[HN Gopher] Two hackers one keyboard two ways
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Two hackers one keyboard two ways
Author : zdw
Score : 129 points
Date : 2023-10-31 04:35 UTC (18 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (flak.tedunangst.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (flak.tedunangst.com)
| jquast wrote:
| One of the first things I saw Linux do was utilize two mouses
| with two separate mouse pointers (serial and ps2 at the time), I
| was a young teenager and it blew my mind and I was installing
| Linux at home by the end of the month.
| arp242 wrote:
| Windows 95 could do that, maybe even DOS (less sure about that
| though).
| duskwuff wrote:
| > Windows 95 could do that
|
| With two separate cursors on screen? I don't think so.
| dwrodri wrote:
| This reminds me of the scene in Ghost in the Shell when the man
| approaches the terminal and then each of his fingers subdivide
| into thin metal wires, flurrying across the terminal's interface.
|
| I wonder how research is going w.r.t. augmenting perceptual input
| bandwidth for humans. It seems like a strong limiting factor on
| the species.
| thfuran wrote:
| I'd put that way, way down the list behind a bunch of cognitive
| biases, inability to consider scale or plan for the long term,
| etc.
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| I think the biggest overhead is language itself. Writing
| unambiguous language into text is a lot of work. If we could
| factor the work of disambiguation out somehow, we could apply
| that as a sort of UI/UX compression.
| notbeuller wrote:
| Watching my 10 year old manipulate the mindcraft ui is
| mindblowing - she was anticipating the UI before it appeared.
| On the other hand, watching my officemate try to edit command
| lines by pressing left arrow 65 times fills me with rage. I
| think there's a lot of low hanging fruit where people aren't
| aware of the power of their tools.
| deadbeeves wrote:
| Fun fact: That scientist does that instead of simply using a
| neural interface like the Major and other cyborgs because he's
| an old-fashioned computer scientist and doesn't trust his brain
| to computers. Seeing as they live in a world where remote
| servers can fry your brain if you fail to hack into them, it
| doesn't seem like such a bad idea.
|
| Source: the manga.
| mbakke wrote:
| I used to work with a guy that mounted a keyboard vertically on
| each side of his chair, using both at once.
|
| A true legend.
| julian_t wrote:
| I saw someone playing a concertina once and thought hmmmm... a
| split keyboard might work there. Never got round to doing
| anything about it, though.
| munificent wrote:
| May I introduce you to the Commodordion:
| https://linusakesson.net/commodordion/index.php
| uticus wrote:
| Even more DYI
| https://github.com/YangPiCui/ErgonomicVerticalKeyboard
| 1-more wrote:
| I'm typing this from a split keyboard right now. If someone
| made a nice set of arms that could mount my keyboard halves to
| my chair arms (with enough room on the right for a trackpad)
| I'd absolutely spring for that and get rid of my desk. Then
| when Apple makes a Vision Air I can just go full cyberman and
| drop the monitor too.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| It frustrates me to no end that the split form factor has not
| gotten more poplar. It naturally seems a better fit for the
| human body. Instead, I am stuck paying a premium to kinesis
| for their garbage software.
| ek750 wrote:
| Sadly I agree. Splits are great. I am eagerly awaiting my
| ortholinear split keyboard from https://dygma.com/ - no
| affiliation other than being a customer of their first
| keyboard, the raise and having the defy on order.
|
| Maybe it's just me, but I think the proliferation of
| mechanical keyboards brings people closer to the fringe
| where custom keyboards, layouts, parts and pcbs are the
| norm for the pursuit of perfection.
| uticus wrote:
| I don't know how popular you would like, but ZSA has been
| around for quite a while. Their ErgoDox has been around for
| years, and they have other models as well. [0]
|
| The Dygma Defy has also been making waves, it released not
| too long ago. [1]
|
| The Keyboardio Model 100 has been out for a while, it pops
| up occasionally on eBay so can't be too unpopular if it
| shows up there. [2]
|
| The MoErgo is probably less well known but has a good
| following both in the US and Europe. [3] Their Discord is
| pretty active.
|
| > premium to kinesis for their garbage software
|
| All the keyboards above are programmable, often with more
| than one option for programming. QMK is the common
| denominator and it isn't bad, but their are other options
| (Python, etc) and usually web-based configurators also.
|
| ...If you're willing to go with something that is too new
| to be popular, but has excellent ergonomics, programmable,
| and great customer support in US, I'd recommend Cyboard.
| [4] Currently waiting for mine to be shipped.
