[HN Gopher] Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an...
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Berlin's famed nightclubs, losing customers, face an uncertain
future
Author : toomuchtodo
Score : 48 points
Date : 2023-11-05 14:05 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| RamblingCTO wrote:
| You also have tik tok ravers. A generation which built their own
| culture in isolation in the pandemic now flooding the dance
| floors not knowing anything about techno culture. For me it's a
| big part of not wanting to go anywhere anymore. Before, your
| outfit didn't matter, phones, photos and videos were discouraged.
| Nowadays these kids dress to impress and point there phones
| everywhere. They consume the techno culture and in that way
| destroy it. It's sad but I think it's over.
| totetsu wrote:
| I heard phones were putting a dampener on the lakeside
| sunbathing too
| 3seashells wrote:
| It's never over as long as there is a industrial ruin, a
| speaker and a glowstick. The rest is just the clubs that ate
| the raves. Nothing of value was lost.
| FFP999 wrote:
| It'll never be over--it's just Berlin will no longer be the
| capital of it. Actually would not be terribly surprised if
| the party moves to San Francisco next.
| jeffbee wrote:
| San Francisco is the least party city imaginable. There is
| probably a better dance scene in Moscow, Idaho then there
| is in SF.
| FFP999 wrote:
| Today, yes. But see my reply to commenter above.
| 3seashells wrote:
| It goes were cheap space exists. So SF not, rust belt yes,
| eastern Europe yes..the gentrified poker chip stack cities
| of the investors can not host vibrant nightlife..
| FFP999 wrote:
| I'm talking about if current trends continue--
| specifically, capital continuing to flee SF.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Indeed. The whole of SV has crazy empty commercial space,
| and it will only get worse.
|
| And SF is in way worse shape.
| FFP999 wrote:
| Come to think of it, I've personally seen what SF looks
| like after the money goes away--and this time it seems to
| be going a lot faster and to a much bigger degree.
| spacemadness wrote:
| This would assume housing in SF becomes reasonable ala
| dotcom crash era? Nimbys finally get their due? I remain
| incredibly skeptical that is going to happen but we'll see.
| FFP999 wrote:
| Seems to me if the housing market continues to drop
| there, NIMBYs will get what they want: less demand for
| housing means less reason to build in their backyards.
|
| Or I guess maybe you were referring to the value of their
| houses drop, in which case, probably, and I personally
| wouldn't be very troubled if I saw that.
| spacemadness wrote:
| Nimbys want less people certainly, but most want that by
| watching their investment continue to skyrocket.
| zappb wrote:
| Detroit techno scene rises up again! Or the Chicago house
| scene.
| FFP999 wrote:
| I for one would not complain.
| api wrote:
| The "main character" TikTok culture is the most annoying thing
| in popular culture right now. Well that and maybe the cringey
| YouTube pranksters that deserve to be punched and sometimes
| are.
|
| Maybe the clubs could do something to make it a bad environment
| to make TikTok videos, like bombing the place with extremely
| bright flashing lights at a frequency that humans can't see but
| that interferes with most phone cameras?
|
| https://hackaday.com/2020/02/28/using-ir-leds-to-hide-in-pla...
|
| That plus Faraday mesh in the walls could help.
| fullspectrumdev wrote:
| They simply kick you out for filming, lol.
| fab1an wrote:
| Phones and photography are banned in many Berlin clubs - they
| either lock your phone away at the entrance or put a sticker on
| the camera. That's why you barely see any footage from inside
| Berghain anywhere...
| red_admiral wrote:
| I think most people who go there would consider that a
| feature, not a bug.
| RamblingCTO wrote:
| Absolutely. Techno was a safe space and you could be as
| freaky as you want without fear of repercussions.
| makeitshine wrote:
| For many older people it died in the 90s. When people stopped
| dancing and treated the DJ like it was a concert I felt it had
| changed into something else. I watch some of the old VHS I took
| and people are crowding the speakers and the floor is alive,
| while nowadays so much of what I see is people all facing a DJ
| lit up by a spotlight and just standing their bobbing their
| head.
| hackernewds wrote:
| The new generation have ruined their generation being unlike
| the older ones, alas!
| Moto7451 wrote:
| "Kids these days" - My toddler, 30 years from now
| joaonmatos wrote:
| I see a lot of issues with phones as many people say, but you
| go to KitKat on your average night and you see plenty of
| people dancing.
| hackernewds wrote:
| This rings of "get off m'lawn" vibes. As a gen Z myself, I
| question what's wrong with "tiktok ravers" wanting to dress up
| and enjoy music? The whole genre will fade away if it doesn't
| curate to the next generation, as the originals get too creaky
| to dance.
