[HN Gopher] Map: The states in favor of daylight saving time all...
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Map: The states in favor of daylight saving time all year long
Author : jerryjerryjerry
Score : 37 points
Date : 2023-11-04 19:24 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nbcnews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nbcnews.com)
| 7e wrote:
| This is backwards. In the age of pervasive digital assistants,
| there is no reason not to have two dimensional time zones
| (perhaps state level) where seven a.m. is sunrise every single
| day. That's how humans evolved. To rise with the sun. Waking up
| with the sun in a different spot in the sky every day is
| disruptive to sleep cycles. This can be accomplished by skewing
| the time every day at 3 am for a few dozen seconds. Zoom can take
| care of aligning video conferences to UTC slots.
| TheCycoONE wrote:
| Ah, that's a more extreme version of the 10 minutes a month
| approach that I have been advocating for.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| "A few dozen seconds" is more like 120 or even 180 per day at
| more distant latitudes. And then there's the whole "the sun
| doesn't rise for a long time" at extreme latitudes. So that
| would be pretty comical when 7:00 just doesn't happen. Do we
| stop the clocks?
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| DST is torture for night owls.
| elwell wrote:
| How so?
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| Most of the daytime activities are regulated by the "business
| day", starting at 9am. One day that's 9am, the next day and
| most the summer that's now an hour earlier
| standardUser wrote:
| I'm glad to see DST is winning. I know it depends a lot on where
| you live, but living in NYC it feels absolutely crushing to
| suddenly lose afternoons to the darkness just as the winter
| weather is emerging. It's like a sick joke.
|
| As for circadian rhythms, I'm sure there are many benefits to
| aligning our entire livelihoods to the annual fluctuations of the
| sun's rise and fall, but in practice everyone I know molds their
| schedule around their jobs, families and interests, not the
| sunrise.
| throw0101b wrote:
| > [...] _to suddenly lose afternoons to the darkness just as
| the winter weather is emerging._
|
| The 'sudden'-ness may be because of the time jump. If clocks
| were left alone there would be a more natural,
| continuous/gradual shift between light and dark.
| bilsbie wrote:
| It's depressing in Florida too. Just when the nice weather
| starts we lose our evenings.
| throw0101b wrote:
| So the study of how light and biology interact is called
| chronobiology:
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronobiology
|
| AFAICT, all national (US, CA) and international (EU)
| chronobiology societies, as well as many sleep researchers, state
| that from _a health perspective_ , we should (a) get rid of the
| twice-yearly DST switching, and (b) stay on Standard ("winter")
| Time year-round.
|
| > _As experts in biological clocks and sleep, we have been
| following the initiatives of the European Commission and
| California Proposition 7 to abandon the annual clock-time changes
| in spring and autumn. Although we recognize that there are
| advantages /disadvantages associated with any choice, we
| emphasize that the scientific evidence presently available
| indicates that installing perennial Standard Time (ST, or
| 'wintertime') is the best and safest option for public health.
| The negative effects of maintaining Daylight Saving Time (DST)
| will be higher._
|
| * https://srbr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/SRBR-Statement-o...
|
| > _The Canadian Society for Chronobiology is advocating for the
| elimination of twice-yearly time changes. These changes,
| particularly in the spring, are not only inconvenient and
| socially disruptive, but also are responsible for short-term
| negative impacts such as increases in acute health events and
| accidents. In place of the time changes, we advocate for year-
| round Standard Time (ST, winter time) rather than Daylight Saving
| Time (DST, summer time). ST puts the social clock closer to our
| intrinsic body clock, our circadian rhythm, which is set by the
| dawn. DST moves dawn later, and creates social jet-lag due to the
| mismatch between our biological drive to wake up near dawn and
| the social demands for us to stay up later. Year-round DST is
| predicted to increase rates of chronic diseases, decrease
| economic performance, and increase inequities in society.
| Putative advantages of year-round DST, such as energy savings and
| benefits for farmers, are not supported by evidence. Previous
| experiments with year-round DST have proven to be unpopular.
| Therefore, year-round ST should be adopted as a public health
| measure._
|
| * http://www.chronobiocanada.com/official-statements
|
| > _Daylight saving time (DST) refers to the practice of advancing
| clock time by 1 h each spring, with a return (setting back) to
| standard time (ST) each fall. Numerous sleep and circadian
| societies other than the Sleep Research Society have published
| statements in support of permanent ST, and permanent ST has also
| received support from multiple medical societies and
| organizations. This perspective dis- cusses the positive and
| negative health and economic consequences of permanent DST,
| permanent ST, and maintaining the status quo (DST for part of the
| year). After a thorough review of the existing literature, the
| SRS advocates the adoption of permanent ST._
|
| * https://sleepresearchsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/...