|
| There are lots of options besides these. So you are correct
| split keyboards are not available at the local big-box
| store, but at the same time they are definitely more
| powerful, more comfortable, and more customizable as a
| class. They are out there and they have a following, just
| have to know how to get started.
|
| [0] https://www.zsa.io/voyager/
|
| [1] https://dygma.com/pages/defy
|
| [2] https://shop.keyboard.io/
|
| [3] https://www.moergo.com/
|
| [4] https://www.cyboard.digital/
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| I know a lot of these options exist, but I have a few
| unbreakable requirements.
|
| 1) not building it myself. I need off the shelf. I am
| lousy with a soldering iron.
|
| 2) it _must_ have a dedicated F row. I do not care about
| layers and supposedly saved movement distance. I must
| always be able to mash F5 without any chording. Give me
| an F row + layers. The keys need to physically be there,
| my desk has plenty of "vertical" space to hold it.
| uticus wrote:
| Dedicated FN row supported by 2 out of 5 links above,
| check Cyboard and MoErgo. Most places (all in these
| links) provide turnkey, no soldering required.
|
| Agree your requirements get into rarefied territory if
| you want something ready-to-go, split, programmable, with
| FN row. But there are options.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| Get Keeb.io sinc it's sold prebuilt and has an f row. I
| have 2
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| I'd say non-split keyboard is barbaric at this point of
| computer evolution
| mplewis wrote:
| Check out this mounting kit:
| https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/tripod-kit/
| 1-more wrote:
| This is nice in that it has standardized threaded mounting
| points, but doesn't solve the distance from the chair arms
| outs to the keyboard halves. So there'd still be some
| doing.
| uticus wrote:
| Welcome to the rabbit hole https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-
| keyboards/
| thomastjeffery wrote:
| I do something similar at home: lie on my bed with a keyboard
| half leaning on each of my hips.
|
| One of these days I'll get around to 3D-printing a clamp or
| something.
| SnooSux wrote:
| Feels like it could be useful for one-handed keyboarding as well.
| rollcat wrote:
| Anyone remember Uplink[1]? It was a pretty fun, somewhat
| realistic black hat/script kiddie simulator game.
|
| I always wanted to make a game where you go against another
| human, and try to hack into each other's systems; but with pretty
| graphics and some "physical" game world, where your agents could
| be autonomous or remote-controlled bots. So there's a bit of
| combat / tactics; "hacking" something could require solving a
| very short minigame (2048, tetris, hangman, think WarioWare[2]);
| you could dump a fallen enemy bot's memory to recover their
| programming and look for a weakness; deploy RF jammer to make
| enemy bots in the area revert to auto-pilot; etc. You get to make
| your own designs, setup perimeter defenses, maybe a little bit
| like Factorio meets Robot Wars, with scripting in
| Forth/Scheme/Lua.
|
| [1]: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1510/Uplink/
|
| [2]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarioWare,_Inc.:_Mega_Microgam...!
| rschiavone wrote:
| Relevant discussion from 3 days ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38047861
| axxl wrote:
| Not quite the same but the Netrunner card game is an assymetric
| hacker vs corp game. It's... being revived via community
| support and has an active online scene I believe.
|
| Edit: Netrunner not Nethack... oops
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| > Netrunner ... hacker vs corp
|
| "The game took place in the setting for the Cyberpunk 2020
| role-playing game"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netrunner
|
| Yep, sounded familiar from the Cyberpunk RED game my tabletop
| group started recently. It's interesting to me how I just
| never heard of this setting for over a decade of playing
| TTRPGs and now it's seemingly everywhere.
| Fnoord wrote:
| Just to comment on this, given you mention a year: the game
| is from 90s and out of print. It is by the same person as
| Magic: The Gathering:
|
| > Netrunner is an out-of-print collectible card game (CCG)
| designed by Richard Garfield, the creator of Magic: The
| Gathering. It was published by Wizards of the Coast and
| introduced in April 1996.
|
| CCG is a bit of a weird mention, as there isn't the typical
| RNG involved with buying the cards (like w/MtG) since you
| buy the entire set or expansion in once.
|
| The game also has a spiritual successor: 'Android:
| Netrunner' [1]
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android:_Netrunner
| Fnoord wrote:
| Yeah Netrunner was a fun card game, and not really P2W but
| B2P. You'd buy the set (or expansion) and you and your buddy
| could play, doing blue vs red and vice versa. The game was
| fun but also you had to buy it once and that was it. No RNG
| with regards to packs of cards, new expansions obsoleting
| your already owned cards, etc. If you want a fun B2P fun card
| game (with rogue-like elements, which you may appreciate
| given your comment of Nethack ;), I can recommend Slay The
| Spire.
