[HN Gopher] Website hosted on ESP32
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Website hosted on ESP32
        
       Author : harry247
       Score  : 152 points
       Date   : 2023-11-05 18:31 UTC (4 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (esp.khalsalabs.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (esp.khalsalabs.com)
        
       | simlevesque wrote:
       | Website doesn't load.
        
         | harry247 wrote:
         | it was too much traffic to handle for this little poor chip
        
       | ulrischa wrote:
       | If you look for something similar for the raspberry pico w try
       | phew! from pimoroni: https://github.com/pimoroni/phew Also I
       | think microdot will be running on the pico too.
        
       | 00deadbeef wrote:
       | It's down now. If the typical hackernews traffic could all be
       | queued up, how long would it take the ESP32 to finish processing
       | it all?
        
         | notRobot wrote:
         | Does anyone have recent information on how much traffic being
         | on the HN frontpage gets you? Would be helpful to know.
        
           | mobilio wrote:
           | 15-20k but can be easy solved with CloudFlare full page cache
           | rule
        
             | snvzz wrote:
             | Likely possible to handle HN load just fine... if the page
             | was static.
             | 
             | edit: page loaded. It's apparently Microdot, a micro web
             | framework running on micropython.
        
               | waveBidder wrote:
               | it's currently dead
        
               | LoganDark wrote:
               | That explains why it instantly fell over
        
             | yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
             | Well yeah, anything is easy if your server isn't doing the
             | work.
        
               | mikercampbell wrote:
               | "This website is run on an ESP32 chip that only cost $3
               | as for my proxy, I'm using distributed cluster of rack
               | servers and relays"
        
             | osigurdson wrote:
             | My website runs on baling twine and duct tape (...and
             | CloudFlare).
        
         | harry247 wrote:
         | I think it will drop most of the traffic, as I posted in load
         | test results. The traffic coming to this is crazy. I can see
         | nginx access logs and requests are not stopping!!
        
           | korhojoa wrote:
           | Why don't you configure the nginx that's in front to cache? I
           | mean, it's still hosted on the device, it's just got a
           | caching proxy in front, like all the big boys do.
        
             | harry247 wrote:
             | Its good idea, I never tried or probably didn't know much
             | about nginx caching. Will Nginx cache webpage and serve
             | directly without hitting much the esp32 server. I am going
             | to read on it now
        
       | chefandy wrote:
       | Hmmm... given the nature of the site, it probably would have been
       | better to post an archive link:
       | 
       | https://web.archive.org/web/20231105185258/https://esp.khals...
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | Perhaps it would work better on a cluster of these.
        
         | spudlyo wrote:
         | Right, like a Beowulf cluster!?
        
       | gotbeans wrote:
       | Hn's Hug of death
        
         | mikercampbell wrote:
         | Came to do my part
        
       | robbywashere_ wrote:
       | How the heck did you get a kubernetes cluster to run on a esp32?!
        
         | alexchamberlain wrote:
         | Was that a joke? There doesn't seem to be any implication this
         | is running k8s?
        
           | kaptainscarlet wrote:
           | It's running k8s with a load balancer for all the HN traffic
        
             | andrewstuart2 wrote:
             | Sorry, where's the assumption it's using kubernetes coming
             | from? All I see in the response is nginx which doesn't
             | imply anything k8s. The blog linked from the page doesn't
             | mention k8s either (nor nginx).
             | 
             | That said, you can run an ingress for a service that's just
             | an externalname reference with the right annotations
             | depending on your ingress controller and I'm pretty sure
             | it'd just work.
        
               | forkerenok wrote:
               | I think both commenters said those things in jest
               | referring to the oft occurring on HN criticism that
               | everything has to run on k8s nowadays, even a simple
               | website.
        
           | LoganDark wrote:
           | the joke is that every website needs k8s even though none of
           | them do
        
       | kaptainscarlet wrote:
       | I got a gateway error. Perhaps it "works on your machine" only.
       | :-D
        
       | flycatcha wrote:
       | The tutorial talks about how to do a local webserver where you
       | manually navigate to the IP address. How is this being served
       | over the internet?
        
         | panki27 wrote:
         | DNS and port forwarding.
        
           | grishka wrote:
           | And probably buying a static IP from your ISP.
        
