[HN Gopher] Apple's Blue Ocean
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Apple's Blue Ocean
Author : hutattedonmyarm
Score : 81 points
Date : 2023-10-29 20:17 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (hypercritical.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (hypercritical.co)
| warrenm wrote:
| Make battery packs (call them "removable batteries, if you like")
| 100% completely and totally separate from the device itself -
| think of it like a UPS for a desktop...no (or _practically_ "no")
| battery on/in the device, and instead you run the device with a
| Qi-compatible battery pack
|
| IOW - the device becomes 30-50% lighter (on its own), and the
| _buyer_ determines how heavy his /her experience will be based on
| which Qi-pack [s]he has chosen to run their phone
|
| Want a 10,000mAh battery? No problem!
|
| Want only a 2,000mAh battery? Again: no problem!
|
| This even solves a problem Apple has let other vendors 'solve'
| with regard to cases - want an OtterBox? CrayolaCase?
| SiliconSoftie? Go get your case from any of a thousand
| manufactures
|
| Apple could provide a pair (or trio, etc) of Qi-packs for their
| devices, and let other manufacturers go banana pants coming up
| with other options
|
| This modularizes the iPhone in a _smart_ way (not like that goofy
| Motorola method (which was reminiscent of IBM in the 80s open-
| standardizing the buses for their Personal Computer) whereby the
| only thing you "have" to get from Motorola was the core module
|
| Apple's "core module" with such a program would _still_ be iPhone
| ... and that is _still_ the biggest differentiator Apple has vs
| the 80 scadzillion Android makers out there: iPhone is _only_
| Apple. Android is whomever wants to make one.
| threeseed wrote:
| I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.
|
| Because Apple has had this for years a while now with the
| MagSafe battery pack.
|
| I actually think it should become a standard that all companies
| adopt. It's far easier and quicker to use than removable
| batteries and doesn't remove valuable space inside the phone.
| foobiekr wrote:
| I used to feel like you - the non-removable battery thing was
| annoying, the non-modular flash was a deal breaker, etc.
|
| None of them turned out to matter, at all. What does matter is
| a solid feel and solid construction and the flash and batteries
| lasting the lifetime of the product. I'd rather have that
| _than_ replaceable.
| highwaylights wrote:
| But the batteries _dont_ last the lifetime of the product.
|
| Most iPhones are still very useful devices by the time their
| batteries have deteriorated below 70% original capacity.
| BreveDev wrote:
| iPhone batteries can be replaced for $89 from Apple and
| last for years. This is not the problem you think it is
| crooked-v wrote:
| This is basically what they're doing with the Vision Pro,
| though out of engineering necessity rather than preference: the
| headset by itself only has about 5 minutes of battery life, to
| give you just enough margin to swap out the external battery
| pack you keep in a pocket.
| LeafItAlone wrote:
| > instead you run the device with a Qi-compatible battery pack
|
| And lose 20% percent efficiency? A bigger battery for the same
| usage time and my device is constantly warmer? Sign me up! /s
| ankushnarula wrote:
| Agree with the most of youir premise - but a magnetically
| aligned and secured pogo-pin interface on the bottom back edge
| of every MacBook might be superior to inductive charging, which
| wastes electricity and generates too much heat. Such battery
| packs could also include a second pair of pass-thru pins for
| stacking and connecting to a direct wall power adapter.
| Animats wrote:
| The future is batteries with more charge cycles, not replaceable
| batteries. The solid state battery people are claiming 10,000
| charge/discharge cycles. If they can achieve that, it's 27 years
| of battery life. The case will wear out first.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| Lithium ion batteries that can handle a thousand to several
| thousand charge cycles and only see 80% reduction in capacity
| have been available for ten years.
|
| My 2013 Macbook Pro has just such a battery, rated for 80%
| capacity after 1000 cycles, and it lasted over 6 years before
| the battery's internal resistance rose enough that heavy load
| would cause a brownout and the machine to force sleep.
