[HN Gopher] I designed my own keyboard layout. Was it worth it?
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I designed my own keyboard layout. Was it worth it?
Author : doener
Score : 48 points
Date : 2023-11-02 12:32 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.jonashietala.se)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.jonashietala.se)
| okasaki wrote:
| I also designed my own layout (https://i.imgur.com/C7GSCoE.jpg)
|
| I used it for around a year, but I'm back to qwerty now,
| specifically on a low-profile keyboard with red switches from
| aliexpress.
|
| Pros:
|
| - Some people think it's cool
|
| - It's interesting to do it
|
| - It's fun getting fast at typing on a new layout
|
| Cons:
|
| - Most people think it's weird
|
| - It can get expensive
|
| - Although I was eventually able to switch quite seamlessly
| between my layout and qwerty, for a few months my qwerty skills
| were very bad.
|
| - If you don't want to carry it to and from work, you need 2
| keyboards, or suffer two layouts
|
| - When typing I sometimes found myself thinking about the
| keyboard and layout rather than what I was writing
|
| - There's no ergonomic benefit that I could see, but I don't have
| any problems with normal keyboards
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I tried to switch to workman a while ago. I only did it on my
| kinesis advantage (my main work board). I left my gaming
| keyboard, normal flat 65. I was able to switch back and forth
| but I credit that to a kind of muscle memory because of the
| advantages physical layout.
|
| I also went back, partly 'getting back up to speed' frustration
| and partially because I'm really not sure what I was going to
| get out of it. After almost 40 years with qwerty keyboards ...
| it doesn't seem like i'm going to get that much benefit if
| there is even a measurable benefit.
| Keyframe wrote:
| I just need a HHKB with macbook keyboard's arrow keys to the
| right side.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I know i've seen them but it might be easierjust to go with a
| layout like one of these.. I'm not suggesting this particular
| company, i have no experience.. but just easy to find photos:
|
| https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q1-pro-qmk-via-wi...
|
| This layout seems cool though I'm pretty sure you could find
| one w/o the f-frow.
|
| I've gone with a 65 for my only 'flat' board.
| https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k2-pro-qmk-via-wi...
|
| You might be able to find one with the hhkb 'missing molars'..
|
| HHKB/Realforce did make a hhkb lite with inverted-t arrows in
| 2001... you can see it on this page:
| https://hhkeyboard.us/about/history
| jwells89 wrote:
| I'm pretty happy with just plain HHKB, just wish I could have
| that layout on a laptop. Maybe one of these days some company
| will produce aftermarket HHKB layout keyboard components for
| Framework laptops...
| Keyframe wrote:
| I'm super happy with it. So much so that I have two. However,
| occasionally I do want to "play pacman with one hand and eat
| pizza with other". Impossible to do with HHKB.
| strongly-typed wrote:
| The ANSI HHKB does not have the arrows, but if you're willing
| to use the JIS HHKB, it actually comes with dedicated arrow
| keys, and even a split spacebar with extra thumb keys that you
| can reprogram with software to act however you want.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| shot answer, probably not unless it's an accessiblity thing
| (missing fingers etc)
|
| The whole 'least keys possible i'm 31337 hax0r' optimization
| fuckery I just find hilarious.
| smrq wrote:
| If you haven't experienced RSI to the point where you
| understand that reaching for distant keys is literally painful,
| then I can see how you might come to the conclusion that it's
| just for e-peen points.
| hinkley wrote:
| If some of my coworkers switched from code golf to key golf the
| world would be a better place.
| daliusd wrote:
| It is fun, you learn something in process, nothing wrong with
| that. E.g. knowledge I have acquired while playing with
| keyboards was beneficial while fixing some home appliances and
| toys. I don't have any health problems like RSI and find it
| more comfortable. And BTW there is end game - you can create
| one key Morse keyboard that is actually usable
| https://blog.ffff.lt/posts/morsilka/
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| In my case it was worth it.
|
| I kept qwerty but moved each half outward so g and h are now
| where f and j used to be. From there I moved all of the outer
| keys to the two new columns in the center, plus a few other
| tweaks. Got enter on the corner so it's a palm-press.
|
| If I use a normal keyboard my pinkys start to hurt again, goes
| away when I switch back to my custom one.
| sweettea wrote:
| Jonas' keyboard layout is so awesome and incredibly inspirational
| for my own journey -- probably the single most read documents
| that I've spent time with this year.
| gsuuon wrote:
| I partially went down the alternative layout path before I
| realized simply lifting my palms off the palm rest was enough to
| relieve my RSI issues.
| coldtea wrote:
| KISS and Pareto would be proud of you!
| IshKebab wrote:
| I had RSI and experimented with Dvorak, vertical keyboards, even
| vertical mice (terrible idea).
|
| None of them helped. Surprisingly the thing that helped was
| getting a really good chair (I recommend a second hand HM Mira;
| don't get anything that sells itself as "ergonomic"), and a
| really deep desk so you can properly rest your forearms on the
| desk.
