[HN Gopher] Fedora 39 Released
___________________________________________________________________
Fedora 39 Released
Author : xdfg13345
Score : 130 points
Date : 2023-11-07 16:17 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (fedoramagazine.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (fedoramagazine.org)
| habibur wrote:
| Thanks to the team. Had been waiting for it. Release was delayed
| several times to fix bugs related to RaspberryPi.
| jsight wrote:
| In some ways, that is nice to hear. I'm glad the Pi is getting
| attention.
|
| Is the 5 supported?
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Doesn't appear so.
|
| https://pagure.io/arm-image-installer/blob/main/f/boards.d
|
| rpi2,rpi3,rpi4 is all that I see. I'm sure they'll work on
| supporting it in the future. I'm not sure rpi5 was even
| announced when they branched f39 from rawhide.
| wheelerof4te wrote:
| At this point, they should just focus on the x86_64.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Why do you say that? ARM usage is surging, especially on the
| hobby side which Fedora has seen a lot of use.
| otherme123 wrote:
| I'm a daily user of Fedora Desktop and Fedora Server (plus
| a couple of VPS), I couldn't be happier. But I tried it a
| couple of times on a Raspberry, and for some reason it's
| much worse than the Raspbian, so I waste time and SD cycles
| in installing Fedora, fighting bugs and going back to
| Raspbian.
| habibur wrote:
| worst two that I found are
|
| - the audio jack doesn't work. Maybe it's because I
| installed the server installer instead of the client.
|
| - GPIO ports doesn't stay on unless you lock it and keep
| your program running.
| tapoxi wrote:
| I've been a huge fan of Fedora, and it seems this release does
| 90% of what I want, but since I'm on a Framework 13 with a weird
| screen resolution, I once again fall into DPI scaling hell. GNOME
| locks fractional scaling behind an experimental option, apps like
| Signal are blurry and apps like Steam just seemingly ignore any
| attempt to scale properly.
|
| For what it's worth KDE seems to handle at least the blurry X
| scaling issue and supports fractional scaling by default.
|
| Maybe one day, everything will just work...
| Handprint4469 wrote:
| > Maybe one day, everything will just work...
|
| I've had the same hope since I started using Linux, back in
| 2004.
| sillywalk wrote:
| >> Maybe one day, everything will just work...
|
| > I've had the same hope since I started using Linux, back in
| 2004.
|
| I've had the same hope since I started using Linux, back in
| 1994.
|
| Driver support is better, and no X11 Modelines, which is
| nice.
| lagniappe wrote:
| Since '95 here... I'm just happy I don't have to visit a
| library to get 0.1% as far as I can today with a simple
| search query. We've got it good now, all things considered.
| I'm sure others feel differently, but I cannot complain.
| paulddraper wrote:
| Well you're in luck, because 2024 is the year of the Linux
| desktop.
| jklinger410 wrote:
| > but since I'm on a Framework 13 with a weird screen
| resolution
|
| Hold up, is this a reason to not buy a Framework?
| jwells89 wrote:
| The problem isn't just with Framework laptops, an increasing
| number of x86 laptops are built with odd resolution panels
| that require fractional scaling. Very few offer panels that
| are conducive to 2x integer scaling, and while typical lower
| DPI panels that don't require scaling are a config option on
| some models, that often also comes with other major tradeoffs
| like low brightness or bad color reproduction.
| tapoxi wrote:
| It's 2256x1504 and 3:2. It's a nice screen, but it's one that
| absolutely works best at 1.5x scale since 1 is unreadable and
| 2 wastes plenty of screen real estate.
| tmtvl wrote:
| As an idiot who's never used a screen with more than 1080p
| resolution, is there a reason why just increasing font size
| doesn't work?
| onetoo wrote:
| Not all UI elements scale with font size.
|
| Illustrations, nested element containers, navigation
| controls, etc. It looks very comical when you first see
| it.
| joaonmatos wrote:
| Desktop apps scale their layout based on the number of
| pixels, not on text size. So (with the notable exception
| of browser apps and by consequence Electron apps) you
| will just end up having bigger text in a badly laid out
| window if you just increase text size.
| alimbada wrote:
| Big fonts, small UI components. Looks bad and requires
| more accuracy with mouse movements.
| rodrigodlu wrote:
| Padding inside boxes/buttons looks all weird.