| carapace wrote:
| That scene has been elided from recent reruns!
| hotnfresh wrote:
| May just be a casualty of trying to cram in more ads. Older
| shows are often slightly sped up, and suffer cuts, to fit ad
| loads that are higher than when they were first broadcast (and
| that episode might count as "older", these days)
| civopsec wrote:
| I use an external keyboard for my right hand and the laptop
| keyboard for my left so that the left one can be more straight.
| So that an inflammation doesn't worsen. (This is on Ubuntu/Gnome
| 3 (ugh))
|
| I have tried two external keyboards (on the laptop) but then I
| had to deal with very annoying input lag from the second plugged
| in keyboard.
| maxbond wrote:
| > So that an inflammation doesn't worsen.
|
| I feel that. It seems like you've found something that works
| for you, but if you're ever looking to change up your setup,
| I've got some keyboards that are helpful to me. I'm attached to
| a certain pricey brand (and they're awesome and I
| wholeheartedly endorse them), but you can find some cheaper
| alternatives as well that are similar. (They're also open
| hardware, so you could build them if you're so inclined.)
|
| I have a Keyboard.io Atreus. It's very small, it has 44 keys.
| You don't move your hands to type, they just stay where they
| are and only your fingers move. The downside is that, to make
| up for the lack of keys, you've gotta use several layers with
| modifier keys (eg I have 3).
|
| I've also got a split keyboard (Keyboard.io Model 100). Each
| side can be positioned independently, and they're hooked
| together by an Ethernet chord. So you could get a similar set
| up to what you have now.
|
| The other things that were important for me are a vertical
| mouse (Logitech MX Pro Vertical), and a gaming mousepad, and
| additional padding for my chair's armrests.
|
| Obligatory reminder that everyone using a computer all day
| should make sure to put some effort into ergonomics and not
| developing an RSI.
| civopsec wrote:
| Aye thanks for the recommendations.
| Fnoord wrote:
| I need to let my arm rest on a wrist patch and/or armchair.
| Else I get inflammation. With my second keyboard (for my Mac) I
| didn't do this, as it stands behind the first one, and so now I
| have developed an inflammation.
|
| The advice for vertical mouse I read before. But I like that my
| mice are wireless (Logitech G903 and Apple Magic Mouse 2).
| sonicanatidae wrote:
| The part I always liked about that 2 people on a keyboard scene
| from NCIS was the boss unplugging the power to the workstation,
| preventing them from further attempts at blocking access
| to....the server.
| sushid wrote:
| Completely unnecessary. Why didn't they just turn off the
| monitor? /s
| teachrdan wrote:
| Onion headline: "Man angry at hard drive hits monitor"
| toast0 wrote:
| Well, they said the hacker was going through the workstation,
| not sure why... but seems reasonable to drop the workstation if
| that's the case (but the real question is did the boss pull the
| computer power cable or the monitor power cable)
| stevekemp wrote:
| The thing that always gets me about the NCIS scene is the lack of
| continuity in Tony's sandwich - it is either "full" or "half-
| eaten".
| corytheboyd wrote:
| Is the ridiculousness of these scenes an inside joke amongst
| writers trying to top each other? Or is that just another false
| internet un-fact I have saved to my brain :p I like to think it's
| true because it's hilarious.
| vlunkr wrote:
| I think that's totally possible. Especially when you're many
| seasons deep into a TV show, you have to get creative.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| The _true_ legend of quad mastery foretells the coming of a
| hacker capable of using four keyboards simultaneously. One for
| each hand, one for each feet. Such a superhuman being could
| theoretically hack anything, even the NSA. They would not be able
| to turn off the monitors of the computers fast enough to stop
| him.
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| One with such power must surely see within the network, that
| shadowy place that repels and terrorizes us.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| The network fears him. He walks unmolested through the
| cyberspace despite not having put up any firewalls. His logs
| are clean for not one dares make a move against him. Chinese
| bots send themselves signal nine when they spot him, thereby
| escaping a fate worse than deletion.
| JaDogg wrote:
| Haha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8qgehH3kEQ
| Fnoord wrote:
| I'd love some kind of quick method to move my entire second
| screen, primary keyboard, and mouse, with one keybind to my Mac
| instead of my Windows machine and vice versa. I don't need
| multiplexing, I'd even be OK with keeping pointer as-is. But two
| keyboards on my desk, it is too much. One solution I've found is
| USB2BT with different Bluetooth profiles. A KVM could also work,
| but I require 4k HDMI and USB. The KVMs I've found are too
| expensive for my liking.