|
| > [...] _Although chronic effects of remaining in daylight saving
| time year-round have not been well studied, daylight saving time
| is less aligned with human circadian biology--which, due to the
| impacts of the delayed natural light /dark cycle on human
| activity, could result in circadian misalignment, which has been
| associated in some studies with increased cardiovascular disease
| risk, metabolic syndrome and other health risks. It is,
| therefore, the position of the American Academy of Sleep Medicine
| that these seasonal time changes should be abolished in favor of
| a fixed, national, year-round standard time._
|
| * https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.8780
|
| And this does take into account different chronotypes (e.g.,
| "night owls"):
|
| * https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0094...
|
| Of course a lot of the general public seems to lean towards year-
| round DST (e.g., "so I can do stuff after work"):
|
| > _The chronobiology community advocates ending the biannual
| practice in many countries of adjusting their clocks to observe
| Daylight Saving Time (DST). Many governments are actively
| considering abandoning this practice. While sleep and circadian
| experts advocate the adoption of year-round standard time, most
| jurisdictions are instead considering permanent DST. In guiding
| advocacy, it is useful to understand the factors that lead
| governments and citizens to prefer the various options._ [...]
|
| * https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35382618/
| throw0101b wrote:
| If you personally lean toward year-round ST, you may be
| interested in:
|
| * https://savestandardtime.com
| standardUser wrote:
| Isn't the real issue the general start times of jobs, classes
| and other activities? We could all wake up at Noon and go to
| sleep at 8am if that's what it took to match the biologically
| ideal scenario. All that matters is the difference between the
| biologically ideal wake time and a socially required wake time.
| Not what the clock says.
| tzs wrote:
| The problem with permanent DST in northern states is that it
| means for much of winter the morning commute is in darkness. Yes,
| it means more light during the evening commute, but the morning
| commute needs light more than does the evening commute.
|
| That's because generally road conditions are more likely to be
| worse in the morning than in the evening. It's generally colder
| in the mornings meaning more chances of ice on the roads. There's
| also more likely to be snow on the roads--by the evening you've
| had a day's traffic helping clear the roads.
|
| Also in the morning you've got significant overlap between the
| morning adult commute and children walking or biking to school,
| so by making the morning commute happen in darkness you are
| combining the time when road conditions are worst, the time when
| you've got the most pedestrians and cyclists, and the time you've
| got the worst lighting.
|
| Schools generally get out well before the adult evening commute
| starts, so if that has to take place in the dark at least you
| don't have nearly as many pedestrians and cyclists to deal with.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| Seems like changing school start time would be a simple fix for
| that.
| tzs wrote:
| That might fix the problem of kids walking and biking in the
| dark, but it still leaves the issue of the morning being the
| time when driving is the most difficult.
|
| Also I'm not sure you can push school start time back far
| enough to matter. School hours are generally shorter than
| adult work hours (especially for elementary school), so in a
| family where both parents work away from home you are going
| to have some time where the kids are out of school but the
| parents aren't home. I suspect that "kids get home a couple
| hours before the parents do" works out better than "kids
| leave home an hour after the parents".
| _ph_ wrote:
| And you have basically undone the effect of permanent DST.
| MightyBuzzard wrote:
| No, the problem is that DST is the incorrect time. If you want
| to stop changing the clocks, you set them all to the correct
| time and leave them alone. You do not declare "We shall be
| wrong from now on!"
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| DST should just be amortized along the duration.
|
| While people complain about whether or not they'd prefer to
| have light in the morning or evening, the real problem is
| trying to adjust your sleep schedule by an hour in one fell
| swoop. That made sense when you had to remember manually adjust
| any time-keeping devices, but digital clocks can mostly adjust
| themselves these days, so it would be fairly trivial to just
| have it move with the light, which would make the sleep
| adjustment much less painful.
| jcranmer wrote:
| The US actually did experiment with year-round DST during the oil
| embargo in the 70s. Popular support for year-round DST cratered
| when people actually experienced what DST is like in winter. I
| fully expect the same thing to open nowadays if permanent DST
| ever becomes a thing... DST in winter just isn't fun.
| acwan93 wrote:
| It's also entirely possible if permanent DST passes and gets
| repealed (again) we'll be back to where we are now 60 years
| later.
| natebc wrote:
| This is exactly how this will play out. Permanent standard
| time would have a much greater chance of sticking, also ...
| it's standard!