|
| Yet they are not in widespread use; most devices have
| prioritized capacity/weight/size over longevity, Apple
| included. My current M1 has lost 10% of its capacity after just
| 120 cycles and less than a year of ownership, even using a
| utility that allows you to set a limited maximum charge level
| to preserve the battery. And the battery is less accessible,
| less replaceable.
|
| Battery companies and device manufacturers don't care. There's
| no incentive for anyone involved and consumers have gotten used
| to replacing devices every few years.
|
| Solid state batteries with 10k charge/discharge cycles are
| never going to happen for the same reason incandescent bulbs
| are purposefully manufactured by every single lightbulb
| manufacturer to fail when they figured out a hundred years ago
| how to make them last forever.
|
| We need something like a e-waste import duty, tax, fee, or
| 'recycling deposit' on devices with non-replaceable lithium ion
| batteries.
| h0l0cube wrote:
| > Solid state batteries with 10k charge/discharge cycles are
| never going to happen for the same reasons, which are
| identical to the same reason incandescent bulbs are
| purposefully manufactured by every single lightbulb
| manufacturer to fail when they figured out a hundred years
| ago how to make them last forever.
|
| My first phone was NiCad Nokia. Later Nokia monochrome
| display phones used Li-ion well before smartphones. I use an
| iPhone now, but if a user-upgradeable Android phone came out
| with a solid-state battery, I would switch.
| PaulKeeble wrote:
| Its a bit of a myth for ever lasting bulbs, its more
| complicated than that. The life time was a trade off of
| colour and brightness. If you made them very red shifted and
| quite dim then there are bulbs that are very old still
| around, but they don't produce much light and never did. The
| harder you drive the filament the better the light properties
| but the quicker it died. The industry choose a point for
| trade offs as a standard. You can watch about the history of
| it on Technology connections.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb7Bs98KmnY
|
| Saying that the Dubai Philips LED bulbs really do last a lot
| longer since they have twice the filaments and run the
| filaments a lot less hard as a result (as well as being more
| efficient). It is possible nowadays to make an LED that wont
| fail anytime soon although LEDs are already much better than
| incandescents in that regard but there are ones that will
| likely survive your lifetime available at a higher price but
| only in Dubai. Most LED bulbs are designed to fail sooner,
| but they are also cheaper.
|
| Those 10k recharge batteries are absolutely coming and we
| will have them in a few years time, li-ion as it stands today
| will simply be obsolete.
| Despegar wrote:
| If there's going to be removable batteries for any product it
| will be for new product categories like the Vision Pro. Apple is
| definitely not going to take established products like the iPhone
| and change it up just to be different (which isn't a sustainable
| competitive advantage because anyone can do it). Even with the
| Vision Pro it's a compromise that Apple is likely tolerating,
| rather than what the 'final form' of the product will be in 10 or
| 15 years.
| hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
| I'm all for Apple reversing their long-standing decision to make
| device batteries non-user-replaceable - an original decision
| which I personally loath, and one where the EU will most likely
| force Apple's hand anyway by requiring batteries to be user-
| replaceable.
|
| But excuse me while I throw up in my mouth a little with this
| "Blue Ocean" nonsense. Apple makes an original, user-hostile
| decision for the sole purpose of increasing planned obsolescence
| and to make them more money, and then when the winds shift they
| _might_ go back the other way - but, again, they 'll likely be
| forced to anyway. No need for poetic blog posts.
|
| I suppose we're owed another "Blue Ocean" missive about how Apple
| led the way with Lightning connectors and then found another Blue
| Ocean with ... USB-C. Puhleeez.
| LaSombra wrote:
| I have huge respect for John Siracusa. His articles at Ars
| Technica, pragmatic opinions on the world of computing always
| spoke to me, but this article sounds like something written by
| John Gruber.