| RamblingCTO wrote:
| I don't care. Before, people would look out for each other
| and treat everyone with respect, regardless of clothing and
| style. Tik Tok ravers tend do to the opposite. Let people die
| on the fucking curb, being an asshat, just go to raves to
| take all drugs at once. I'm no the only one who thinks that
| way. This is a very big debate, especially in Germany. So
| what's wrong with tik tok ravers? They bring their fucking
| consumerism into a culture that they don't care for,
| destroying it in the process.
|
| If you want to look into this more:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WauGLIefYrg
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk6wqKqygDw
|
| watch with subs if needed.
| Incipient wrote:
| >The whole genre will fade away if it doesn't curate to the
| next generation,
|
| If a genre, or ideal, "curates" to the next generation, is it
| even still that ideal? Is that not still just fading away, or
| at worst, selling out?
| capableweb wrote:
| The problem is not being dressing up, the problem is dressing
| up and then doing photo ops in areas where usually you don't
| really wanna be photographed. There always been an
| expectation of privacy on the dance floor at more underground
| places, but people seem to be getting a bit more shameless
| regarding not caring about the privacy of others.
| spacemadness wrote:
| I feel like this could have been written over a decade ago
| during the rise of instagram.
| danielfoster wrote:
| I'm not sure what sort of decline the article is referring to.
| There's not a single reference to revenues or guest count for any
| club in Berlin, nor mention of any specific club in danger of
| closing due to lack of patronage.
|
| These clubs were great while the city was struggling, but now
| that it's not, I can see why people don't wish to tolerate the
| negative externalities associated with them. Hopefully most clubs
| can find a way to integrate into today's Berlin. Some may not be
| able to and disappear. Cities aren't static beings.
|
| I've also realized I prefer underground parties or small social
| gatherings to 3-hour lines, 40 euro entrance fees, and uncertain
| door policies.
| rchaud wrote:
| The article definitely felt light on facts. For example, by how
| much did they increase the cover charge to deal with falling
| numbers?
|
| Also, didn't it occur to anyone that charging regulars more to
| offset loss of business from casuals would drive the regulars
| away as well?
| nicbou wrote:
| It went from 15 to 25EUR, roughly
| zuzu89 wrote:
| there is a recent 5-part documentary about berlin, its unique
| history since the fall of the wall, especially the nightlife,
| culture, investments and projects, housing etc
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSSQJpICzTA
| coldtea wrote:
| The ones that arbitrarily didn't let people get in when they were
| in their peak? Fuck them!
| demarq wrote:
| In the article even when they are struggling they still don't
| let people in. Not sure what they want exactly.
| hackernewds wrote:
| It's like dying brands trying not to sell at Marshalls to not
| dilute their brands.
| nikanj wrote:
| They want taxpayer subsidies, obviously
| gillesjacobs wrote:
| Exactly, when I was a student I used to go on the clubbing
| weekend trips the article describes and which are in decline.
|
| > Even Berghain, typically an anomaly because it draws crowds
| from around the world, has raised its cover charge to deal with
| rising costs. He thinks fewer Europeans are making quick
| clubbing trips to the city due to the financial hit of the
| pandemic.
|
| As a student, I had time and patience to look for another club
| for being denied entrance because I wasn't wearing leather BDSM
| harnesses after waiting in line for 2 hours. Now not so much.
|
| This is good news though, now that the economic pressure is on,
| maybe it's a good time for non-fashionistas to go raving in
| Berlin again, though I doubt the euro is stronger than scene
| snobism.
| rchaud wrote:
| But without the "right look", how will these places maintain
| their uber-kool image? /s
| browningstreet wrote:
| I used to live part time in Berlin during the recent heyday of
| these clubs. The city was a bit more anarchic and chaotic. There
| was a lot of underground things happening.
|
| I was there recently and the city felt much more subdued. Things
| got cleaned up. Lots of new housing. A bit more gentrified and
| quiet.
|
| I'm guessing the crowds aged out.
| rumori wrote:
| What I love about the tiktok generation is seeing them in small
| groups with a sizable Bluetooth boombox having fun in parks and
| outdoor places. No need for entrance fees and gatekeeping, they
| can listen to any DJ from the world live or recorded. I think
| clubs are overrated, small gatherings and ad hoc parties are way
| more interesting.
| stinos wrote:
| This isn't really 'tiktok generation'? Boomboxes are like 4
| decades older if not more and were used for that. I did this
| stuff 2 decades ago. Likewise the underground rave scene which
| crashes warehouses and whatnot with their own sound system is a
| similar principle, and again not new at all (and still exists
| today as well). In fact I'd think (wouldn't know how to verify
| though, some searches turn up nothing) that as long as there
| existed something like a sort of portable sound playing device,
| people have been doing this exact same thing.