             | byteknight wrote:
             | Just DDNS
        
               | grishka wrote:
               | Not all home ISPs give you an entire IPv4 address. Some
               | have fewer IPs than subscribers and thus use a NAT.
               | Sometimes a very restrictive one.
        
               | roywashere wrote:
               | In Europe, most ISPs use carrier graden NAT nowadays
        
           | LoganDark wrote:
           | nginx reverse proxy
        
         | harry247 wrote:
         | yes, I have a static IP and port forwarded. It IP can be mapped
         | to website (dns name) via namecheap and godaddy like services.
         | This is enough to put it on internet
         | 
         | In this setup I added a nginx in between (doesn't enable cache
         | yet) for load balancing.
        
       | nativeit wrote:
       | Headline should read _Website was hosted on ESP32 ($3 chip)_
        
         | codetrotter wrote:
         | Loaded fine for me now :D
        
           | nativeit wrote:
           | They must have spun up another cluster, maybe with some
           | Teensy's running Redis on SD cards. ;-)
        
             | harry247 wrote:
             | Its still a single esp32 s2 mini. Its Nginx that is saving
             | this little mcu !!
        
       | Aissen wrote:
       | Looks like there's a (non-caching?) nginx reverse proxy in front
       | to do the TLS. I remember trying to do TLS on an ESP8266 and
       | there was a hardcoded limit on the SSL buffer size, limiting the
       | maximum cert chain that could be served. I wonder if there is a
       | similar reason here.
        
       | _ache_ wrote:
       | Here is the tutorial: https://khalsalabs.com/hosting-a-website-
       | on-esp32-webserver-....
       | 
       | There is a nginx proxy. Nothing fancy here but kudo for the
       | tutorial.
        
         | harry247 wrote:
         | thanks !! yes it behind nginx
        
       | 0172 wrote:
       | It is feasible to run a small static HTML/CSS/JS page from this
       | microcontroller with a Nginx, Varnish, etc cache frontend.
        
       | rany_ wrote:
       | How are they doing SSL certificate management on an ESP32? Their
       | article at https://khalsalabs.com/hosting-a-website-on-
       | esp32-webserver-... makes no mention of how that would work, only
       | really basic code for a static cleartext HTTP server. Is it even
       | capable of such a thing?
       | 
       | Edit: I got a default nginx/1.18.0 (Ubuntu) gateway timeout
       | message after a few minutes trying to load this page, this is
       | reverse proxied.
        
         | schappim wrote:
         | The error message "504 Gateway Timeout nginx/1.18.0 (Ubuntu)"
         | suggests that Nginx, running on Ubuntu, is acting as a proxy
         | server and is timing out while trying to connect to the backend
         | server. The SSL cert is on the proxy server.
        
           | declan_roberts wrote:
           | So the answer is... they're not!
        
         | jcalvinowens wrote:
         | An HTTPS server with esp-idf is absolutely trivial:
         | https://github.com/espressif/esp-idf/blob/b4268c874a4cf8fcf7...
         | 
         | The software support is incredible IMHO, it's a huge reason to
         | use these chips. I made some toy temperature sensors with an
         | esp32 last year, they make it so easy:
         | https://github.com/jcalvinowens/tempsensor
        
           | constantly wrote:
           | Very curious about the scaling process. I've been building
           | something on a breadboard with an esp32 and I'm pretty happy
           | with it. Now I want it to be a lot smaller, and in one piece
           | rather than with a bunch of wires and components on a
           | breadboard.
           | 
           | How do you make the step from breadboard dev to something
           | manufacturable?
        
             | vinnymac wrote:
             | I usually use https://oshpark.com/ or https://jlcpcb.com/
             | with EasyEDA or Kicad depending on what you're comfortable
             | with. A good 3D printer wouldn't hurt either.
        
             | anigbrowl wrote:
             | Next step is a system integrator like m5stack.com, either
             | build a nice unit from their library of components and let
             | them worry about the minor issues (power regulation etc).
             | If you're prototyping at home just put them in your own
             | enclosure, if you want to go industrial you can 3d print
             | something that integrates with their stuff (eg user-
             | friendly modules like Core) or use the stamp components.
             | 
             | If you have done all the circuitry want to just
             | print/assemble your own PCBs, sites like PCB unlimited will
             | make up short runs or Digikey will handle larger scales.
        