|
| Apple indeed innovated in multiple ways and markets, but un-
| removable batteries wasn't one.
| ace2358 wrote:
| I also have massive respect for Siracusa and I find I have a
| few similar opinions that made it really enjoyable listening
| to him and reading his articles.
|
| But over the years, as John has gotten older (and as the
| other members of ATP) I find that my values are starting to
| diverge. It feels much more of a news show than a tech show
| and I find I'm not gaining much insight from their
| discussions or opinions. Even their tech insights are
| starting to feel out of touch with the rest of the world.
| matwood wrote:
| Marco was always disconnected because he's well off and
| could do whatever he wanted (good for him). When Casey and
| John had jobs, they were able to keep Marco grounded and
| the trio really worked. Now that Casey and John both only
| really do the podcast now, they all are a bit disconnected.
| I'm happy for all them to make money doing what they love,
| but the show definitely changed once they all became
| essentially full time podcasters.
| threeseed wrote:
| > Apple makes an original, user-hostile decision
|
| You make it sound like the decision comes with no benefits.
|
| All of the hardware to support removable battery means less
| space for the battery.
|
| And especially in the early days the iPhone was struggling to
| reach a normal working day.
| EPWN3D wrote:
| R2R enthusiasts are incapable of seeing any decision from a
| perspective that isn't their own personal fetish for
| tinkering. So any and all advantages of sealing the battery
| into the chassis are just waved away and not acknowledged at
| all.
|
| Lighter devices? That's irrelevant, no one cares about device
| weight.
|
| Cheaper to manufacture? That's just a ploy to _gasp_ make
| more money! How dare they?!
|
| Waterproofing? Well _I_ don 't go SCUBA diving with my phone,
| so clearly no one else does. And if they do, just put it in a
| ziplock bag!
|
| And so on.
| smoldesu wrote:
| There are reasonable levels of supply chain integration,
| and then there is user-hostility. With Apple we've seen
| both sides of the coin, so you'll have to excuse the people
| who accuse them out the gate.
|
| It stands to reason that a company as large as Apple is
| capable of making decisions that impact large amounts of
| people. It's not just Right to Repair enthusiasts that care
| about that impact, it's extended to regulatory bodies that
| are tired of meaningless standards competition and
| arbitrary market separation. Apple can excuse these base
| truths with whatever feature or novelty they choose, but it
| doesn't overwrite the insidious functionality of their
| choices.
|
| You're basically describing the situation in reverse, from
| the perspective of foreign markets and regulatory
| watchdogs:
|
| "Another special, licensed connector for data and power?
| Why do we need that!"
|
| "An App Store? Why give Apple complete control over a
| feature as basic as installing software?"
|
| "Only one browser engine? How are new technologies intended
| to compete on a platform that doesn't acknowledge
| newcomers?"
|
| So on and so forth.
| TapamN wrote:
| These "advantages" to sealing the battery are incredibly
| weak/false.
|
| The weight difference from sealing the battery is
| negligible. If it saved several hundred of grams, it would
| one thing, but a replaceable battery adds at most tens of
| grams.
|
| Even if the sticker price of device is cheaper, I would
| still have to pay more to replace the entire device once
| the battery is worn. This is the primary reason for most
| companies sealing the battery, to force buying an entire
| phone. Having a replaceable battery would save me money.
|
| Sealing the battery was not responsible for waterproof
| phones. There were already waterproof phones with
| replaceable batteries.
| ranqet wrote:
| Siracusa's simpering, consoomer defensiveness for Apple has
| become intolerable. He seems unable to deal with the fact that
| his precious company's business practices are incompatible with
| his political/enviromental beliefs. Instead concocting this
| 'blue ocean' dream that Apple will switch back to user
| serviceable batteries, creating a new market where there
| competitors don't dare tread.
|
| What?
|
| There are still plenty of Android devices that have user
| serviceable batteries, but they don't sell as well because what
| the majority of users want is to minimize size and weight at
| any cost. The minority of geeks out there who think something
| like this is important doesn't move the needle. Apple
| (particularly under Tim Cook) only cares about maximizing
| profits. Their environmental schtick is merely dressing in
| front of the ruthless profit making machine at work.
|
| Obviously Siracusa can't deal with the dissonance that his
| precious Apple doesn't care about the environment as much as he
| does. Thus typing up silly articles like this...