| julianeon wrote:
| I think the closing point is pretty good: these businesses are
| complaining about declining revenues... but also turning people
| away?
|
| If that's how the nightclub business works, it's better for the
| government to stay away from subsidizing them. Let them run their
| business in their own way - but without taxpayer funding.
| hackernewds wrote:
| why would taxpayers fund them? do they fund them?
| Whooping7116 wrote:
| Taxpayers fund them because it's part of our culture that is
| worth supporting. For example, Berlin clubs were financially
| supported as part of the Neustart Kultur campaign after
| covid.
| squillion wrote:
| This.
|
| The truth is that those clubs are more elitist than the opera
| house.
| Whooping7116 wrote:
| go cry
| vinckr wrote:
| Not true. Only the most famous ones are that selective and
| the opera is still many times more expensive - plus you
| actually need a certain dresscode at the opera.
| graphe wrote:
| Berghain likes to exclude you based on your accent, if you sound
| "too American" you'll have to party elsewhere. A Berlin club
| owner bought some buildings in Detroit too and abandoned them,
| the death is felt internationally.
| https://abcnews.go.com/International/berlin-club-owners-miss...
| hackernewds wrote:
| Imagine Americans excluding Europeans for their accent. There
| would be a massive furor and lawsuit.
| taway1237 wrote:
| In this case I suggest scepticism towards the theory that
| Berlin nightclubs intentionally and openly exclude American
| tourists (a pretty wealthy class). When the only proof is a
| random HN post. This doesn't even pass the sniff test. Sounds
| more like a urban legend started by some tourist that was
| bounced for any other arbitrary reason.
| spacemadness wrote:
| Well the DJ interviewed in the NPR article that is a resident
| of Berghain is from Minneapolis originally and has a midwest
| accent so there is that.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| I'm not really a big nightclub person, but during a trip to
| Germany, got a chance to meet up with a former colleague and
| friend in Berlin who offered to take us out to a nightclub
| situated in a very old castle. One of the coolest experiences of
| my life and it's unfortunate to think that we'll lose something
| like that from our culture just because of market forces and the
| next generation's unwillingness to carry the torch when it
| doesn't align completely with their sensibilities.
|
| But such is life I guess.
| this_user wrote:
| > "Berlin nightlife is very free," he says. "It's trying to push
| artistic boundaries. It's trying to push personal boundaries.
| It's trying to let people experience music, art and culture with
| some rules. But those rules are created to have no rules."
|
| I'm not sure this guy could be more pretentious if he tried.
| Maybe they should consider that this kind of attitude might be
| part of the problem.
| cedws wrote:
| DVS1 is definitely pretentious, but he's got the skills to back
| it up. Very good DJ.
| gillesjacobs wrote:
| You will be hard pressed to find a more pretentious music scene
| than (European) techno. And I am saying this as someone who
| enjoys the music.
| deng wrote:
| Berghain for sure is not struggling, but even if they were,
| Andrea should know that you'll always have a hard time at the
| door with two guys sporting the "skinfade + northface jacket"
| combo.
| spacemadness wrote:
| So they wouldn't let Autechre in? Their loss.
| deng wrote:
| They have a separate entrance for talent.
| FFP999 wrote:
| Hold on, what's this about North Face? I thought German law
| required Helly Hansen jackets.
| cedws wrote:
| I realise Berghain et al are trying to protect themselves from
| the riff raff, but enforcing a stupid "techno uniform" and
| turning away half their potential customers for arbitrary reasons
| probably doesn't help their business. I went to Berlin earlier
| this year and didn't even try to get into Berghain because I
| don't want to waste time queuing only to be turned away.
|
| In London we have some excellent clubs that don't care whatsoever
| about what you're wearing and everybody has a great time. You buy
| a ticket, you get in, simple as that.
| aleph_minus_one wrote:
| > I realise Berghain et al are trying to protect themselves
| from the riff raff, but enforcing a stupid "techno uniform" and
| turning away half their potential customers for arbitrary
| reasons probably doesn't help their business.
|
| Berghain is very elitist in this regard. There exist lots of
| other clubs in Berlin.
| gedy wrote:
| Berghain is a sex club though, no? It's not just a place to
| dance and drink. I'd never go there myself, but I kind of get
| the point of being selective.
| cedws wrote:
| AFAIK it has an area for that, but it is primarily a music
| venue.
| spacemadness wrote:
| Uh, no. The focus is the music and dancing. It's as much a
| "sex club" as any other dance club. Source: I've been to
| Berghain.
| deng wrote:
| Actually, Berghain does it pretty well. Usually the bouncers
| walk the line and already tell people when they definitely will
| not get in. This avoids a lot of drama at the door, and people
| don't have to wait needlessly and can still comfortably go
| someplace else.