|
| Since for me less is more I'm doing 200% non-fractional
| with a smaller font. The problem is that I need a
| different font size from my 1920x1200 laptop screen
| (usually secondary, far away from me, with documentation
| websites/slack/etc) and my primary 4k.
|
| For browsers I can change the default font size and
| forget the controls, since I'm using vimium, but stuff
| like Skype/Slack/Zoom/etc needs more dancing whenever I
| change the display.
| tjoff wrote:
| Most of the time that is actually much better than
| fractional scaling.
|
| On a laptop you are severely constrained by the screen
| real estate, so minimizing the size of the clutter and
| focus on the content (text) is a great tradeoff in most
| circumstances.
| scblock wrote:
| No, though Gnome really isn't set up for it. Or being useful,
| really. But on my Framework 13 with KDE I have no issues. I
| prefer 1.25x when standalone and 1.5x when docked and used as
| a second screen (it's farther away) and KDE works fine with
| both and switches automatically. I don't even think about it,
| and can't think of anything I personally use that still gives
| me the blurry window in xwayland issue.
|
| The real trouble is this idiotic concept of "scale" in the
| first place as if ancient assumptions about pixel density
| cannot change. It's nothing to draw vector elements or fonts
| larger, and it's next to nothing to have more than one size
| of display element (tiny) users could select from.
|
| The only way to make Gnome usable is to use the accessability
| options
| jwells89 wrote:
| My ThinkPad similarly needs to run at 150% scale to be usable
| and I've also found that KDE still has issues even if it
| handles scaling better. The biggest one is that only C++ window
| decorations draw correctly under Wayland with fractional
| scaling enabled -- the much more common Aurorae themes are
| blurry looking which is unfortunate, because only a handful of
| themes are C++ and mostly minor variants of Breeze.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| Mine too- I was a bonehead and bought a "3k" display for my
| w541. I've found that 100% scaling w/ "large text" enabled in
| accessibility settings strikes a good balance.
| tantony wrote:
| I bought a Framework 13 when it first came out, with exactly
| this hope. I gave up after about one month of madness and
| ordered an M1 Max Macbook Pro. I also installed Windows on the
| Framework with WSL. Now it gets used very rarely (like for when
| I want to do Windows development, or for my parents to use when
| they visit) and mostly sits around gathering dust.
|
| Desktop linux has burned me one too many times for me to trust
| it again.
| brightball wrote:
| I've run almost exclusively Linux for the past 7ish years.
| First with Dell and then System76. It's been an overall very
| smooth experience.
|
| I decided I wanted to get a machine with a powerful video
| card recently, so now I'm running an Alienware with Windows
| for the first time since 2005 on my primary monitor and my
| Linux machine on a side monitor. The only real win for
| Windows is that it remembers my audio/video settings with a
| lot of peripherals plugged in. Linux seemed to forget every
| few hours and Zoom meetings were a nightmare. If WSL was more
| consistent it would get a stronger vote, but there are weird
| experiences in there.
| cantours wrote:
| Why isn't fractional scaling supported from day 1? I mean if
| you're going to do dpi scaling in the first place, why in the
| world would you restrict it to whole numbers only? Is it some
| insane hardcoded hack or something?
|
| Scaling with changing dpi is the easiest thing in the world.
| Anyone who has written a program with some kind of 'zoom'
| feature (be it a game, image editor, image viewer, etc) knows
| how easy it is.
| yett wrote:
| Fractional scaling was enabled briefly during beta but too many
| apps were blurry so they reverted and postponed it to Fedora 40
| noja wrote:
| Are Signal and Steam apps from Fedora? Is this a problem
| specific to Fedora 39?
| lostmsu wrote:
| They are not, but that's not what users care about. See e.g.
| complains about old apps for Windows being blurry when DPI
| scaling was introduced.
| cloudwalk9 wrote:
| What I don't get is why apps are still blurry on 4K screens
| last I tried it on Ubuntu, with 200% fractional scaling. If
| they're non-blurry on 1080p, shouldn't it be a perfectly
| linear 1:1 upscale?
| xoac wrote:
| How is 200% fractional scaling?
| kcb wrote:
| Fractional Scaling works pretty well out of the box on Ubuntu.
| It seems they apply patches to support it. As someone who just
| swapped from Fedora 38 to Ubuntu 23.10, Ubuntu definitely wins
| in terms of being a polished desktop experience.