|
| With that my RSI went away completely, even with a totally plain
| qwerty keyboard.
|
| Dvorak was definitely nicer than QWERTY but when you add up...
|
| 1. You know qwerty. You'll probably never be as fast with Dvorak.
|
| 2. Ever want to type on any other keyboard in the world again?
| Yeah good luck. You _will_ underestimate how often you type on
| coworkers ' keyboards.
|
| 3. Ever use keyboard shortcuts? Well now they're awful.
|
| ... it _definitely_ isn 't worth it.
| svachalek wrote:
| I learned Dvorak 30 years ago due to RSI, and it's a pain for
| reasons 2 and 3. Maybe 10 years ago I just dropped it and went
| back to Qwerty. Got RSI, switched back to Dvorak, fixed it.
|
| But speed is just a matter of experience. I don't know if I'm
| faster on Dvorak, but a speed that is really hammering keys in
| Qwerty feels comparatively effortless in Dvorak.
| dheera wrote:
| I got a HM Sayl. It is comfortable but it makes a racket of
| squeaks, creaks, and wailing noises every time I move. So much
| so that I try not to move at all during meetings these days. My
| previous $80 Staples chair didn't have this problem.
|
| Are the other HM chairs any better?
| IshKebab wrote:
| Never tried that chair but yeah the Mira's don't make any
| noise. (There's a Mira 1 and 2 but they're essentially
| identical.)
| sesm wrote:
| I tried vertical mouse, and the biggest issue with it is that
| you need to rotate your wrist each time you reach for the
| mouse. Just using a keyboard without numpad solved the issue.
| Back in the days when I used a keyboard with numpad, I
| positioned my mouse below the keyboard (near the Space key) and
| it was a big improvement in terms of hand travel distance.
| fsiefken wrote:
| About keyboard shortcuts, with vim and ctrl-c/v I decided to
| use the characters of the layout, otherwise I thought it would
| be to confusing. But X, C and V are so comfortably next to each
| other that I sometimes make an exception.
| input_sh wrote:
| Does anyone do this _and_ type in multiple languages regularly?
|
| I could see myself getting into it if I only had to bother with a
| single layout, but since I deal with three different layouts on a
| daily basis, no way.
| dheera wrote:
| I use Dvorak and regularly type in both English and Chinese
| (Pinyin).
|
| On Linux and Mac it's no issue to input both using Dvorak.
|
| On Android, however, none of the Chinese input methods support
| Dvorak so I had to decompile and modify Google Pinyin's APK and
| rearrange the XML layout files to Dvorak.
|
| https://github.com/dheera/android-googlepinyin-dvorak
|
| I never learned QWERTY, so I'm extremely bad at typing with it
| even on a phone, regardless of language.
| terr-dav wrote:
| I recently switched to Dvorak for iOS, which I was delighted
| to find as an option.
|
| While I can still function on a full-size QWERTY keyboard on
| account of using them regularly, I almost never pick up
| someone else's phone, so my thumbs have forgotten it
| entirely.
| antoinebalaine wrote:
| I use the French bepo layout for everything, but all my
| languages are Roman languages.
| silverpepsi wrote:
| I type in Chinese regularly
|
| It is annoying that Windows keeps Qwerty for it while Mac uses
| Dvorak. If it was just consistent (I constantly switch
| machines) it would be easy to handle and entirely subconscious
| by now...
|
| But I start typing the wrong layout every time and lose a few
| seconds mentally reorienting myself.
| dheera wrote:
| I don't use Windows so I don't have an definitive answer for
| you but it seems possible to have Dvorak+Pinyin. This is 6
| years old so I don't know if the latest versions of Windows
| work the same way
|
| https://medium.com/@jiayu./how-to-set-your-pinyin-ime-
| keyboa...
| fsiefken wrote:
| Yes, I type in Dutch, English and sometimes German. You have to
| check if the distance advantage also goes for the three
| languages, for me they all are more efficient and more
| comfortable in Dvorak with the I and U reversed. It's not that
| much more comfortable, but definitely noticeable. When you have
| had RSI anything that makes typing more comfortable helps.
|
| Of course if you want the most efficient (you first have to
| decide on the factors, and the most efficient combination)
| layout for each language of the most efficient for the average
| of each language you can have a nice hobby for a year. I was
| afraid I'd end up with an esoteric layout and then after a few
| years find out that there was a better layout and I would learn
| that one all over again. Instead I decided to stick with DVORAK
| with an improvement tweak so it would be also more or less be
| usable on Android en iOS.
| flyax wrote:
| Yes. I'm also using my own layout on ErgoDox EZ, my languages
| are Czech (priserne zloutoucky kun upel dabelske ody) and
| English. I'm also a (neo)vim user.
|
| I found it hard to switch layouts, I'm using only one with
| layers. On first layer there are english letters, second layer
| there are accents (a - a) and some symbols where accent is
| missing (m - +). On third layer there are arrows on home row
| and functional keys. Shift without other key is `(`, on second
| layer `{`. There are some additional keys at the bottom and
| middle, they cover the rest of symbols. Outliers are mapped to
| start editor, browser, ctrl+c, ctrl+z, volume, mute, ...
