[HN Gopher] Bakhshali manuscript
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       Bakhshali manuscript
        
       Author : talonx
       Score  : 85 points
       Date   : 2023-10-30 12:06 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (en.wikipedia.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (en.wikipedia.org)
        
       | amriksohata wrote:
       | Can someone explain to me what problems and solutions this solved
        
         | lqet wrote:
         | > The rules are algorithms and techniques for a variety of
         | problems, such as systems of linear equations, quadratic
         | equations, arithmetic progressions and arithmetico-geometric
         | series, computing square roots approximately, dealing with
         | negative numbers (profit and loss), measurement such as of the
         | fineness of gold, etc.
        
         | tshadley wrote:
         | https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/HistTopics/Bakhshali_m...
         | has some examples.
         | 
         | |One person possesses seven asava horses, another nine haya
         | horses, and another ten camels. Each gives two animals, one to
         | each of the others. They are then equally well off. Find the
         | price of each animal and the total value of the animals
         | possesses by each person.
         | 
         | | Two page-boys are attendants of a king. For their services
         | one gets 13/6 dinaras a day and the other 3/2 . The first owes
         | the second 10 dinaras. calculate and tell me when they have
         | equal amounts.
        
           | amriksohata wrote:
           | Wow, maybe a more obscure question, what drives this problem
           | solving at that day and age?
        
             | jareklupinski wrote:
             | if I was a palace vizier, it might be helpful to know when
             | people serving a king have imbalances / debts that can be
             | exploited by others
        
             | kdamica wrote:
             | Not sure about this particular text, but much of the
             | earliest writing we have is record-keeping for taxes. You
             | could definitely imagine this kind of math being important
             | for tax collectors to learn, since they would typically
             | travel around to collect taxes at some interval, and would
             | have to calculate the amounts on the fly.
        
               | burkaman wrote:
               | Yeah these could be very literal problems. The first
               | seems useful for assessing the value of a taxable asset,
               | and the second for paying back a loan or a penalty over
               | time.
        
             | carapace wrote:
             | Math.
             | 
             | (As in, math is it's own motivation to some minds.)
             | 
             | These read to me like very abstract problems cast into
             | everyday (for that time) language to make the concepts more
             | approachable. Like "word problems" today the situations
             | described would be apocryphal.
        
           | bee_rider wrote:
           | Just for completeness, I noted in the description provided on
           | that site:
           | 
           | > The Bakhshali manuscript is a handbook of rules and
           | illustrative examples together with their solutions.
           | 
           | So, I guess these read like textbook examples because they
           | basically are.
        
         | photochemsyn wrote:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methods_of_computing_square_ro...
         | 
         | python implementation (for numbers >= 2)
         | 
         | def bakshali(S, iters=5, a=0, b=0):                   x = S//2
         | print(f'inital approximation = {x}')              for n in
         | range(iters):                  a = (S - x**2) / (2*x)
         | b = x + a                  print(f'{x}')                  x = b
         | - (a**2)/(2*b)              return x
         | 
         | Converges pretty fast!
        
           | tasty_freeze wrote:
           | Is this common in python to declare local variables as fake
           | parameters? The downside is obvious: it clutters the function
           | interface with red herrings. What is the upside?
        
             | 1024core wrote:
             | The upside is that if you wanted a different "iter", "a" or
             | "b", you could just specify it in the arguments.
        
             | photochemsyn wrote:
             | No, it was just to shorten the code block length for the
             | comment section (for a and b, iters makes more sense as one
             | might want to allow the caller to change that) :)
        
       | arp242 wrote:
       | It's written in a script which didn't exist yet in the 3rd/4th
       | century, which seems to rather disprove the earliest 224-383
       | dates, unless people want to argue that this script was in use
       | hundreds of years before we thought it was.
       | 
       | It does seem to fit fairly well with the 680-779 dates, which
       | also fits with when the 0 symbol started being used. 885-993
       | seems a bit too late, though not strictly impossible.
       | 
       | I'm a bit confused why the 224-383 date is even offered as a
       | serious possibility by the researchers, because to me (admittedly
       | as a non-expert) they seem highly unlikely and should have been
       | dismissed as a fluke. This seems more driven by sensationalism
       | and/or nationalism than anything else.
        
         | civilitty wrote:
         | I think carbon dating has undue influence because most other
         | methods of dating things are rather wishy washy and open to
         | interpretation compared to cold hard quantifiable radioisotope
         | ratios. Most people don't know how complicated radiocarbon
         | calibration can be and when to question the data.
        
         | 1sembiyan wrote:
         | It's in a proto-sharada script, which it seems can be dated to
         | earlier than 5th century.
         | 
         | There's no consensus on dating of the Bakhshali manuscript
         | however: https://www.ams.org/publicoutreach/feature-
         | column/fc-2018-06
        
           | arp242 wrote:
           | According to the article the proto-script emerged more during
           | middle of the seventh century.
        
         | Topgamer7 wrote:
         | Under the `Date` heading:
         | 
         | > Prior to the proposed radiocarbon dates of the 2017 study,
         | most scholars agreed that the physical manuscript was a copy of
         | a more ancient text,
        
           | arp242 wrote:
           | Perhaps, but that's not very relevant for the dating of this
           | specific physical piece of text.
        
         | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
         | > unless people want to argue that this script was in use
         | hundreds of years before we thought it was.
         | 
         | Is that script attested in hundreds of other (dated) works,
         | such that this really is absurd... or is it attested by two or
         | three other works which might have been misdated themselves? I
         | ask because I genuinely do not know. With one sort of answer,
         | it seems like it could be as absurd as you suggest, but with
         | the other sort of answer it seems like there could be the
         | possibility of it being that old.
        
       | josefrichter wrote:
       | The first documented case of null pointer, the billion dollar
       | mistake.
        
         | 0xd1r wrote:
         | Wasn't 1965, part of ALGOL W, but somewhere in the previous
         | millenium, in a language meant for object-oriented tax
         | collection.
        
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