[HN Gopher] We are investigating reports of degraded performance
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       We are investigating reports of degraded performance
        
       Author : contingencies
       Score  : 107 points
       Date   : 2023-11-03 18:55 UTC (4 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.githubstatus.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.githubstatus.com)
        
       | __turbobrew__ wrote:
       | 404 on all PRs -> degraded
       | 
       | My definition of degradation is different.
        
         | edgyquant wrote:
         | I would say it's degraded. I still see I'm logged in, can still
         | see the org screen and even the repo (on and off.). Don't think
         | degraded implies anything good. Just that something's are
         | working others aren't
        
       | SoftTalker wrote:
       | I like how "Every request returns a 404" == "degraded
       | performance"
        
         | CodeCompost wrote:
         | Degraded in relation to 99.90/ spread across the year.
        
           | akdor1154 wrote:
           | How on earth did you make that typo? I'm honestly intrigued,
           | do you use an ime?
        
         | agilob wrote:
         | It should load faster if there's nothing to load
        
           | methodical wrote:
           | They should have called it upgraded performance. The 404 page
           | loads blisteringly quick!
        
           | flukus wrote:
           | If nothing loads nothing gets cached and you can get in a
           | cycle of very slow 404s.
           | 
           | The current abomination I'm working on avoids this by caching
           | the errors and serving them for several hours...
        
             | agilob wrote:
             | One of the worst outages I witnessed was due to negative
             | DNS caching on the most outer router that took the company
             | a few (3 or 5) working days to fix *after* issue was
             | identified.
        
             | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
             | Is this a designed self-cache poisoning? Abomination
             | indeed.
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | At least it _did_ return a response.
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | Github is becoming too important. A routine backup system is
       | needed, something like archive.org, that backs up important
       | Github projects.
        
         | hipadev23 wrote:
         | That exists on every dev's machine.
        
           | Animats wrote:
           | In theory, the code is there, but putting a project back
           | together in a hurry after trouble at Github is non-trivial.
           | Especially if the build process uses proprietary stuff such
           | as "GitHub actions". The issues and discussions are all
           | Github-only, too.
        
             | jrockway wrote:
             | The source code of the actions is in your repo. This is
             | more of the problem of relying on proprietary software; if
             | the company that makes it dies, you die too!
        
             | misnome wrote:
             | It's crazy that there is no common CI spec. Every single
             | platform is completely different.
             | 
             | Last time I tried Act it had some pretty severe
             | limitations. Perhaps I should take it for another spin.
        
               | hotnfresh wrote:
               | The common CI spec is sh & make, but everybody hates
               | those I guess.
               | 
               | Git hook management's really awkward. Even with tools to
               | synchronize them (... all of them? You may want some that
               | are just for your own use) it's a pain. "I want these
               | hooks to run, in order, but only when a merge commit
               | happens on a machine with such-and-such designation, and
               | I want it to run the task on a _different_ machine, but
               | we need to make sure that runner 's a Windows box
               | because..." that just sucks to self-manage, and yeah,
               | there's no standard for expressing that, you're bound to
               | incompatible solutions.
               | 
               | Secret management's a hellscape and everyone's always
               | glad when someone else solves the problem for you. That
               | alone is like 50% of the value of Github Actions.
        
               | crabbone wrote:
               | > sh & make
               | 
               | Are we talking GNU Make, nmake, BSD Make? (Isn't this why
               | autotools exist in the first place -- to make something
               | allegedly cross-platform for different flavors of Make)?
               | 
               | I get bitten repeatedly by sh being a symlink to
               | different Shells, even though I've been using it for many
               | years. The most recent piece of insanity being "cd foo
               | bar" resulting in an error, but changing to foo directory
               | while in some other version simply resulting in an error.
               | 
               | Also, error reporting. It's way too broken to consider sh
               | a reliable tool. I wish things could be done with very
               | simple tools and all this complexity around them was
               | unnecessary. Unfortunately, here, this complexity while
               | isn't unavoidable is indeed warranted due to abysmal
               | quality of the simple tools.
        