|
| I really like having a single layout. I don't like that I'm no
| longer able to type on QWERTY without looking at keys. On my
| desktop, I'm 10 % faster, on any other computer I'm 90 %
| slower. Would I do it again? Probably yes.
| neom wrote:
| This was on the front page yesterday also:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38108427
| gumballindie wrote:
| The only customiseable keyboard i want is one made of glass - a
| screen like macbook's touchbar - where i can move keys around,
| add custom keys, or simply "enable" and show only those relevant
| to what i'm using. Ie if i play a game to only shows wasd plus
| tool keys. And those tools keys to be renamed to whatever their
| purpose is.
| bee_rider wrote:
| This would be a nice application for eink, if it ever got cheap
| enough.
| dheera wrote:
| Small eInk displays of that size are already cheap, probably
| <$1 if I were to guess.
| wdfx wrote:
| This was done, albeit with small led displays back in 2007.
| Google lebedev Optimus
| fsiefken wrote:
| Colemak was just released when I decided to switch to a better
| keyboard layout to prevent a return to RSI. I looked into rolling
| my own based on statistics. I didn't care if it would look like
| QWERTY, if I needed to switch cold turkey for my health or future
| comfort I'd do so. I decided to use the tried and true DVORAK and
| tweak a minimum to make it even beter; switch the U (qwerty F)
| and the I (qwerty G) as the I is used much more frequently in
| both English and Dutch. Next to being optimized for finger travel
| the DVORAK layout has more so called 'hand alteration' during
| typing due to the vowels being on the left.
|
| It took months before I was 'up to speed'. I thought I would type
| significantly faster, but that is'nt the case as I often think
| slower then that I can type. It's much more about comfort. I
| don't regret it, it really is more comfortable. I switch between
| QWERTY and DVORAK-IU often so I am bilingual. Typing in
| alphabetic shorthand (for example Yash) with yet another
| optimized layout is another possibility. Or Yash with morse code
| or braille mapped like chording or just chording.
| https://www.artofchording.com/layout/chorded-keyboard.html
|
| Soon we will be talking to our LLM's a lot, so it's not a real
| big deal, but the nerd in me likes to optimize. Still I think,
| perhaps I could have designed the very best layout for my
| personal style and Dutch en English and the latest theories
| regarding what's more optimal (rolls, hand alteration,
| compression, chording). Perhaps an LLM can help? Not sure if I
| want to learn a new layout again. In the meantime alternating
| between QWERTY and DVORAK-IU suits me well.
| JohnFen wrote:
| > Soon we will be talking to our LLM's a lot, so it's not a
| real big deal
|
| Regardless of how good voice interfaces get, the inherent
| limitations and restrictions that come with it means that we'll
| all still be doing a whole lot of typing until/unless a new and
| better input method is invented.
| coldtea wrote:
| I've never seen Betteridge's law of headlines more applicable
| than to this title - and I haven't even read TFA.
| jug wrote:
| The only one I've seriously considered is to open the mechanical
| keyboard market for me as a Nordic ISO layout user by using the
| Swerty layout: https://johanegustafsson.net/projects/swerty/
|
| There is a FAR greater custom keyboard market with ANSI layouts
| and that one is exactly that. ANSI layout for the traditionally
| ISO Nordic languages.
| sesm wrote:
| I use QWERTY layout on Ergodox with some keys removed. Moving
| symbols to a separate layer and Esc to Caps Lock position was
| enough to relieve my hands.
|
| https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez/layouts/40EJq/latest/0/2...
| Radle wrote:
| design hardware for vim xD
| sam0x17 wrote:
| annnnd vim user, no surprise there :D
| ge96 wrote:
| Tanget/OT
|
| I smashed the screen on my phone one time and this piece of tech
| that could summon a car was useless. I was stuck/had to figure
| out a bus system, was hungover so it was bad. I was thinking of
| vibration input.
|
| I still rely on/envision the standard qwerty layout
|
| Those rock wrist rests are fancy
| major505 wrote:
| Thanks, I hate it.
|
| I been using qwerty since the IBM PC XT where a thing. Before
| that my mother tauch me to type in eletronic typewriters. It's a
| terrible layout for Portuguese, ok for english, but but I spent
| so many years perfecting the necessary motor skills to use it
| that I would prefer to lose a hand than type in anything else
| now.
| atoav wrote:
| If all I did was type on my own private keyboars maybe I would
| consider another layout. But since I spend quite some time on
| other people's computers it is not worth the brain-knots that
| happen when switching.
| PeterisP wrote:
| I do a custom layout to get the diacritic non-English letters
| from my "proper local" layout but all the special
| characters/symbols as per US keyboard, since the "proper local"
| layout has them moved around for some reason. That was annoying,
| so many years ago I spent the 15 minutes to prepare the layout
| files and then I just need to install them on every new computer
| I get.
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