like they will buy consumer TVs that will
| look blotchy within a year or two because they aren't built
| to be on 20 hours a day.
| squeaky-clean wrote:
| It's a shame it's so expensive for an LCD tv without 10bit HDR.
| Are there dumb OLED TVs?
| karaterobot wrote:
| Sceptre was the go-to brand for dumb TVs for a while. I bought
| a 60" 4K from them for like $500 4-5 years ago.
|
| For anyone looking for a dumb TV, Sceptre does not appear to
| sell TVs on Amazon anymore, but they do exist as a company, and
| they still sell TVs (just search for their brand name and
| you'll find their website). I don't know the backstory.
| Ancalagon wrote:
| > The changes [showing more ads for money] mirror similar moves
| from others in the TV maker industry.
|
| Tbh this is every industry at this point and its driving me nuts.
| nerdponx wrote:
| And why not? From the perspective of any individual company,
| it's free money. Some consumers will leave or switch to other
| products, but most won't, either because they're already locked
| into your product ecosystem or because there's no equivalent
| competitor. So you just need to make more money overall than
| you lose on the minority of sales or subscriptions that you
| lose.
| xenadu02 wrote:
| Some product categories are nearly monopolies too:
|
| - Garage Door Openers. Chamberlain (also Liftmaster). They have
| like 80% of the market. Its them or Genie. Almost everyone else
| got out of the market. Decent products with OK prices.
| Competition would bring prices down some but not by a huge
| amount. However they are desperate to generate MRR and so
| despite originally having openers with WiFi and local APIs
| they've locked everything down to MyQ so they can force
| everything through the cloud and charge both you and 3rd party
| integrators money.
|
| - Sink Food Disposals - Insinkerator (part of Emerson) has
| almost the entire US market. Three product lines for the low,
| middle, upmarket segments.
|
| - Luxor. Owns basically all retail eyeglass sales in the US.
| Charges literal 10x-100x markups on simple plastic frames. Also
| the easiest slam-dunk for anti-trust action even under the
| super high bar used by the government today... but no one seems
| to care.
|
| For everything else we have a missing middle situation. You
| can't buy a "decent" TV, microwave, toaster, etc. There's only
| bottom-feeder dreck or high-end. Everyone else disappeared or
| doesn't want to serve that market.
|
| A lot of the products are objectively worse than they were 20+
| years ago. We have a restored Sunbeam Radiant toaster...
| besides automatically lowering and raising the toasted items it
| also makes toast about 2x as fast as anything you can buy at
| Target/Walmart today regardless of price.
|
| Kitchen appliances are similar. Your standard GE/Whirlpool/etc
| ovens, fridges, washers, and so on are uber cheap, not as
| repairable as they used to be, and are intended to be used for
| about 10 years then thrown away. To get a well engineered
| appliance that has proper service manuals and are designed to
| last you have to make a huge jump to something like Thermador,
| SpeedQueen, etc.
|
| TVs? The only way to get one not jammed with ads and tracking
| garbage is via "commercial signage" which is what I ended up
| doing. I bought a Sony Bravia "commercial signage" display. It
| runs Android but you can reject Google's license agreement and
| the TV works as a display anyway. It also has a documented API
| I can use to control it. Oh and it has a higher brightness
| rating than equivalent consumer TVs and is rated to be on 24/7.
| The extra money was worth it to me.
| BeefWellington wrote:
| "But companies will emerge to compete!"
|
| Maybe someday, we can hope.
| inanutshellus wrote:
| The Kindle Fire tablet is an upseller's paradise.
|
| The OS walls the user into an experience was built on constantly
| FOMOing the user over today's new Amazon content.
|
| Given that it was supposed to help my kids study for school
| during covid, that was a hard pass. I won't buy Amazon OS goods
| again, but if other people are lured by the low prices and then
| just accept what Amazon offers then I can only assume it's done
| wonders to their bottom line.
| specproc wrote:
| My brother was given one as a freebie and has another tablet,
| so I took it off his hands in the naive expectation I could
| root it and run lineage or such.
|
| A humbling experience.
| joezydeco wrote:
| If you own a FireTV stick or display you'll notice that the
| FreeVee streaming app has started to become more and more
| prominent. It's deceptively simple - they are taking old shows
| like _Murder She Wrote_ and streaming them non-stop on a
| "channel" much like the old terrestrial broadcast networks did.