               | misnome wrote:
               | > The common CI spec is sh & make, but everybody hates
               | those I guess.
               | 
               | These aren't very good at some of the things you actually
               | want to use a CI for, other than the literal "build" step
               | (which probably is using them anyway, or the per-language
               | equivalent).
               | 
               | Coordinating _and visualising_ multiple builds where some
               | parts run in parallel (e.g. multiplatform), or parts that
               | might be different or skipped depending on how the flow
               | was triggered. Managing caches and artifacts between
               | stages and between runs. Managing running in different
               | contexts, including generic shell and across multiple
               | machine types. A consistent way to manage and inject
               | secrets. Reusing common parts across different CI
               | workflows.
               | 
               | I suppose you could have a parent job taking up a full
               | slot to run a Makefile that launches and manages the
               | running of jobs on other nodes, but imagine you'd have to
               | step into some toolset that abstracts some of it, and
               | hope that is shared development or you end up with an in-
               | house convoluted nightmare of shell scripts.
               | 
               | "Something DAG and yaml shaped" is about the closest
               | convergence we have gotten, and the closest that it looks
               | like we'll get.
        
               | Ayesh wrote:
               | My approach is to write bash scripts that do the heavy
               | lifting, and use of pipes and output redirection to
               | coordinate the individual "steps". For example, one
               | script would run the test suite, and another would
               | process the code coverage reports.
               | 
               | In CI, it now just needs to run the scripts in the
               | correct order.
        
               | crabbone wrote:
               | I understand the sentiment, but I think it's phrased
               | incorrectly.
               | 
               | What's needed is a formally defined CI spec(s). Common is
               | bad for the same reason any monopoly is bad. Formally-
               | defined solves some of the same problems common is
               | solving where it's important to be protected from random
               | failures of the sole provider, but it also makes it, at
               | least theoretically, easier to have multiple providers.
               | 
               | This is similar to how C is different from Make. C is a
               | standard that anyone can implement, while make is a weird
               | language defined by its implementation that some tried to
               | reimplement, but by doing so only increased the insanity
               | of compatibility issues.
               | 
               | Of course there were multiple attempts to make common /
               | standard definitions for general-purpose automation
               | tools. Make is one of those, Ant is another one, and
               | there's plenty more. I'm not sure why none really sticks
               | around to the point of becoming a universally accepted
               | tool / standard. Some reasons I can think about are:
               | languages build special-purpose automation tools around
               | their implementation which are often the selling point of
               | the language, an attempt to sell it to developers, so the
               | authors are disincentivized from making them general-
               | purpose. There isn't a consensus on what such tools
               | should do and what kind of guarantees they need to offer.
               | Some such guarantees may come with a price, sometimes
               | very steep price, so would be hard to sell. Eg. something
               | like tup offers highly reliable reproducible and isolated
               | builds, but at a cost of complexity and resources,
               | whereas something like Make offers no guarantees, but is
               | easier to get started with and to be productive.
               | 
               | Maybe it could be possible to extract just the component
               | of CI that deals with the "skeleton" of automation,
               | defining abstract tasks, dependencies between them etc...
               | but then immediately there'd be plenty of systems that'd
               | try to complement this automation with their own
               | (proprietary) extensions which would circle us back to
               | the initial problem...
        
               | dogleash wrote:
               | The business case for CI vendors is at odds with a common
               | spec.
               | 
               | Otherwise any customer who gets a bill for more than a
               | few dollars will replace them with a VM and copy of
               | Jenkins.
        
         | antoineMoPa wrote:
         | If only there was a decentralized system to allow version
         | management of code...
        
           | fragmede wrote:
           | You'd still need some sort of centralized... hub to
           | communicate and manage things.
        
             | rglullis wrote:
             | Like the internet itself?
        
               | uncomputation wrote:
               | The internet is not centralized. It is literally the
               | largest decentralized network in existence. A network of
               | networks with no central hub.
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | Oh so you haven't heard of Cloudflare?
        
               | rglullis wrote:
               | Cloudflare, AWS, Azure, Google Cloud and Whatever-is-
               | used-by-China: people make fun of the IBM guy who said
               | "the world has a market for maybe 5 computers", but he
               | was right all along...
        