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > they don't sell as well because what the majority of users
| want is [...]
|
| I think in the current market we have no idea of what the
| majority of users want because there's no combination of all
| the available options.
|
| The majority of users might value iOS more than any specific
| hardware feature. Second to that, they might value price and
| career rebates.
|
| That makes fringe android phones failures irrelevant and
| would leave us with only random guesses on what people would
| want outside of what Apple and Sumsung is offering right now.
| linguae wrote:
| Exactly. Just because a company sells something doesn't
| mean the majority of users want it that way. I would love
| for Apple to sell a laptop akin to the 2006 MacBook and
| MacBook Pro but with modern components, complete with
| removable batteries as well as user-upgradeable RAM and
| storage. It doesn't need to replace the existing Apple
| laptop lineup; it could supplement it (let's call it the
| MacBook Pro Max or the MacBook Extreme or something to that
| effect). Of course, Apple doesn't sell this product, and so
| I have to choose between two compromises: dealing with non-
| replaceable components so I could use macOS, or dealing
| with Windows or Linux so I could use something like a
| Framework laptop. In other words, I must choose between
| macOS or user-serviceable laptops, and unless Apple
| experiences noticeable declines in sales, this won't
| change; in fact, even PC laptops have largely moved toward
| the Apple model; even many ThinkPads have soldered RAM
| these days.
| Condition1952 wrote:
| removable batteries was to allowed the laptop to run without a
| battery pack for as long as needed
| FireBeyond wrote:
| > the Wii differentiated itself with its motion controls and a
| low price. It was a hit.
|
| > Lately, I've been thinking about the blue ocean strategy in the
| context of Apple. Like Nintendo ...
|
| Well, Apple is certainly not differentiating on 'low price'. And
| I don't know that high margin is "innovative blue ocean".
| bravoetch wrote:
| Please make them cheaper and sustainable instead of adding
| removable batteries.
| mynegation wrote:
| Sealed off user-interchangeable batteries are a solved problem.
| GoPro does it.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| Indeed. Which is the solution camcorders and consumer cameras
| used for decades.
| rezonant wrote:
| The Blue Ocean strategy is choosing a specific market segment
| underserved by your direct competitors and refusing to compete on
| the product attributes that your competitors are emphasizing, not
| just "trying something new".
| echelon wrote:
| This article is a hodgepodge of Apple praise [1], incorrectly
| applied business analysis, and a misguided hope that Apple will
| be considerate enough to build user-serviceable parts. It makes
| no sense.
|
| [1] yes, the trillion dollar company is better than everyone
| else
| lapcat wrote:
| My favorite MacBook Pro ever was my 17-inch 2006 model.
|
| Replaceable battery and matte display! I hate that these features
| were eliminated.
| Cupprum wrote:
| I prefer these glossy displays, i think its actually quite sad
| that the external display market does not offer many nice
| monitors with glossy screen.
| tpmx wrote:
| Waterproof batteries, transferring power to the device via
| induction? Then the bay where they are installed wouldn't need to
| be glued shut.
| arcticbull wrote:
| I mean, they don't need to be glued shut now lol.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| The short version is: "Wouldn't it be disruptive if Apple went
| back to replaceable batteries?" but the author stopped short of
| where that leads.
|
| One of the things that doable "now" that wasn't doable "then" is
| wireless charging. I love that I can put my phone on a pad next
| to the bed at night and it charges, pick it up and there is no
| trailing wire to unplug, put it down and there is no wire to find
| and plug in. This is a big improvement in my user experience.