| They're solving the streaming problem for older customers that
| don't grok Netflix or Hulu.
|
| These shows take pseudo-commercial breaks and send you 2-3 ads
| tailored to you specifically. My wife didn't believe it until I
| did a simple Amazon search on my phone for automotive batteries.
| Not more than 30 minutes later the ads switched to some random
| LiPo battery for RVs.
| joombaga wrote:
| PlutoTV is the same. I used to put on the Geek & Sundry channel
| and get ads from my employer.
| dsdsafklj wrote:
| I know what you mean but I can't help but imagine a 60 year
| old man pointing at the camera and saying, "Get back to work,
| Steve."
| tommica wrote:
| Now that's targeted advertising!
| supportengineer wrote:
| I can think of something even more evil. What if ad
| networks allowed the advertiser to SUBSCRIBE to events
| generated by the ad viewer. For example, XYZ Toothpaste
| Inc gets a web hook that Targeted Consumer 123 has just
| started streaming TV Show "Foobar".
| ndriscoll wrote:
| It's not quite what you're describing, but look up demand
| side platforms. At scale, advertisers are given the
| opportunity to bid on real time events.
| tomcam wrote:
| It's funny reading offhand remarks like this because I
| laugh and then remember I'm well past 60
| eastbound wrote:
| Should employers advertise how good it is to work, to their
| own demographic?
| DaiPlusPlus wrote:
| > imagine a 60 year old man pointing at the camera and
| saying, "Get back to work, Winston Smith"
|
| FTFY
| dingnuts wrote:
| Terrestrial cable is the same, too. I had a normal cable
| package for awhile (around 2020) and the advertisers clearly
| knew that my wife was in a particular medical category.
|
| Same w/ IPTV services like SlingTV, which I also used for a
| little while.
| nvy wrote:
| >These shows take pseudo-commercial breaks and send you 2-3 ads
| tailored to you specifically. My wife didn't believe it until I
| did a simple Amazon search on my phone for automotive
| batteries. Not more than 30 minutes later the ads switched to
| some random LiPo battery for RVs.
|
| This is so depressing. We're living in the future and it's
| awful.
| pxx wrote:
| I'd much rather my ads be targeted than generic. It increases
| value on both sides here.
|
| Comparing against the baseline of terrestrial broadcast, this
| is a far better experience than before.
| ndriscoll wrote:
| You're making the mistake of assuming the ad is for the
| best offer you'd be interested in instead of the one that
| makes the most money from you (i.e. the worst one for you).
| The expected utility to you is negative.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| > You're making the mistake of assuming the ad is for the
| best offer you'd be interested in instead of the one that
| makes the most money from you (i.e. the worst one for
| you)
|
| You are making the mistake of thinking that this is a
| zero-sum game. The product that makes the most money is
| not necessarily the worst one, it might actually just be
| one with higher margins or even an actually superior
| product that just lacks mindshare; in the end, buying it
| might still add value to your live.
| ndriscoll wrote:
| Markets like Amazon are already full of people who will
| sell the _exact same product_ with a computer generated
| brand name at slightly different markup. Even
| "trustworthy" brands do this kind of thing, and have for
| a long time. A system that knows everything about you
| (their goal) and tailors ads to you (or manipulates your
| ability to find offers) will inevitably converge on
| something that sells you the same thing, but at the
| maximum price you can be expected to be duped into.
| pxx wrote:
| You're missing an important nuance. The best
| advertisement is for a product that, _in expectation_ ,
| makes the most money from me. My relative interest is
| still important, and you can't just jump from the fact
| that somebody is making money to the unfounded claim that
| the "expected utility is negative."
|
| When I buy an item I'm making a decision that the
| marginal value of that item to me is worth more than the
| marginal cost. If the ad is targeted, a transaction is
| more likely to happen. Transactions happen when both
| parties derive utility from them.
|
| If you advertise only high profit items without concern
| for the probability of transaction, your audience will
| not buy anything or end up buying the same item from
| somebody else.
| hibernator149 wrote:
| You assume that they value longterm profits over
| shortterm ones.
| ndriscoll wrote:
| It's not just that someone is making money. It's not a
| friendly old man at the local bookstore giving you
| recommendations based on your tastes. It's a system where
| all of the battery vendors are bidding in real time to be
| the one you see, and the most dodgy one with the best
| margins is the one that can place the best bid, causing
| you to get the worst possible deal.