             | agilob wrote:
             | git on ipfs and issues stored in a literally plaintext file
        
             | asdff wrote:
             | Why do you need a centralized hub? Most repos on github are
             | entirely unrelated to eachother. Repos can be self hosted.
             | Issues can be tracked on your own website. You don't need a
             | megacorp to run a website. If you are writing open source
             | tooling you are more than qualified to roll your own here.
        
           | dleslie wrote:
           | Sadly, GitHub doesn't store its value-add assets within the
           | repository itself; so all of the PR conversations, Gists,
           | Issues, and so forth aren't within git itself.
        
             | davisr wrote:
             | That's by-design, and it's why no one should ever use
             | Microsoft GitHub -- because you don't own your data,
             | Microsoft does.
        
               | lolinder wrote:
               | It's the way the open source options work too (GitLab,
               | Gitea, Forgejo), and they don't have any sinister motive
               | for that--it's just easier to build that way.
        
               | dleslie wrote:
               | There's git-bug, which is in-repo.
               | 
               | https://github.com/MichaelMure/git-bug/
        
             | layer8 wrote:
             | Very good reason not to use those, if they are critical to
             | your business.
        
             | crdrost wrote:
             | This speaks to one of my secret desires, I've worked at a
             | bunch of small companies now where the workflows were all
             | ad-hoc and I feel like even at bigger companies there are
             | persistent failures to "understand Git"... one of the most
             | pernicious being that, most companies have a modernist
             | "this is prod, it is one place running one codebase"
             | approach, Git is postmodernist "here is this project, there
             | are many branches showing different perspectives on what
             | this code could be", most CI/CD systems in my opinion sit
             | at the interface between these and choose the wrong side to
             | be on, they choose the Git side -- "we ask every branch,
             | 'do you want to deploy yourself to prod?' and if it says
             | yes by virtue of having a CI.yaml file with a branch filter
             | naming itself to be run, then we deploy it to prod."
             | 
             | So what I want is kind of to build a company that's just
             | strongly opinionated about that... "everything is in one
             | Git repository, the `main` branch is authoritative for ACLs
             | and CI/CD config, the bugtracker writes issues directly
             | into that repository and has an ACL role that allows it to
             | do that, the RFC widget writes your code design docs
             | directly in there as well, we do rebase but we merge
             | without fast-forwarding, you have to use semver and it
             | works like this..." and probably nobody will use our
             | offering because "GitHub is more trustworthy" but "if
             | anybody does they'll love us" haha
        
           | __MatrixMan__ wrote:
           | I realize you're talking about git, but I think it's also
           | pretty important to have a place where users can submit
           | issues and dev's can say "it's fixed in version XYZ", these
           | are not features of git.
           | 
           | I've been meaning to give radicle a try.
        
             | chupapimunyenyo wrote:
             | https://youryoure.com/?apostrophe
        
             | miki123211 wrote:
             | Fossil does this within the repo, maybe we need a way for
             | Git to do so too.
        
               | __MatrixMan__ wrote:
               | Rather than making it a feature of git, it would probably
               | be sufficient to have a tool that packed issues and PRs
               | from the forge into the repo (in preparation to be
               | migrated) and then unpacked them into the forge's API on
               | the other side.
        
               | Ayesh wrote:
               | ... Or use Fossil?
        
               | rkeene2 wrote:
               | You can use ChiselApp.com (which I maintain) to host your
               | Fossil as well, and since every clone has the same data
               | (minus passwords) it's trivial to migrate.
        
             | asdff wrote:
             | You can host your own on your own site. Most major open
             | source projects have their own website anyhow. They really
             | don't need to be on github or gitlab to begin with, just
             | roll it yourself like the rest of your website. The only
             | reason why people do it is because its a meme at this point
             | to have a github (and even gitlab, if only as a foil to
             | github).
        
         | paulddraper wrote:
         | My hard drive.
        