|
| Another of the things that have moved us forward is that power
| efficiency has gone up dramatically, as a result a smaller
| battery can give the same "run time" as a large battery of old
| without the bulk associated with the larger energy storage
| capacity.
|
| Why not combine them?
|
| Why not _no_ battery in the device? Seal it against the elements.
| Then put in a pocket where a battery that _is_ a wireless
| "charger" can drop into a slot on the device and provide the
| power. Current demands on a modern device are low enough that you
| just go wireless all the time for main power. Now your device
| takes a sealed "toaster pastry" sized unit that looks innocuous,
| but slide it into the slot and poof the device powers up, put it
| on a recharging mat and it starts charging up itself.
|
| Now you have no exposed terminals to "short out", no worries
| about the battery in your device becoming a "pillow of doom"[1].
| And you can carry a couple of extras if you're going to be away
| from power for a while.
|
| You get all the benefits of replaceable batteries and none of the
| downsides with the possible exception of a "slot" in your device
| that looks funny when there isn't a battery in it.
|
| I totally should have patented this :-)
|
| [1] Just Google it :-)
| rzzzt wrote:
| AKA spicy pillows, there is a subreddit with the same name
| dedicated to those puffed up bastards.
| silisili wrote:
| That's pretty close to how power tools work, minus the wireless
| charging of course. My first concern would be warmth, my phone
| always warms up when wireless charging. Doing something CPU
| intensive would probably get the device blazing.
|
| My second concern would be size - is the total package going to
| get a lot bigger here? If we forgo the pocket and just use
| magnets at each corner maybe it gets slimmer, but can it be
| about as slim as they are today?
|
| If we could overcome those two hurdles, I'd be a huge fan of
| the idea.
| judge2020 wrote:
| MagSafe's auto-alignment really helped the efficiency of
| Wireless Charging, supposedly 75% efficient with MagSafe
| (based on the cable pulling 20w and phone supposedly
| accepting 15w) versus 50% for regular Qi charging.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| There is a tradeoff here which might mislead. That is that
| when you're wirelessly recharging a battery "good" is defined
| by "charges in a short time" which means a lot of current and
| thus a lot of heat. When operating a device "good" is defined
| by "runs a long time" which means minimal current and thus
| little heat.
|
| So before we could dismiss the idea, we would really need to
| run the experiment of "running" via wireless power to see how
| the current requirements in that state would be reflected in
| device heating (or not). I agree with you though that if the
| answer was "always smoking hot" then it is a non starter.
|
| As for size, the "wireless" part is really really thin (a
| loop antenna). Battery size is a function of how much
| electrolyte it can carry and LiOn batteries are about 0.5g/cc
| and 250Wh/kg (or .25Wh/g) iPhones are around 12Wh so about
| 48g of battery which is 96cc of Lithium. Call it 100cc and
| you're looking as a "7.8 x 15 x 1" cm "battery card" (order
| of magnitude approximation based on that math and rough
| measurements of my iPhone 13SE which is a smallish phone)
|
| I like the idea of magnets but I don't like the idea of the
| battery being "jostled off" my phone in my pocket and so
| effectively turned off when I think it should be on. So I
| think that would take some design work to get right.
| pjerem wrote:
| You really don't have to go wireless to protect your
| device/battery against the elements. In fact, most smartphones
| today are totally waterproof while still being charged by a
| good old cable.
|
| It's also pretty easy to design a connector with exposed pins
| that are totally inoffensive until something real is exposed.
| In fact, modern USB charging already works like this : a
| charger will not send anything over 5v x 150mA before having
| negotiated with the device to know what it needs.