           | _Microft wrote:
           | What's the project behind this? 30 assembled pieces are more
           | than I had expected.
        
             | jcalvinowens wrote:
             | There was no real goal beyond the experience of building
             | the thing and making it work. I use them to monitor stuff
             | like fridge/freezer and HVAC intake/output, and as leak
             | detectors in my crawlspace.
             | 
             | As you'd probably guess, the fixed cost of the
             | manufacturing was extremely high. Unfortunately I didn't
             | write the numbers down... but going from memory, ordering 5
             | instead of 30 would have only reduced the total cost by
             | ~20%. I remember a weird valley in cost-per-unit at a
             | quantity of 30: my understanding is that JLC combines small
             | orders, so my guess is that 30 of that board was the
             | largest order they were willing to squeeze onto the same
             | panel as another one.
        
           | barbazoo wrote:
           | Even a 8266 would probably work for most people.
        
       | jtth wrote:
       | Sure seems like it!
        
       | shrubble wrote:
       | Even on the much lower end ESP8266 it was usual to use a web
       | browser to let the user configure the application etc. It was
       | fast enough, for one user at a time...
        
       | rabbits_2002 wrote:
       | well not sure what i expected but it seems to be down lol
        
       | system2 wrote:
       | Website I tried to host on ESP32*
        
         | harry247 wrote:
         | Lol! this is true after posting on HN
        
       | raxi wrote:
       | ~20 years ago there have been websites running on 8-bit chips
       | consuming 400 bytes of ROM and 32 bytes of RAM (e.g.
       | http://web.archive.org/web/20050601082859/http://www-ccs.cs....,
       | an open-source clone:
       | http://web.archive.org/web/20010109144200/http://www.chat.ru...)
       | 
       | A 32-bit CPU is very rich
        
         | HelixEndeavor wrote:
         | Well, given that the modern web has a lot more requirements for
         | security to even permit most browsers to view a site, it makes
         | sense that the base hardware needs have increased noticeably.
        
           | raxi wrote:
           | Exactly those PIC18 devices, still in production and on sale,
           | w/o any changes during the years: http://utronix.se/
           | 
           | Of course, no https, but.. it is not a platform limitation,
           | just an undemanded feature: how would you get a https cert
           | for 192.168.0.1 or a similar intranet address where those
           | device suppose to work? They are just not for cloud
           | datacenters
        
             | Filligree wrote:
             | You can make an HTTPs certificate with that in the SAN
             | section, and it should work fine. You can't get one from a
             | publicly trusted provider, of course, but that's fine; you
             | don't own the IP.
             | 
             | In other words, make your own certificate authority for
             | your own machines. It isn't _that_ hard.
        
               | raxi wrote:
               | The problems here is not that hardness, and not even
               | yearly certificate updates, or bothering with new certs
               | on every IP address change, but (as the commentator above
               | rightly pointed out)...
               | 
               | 1. Planned obsolescence built into HTTPS: no HTTPS-aware
               | server device from year 1999 would work with 2023
               | browsers. Just because "too old crypto". Plain HTTP
               | works.
               | 
               | Being on a buy side I am against HTTPS in such devices,
               | but I understand the sell side's position.
        
         | russdill wrote:
         | There's a big difference between http and https
        
           | hermannj314 wrote:
           | I'm not really sure I've drunk the kool-aid yet on why my
           | static blog needs to be served securely over HTTPS.
           | 
           | Edit: wow. Some people are super sensitive about what ports I
           | serve text on. Good luck to you all in life.
        
             | JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B wrote:
             | Some ISPs modify the content and inject ads in HTTP web
             | sites.
        
               | Filligree wrote:
               | Mine tries, and breaks the page in the process. I
               | effectively cannot view any pure HTTP website.
        
               | Isthatablackgsd wrote:
               | You can view pure HTTP website through VPN. It basically
               | encrypted tunnel between you and VPN server through your
               | ISP. So your ISP couldn't try to interject the encrypted
               | connection.
               | 
               | However, your browser might prevent you from connecting
               | to http due to strict https only policy. My browser will
               | stop any connection to http page and throw up a warning.
        
               | hermannj314 wrote:
               | I get that. I understand why viewing http is insecure, I
               | dont understand why serving it is insecure.
               | 
               | Apparently this rubs people the wrong way. I get it, run
               | Lets Encrypt and certbot blah blah, but if I am hosting
               | an ESP32 in my house for a hobby project, I running HTTP
               | on the LAN.
        