|
| These systems are not for your benefit. They are meant to
| use any information they can to extract more from you.
| mrighele wrote:
| As a customer, you will try of course to get the best
| deal. The best deal for you is the worst for them, so the
| target of advertising is convincing you that you are
| getting the best deal while actually giving you the worst
| possible.
|
| Targeted advertising is not giving you better deals, but
| providing you with a greater mismatch between your
| expectation and the reality. You _may_ get a better deal
| out of it, but that is an unintended side effect
| savanaly wrote:
| >You're making the mistake of assuming the ad is for the
| best offer you'd be interested in instead of the one that
| makes the most money from you (i.e. the worst one for
| you). The expected utility to you is negative.
|
| A customer buying something isn't a zero-sum transaction.
| My default assumption is that the product that stands to
| make the most money from me is the one that would most
| benefit me. For example, the grocery store sells apples,
| which I love, and chicken gizzards, which I don't love.
| The product which I want most (apples) will stand to make
| the most money from me. If I didn't know that apples were
| for sale near me, or that a particular store had
| particularly delicious apples, I would benefit from that
| and so would they after I spent my money on them. Win-
| win, not zero-sum.
| ndriscoll wrote:
| That's again assuming the system is making good
| recommendations for you. That's not what they're meant to
| do. A much better analogy is you go to the grocery store.
| The clerk knows you like apples and says "hey, I've got a
| bag of Johnny's apples here for $6", and pulls out a bag
| with a sticker that says "Johnny's" on it. Next person
| comes in, and the clerk offers them a bag of Dan's apples
| for $3.
|
| The bags come from the same orchard. Same tree. You paid
| for a sticker. The clerk just knows you make enough money
| not to notice because they have a dossier on every person
| in town.
| olyjohn wrote:
| It's not even that... they aren't recommending Apples at
| all, but they're going to try to get you to buy something
| else that is more profitable. It's like going into the
| store and then they're like "Here's a bag of oranges."
| ndriscoll wrote:
| If the system has a higher expectation that you will buy
| the apples, making them the more profitable option to
| offer, it'll do that. So people aren't entirely wrong in
| that way. But the point is even when it's "helpful" (by
| coincidence), it will still do everything it can to screw
| you. And yeah it'll happily offer you oranges if it
| thinks it can get you to bite. Or beer, particularly if
| it knows you're an alcoholic!
| titzer wrote:
| > My default assumption is that the product that stands
| to make the most money from me is the one that would most
| benefit me.
|
| Well, see, that's where things like cigarettes, liquor,
| and gambling just blatantly violate that assumption. Ads
| are psychological manipulation for the advertiser's
| benefit, hands down.
| owisd wrote:
| Not necessarily, it could mean the ads get better at
| tricking you into buying something you never use, or that
| it adds greater costs to the supply chain for something
| that you would have found out about via conventional means
| anyway.
| t-3 wrote:
| "Targeted" ads are not targeted though, they're just trying
| to sell you the same thing you just bought. It's the most
| annoying, stupidest, and least effective form of targeting
| they could possibly use.
| Lammy wrote:
| I wouldn't because it means they spied on me more often and
| more effectively. Broadcast TV was one-way except for
| Nielsen people, and they at least got paid.
| joezydeco wrote:
| Eh, it could be worse. For a while Hulu thought I was
| Hispanic and living in Texas.
|
| Got a lot of ads for the Texas Lottery with Spanish audio.
| nvy wrote:
| Ads are ads as far as I'm concerned. They're all
| universally trash.
| fragmede wrote:
| Ads, generically, are one thing. Car insurance when I'm
| not looking for car insurance. The problem with targeted
| advertising is when they're for something I didn't know I
| wanted. A band I like is coming to town, or a product
| that solves a problem I've been having. because then I'm
| spending money I wasn't previously going to spend.
| gosub100 wrote:
| Car insurance ads when you know they are paying those
| millions of dollars out of the premiums that _you pay_ ,
| just so they can tell you how cheap their premiums are.
| That's what ticks me off!
| eastbound wrote:
| I sometimes spam Youtube's "visit website" button. Just to
| cost them money. Now Youtube thinks I'm really interested
| in [that ad from that day] and now shows me all
| competitors.