| dpc_01234 wrote:
| I'm using the same setup and use 100% scaling and "Large Text"
| accessibility settings. Good enough for me, as a workaround so
| I thought it's worth mentioning.
| davet91 wrote:
| Steam fractional scaling should work since their big UI update
| a few months ago. Try launching Steam with this environment
| variable: STEAM_FORCE_DESKTOPUI_SCALING=1.5
| mikrl wrote:
| I tried using Wayland, but I forgot to write down the 7
| esoteric GPU related options I had to pass to vscode to make it
| usable without visual glitches and eventually just gave up and
| went back to X11
| dewlinedew2 wrote:
| Hooray!
| smetj wrote:
| Best Linux desktop/laptop distro hands down. Congrats Fedora!
| hospitalJail wrote:
| I am ready to declare it the best OS. I've never been more
| productive since getting Fedora.
|
| 0 Forced reboots. With windows, forced reboots were a multi-
| weekly occurance. No dealing with autosaves and reopening
| anything.
|
| Its so fast, you click and something pops up. With windows,
| there seems to be like a 0.2s delay on everything. This adds
| up.
|
| I think I did some of those linux commands that everyone is
| afraid of doing. But I did that month 1, and I havent done
| anything since. I don't care if the rest of the world
| discovered The Year of Linux Desktop was 2023, but I surely
| figured it out.
|
| Linux Desktop is ready for the big time.
| zamalek wrote:
| Try out Silverblue. It's immutable Fedora. The one thing I
| didn't like about mutable Fedora is that update reboot was
| extremely slow, like 2-5min. Silverblue fixes that one gripe:
| the update reboot is no different to a regular boot. 90% of
| the work is done in CI, 10% is done prior to rebooting, and
| 0% happens during boot.
|
| I went back to NixOS, but Silverblue was an _incredibly_
| close second.
| vondur wrote:
| For speed, I've been trying out using Clear Linux. It feels
| _really_ fast. Getting software for it outside of FlatHub or
| in the Clear Linux repos basically means compiling from
| source, but so far it 's been good.
| hddherman wrote:
| Did the upgrade on both server and workstation platforms, and it
| was painless. Great work!
| doakes wrote:
| Can anyone speak to their experience with the atomic/immutable
| versions of Fedora (Onyx, Silverblue)? It sounds pretty
| interesting.
|
| [0] https://fedoraproject.org/silverblue/
| spicyusername wrote:
| IBM uses Fedora CoreOS / Red Hat CoreOS as the underlying OS
| for OKD / OpenShift, Red Hat's flagship product, so the bones
| are solid.
|
| Silverblue works well enough. The biggest drawback is that you
| need a different development workflow, all container-based, and
| you have to use Flatpaks for installing Desktop software.
|
| The biggest questions I had while using it were, "Why am I
| doing this?" and "Is this worth the trade-offs?".
|
| At the end of the day all the benefits I got ended up being
| theoretical. Is it "cool"? Yea, its really cool. But does it
| actually solve concrete problems I have when developing
| software.
|
| In the end, I decided it didn't.
|
| I think its a much different story for using Fedora CoreOS a
| server. There the benefits are much more straightforward:
| reliable atomic OS updates, cattle-only servers,
| infrastructure-as-code deployment by default.
|
| I still probably wouldn't use them in production because they
| are a niche technology stewarded by IBM, but still, the
| benefits are more clear.
| jlkuester7 wrote:
| I agree that the benefits seem way more obvious for a server.
| I already deploy all my server-side apps via Docker
| containers with basically no system-level dependencies!
|
| That being said, one of the main benefits I am hoping to get
| out of Silverblue on the desktop is relief from the almost-
| inevitable system degradation I have experienced with other
| Linux distros where, over time (and especially with major
| upgrades), more and more things slow down and/or stop
| working. I am not sure if I am just doing something wrong
| (besides daily heavy use), but historically all my desktop
| Linux installations have become almost unusable after a
| couple years. I am only a few months into using Silverblue,
| but I am hoping that the way the system image is rebuilt for
| each update makes it more stable in the long-term....