               | bee_rider wrote:
               | HTTP in your house, over your LAN, seems like a fine
               | thing to do. I think people are assuming that your blog
               | would be on the internet.
        
               | Volundr wrote:
               | > I get that. I understand why viewing http is insecure,
               | I dont understand why serving it is insecure.
               | 
               | Presumably you are serving that content so it can be
               | consumed no? It's not like your consumers can consume
               | https if you only serve http. But yeah I suppose if you
               | are serving read-only content and don't give a shit about
               | what happens client side, there's a lot less reason for
               | https.
        
               | IshKebab wrote:
               | Serving data via http is insecure because that data can
               | be intercepted, read and modified.
               | 
               | If it's entirely public data then there's no security
               | risk to the _server_. The security benefit is for the
               | _clients_ , so unless you hate your users you should use
               | encryption even for totally public static data.
        
               | VBprogrammer wrote:
               | If your ISP is this shitty you should probably take your
               | money elsewhere.
        
               | smugma wrote:
               | ISP's are often a monopoly or duopoly of equally shitty
               | options.
        
               | BrandoElFollito wrote:
               | Not everywhere though. The idea of an ISP in France
               | injecting content is insane (and wild be completely
               | illegal as well)
        
               | northwest65 wrote:
               | Then leave whatever tech backwater you live in and move
               | to the first world.
        
             | LoganDark wrote:
             | HTTPS doesn't really have to do with whether the page
             | content is sensitive. It's more about protecting visitors
             | from MitM attacks, traffic analysis, and their browser
             | screaming at them and refusing to load your site because
             | it's ""insecure""
        
             | Isthatablackgsd wrote:
             | One of the reasons is to prevent ISP and other to intercept
             | the page and interject the codes before it arrives to the
             | users. It a common method to put the payload in the http. I
             | believe it called middle-in-the-man method. With https, it
             | reduced a lot of attacks.
             | 
             | There was a news about Comcast interjected a Steam
             | storefront page with a data cap warning on it to a Comcast
             | subscriber. And this happened inside Steam app which was
             | using http at the time.
        
             | echelon wrote:
             | You're being downvoted, but you're right.
             | 
             | I'm fine serving my personal website under http.
             | 
             | - If someone is worried they'll be found out using my site,
             | then fine, don't use it. This advice is just for my site,
             | and it's fine to desire security elsewhere and in other
             | contexts.
             | 
             | - If an ISP or MITM want to inject some content in my
             | website, then fine. We'll all know not to use those
             | providers. I promise I'm not important enough for this to
             | be a vector someone would want to exploit.
             | 
             | None of the information I have to offer you requires HTTPS.
             | I assure you.
             | 
             | I think it's fine that https is becoming the default,
             | especially for web services. But we shouldn't enforce it.
             | It's an undue burden to have to support all the certificate
             | machinery just to serve some basic info.
             | 
             | We really need to get back to the basic, easy to hack web.
             | Where it took nothing to spin up services on your home
             | machines and serve them as demos to others. That ethos was
             | great.
        
               | jacquesm wrote:
               | The web was _fantastic_ until money got involved. And the
               | best parts of the web are still where there is no money
               | involved.
        
               | bobmaxup wrote:
               | When wasn't money involved?
               | 
               | Geocities was bought for $3.6 billion dollars by Yahoo in
               | 1999. It lauched in 1994. The web is only three years
               | older than that.
               | 
               | I had my first website on Angelfire in 1996 before my
               | 10th birthday. WhoWhere purchased Angelfire a year later,
               | and then they were bought by Lycos a year after that for
               | $133 million.
               | 
               | Also, I don't remeber it being _fantastic_. To me, even
               | with all faults considered, things are much nicer today.
        
               | stevenhuang wrote:
               | The point is not your safety, but the safety of all your
               | viewers.
               | 
               | The more ubiquitous http is for the average internet
               | user, the more worth the squeeze MITM becomes for the
               | targeted user.
        