|
| Berghain is one of the most famous clubs in the world. It has
| and cultivates an underground image, which is why people want
| to go there in the first place. You don't need a "uniform", on
| the contrary, individualism is what will get you in without
| problems. Just don't be an obvious tourist who just wants to
| tick a box for their Berlin visit.
| cedws wrote:
| Berghain has created the problem of being a tourist magnet
| for itself by being exclusive. As someone who loves techno,
| I'd much rather everybody gets to join in and enjoy
| themselves instead of just those who meet the bar. As long as
| you establish rules, like no photos/videos. You can't
| "convert" people who don't get the experience.
|
| >You don't need a "uniform",
|
| Everybody says you need to wear black. Even the tourists have
| wisened up to that.
| deng wrote:
| > Everybody says you need to wear black.
|
| That is false.
|
| Look, if you just made it for everybody, it would no longer
| be a club with an underground image. Berghain is a tourist
| magnet because it simply is an unbelievable location
| straight out of a Mad Max movie, paired with a Funktion-One
| sound system that fits your head like a headphone,
| featuring the best techno DJs in the world, and you can
| spend your whole weekend there without ever leaving the
| club. They surely do not struggle financially, on the
| contrary, the owners are probably swimming in money and
| only still do it because it's fun.
|
| Besides, let me say there's lots of other clubs in Berlin
| you can go to. The article is correct that there used to be
| much, much more, but the main issue for clubs is not
| attendance, but like pretty much in every big city: rising
| rent and neighbors who complain about noise and garbage.
| cedws wrote:
| >if you just made it for everybody, it would no longer be
| a club with an underground image.
|
| It is clearly not underground because everybody knows
| about it. It only achieves the "image" through arbitrary
| discrimination. That is the least punk as you can get.
|
| None of what you said makes Berghain great goes away by
| letting more people experience it. The sound system and
| DJs will still be there.
|
| I guarantee if Berghain stopped trying to be techno
| Mecca, the riff raff would lose interest, and you
| wouldn't need the picky bouncers. There's a particular
| club I go to in London that this works perfectly well
| for.
| deng wrote:
| I said "underground image". Go find an illegal rave if
| you want underground. Go to a punk dive bar if you want
| punk. Berghain simply wants to make sure that it's not
| overrun by tourists, because once that happens, the only
| thing you can do afterwards is close shop. At least it's
| not discrimination through money like in plenty of other
| clubs. You cannot buy a VIP table at Berghain. That's
| pretty refreshing.
| Gud wrote:
| It's already over run by tourists, except now only
| tourists who can afford to look the right way on social
| media are allowed in.
| vinckr wrote:
| Is that you personal experience?
|
| In my experience there is no "right way to look" when
| going to Berghain, most people online have no idea what
| the club actually is and just keep repeating the same old
| tired clichees - like the fantasy that you have to be
| dressed all black or something to get in.
|
| In my experience the bouncer just sees if you will have a
| good time at the party or not. And that is what they
| select on. Once you worked some years at a club door you
| can see instantly who should get in and who shouldn't.
| Clothing is an indicator but its not the important one.
| Its about the look in your eyes.
| nikanj wrote:
| They have been successful in building a reputation for rejecting
| people after a multi-hour lineup, and for parties only starting
| well after midnight.
|
| Honestly I'm surprised how that business model has been so
| effective this far, I guess people do love the feeling of
| exclusivity from making the cut
| nyokodo wrote:
| Europe in general, and Germany in particular is getting old.
| Clubbing is predominantly a young person's pass time. All youth
| oriented activities will increasingly wither there as the years
| advance.
| capableweb wrote:
| Clubbing might be a young persons pass time, but techno and
| dancing is not just young people's pass time.
| Tommstein wrote:
| A few years ago I spent a week in Berlin, intending to party
| after having heard its reputation. The clubs were a parade of
| "oh, you don't know who's DJing? Can't come in" and "you're
| wearing a scarf, can't come in" (it was December, so cold and
| presumably not peak partying season). At Berghain it was
| something like "sorry, private event." Fuck Berlin clubs, if they
| want to turn down customers trying to give them money, let them
| succeed at their attempted suicide.
|
| (Having said that, while having what was supposed to be my last
| drink of the entire trip on my last night, I met an Austrian guy
| who told me about some club in walking distance he swore was
| good, so we went and it in fact was so good I missed my flight
| the next day, so it's not all clubs that are raging dickbags to
| would-be customers at the door, the exceptions are just hard to
| find.)
| xrd wrote:
| My favorite club visit was 15 years ago to jazzanova's venue. It
| was great. A great night.
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