         | bogota wrote:
         | Host a backup of your own code? It's easy and can be done on a
         | rpi. I wrote a go program in 1000 lines that automatically does
         | this for me. And then I actually started using that as the main
         | source and pushing the backup to github.
         | 
         | It also pulls down anything i star into a different folder
         | which get a sync one a day. The rest get a sync every hour.
        
           | 369548684892826 wrote:
           | There's also a tool called myrepos[0] that can be cronjobbed
           | to keep local repos up to date
           | 
           | 0: https://myrepos.branchable.com/
        
             | bogota wrote:
             | I like mine better because i wrote it :)
        
         | shepherdjerred wrote:
         | I assume that there are some archives of public GitHub
         | repositories somewhere.
        
         | swatcoder wrote:
         | I know this a greybeard's fantasy and that most people working
         | today were trained not to bother, but: _important things should
         | not have GitHub as a failure point_.
         | 
         | Hobby projects and today's work? Sure. Point straight at GitHub
         | and hack away. And when it goes down, get yourself a coffee.
         | 
         | But everything that's anywhere near production should have
         | already pointed those github requests to a mirror or other tool
         | in your own controlled ecosystem. The status of GitHub should
         | have nothing to do with whether you're customers are getting
         | what they're paying you for. Same goes for Docker containers
         | and every other kind of remotely distributed dependency.
        
           | willsmith72 wrote:
           | It's not that black and white. Where do you draw the line on
           | what can and can't be a failure point?
           | 
           | My cloud provider is probably an acceptable point. If every
           | AWS region goes down I'm not going to have a spare cloud
           | provider.
           | 
           | What about an auth provider? Do I need a backup there?
           | 
           | What about CI, do I need multiple CI systems?
           | 
           | 3rd party search services, realtime messaging services, the
           | list goes on.
           | 
           | For 1% of systems, you need backups for all of these (or to
           | not use anything external). The other 99%, building backups
           | for every one of these systems is a losing business strategy.
           | 
           | Some of them sure, but which those are will vary based on the
           | context. It's not as simple as having a backup for "every
           | other kind of remotely distributed dependency."
        
             | GrinningFool wrote:
             | That's all besides the point isn't it?
             | 
             | Everything you mentioned can be replaced. Your source code
             | can't.
        
               | wongarsu wrote:
               | It depends on the Recovery Time Objective we are talking
               | about. For example at our company there are daily backups
               | of both our dependencies and those used in the build
               | process. If github had a prolonged outage or accidentally
               | deleted all their data we could set up a gitea with all
               | our code within hours, and get a replacement for Github
               | Actions working within days.
               | 
               | But that takes longer than the expected duration of this
               | outage, and is a lot of work. It's not like we have a
               | standby gitea we can just seamlessly switch to, so we are
               | still hit by this outage. On the other hand for build
               | dependencies we do have a standby mirror.
        
             | callalex wrote:
             | I draw that line at around 99.9% availability.
        
               | BHSPitMonkey wrote:
               | Availability is a measured outcome. How's it gonna help
               | you quantify your various risks _before_ they become a
               | problem so you can spend your mitigation time wisely?
        
               | callalex wrote:
               | I was too brief, I meant I would add redundancy
               | reactively where there was none there before if a service
               | I'm using can't consistently keep 4 9's. You are correct
               | that being proactive is more complicated.
        
           | daxaxelrod wrote:
           | Interesting perspective, disagree on one central tenant. Even
           | though Github holds production code, it is not production.
           | Built artifacts and the machines running those artifacts is
           | production. When Github goes down, which it rarely does, it
           | just means developers cant sync for a couple hours, no
           | different than if someone works offline. The temptation to
           | increase internal devops complexity should not be an
           | automatic immune response when a service goes down, it comes
           | with all sorts of hidden costs.
        