             | Jleagle wrote:
             | https://doesmysiteneedhttps.com/
        
             | rany_ wrote:
             | Everything should be served securely these days. Prior to
             | HTTPS being absolutely king, ISPs here used to inject EXEs
             | with malware and do all sorts of nasty stuff. With HTTPS
             | dominating they don't do that sort of thing anymore as the
             | share of HTTP traffic is so low making ROI very low.
             | 
             | Anyway I'll give you one reason based on the above on why
             | you should serve your content over HTTPS, it shields you
             | from potentially having your visitors be victims of
             | something like this and in all likelihood they will blame
             | you for whatever malware their ISP sent their way... they
             | did get infected from your website, after all.
        
               | chrisfosterelli wrote:
               | And further, while edge cases around MitM do exist, the
               | reality is really that it'd almost certainly just fine if
               | someone's personal blog was just http in 99.99% of cases.
               | But most of the web traffic isn't someone's blog and it
               | really should be encrypted, and it's simple enough to set
               | up for free nowadays, so it's going to be far easier to
               | get most of the web to be encrypted if we increasingly
               | work to phase out http.
               | 
               | Yes, small blogs are a 'casualty' of this progression
               | towards expecting HTTPS in that they have to put a tiny
               | bit more work in, but if we didn't do this we'd be back
               | in the days of nitpicking about every single 'acceptable'
               | case of http while vendors use the fact that it doesn't
               | have widespread adoption to leave session cookies in
               | plaintext requests for tools like fire sheep to grab.
        
               | rany_ wrote:
               | Personally I would have been upset about this transition
               | if it weren't for the fact that SSL certificates that are
               | trusted by browsers is basically free now. Not only that
               | but they could be had from many different CAs, not just
               | Let's Encrypt. So the old argument that Let's Encrypt
               | going offline means no free certificates for you is
               | basically gone as well.
        
             | groestl wrote:
             | You can serve to yourself whatever you want, but please
             | don't make other people leak what you've served them.
        
             | ndriscoll wrote:
             | People can be really tedious when it comes to this subject.
             | Like, for the authenticity use-case, the server could
             | present its certificate followed by a signed but
             | unencrypted page, in a standard way so the browser could
             | check the signature. Then the signature for static
             | resources can be cached on the server (or middle boxes) and
             | no key exchange or encryption is needed, greatly reducing
             | computational needs to serve a page while still keeping it
             | essentially secure. There's also fewer hops in this
             | scenario (so better user experience), and it's easier to do
             | things like filtering with a simpler proxy without needing
             | to install CAs. But no one wants to have a productive
             | conversation about actual trade-offs here.
             | 
             | Edit: in fact, if we used client certs for user
             | identity[0], signed requests could also be used for form
             | submission for e.g. public forums or youtube uploads where
             | you might not care about privacy of the submission itself.
             | 
             | [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38129870
        
             | tlavoie wrote:
             | Having HTTPS as the only option for a site is an excellent
             | default, both for protecting the confidentiality and
             | integrity content, as well as validating the identity of
             | the site for the client. Maybe a good way to put it is that
             | the vast majority of the site's uses and data needs no
             | protection, but protecting all of it well is probably much
             | easier to do correctly than just selectively encrypting the
             | important parts.
             | 
             | My humble little personal site has largely unauthenticated,
             | static blog stuff. It also has personal apps that nobody
             | else uses, but I want to protect the authentication bits.
        
             | ben0x539 wrote:
             | You obviously don't _need_ to serve your static blog over
             | HTTPS, but I think it would be nice of you to serve it over
             | HTTPS anyway!
        
             | spiderice wrote:
             | > Some people are super sensitive about what ports I serve
             | text on
             | 
             | If I thought the key difference between http and https was
             | which port it is served on, I'd probably be confused by
             | people's reaction too.
        
         | strags wrote:
         | I remember that PIC project. I don't know if source was ever
         | released, but I recall a lot of folks being _very_ dubious
         | about the claims made.
         | 
         | Quote: The PIC has 1024 words (12-bits) of program ROM, ~256
         | bytes contain a hand-crafted RFC1122-compliant implementation
         | of TCP/IP including.
         | 
         | HTTP/1.0 and i2c eeprom Filesystem, using 3 to 99 instructions.
         | TCP and UDP protocol stack, using 70 to 99 instructions. ICMP
         | [supports upto ping -s 11], using upto 14 instructions. IP -
         | Internet Protocol, v4, using 68 to 77 instructions. SLIP -
         | Serial Line IP packetisation, about 76 inst Fully buffered
         | UART, upto 115200 bps, using 38 to 56 instructions. Operating
         | system: RTOS with Rate Monotonic Analysis, using 3 to 15
         | instructions.
        