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| distrobox/toolbox definitely solves concrete problems for me
| as a developer. Maybe I don't need to be running on
| Silverblue to use toolbox, but it's a good match.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| I'm happily using Kinoite (aka the KDE spin of Silverblue). I
| bounced off of NixOS, and ended up on Kinoite. It's got a few
| edges to it, but they're pretty minor and the benefits seem to
| be worth the drawbacks, IMO. I plan on buying a new dev machine
| on Black Friday-ish and I'll use Kinoite on it too.
| jlkuester7 wrote:
| I have been running Silverblue for a couple month now (after
| years on Debian derivatives) and I can confidently say that it
| is something you will either love or hate (not much room for
| middle ground).
|
| If you are the kind of Linux user that treats your OS like a
| pet, with lots of TLC and endless tweaking to get things "just
| right", then Silverblue is a terrible choice. It is way more
| difficult and time-consuming to "hack" stuff together at the
| system level.
|
| However, if you prefer to treat your core OS as livestock
| (something rigidly structured and reproducible automatically),
| then I highly recommend giving Silverblue a try!
|
| As a software developer, I run a lot of random
| software/dependencies/etc and I have historically struggled
| with my Linux system stability degrading over time as I
| add/remove packages and config. My goal with Silverblue is to
| have a solid base OS that does not suffer from package-drift
| over time. On top of Silverblue, I use distrobox to run many of
| my apps/bins in a virtual container. That container is where I
| do all my "hacking" to get things to work and I consider the
| container to be expendable. If I start having issues with it
| working correctly, I can just blow away that container and
| rebuild it without effective my core system, other containers,
| or the flatpak apps.
| FireInsight wrote:
| I'm on a https://universal-blue.org/ -based "custom image" of
| Fedora Silverblue and I love it. In my image, I ship some
| essentials software and other things that are just easy to have
| in there like fonts, plus a script for installing gnome
| extensions. Then I have a Nix home-manager -based shell
| configuration containing some common developer tools as well.
| The bulk of the (GUI) software I use comes as Flatpaks, and my
| development environment is a distrobox arch container.
|
| I've set all updates to be automatic and almost never have to
| worry about them. I am on the :latest tag and my computer
| updates between major versions automatically, and I haven't had
| any breakage yet. I feel pretty confident in the stability of
| my system and feel like were the disk to corrupt, I could get
| back up and running with the exact same setup very quickly.
| reisse wrote:
| Dynamic triple buffering for GNOME has been postponed again,
| fractional scaling is nowhere in sight, but they landed
|
| > a new workspace switcher and a much-improved image viewer.
|
| What a joke of a product management. Sometimes I envy guys who
| can rewrite workspace switchers again and again on Red Hat's
| money.
| dilap wrote:
| Do you envy Sisyphus? Very similar situation, I think.
| eVeechu7 wrote:
| Sisyphus only has one rock to worry about.
| kcb wrote:
| And still lacking VRR support. All we have is this needlessly
| drama laden multi-year MR
| https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/1154
| reisse wrote:
| Oh, I forgot about that! Thanks for the reminder. And lacking
| VRR is even more insulting now, since SteamOS has a working
| implementation for Wayland.
|
| Given how much Valve is doing for desktop Linux, I guess one
| day SteamOS will be _the_ default distribution.
| deafpolygon wrote:
| In my excitement with the beta version of Fedora 39, I
| installed it and had fractional scaling for a few minutes-
| until I installed updates and rebooted. It was gone. That was
| the last time I touched it.
|
| Fractional Scaling is a *must* these days, with the high res
| laptop screens.
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| Even though Linux is open-source, it's not immune to the force
| of money. There are paying customers for Red Hat, and maybe
| they don't care about DPI scaling that much.
| jsiepkes wrote:
| Modern high-res screens in notebooks are almost unusable with
| Gnome. You need to enable "Large fonts" under accessibility
| to make it remotely usable. And these screens are becoming
| more common. So where do paying Red Hat customers use Gnome
| for then if it's not on notebooks and desktops? For servers?
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| That seems likely, yes
| Ckirby wrote:
| Mostly severs yes, desktop Linux died somewhere around
| 2010.
| reisse wrote:
| I doubt any of Red Hat paying customers are caring about
| image viewers or other important GNOME improvements in this
| release.
| tristan957 wrote:
| Red Hat didn't work on the image viewer. Why do you keep
| making comments on things you are uninformed on?