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _DST in winter just isn 't fun_
|
| Says the people who get up earlier in the morning and don't
| like a dark start to their day.
|
| On the other hand, plenty of people don't want it getting dark
| by 4 pm in the winter, and vastly prefer their extra hour of
| sunlight in the late afernoon. That extra hour _is_ fun for
| them (including me).
|
| From my viewpoint, 4 pm darkness is just depressing and crushes
| the soul, in a way that morning darkness doesn't (you get to
| watch the sunrise!).
| internet2000 wrote:
| This is 100% an opinion. The worst part of this debate is
| that the only indicator of which side you'll support is
| whether you're a morning person or not.
|
| As a morning person myself, give me standard time year round
| or give me death.
| cpeterso wrote:
| Let's compromise at 30 minutes between standard time and
| DST. Everyone would be happy to drop the time changes and
| neither side is happy with the new time, but at least it's
| a less severe outcome for people during their off season.
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| If you're stuck in an office until 6 it doesn't matter if
| dusk is at 4 or 5 pm anyway.
| aimor wrote:
| That's interesting, I didn't know about this.
|
| Maybe it's time to implement Winter Hours, a 35 hour work week
| from December through February.
| jwie wrote:
| Perhaps we should modify our schedules rather than altering the
| time the clock shows. The time doesn't really change.
|
| We should abolish savings time and stick to standard time year
| round.
|
| The real arguments for savings time are for economic (ie
| consumption) reasons. More daylight later means more spending
| after work.
|
| If you look at who supports and lobbies for savings time it
| should be clear who the enemy is.
| zzo38computer wrote:
| > Perhaps we should modify our schedules rather than altering
| the time the clock shows. The time doesn't really change. We
| should abolish savings time and stick to standard time year
| round.
|
| I agree with you. I think that permanent standard time would be
| better (although permanent daylight saving time would still be
| better than changing the clock twice every year, I think
| permanent standard time would be better than permanent daylight
| saving time), and that you do not need to do your
| schedules/stuffs only according to clocks.
|
| Actually, I think that the way that it should be done is by
| time zones based on mean solar time.
|
| > The real arguments for savings time are for economic (ie
| consumption) reasons. More daylight later means more spending
| after work. If you look at who supports and lobbies for savings
| time it should be clear who the enemy is.
|
| I am not well aware of who supports and lobbies for savings
| time, although you may be right.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| Just eliminate DST. Are we in such post-truth era that we'll even
| lie to ourselves about the time? Tell ourselves it's an hour
| later when we know it's not, as if we embrace lies and lying so
| readily? Why add a layer of complexity; just make the time
| reflect the position of the Sun, and adjust your schedule as
| desired.
|
| I know we've used DST for a long time, but at least it was a
| special (albiet annual) thing, not a permanent state.
| crazygringo wrote:
| > _and adjust your schedule as desired_
|
| Because individuals can't. Society's schedule is ultimately set
| by schools, and employers mostly have hours that accomodate
| parents' kids' needs.
|
| The reality is that it's easier to change the clock than shift
| school's schedules and get everyone else to shift their
| schedules too.
|
| What the heck does "lying" have to do with anything? Solar noon
| is exactly 12:00 locally at only some vanishingly small slivers
| of the earth's surface. Clock time is a human convention, and
| we're free to fiddle with it however we like.
| bluGill wrote:
| It is a way to pretend to do something without doing it and thus
| point fingers. If politicians really wanted to do something
| standard time year round is legal and could be done anytime. But
| daylight savings time year round isn't legal so they pass that so
| they don't have to stand for anything.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| My idea:
|
| First, eliminate DST completely. The time should reflect the
| position of the Sun, and forget the complexity and IMHO bizarre
| self-delusion, a bad habit.
|
| Second, use a time half-way between Mountain and Central Time
| (i.e., on the half-hour), and create a North American Time. Give
| the entire US a single time zone. Imagine all the headaches
| simplified away for coordinating; communicating; scheduling;
| conceptualizing all time across current time zones, like the
| duration of your plane flight, etc. etc. -- all that conversion
| and complexity will vanish. 'I'll call at 4' means something
| crystal clear; if you're in Denver, 'be at the SF office for the
| 5pm meeting' is transparently comprehendable - you know how long
| your day will be, how long you have to get there.