       | harry247 wrote:
       | OMG!! I didn't expect that I am getting that much traffic from
       | HN. I put this besides nginx but still its too much traffic to
       | process for Esp32 S2 chip. Lol
        
         | joshxyz wrote:
         | poor chip must be fried already lol
        
         | anigbrowl wrote:
         | Shoulda spent the extra $2 for S3
         | 
         | Just kidding, ESP32 in general is great, but the newer ones do
         | offer a bunch of extra stuff onboard for very little more
         | cost/complexity.
        
       | Poudlardo wrote:
       | ...but not for long
        
       | c22 wrote:
       | I put a website into 95% of my esp32 projects, mostly to make
       | configuration easier.
        
         | calibas wrote:
         | Out of curiosity, what do you use for the server?
         | 
         | I've had good experiences with the HTTP Server component built
         | into ESP-IDF. I see the example in this post uses Microdot.
        
       | harry247 wrote:
       | I did some load tests before postings, simulate 100 users at a
       | time. It was serving only 47 of them:
       | https://bashify.io/images/tNg4SB https://bashify.io/images/7OtLGf
        
       | m3kw9 wrote:
       | Looks burnt out now
        
       | acbmkt wrote:
       | https://acbmkt.com/intelligent-cameras-in-the-service-of-hea...
        
       | imhoguy wrote:
       | Put that on OpenWRT router (usually more powerful than ESP) and
       | you call it "hosted on edge"
        
       | LoganDark wrote:
       | Hosting a website on ESP32 is one thing, but running Python on
       | it?! Are you insane? No wonder it gets hugged to death if more
       | than 2 people visit it at once.
        
       | mikewarot wrote:
       | I wondered why in the heck a static web site running in a
       | resource limited environment _would even attempt_ to run https.
       | Based on the HN hug of death, it appears the reverse proxy adds
       | HTTPS /TLS/whatever support, and it wasn't able to cope.
       | 
       | I wish that the demand for security theater in web browsers
       | wasn't so high that they effectively prohibit plain old text
       | transport.
        
         | harry247 wrote:
         | yes, you got it right its due to that odd message web browsers
         | show for non-https websites. This HTTPS/TLS has been added
         | using nginx on different server, also to support some load. The
         | website is still under lot of traffic, however nginx is doing
         | good on its part.
        
         | IshKebab wrote:
         | In what way is requiring encryption security theatre?
        
           | anigbrowl wrote:
           | Not everything needs to be encrypted. If I'm serving static
           | webpages the only thing I might want to log is the which IPs
           | visited at what time of day.
        
             | arthurcolle wrote:
             | How can you reliably know that you're not being MITM
             | without HSTS?
        
               | mikewarot wrote:
               | How can you know you're not with HSTS? The whole
               | centralized security system is suspicious in terms of
               | failure points.
        
               | woodruffw wrote:
               | The Web PKI is hierarchical, but it isn't particularly
               | centralized (other than Let's Encrypt increasingly eating
               | everyone else's lunch, which is probably a good thing).
               | 
               | But in terms of actual failure points: if you're
               | initiating a connection over HTTPS, then the only way an
               | attacker can MITM you is by convincing a CA to
               | incorrectly issue them a certificate for that domain.
               | That's why Chrome and Safari monitor certificate
               | transparency logs, and why website operations should also
               | generally monitor the logs (to look for evidence of
               | misissuance on their own domains).
        
               | anigbrowl wrote:
               | Not my problem if I am just serving a static page.
               | 
               | For a commercial service or if I was handling people's
               | credentials I'd use something more robust.
        
             | bradly wrote:
             | Isn't HTTPS needed to stop injection by ISPs?
        
               | serf wrote:
               | customer migration and fiscal loss is what _should_
               | happen.
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | But it won't, so... https everywhere.
        
             | kxrm wrote:
             | I agree that not everything needs to be encrypted, but
             | unfortunately a lot of people who browse the web are
             | concerned when the browser complains that something is not
             | secure.
             | 
             | From the browser maker's side, how does a browser know
             | whether something should or should not be secured? They
             | have clearly taken a more aggressive approach to inform
             | users what is going on within the underlying protocol.
             | While I do agree that not everything needs to be encrypted,
             | I also agree that the user should know what is or is not
             | happening under the hood.
        