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| Exactly, distros need to kept up-to-date, and by updating
| GNOME, you get new features for free. Downstream, Fedora
| grabs these updates. Downstream of that, someone spams
| Hacker News with the changelog. It's the cycle of life.
| reisse wrote:
| > Red Hat didn't work on the image viewer.
|
| Honestly glad to err here. Kudos to Chris Davis, Sophie
| Herold and other contributors.
|
| > Why do you keep making comments on things you are
| uninformed on?
|
| I'm informed well enough on the facts that a) Red Hat is
| the top contributor to GNOME; b) development of core
| GNOME features is going too little, too late, while every
| release is boasting about not-so-important stuff getting
| done. So I'm being vocal about that, because why not?
|
| > Exactly, distros need to kept up-to-date, and by
| updating GNOME, you get new features for free.
| Downstream, Fedora grabs these updates.
|
| If only two thirds of GNOME weren't contributed by full-
| time Red Hat employees, sure.
| tristan957 wrote:
| Community members outnumber Red Hat developers.
| Ckirby wrote:
| Because many of the new "features" are either unwanted or
| at worse distracting
| tristan957 wrote:
| Which features in the new release did you not want?
| grigio wrote:
| I can't believe LOL!
| tristan957 wrote:
| How many people do you think Red Hat pays to work on all
| projects within the GNOME namespace on their GitLab? There were
| no Red Hat employees involved in the development of the new
| image viewer. It was a community effort.
|
| Will you be stepping up to provide resources?
|
| Why are you ignoring all the other work Red Hat did this cycle
| with regard to things like HDR?
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| The amount of back seat dev that happens whenever Gnome does
| anything is amazing. You have no idea what the challenges are
| or how the development process works for this project. The
| workspace switcher could just be some drive by PR, who knows.
| Tripple buffering and fractional scaling are hard problems. If
| you don't think so, feel free to show them how it's done and
| implement it yourself.
| reisse wrote:
| > You have no idea what the challenges are or how the
| development process works for this project.
|
| The magic of the open source gives you the possibility to see
| it. And I do sometimes take a look into a shitshow of
| management which is this three years old triple buffering MR
| [1]. Don't get me wrong, I didn't examine the code
| thoroughly, it might be a marvel of engineering, but when it
| takes you more than three years (and counting!) to land a
| feature, to the point where some people start to forgot why
| it was even necessary in the first place [2], and when
| downstream has to monkey-patch your feature as-is because the
| benefits are so big [3], you cannot say your development
| processes are alright.
|
| And it's not only triple buffering, you can see the same
| pattern in the MR for VRR [4].
|
| 1.
| https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/1441
|
| 2. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/144
| 1#...
|
| 3. https://discourse.ubuntu.com/t/why-ubuntu-22-04-is-so-
| fast-a...
|
| 4.
| https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/merge_requests/1154
| tuna74 wrote:
| You can see a lot of bugs found (and being fixed) in that
| MR. Should Gnome add lots of new bugs for little gain?
| Ckirby wrote:
| Oh hush, the only reason people don't make their own
| contributions is because it's hard to keep up with their
| unstable API
| rcarmo wrote:
| Time to run a final upgrade on my LXC instances, snapshot them
| and give it a try at upgrading in place (has mostly worked since
| 35, wish me luck).
| butz wrote:
| KDE needs more attention. Now it is tucked away as a "spin" that
| does not inspire much confidence, but in some cases KDE provides
| much better user experience. Time to add all DEs into ISO and
| allow selecting the one you want during install, and software
| too. Like in old days of Fedora Core.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Come to where the air is crisp - Debian 12 is a fantastic KDE
| experience these days.
| FergusArgyll wrote:
| I actually have Debian 12 with KDE in a VirtualBox VM and am
| having issues with some windows appearing semi-transparent
| and not showing text, it's very weird and hard to explain. It
| might be because of a VirtualBox setting, i'm not sure. I
| still prefer it to a fully functioning gnome
| whalesalad wrote:
| I'm running bare metal on a 13900K, RX 6600 gpu (wayland)
| connected to an 5K Apple studio display and I've had zero
| issues. TBH I can't run gnome it crashes but KDE has been
| flawless.
| vondur wrote:
| The KDE spin from Fedora is really nice. It's pretty much
| vanilla KDE and is kept up to date with every new release of
| Fedora. I do agree that it should be one the primary download
| page as an option.
| scns wrote:
| That's one reason why i chose openSUSE Tumbleweed, KDE is their
| primary desktop. Horses for courses.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-11-07 23:02 UTC)