| joezydeco wrote:
| I think polluting the data with random shit is the way to
| go. The mix of ads becomes somewhat entertaining,
| including the knowledge that I'll never buy any of this
| stuff.
| nvy wrote:
| That was the point behind AdNauseam, I think.
| cultureswitch wrote:
| Get ad nauseam if you want to scale this
| joezydeco wrote:
| I'll have to check that out, thanks
| gosub100 wrote:
| I recently bought a "smart TV" and I was pleased to see that it
| comes with essentially 'cable TV' (IPTV, I guess?) without even
| needing to run an app or set up an account. You just click
| CH+/- or guide and you watch another channel. One of the
| channels plays 21 Jump Street (the 80's show) and a few other
| 80's classics, another 2 just play 80's/90's music videos
| exclusively. I think it's kind of neat that the internet has
| finally come around to make cable TV obsolete.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| >I think it's kind of neat that the internet has finally come
| around to make cable TV obsolete.
|
| That's because internet _is_ cable TV these days.
| disposition2 wrote:
| > I think it's kind of neat that the internet has finally
| come around to make cable TV obsolete.
|
| As a counterpoint, decisions by the FCC (during the previous
| presidential administration), are effectively making the
| internet a requirement for OTA TV in the new ATSC 3.0
| spectrum.[1]
|
| Here's hoping we get more consumer focused considerations in
| the future. The internet features are nice (if you have
| internet access) but shouldn't prevent a consumer from
| accessing OTA 'out of the box'
|
| 1. https://youtu.be/nClxgUunmeE
| sonicanatidae wrote:
| What am I missing here?
|
| I mean, why not just not plug an ad box into the internet? Either
| use cable or a PC and voila, no ads.
|
| Or are they somehow tying basic functions like displaying images
| sent to the port with ads?
| apricot wrote:
| You can still do that. Many do. But the next generation of TVs
| probably won't even deign to turn on without you giving them
| Internet access.
| graphe wrote:
| Lol yeah right
| rdp36 wrote:
| On my five year old TCL Roku TV the other day I decided to plug
| back in an over the air antenna. I clicked on the live tv
| shortcut and no channel scan or grid schedule showed up, just row
| after row of links to free streaming "broadcasters". I had to go
| to system settings and check a box not to show those and finally
| I could select an over the air channel. A dark pattern indeed.
| andrewla wrote:
| Roku has done the same thing with their appliance. If anyone from
| Roku is listening, I would pay a significant premium to never
| again see an ad.
| teeray wrote:
| And advertisers will pay more than whatever that premium is to
| target you who have the disposable income to pay for ad-free
| experiences.
| jimmydddd wrote:
| i once bought a 1st or second gen Kindle on sale ($20 off). It
| would put a static add on the home page when turned off. To get
| rid of thne ad, I had to pay $20.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Honestly, that's what you get for not buying a cheap pc that can
| be hooked to any screen. It's easier, cheaper, and you don't have
| to deal with "apps".
|
| I am continuously amazed HTPCs are losing ground to commercial
| setups that are objectively worse by any conceivable metric. No,
| dealing with "apps" is not simpler.
| Sebb767 wrote:
| I've looked into those when I was setting up my living room
| and, while PCs have their strengths, they lack things like CEC
| support, proper support for a remote (which you can work around
| by using Kodi), apps like Netflix are hardly supported and
| getting them to stream 4K, HDR or even just to use Dolby is an
| exercise in futility. Not to mention that those setups tend to
| be pretty unstable.
|
| A technical user can definitely patch something together, but
| it will be a far less stable or streamlined experience and if
| you try to have your TV used by your non-technical family, good
| luck.
| mindslight wrote:
| Seriously! I can't reproduce the general complaint with Kodi on
| Linux. The end game was always going to be enshittification
| with these surveillance ecosystems offering throwaway devices.
| Yet people still keep telling themselves excuses to take the
| Faustian bargain - that figuring out something non-corporate is
| too hard, that this other brand will be different, that they
| can avoid the worst of it with various workarounds etc.
| Meanwhile once you set them up, the libre options just carry on
| working as society used to expect from appliances.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| It's weird that this is news in the US. Here in Spain they've
| done that for 2 years now. Chocolates, perfumes and other stuff
| are advertised on the fire TV home screen: (
| robomartin wrote:
| I have written about this before, particularly as it pertains to
| Vizio.