           | andrewaylett wrote:
           | It's not entirely clear to me whether you're talking about
           | using GitHub for your own production tooling, or as a source
           | for some arbitraty third party component. If it's the latter,
           | then I completely agree with you. Use a read-through proxying
           | package repository. I don't care if you run it yourself or if
           | you pay a provider, but don't pull stuff from the origin
           | every time you build.
           | 
           | In the general case, adoping an external system will bring
           | with it greater reliability than trying to run stuff oneself.
           | The differences are that you don't get to choose your
           | maintenance windows, and you can't do anything to fix it
           | yourself.
           | 
           | Take care about who you pick, and own the depencency, because
           | you've put a part of your own reputation in the hands of your
           | provider.
           | 
           | Now, if you pick GitHub as a part of your controlled
           | ecosystem -- which is totally reasonable, if it fits your
           | use-case -- then you _still_ shouldn 't be pulling arbitrary
           | stuff from places outwith your control. GitHub has package
           | repository tooling that you can use :). Although it's not
           | entirely clear to me that it's as suitable for third-party
           | dependencies as tools like Artifactory or Nexus.
        
             | swatcoder wrote:
             | Yeah, I was talking about access to third-party
             | dependencies, which I had assumed was the crisis the OP had
             | in mind.
             | 
             | I've since read many sibling replies fret over build
             | automation or source code storage, but some downtime in
             | build automation will rarely damage customers and (my
             | goodness) I hope people aren't trusting the only copy of
             | all their IP to a business partner and that they always
             | have a very recent backup _somewhere_ they own themselves.
        
               | andrewaylett wrote:
               | Some things are disappointingly hard to back up properly.
               | Source code isn't really in that category.
               | 
               | There's still a question of how strong an ownership we
               | need -- for example, my mail server is owned by OVH, and
               | its backups are sent to rsync.net. I consider that to be
               | sufficent ownership of backups. I'm much more likely to
               | lose my files than they are.
               | 
               | I'm sure that GitHub also have backups, but they're not
               | for the benefit of their customers.
        
         | ajsfoux234 wrote:
         | https://archive.softwareheritage.org/browse/ has some
         | repositories archived.
        
         | lmarcos wrote:
         | In the context of companies: if you don't have your own cache
         | of github,npm, etc., you're doing it wrong.
        
       | andrelaszlo wrote:
       | git push         ERROR: Repository not found.         fatal:
       | Could not read from remote repository.                  Please
       | make sure you have the correct access rights         and the
       | repository exists.
       | 
       | That scared me for a minute. ':D
        
         | misnome wrote:
         | Yeah, retriggered our deploy pipeline a few times, checked
         | downdetector and no reports, logged in to machine and verified
         | external connection.
         | 
         | Sighed, assumed I was on the first wave of an incident on top
         | of their current slack incident, then logged off for the day.
        
       | droptablemain wrote:
       | My repos were coming up as 404s. I was wondering if I had been
       | canned...
        
         | shepherdjerred wrote:
         | Hah I had the same thought
        
         | __MatrixMan__ wrote:
         | The "nothing to see here" approach to access control has a lot
         | of weird culture-consequences. I wish software would just
         | address me like the peasant that I am, rather than trying to
         | gaslight me into believing that my artificially limited world
         | is the whole one.
        
           | openthc wrote:
           | If there's nothing wrong with me, maybe there's something
           | wrong with the universe...The universe is a spheroid region,
           | 705 meters in diameter.
        
           | dilap wrote:
           | I think you don't want to reveal the presence of projects by
           | name or not -- just the name of repo could be sensitive info,
           | potentially.
        
             | tmpz22 wrote:
             | Except they know you've accessed it previously. Its a
             | different threat model that leaves room for a little more
             | agency to be given to the user.
        
               | malfist wrote:
               | I think if they can't access the server for
               | authentication, it's likely they can't retrieve history
               | either.
               | 
               | Or know which user to pull history for
        
               | darkwater wrote:
               | Cookies? When you are not authenticated, it's still a 1st
               | party.
        
             | mro_name wrote:
             | It shouldn't be on github then. At all.
        
               | mp05 wrote:
               | Why the downvotes? If you want real security, self-host
               | your Git repo.
        
               | lanstin wrote:
               | Which is neither difficult nor against the design of git.
        
               | cyberax wrote:
               | I'll bite. So you want to host a git repo. You need to
               | manage SSH keys then, and then you'll want bug tracking
               | and PRs for code reviews. This means that you need to
               | host something like Gitlab, which is not free if you want
               | features like SSO.
        