|
| Yes, people in NY will have sunny early mornings - they like to
| get up early and can enjoy the more city lights. People in LA
| will have beautiful late sunsets - they can have a late dinner
| and watch it set even in December. (Yes, I'm snidely dismissing
| their concerns; I'm having some fun with it.) It's only half an
| hour worse than prior distortions.
|
| Best if Canada and Mexico will join in - notice I called it
| _North American Time_. The line of current the Central-Mountain
| time zone border goes right through the center of Mexico; it
| might work very well there (but someone from Mexico will know
| more). The challenge is outlying lands, such as New Foundland,
| Alaska, Puerto Rico, and Hawaii. They may prefer special time
| zones because of the larger distortions. Nothing is perfect.
|
| China, which is very roughly the same distance east-west as the
| US, has one time zone. Where is it accurate - central China or
| Beijing? And how has it worked out?
|
| (Or use Mountain or Central Time, if the half-hour will cause too
| many problems.)
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| Not going to work, same reason
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time didn't
| catch on.
| jonhohle wrote:
| Wasn't Swatch Internet Time just a marketing gimmick? Did
| anyone seriously think it would be adopted by any standards
| body or government?
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| DST is also a marketing gimmick and look at global
| adoption, even in tropical countries where it's entirely
| useless.
| jonhohle wrote:
| Or just use GMT and adjust scheduling local things based on
| local daylight. Phrases like working 9-5 wouldn't make sense
| for most anymore, but who cares. Having the date change in the
| middle of the day might be odd, but people working night shifts
| deal with that already.
| wolverine876 wrote:
| I think we need to match solar time approximately. The words
| 'today' and 'tomorrow' and 'noon', for example, have both
| clock and solar meanings that need to be roughly aligned.
| bhandziuk wrote:
| A single time zone seems like it creates a lot of problems.
| Like if I'm on the east coast scheduling a meeting with someone
| on the west coast what's the fastest way to convey to me I'm
| about to schedule a meeting that's way to early. Right now I
| can see that the meeting will be at 5am for them and I can
| intuit that's to early.
|
| How do people in Western China feel about this situation, which
| they live right now?
| zzo38computer wrote:
| > First, eliminate DST completely. The time should reflect the
| position of the Sun, and forget the complexity and IMHO bizarre
| self-delusion, a bad habit.
|
| I agree. However, while sundials will use apparent solar time
| (and should not be disregarded), the time zones and clocks
| should be based on mean solar time, in my opinion.
|
| > Second, use a time half-way between Mountain and Central Time
| (i.e., on the half-hour), and create a North American Time.
| Give the entire US a single time zone.
|
| I disagree. If you need to coordinate time between different
| places, you can use UTC instead of mean solar time. That is
| what UTC is for, and UTC can be useful for other purposes too.
| When specifying the time you can write "Z" on the end to
| indicate UTC.
| kj4ips wrote:
| I live in East Tennessee, where a permanent DST situation would
| be the worst case for us, but are seat of government is in
| Central Time.
| madphilosopher wrote:
| When I worked an office IT job, for a few years, I asked my boss
| if I could come in an hour early in the winter. In actual
| practice, I kept my watch on DST and woke up and commuted to work
| at the same time relative to the Sun. I watched my co-workers
| struggle for a week adjusting their bodies to their time change.
| I had no time change to deal with. I got to study (skills
| upgrade) in the quiet before anyone else came to work, and I got
| to leave an hour early every day compared to the others. I drove
| home in the daylight. Truly, there were no downsides for me.
|
| Permanent daylight savings time---I recommend practicing it even
| when the society around you does not.
| bigDinosaur wrote:
| Am I missing something or are discussions around DST frequently
| entirely missing the point? It exists because our work schedules
| are completely inflexible, so no matter whether you do permanent
| or not you're fundamentally running into issues that work start
| and end times are fixed, so it'll always be trading off against
| something. The real solution is instead to do something about our
| fixed schedules to make them more flexible.
|
| Am I wrong (genuinely I may just be missing something here)?
| canjobear wrote:
| Option 1: Change the time on the clocks.
|
| Option 2: Fundamentally change the structure of employment
| throughout the entire economy.
|
| One of these is easier.
| seti0Cha wrote:
| Our work schedules are largely inflexible because of the need
| to coordinate with others. A teacher cannot shift their hours
| unless the students do so as well. The students cannot shift
| their hours if their parents can't provide care under the new
| schedule. The parents can't shift their hours if they have
| scheduled responsibilities such opening stores, making
| deliveries, etc. In short, a great many jobs require that
| others maintain fixed schedules in order to operate
| efficiently, so flexible hours is not a general solution.
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