|
| My conclusion is simple: Government intervention is now required.
|
| I hate to take that path. I just don't see anything at all
| limiting what TV manufacturers are doing. They are completely out
| of control.
|
| The way I put it is that you buy a TV and they deliver a data-
| gathering, privacy-abusing digital advertising device into your
| family room, bedroom, etc.
|
| The level of surveillance and abuse on consumers is truly
| unbelievable. And nobody is even talking about putting a stop to
| it. HN often focuses on solutions to such problems that only
| techies would generally be able to or consider implementing. The
| vast majority of consumers are unsuspecting victims. They don't
| really understand that the home page is a bunch cost-per-click
| ads and that every single action they take is being logged and
| sold. Most people just don't know.
|
| And this is why legislation is required, not a techie solution or
| work-around. This needs to stop.
|
| So...I did something about it. I wrote to my congressional
| representative, explaining the problem and asking for action. The
| response, a few weeks later, was a form letter thanking me for
| contacting the office. So much for taxation with representation.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| I bought a dumb TV from Walmart a few months ago (65" 4K). The
| brand is Sceptre.
|
| Picture quality is pretty much the same as any other 4K TV that
| you will get for <$500. Audio quality is horrendous and that is
| not an exaggeration. This appears to be due to the speakers more
| than anything else. I got a dumb soundbar from Best Buy for about
| $150 and that solved the problem (as much as a $150 soundbar
| can).
|
| I am not the kind of person that is willing to spend $1000+ on a
| TV and I don't expect to get the same audio/video quality as that
| kind of TV will offer. But at my all-in price of about $500, it
| is outstanding package. We've got an AppleTV, a Wii-U, and a DVD
| player hooked up to it, as well as an OTA antenna. Our total
| usage is probably around 5 hours a week, and I can't complain at
| all. No menu lag, no long boot up, no advertising, etc. Highly
| recommended.
| imp0cat wrote:
| You can start most Google TVs in "dumb" mode, can't you? I know
| Sony definitely does have that option available when you first
| turn them on.
|
| https://support.google.com/googletv/answer/10408998?hl=en
| - Use your device without a Google Account - Use your
| device without an internet connection
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| Our previous TV used the Roku OS and also had the option to
| use the device without an account or internet connection.
|
| What we found was that it still dedicated a lot of space to
| features that required the non-existent internet and on more
| than one occasion it started suggesting that we should
| connect to the internet. I am pretty sure that if your kids
| accidentally click on some internet-required thing, it will
| take that as a signal that perhaps you've changed your mind
| and want to start using it as a smart TV. I find that
| annoying. Also, menu navigation was agonizingly slow :)
| whalesalad wrote:
| Even on really high end televisions the built in sound is
| usually pretty terrible. A sound bar is table stakes these days
| for sure.
| Mrirazak1 wrote:
| They need to make money of it somehow. The problem with smart
| home products that Amazon is learning now finally is that their
| loads of products in the home and you can't replace all of them.
| Lots of them are bad ideas to turn into products. Throwing money
| at the problem doesn't solve it.
| bozhark wrote:
| On ars, whose affiliate linked articles flood its own pages post-
| nast.
|
| Check their most recent "recommended" article filled with these
| devices
| webkike wrote:
| Alright, fine, I'm getting an Apple TV
| Sharlin wrote:
| In a move that surprised approximately no one.
| neilv wrote:
| And on other devices, Prime Video is getting incrementally worse,
| in recent months and weeks.
|
| I tried Prime Video with-ads, and it was not only unpleasant
| sucking of my attention and interruption of the show, but creepy
| with the targeting/mis-targeting. When the whole purpose is to
| relax and wind down for the day.
|
| Once I've run out of ads-free good content on Prime Video, I'm
| going to have to go through my GnuCash, to see whether the 5%
| rewards I get with my Amazon credit card is worth the Prime
| membership fee, compared to my normal 2% cash rewards Fidelity
| card.
|
| Hopefully, Netflix, Max, etc., will have ads-free accounts at
| reasonable prices.
| gumballindie wrote:
| What is it with this ad madness creeping into products we paid
| for everywhere? I own the product, i paid for it, now go away. If
| amazon sold it underpriced that's their problem, not mine. This
| practice should be made illegal.
|
| Anyway if you have a playstation laying around plug your tv into
| that and use that for online content.
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