               | dboreham wrote:
               | Gitea has SSO and is free.
        
               | 3c6bYDXLMj wrote:
               | No true Scotsman! Throw your computer into a lake! Write
               | your new darknet market ecommerce platform on sticky
               | notes!
               | 
               | Why is "security" always a pissing constant with some
               | people. I'd swear that I'd be condemned for locking my
               | house at night instead of simply encasing myself in
               | concrete for all eternity like Chernobyl. After all, it's
               | more secure!
        
           | kodapoda wrote:
           | I think if you are in a corporate account and have correct
           | access permissions to the account (i.e. URL namespace) it
           | should _not_ show 404. It 's just super confusing.
        
         | ignoramous wrote:
         | We were warned multi-deploys with big changes were incoming:
         | "For lack of a better term, some big shit is coming at GitHub
         | Universe." - Thomas Dohmke, CEO
         | 
         | https://twitter.com/ashtom/status/1720319071567421679
        
         | ellisv wrote:
         | Not mutually exclusive - GitHub could be down AND you could be
         | canned!
        
           | APhoenixRises wrote:
           | No joke, but this is exactly my situation.
        
         | taf2 wrote:
         | Ah I was thinking it was southwest wifi!
        
         | dekhn wrote:
         | Well, that explains a problem in an interview I was just
         | administering (the interview code sample downloads a file from
         | github).
         | 
         | Guess I can't treat github like a CDN.
        
       | MuffinFlavored wrote:
       | Why can't they just roll it back /s
       | 
       | Who decided to deploy something risky on a Friday /s
       | 
       | Why don't they have lower environments like QA to test it in
       | before going to production /s
        
       | Eji1700 wrote:
       | Once again proving that Monday is "whenever you push to
       | production"
        
       | methodical wrote:
       | PR really spun gold when they decided to label everything from
       | every single one of their databases getting deleted and backups
       | nuked to intermittent connectivity issues as "degraded". Who
       | exactly are they making feel better by not calling a spade a
       | spade?
        
         | skeaker wrote:
         | Shareholders, generally.
        
         | brookst wrote:
         | People will take issue with any wording. Why try to find the
         | exact right words each time when people will have exactly the
         | same complaints?
        
           | methodical wrote:
           | I take issue with clear PR-speak trying to make the issue
           | lesser than it actually is. When you're having an outage-
           | call it an outage. Having a feature completely unusable and
           | labeling it as "degraded performance" is clearly twisting
           | your words to lessen the outwardly perception of the scale of
           | the problem.
        
       | WolfeReader wrote:
       | I cannot wait for Gitea, Forgejo, and GitLab to start federating
       | with each other via ActivityPub. Then we can all take one more
       | step away from a corporate-controlled internet.
        
         | rglullis wrote:
         | That would surely be nice and helpful, but why do we need to
         | wait for it?
         | 
         | Even my open source projects in github are just mirrors from
         | the "real place" of work: gitlab or my own gitea instance. If
         | github is down, it is a minor inconvenience but I can still
         | work.
        
         | dgivney wrote:
         | I'm a little confused, Gitlab is a publically traded
         | corporation?
         | 
         | https://www.google.com/finance/quote/GTLB:NASDAQ
        
           | ironmagma wrote:
           | Does that matter if it federates openly? Anyone can.
        
           | WolfeReader wrote:
           | GitLab, Gitea, and Forgejo are applications that can be
           | easily self-hosted. One of those also has a corporation
           | associated with it, but that has minimal effect in this case.
        
         | perihelions wrote:
         | - _' one more step away from a corporate-controlled internet"_
         | 
         | Downvote me to grey-world if you like, but I think everyone's
         | crazy to put all their code infrastructure in the hands of
         | fucking _Microsoft_. Especially literal free open-source
         | software. Who do you think Microsoft is? What do you know of
         | Microsoft 's history and their core values (they're "embrace,
         | extinguish & exsanguinate"). It's like giving fucking Sauron
         | safekeeping of your power-rings in Mordor, oh we have great
         | infrastructure for safe ring storage here, very secure, the
         | orcs are really expert guards.
        