|
| Also, with practice of keybinds in screen/tmux/zellij you can
| achieve something which approaches what is written in this
| article. With a good DE, you can even run two applications
| together on the same screen, or on two screens, or more.
|
| And I knew people who were running three monitors, keyboards, and
| mice on one computer back in the end of 90s, using XFree86. I
| used to run two fullscreen X servers myself on the same monitor,
| one for gaming. If it would crash, and least my whole DE wouldn't
| die with it. Usually. If it was a kernel crash I was SOL.
| Szpadel wrote:
| I can recommend you KVM from level1tech, I'm using personally
| version 2DP x 4Computers, but recently I saw they offer
| 4computers KVM without monitors version, I have no idea what
| magic they use to know when your cursor reached edge of the
| screen but it looks exactly what you described is your need
| Fnoord wrote:
| Thanks for the suggestion.
|
| Yep, I looked them up. That seems about the only brand I'd
| have trusted (need high performance HDMI/DP), but the price
| is too high for my liking. We're looking at 300+ USD w/o tax.
|
| I've gone with a docking station [1] for my MBP because it
| also has 100W PD (a big pro as it saved me from buying
| another power adapter). I put my monitor from DP to HDMI1 and
| it works. Since it is China ware I don't use the ethernet
| port. YMMV! And I still have to use the second keyboard.
| Which sucks. Perhaps I could retry Barrier specifically for
| that. I also haven't thought of sound yet. On the PC I use a
| Logitech headset with a user serviceable battery. It uses a
| proprietary USB-A dongle.
|
| [1] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005300851711.html
| (the 'pro' version, and no I didn't buy it because of the
| lame LED strip but because it was a good price/performance
| thingy. I did read reviews on docking stations before I
| purchased)
| antonjs wrote:
| Not quite the same thing but Barrier and Synergy can make two
| computers share a mouse and keyboard multi monitor style over a
| network (ie, you they switch when you mouse over the edge of
| one screen).
| Fnoord wrote:
| Tried it. Couldn't get it to work reliable (something with it
| getting stuck to one or the other? I forgot). Latency was
| noticeable but OKish.
|
| Thanks for the suggestion tho.
| MikeDelta wrote:
| I remember the game Double Dragon on DOS where you could play co-
| op using one keyboard. Less impressive with just a few buttons
| used, but a lot of fun.
| arp242 wrote:
| It was pretty common for games of the era. You could play
| Settlers 2 with a split screen and two mice! I had a lot of
| fights with my friend about whether one of us looked on the
| other half (being 10 year olds, we of course did all the time).
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| I used to do this a lot as a kid. Liero was the game. Emulators
| too. I still prefer playing games with a keyboard to this day.
| teekert wrote:
| That NCIS scene is ridiculed a lot. But I think it was here that
| someone told me writers intentionally write s like this to f with
| people like us and laugh about it. And I now think that is true
| and it changed me.
| itsboring wrote:
| Those shows are so formulaic, they have to do something to
| entertain themselves I suppose.
| deadbeeves wrote:
| The thing is, everyone who has ever said or done anything
| stupid can say the same, that they were only doing it to troll
| people. Pretending to be stupid isn't trolling, it's making
| yourself look stupid.
| jjeaff wrote:
| The two hackers on one keyboard portion of that scene may have
| been to screw with people. But the last portion of that
| sequence, I think, was actually meant to pander to the elder
| generation that makes up the vast majority of their viewership.
| What happens at the end is that the older, no-nonsense
| detective just waltzes over to the outlet and unplugs the
| monitor, this stopping the hacker in his tracks. the two
| hackers give a sort of "why didn't I think of that look" as the
| old detective grins.
| teekert wrote:
| Ha! I always though it was a power plug, but it indeed looks
| more like the plug from a monitor... That's even stupider.
| Or... they laugh at us even more.
| 1letterunixname wrote:
| Not 04/01. Hmm, this is either a serious prank or serious hackery
| for the art of it. Perhaps quantum both. I approve. :]
|
| I just need the upside-down and mirrored keyboard. :{
|
| EDIT: I recall in the 90's - 00's there was a Linux kernel patch
| to detect and reject feline keyboard input.
| anon115 wrote:
| title sounds like a succession of 2 girls one cup
| OJFord wrote:
| I remember thinking as a nipper that if only I had a second
| mouse, I could plug it in and have two pointers. I was interested
| in this for solitaire-cheating purposes: I thought I'd be able to
| click-drag away the top card (with nowhere to put it) and then
| (while holding it still with the other mouse) click to reveal the
| one underneath.
|
| And what could be better than that.
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(page generated 2023-10-31 23:01 UTC)