             | woodruffw wrote:
             | Where does logging enter into it? To my understanding,
             | serving traffic over HTTPS doesn't require you to do any
             | additional logging (or any logging at all).
             | 
             | The point about static webpages would be a potentially good
             | one in a world where ISPs and other Internet middlemen are
             | honest and transparent actors, but this has so far proven
             | not to be the case. I think it's in everyone's interest for
             | your static content to reach my browser without ads or
             | tracking mechanisms being injected by a third party.
        
               | anigbrowl wrote:
               | As in, if someone hacks into there wouldn't be anything
               | much to grab. For any sort of commercial service I would
               | use as regular computer or on S3.
        
               | woodruffw wrote:
               | Unless I'm misunderstanding, I think that's kind of
               | orthogonal to the question of encrypted transit. Plenty
               | of services that expose only HTTPS don't encrypt at rest
               | (and vice versa).
        
         | groestl wrote:
         | Because sniffing? And tampering?
        
         | bradly wrote:
         | I would blame ISP's and public WIFI providers before blaming
         | browsers for preventing ISPs and/or anyone else from
         | MitM/malware/injection attacks.
        
         | 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
         | Maybe it's more than security theater. With mandatory TLS,
         | i.e., encryption plus third party-mediated authentication, the
         | ability to publish a website comes under the control of third
         | parties, so-called "Certificate Authorities" (CAs).
         | 
         | The source of this third party "authority" is unclear. If a CA
         | uses DNS for verification, then the "authority" is ultimately
         | ICANN. And we know that ICANN's "authority" is completely faked
         | up. It has no legal basis. These pseudo regulatory bodies have
         | no democratic process to ensure they represent www users paying
         | for internet subscriptions. As it happens, these organisations
         | generally answer only to so-called "tech" companies.
         | 
         | Effectively, CAs and browser vendors end up gatekeeping who can
         | have a website on the public internet and who cannot. Not to
         | mention who can be an "authority" for what is a trustowrthy
         | website and what is not (CA/Browser Forum).
         | 
         | The hoops that the browser vendors make a www user jump through
         | is order to trust a website without the assistance of a third
         | party are substantial. It seems that no www user can be
         | expected to make their own decisions about what they trust and
         | what they don't. The decision is pre-made, certificates are
         | pre-installed, autonomy is pre-sacrificed, delegated to so-
         | called "tech" companies.
         | 
         | Meanwhile these so-called "tech" companies who are also the
         | browser vendors are commercial entities engaged in data
         | collection for online advertising purposes. For more informed
         | users, these actors are perhaps the greatest eavesdropping
         | threat that they face. The largest and most influential of them
         | has been sued for wiretapping www users on multiple occassions.
         | 
         | tl;dr Even if the contents of the transmission is not sensitive
         | and perfectly suited to plain text, the system put in place by
         | so-called "tech" companies to benefit themselves at the expense
         | of every www users' privacy ensures that TLS must be used as a
         | means of identifying what is an "acceptable" website and what
         | is not. Absence of a certificate from a self-appointed third
         | party certificate authority means "not acceptable".
         | Certificates from first party authorities, i.e., ordinary www
         | users, means "not acceptable".
        
           | nanis wrote:
           | Also note https://www.nu42.com/2014/12/https-everywhere-and-
           | hr4681.htm...
        
       | nektro wrote:
       | we didn't stop hosting websites on hardware like this because
       | it's impossible. we stopped because spammers made it impractical.
        
       | declan_roberts wrote:
       | Website hosted on ESP ($3 chip) and served from $15,000 CDN
       | server.
        
         | harry247 wrote:
         | nope, no CDN. It has NGINX reverse proxy
        
       | jdjdjdhhd wrote:
       | I used to host a website on ESP8266 for my personal use... An
       | even weaker and cheaper chip
        
       | SilverBirch wrote:
       | I personally think it's pretty mean to hear that a website is
       | hosted on an ESP32 and then post it on HN. Guess we're going to
       | test this one to destruction...
        
       | kleton wrote:
       | Sat sri akal
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | I want to see a website hosted on a computer built entirely from
       | discrete transistors.
        
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       (page generated 2023-11-05 23:00 UTC)