           | rsuelzer wrote:
           | But, I like the stock.
        
             | layer8 wrote:
             | Now imagine having your shares managed by a Microsoft bank
             | -- maybe in SharePoint. ;)
        
           | BHSPitMonkey wrote:
           | What exactly is the risk? That they'll stop providing the
           | services they sell today? The design of git makes switching
           | to another primary remote very easy (granted, most users
           | probably don't have good habits around backing up data from
           | Issues/Wiki/Releases and risk losing that data if it's taken
           | away suddenly -- but the repo itself is durable and portable
           | on a whim.
        
             | eviks wrote:
             | > (granted, most users probably don't have good habits
             | around backing up data from Issues/Wiki/Releases and risk
             | losing that data if it's taken away suddenly
             | 
             | so it's actually very hard to switch
        
               | cco wrote:
               | Given how common defaulting on issues is, many
               | maintainers might view this as a feature?
               | 
               | Only slightly kidding.
        
               | Tommah wrote:
               | At one of my jobs, they used Asana when I started. It was
               | too full of backlogged issues, so we moved over to Jira.
               | Then Jira got too full. A month before I was laid off,
               | one of my coworkers said, "Maybe we should try out
               | Asana."
        
             | bguebert wrote:
             | I think the risk is the extensions that github adds to git
             | like CI/CD and issue tracking features.
        
             | Klonoar wrote:
             | You have slightly illustrated it yourself in a roundabout
             | way, but let's be clear with wording here:
             | 
             |  _> The design of git makes switching to another primary
             | remote very easy_
             | 
             | It is _never_ as easy as just switching to another primary
             | remote.
             | 
             | It's not just Issues/Wikis/Releases, but the build/CI
             | process(es) that are rampant on GitHub now, the community
             | you've built potentially coming up _on_ GitHub and not
             | really getting that there 's anything else out there, etc.
             | 
             | This is all time consuming hard work. People will often
             | just not do it, and this is why we have lock in everywhere.
             | Stop calling it _easy_.
             | 
             | The centralization of the internet around a few specific
             | services - like GitHub, Cloudflare, and so on - is an
             | increasingly problematic thing to contend with.
             | 
             |  _Edit: "as a easy" -> "as easy"_
        
               | dboreham wrote:
               | Quick data point: while not exactly trivial, my team has
               | migrated completely from github to our own hosted gitea.
               | Including CI, releases, issues, read-only mirror back to
               | GitHub, PRs etc. The only thing we don't have that would
               | be nice is the ability to take a PR directly from a fork
               | of a repo in someone _else 's_ Gitea deployment (or
               | GitHub for that matter). To take an external PR we either
               | need to recreate it manually in our Gitea under a team
               | member's account, or give the external contributor an
               | account on our Gitea.
        
         | asdff wrote:
         | Or just host your own git repo and cut out the dependency
         | entirely.
        
       | rglullis wrote:
       | I need a macro template for those memes with Bart Simpson on the
       | blackboard and make it say "I will always have a backup plan for
       | third-party services".
       | 
       | Seriously people: gitea exists. Gitlab self-hosted exists.
       | Drone/Woodpecker CI exists. It's not that difficult to set up a
       | project that does not _depend_ on Github. I spent less time
       | setting these up than the amount of down time that Github has had
       | this year.
        
         | waihtis wrote:
         | Problem is, this is one of 50 things that can go wrong for
         | which you should have a robust backup plan for
        
           | asdff wrote:
           | It's amazing how many of these issues can be obviated by
           | taking a step back at a given SAAS, asking can I self host
           | this, then if you can and need redundancy to just buy two
           | desktops and stick one in your place and another in your
           | friends apartment in another town. With a lightweight static
           | site, a modern desktop is probably more than powerful enough
           | to deal with most any load you might realistically see for
           | your given project. You are also extremely unlikely to have
           | both of these desktops go down at once if they are on
           | different local power grids and internet service providers,
           | short of invasion of the continental U.S. perhaps.
        
             | pixl97 wrote:
             | So how do you keep data synced between them in a manner
             | that ensures the data is safe? Now you're playing security
             | sysadmin, and you're playing backup administrator, and your
             | playing hardware admin (did you use 2 SSDs bought at the
             | same time?).
             | 
             | You don't ever escape the payment cost of the issues of
             | keeping these systems running. You're paying staff to do
             | it, you're paying a cloud provider to do this, or you're
             | paying out of your own time.
        
               | asdff wrote:
               | If these things were so insurmountable, the early
               | internet would not have existed at all. Yet it did and
               | still does in many corners, which stands to reason that
               | you can do these things too.
        
               | pixl97 wrote:
               | This is where I quote a Narina meme and say "Don't quote
               | the old magic to me..."
               | 
               | You're engaging in survivorship bias. One of my first
               | 'social' media/forum accounts accounts was lost when the
               | admin of the site dropped the user table from a database,
               | and had to go back to everyone online and ask for people
               | to mail in about their accounts. I never bothered to set
               | it back up.
               | 
               | Piles of other smaller sites disappeared for similar
               | reasons. If you completely ignore all that, then yea the
               | old internet was fine. Oh, and that these days hackers
               | are highly motivated to encrypt all your crap for
               | bitcoin.
               | 
               | Typically big sites don't disappear because they depend
               | on separation of duties between different teams doing
               | their responsibilities. For example, knowing how backups
               | work and making sure they are working every day.
        
               | reidjs wrote:
               | It's not insurmountable, just there's no point in adding
               | that risk to most projects. Would you rather tell your
               | boss so and so failed because of a news-worthy GitHub
               | incident or so and so failed because all 3 backups of
               | your own DIY service were taken down by some extremely
               | unlikely (but not impossible) chain of events?
        
           | layer8 wrote:
           | If you're using 50 things requiring separate backup plans,
           | and you aren't large enough that it's also no problem to
           | organize backup plans for those 50 things, you're doing
           | something wrong, I'd say.
        
         | verve_rat wrote:
         | Or, just take the rest of the day off? The world will still be
         | there after the weekend.
        
       | yieldcrv wrote:
       | well this was a wakeup call, we don't use github but apparently a
       | bunch of bash scripts for package managers do
       | 
       | we couldn't onboard a new hire because they couldn't even run a
       | curl command for some basic tooling
       | 
       | I thought it was a url, but the url actually loads a bash script
       | that tries to pull from their github repo
        
       | kklisura wrote:
       | Regardless of this: does anyone experience general slowness of
       | Github? I view a file (on web) and it takes time for page to be
       | fully interactive - no buttons work, rest of the file cannot be
       | viewed - just the top part is shown (above the fold, maybe).
       | Honestly, it's so nerve wracking.
        
       | rvba wrote:
       | Question.
       | 
       | Recently github is pushing very agressively for two factor
       | authenticartion.
       | 
       | So I installed the authenticator app.
       | 
       | But the authenticator does not work when the clock on my phone is
       | not perfectly synchronized. But my phone's clock is intentionally
       | sped up by +15 minutes?
       | 
       | What to do?
        
         | dingdong33 wrote:
         | Synchronize your clock.
        
           | rvba wrote:
           | I want my clock to be sped up by 15 minutes.
        
             | 4hg4ufxhy wrote:
             | You could fork some open source TOTP app and change the
             | time generation.
             | 
             | Or you can save your code and wait 15 minutes to login.
        
             | Arbortheus wrote:
             | Why?
        
         | louis-lau wrote:
         | TOTP usually only allows for about 30 seconds of time drift
         | between the device and the server. If you really must set your
         | phone to the wrong time you can use a cheap second device, or a
         | hardware token.
         | 
         | Technically if an authenticator app has an option for a time
         | offset it should work, but I've never encountered one.
        
         | ElectricalUnion wrote:
         | If you can get oathtool from fdroid termux, it can generate a
         | "not-now" TOTP token for you if you still have the OATP
         | parameters.
        
         | corbezzoli wrote:
         | GitHub offers like 4 ways to do 2FA. On top of that, your
         | browser or password manager can probably also generate OTP.
        
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