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| Wireless power is too inefficient for this to make sense. You'd
| be throwing 30% of the battery capacity to the wind
| bradgessler wrote:
| You could have low profile metal contacts between the battery
| case and the phone to achieve full efficiency.
| Thorrez wrote:
| You'd still need some in-device battery to keep the phone from
| fully powering off every time you change the outside battery. I
| think people want their phones to not have to fully power off
| all the time.
| lbotos wrote:
| 30min of standby capacity for an internal lil battery,
| external poptarts galore? I don't hate it.
|
| It's kind of an interesting play because apple could make a
| _super thin_ phone that has 30 min battery life and then a
| few different size pop tarts with different capacities. You
| want 3 days, get the mondo brick.
| buildbot wrote:
| > One of the things that doable "now" that wasn't doable "then"
| is wireless charging. I love that I can put my phone on a pad
| next to the bed at night and it charges, pick it up and there
| is no trailing wire to unplug, put it down and there is no wire
| to find and plug in. This is a big improvement in my user
| experience.
|
| The palm pre and several early android phones had both
| removable batteries and wireless charging. The back panel just
| had pogo pins for the coil to transfer power.
| todd3834 wrote:
| I really enjoyed the first half talking about how Apple and
| Nintendo followed a blue ocean strategy. Then the second half
| ranting about removable batteries felt totally out of place. I'm
| not sure I buy the blue ocean strategy of that, although well
| written.
| dangus wrote:
| I agree. It made no sense after the excellent first half.
|
| Apple has designed the Mac to become obsolete in approximately
| 10 years. That's when you lose official OS support. And yes,
| you can get your battery serviced but nobody's going to buy a
| $200 battery for a laptop worth $500. Adding it back wouldn't
| be a blue ocean, it would just be Apple ceding profits to
| nobody.
|
| Apple's blue ocean is stacking ecosystem benefits. If you have
| an iPhone it makes more sense to own a Mac or an Apple Watch.
| If you own a Mac or Apple Watch it makes more sense to own
| AirPods. If you own AirPods it makes more sense to own an Apple
| TV.
| omneity wrote:
| This article wasn't particularly insightful or thought-provoking.
| Maybe I missed something.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| It could be easily done. Sadly Apple doesn't seem to view that in
| its interest, despite its repeated claims to care about the
| environment.
|
| They could make slick, elegant devices which are still repairable
| and have replaceable batteries.
|
| I remember the original iMac G5 had a great design which let you
| simply remove the backplate with 3 screws and access everything.
| Of course in the next iteration they changed the design entirely
| so that opening it up became a huge ordeal.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > [fewer product sales per unit time] is a problem that can be
| solved using one of Apple's favorite financial tools: higher
| product margins.
|
| It's weird people forget the main message Apple has been touting
| for years now: services revenue.
|
| Even without removeable batteries, with right to repair device
| longevity will increase, and they've seen the writing on the wall
| for a long time.
|
| Apple will continue increasing services revenue. They'll fight
| the bitter end for the 15/30% tax on everything, iCloud tiers,
| Apple Music, TV, etc.
|
| If they find a blue ocean, it will be in services. Their entry
| into emergency satellite calls and other "wouldn't you feel bad
| being dead because you didn't pay us ?" push could be that.
| Cupprum wrote:
| I do not understand why you are being downvoted.
| IshKebab wrote:
| Not going to happen. Battery life is good enough for 99% of
| people that they aren't going to want to swap batteries. Only
| nerds really did that in the first place.
|
| Battery technology has improved so much that removable batteries
| are _less_ desirable.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| I'd rather have hot swappable batteries where you have a ten
| minute battery in the device and the main battery can be swapped
| out on the fly.
| Grustaf wrote:
| Of all the things I've ever wanted to be different on my macbook,
| removable batteries have never been one of them. Now when battery
| life exceeds a (long) working day, why on earth would anyone want
| this? The very few times you will be away from a wall socket for
| more than 12 hours, you can just bring a power bank.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| At some point Apple refuses to replace the batteries of your
| macbook as they stop supporting the model. At that point you
| could be down to a few hours of battery life, with no third
| party repair shop willing to work on your laptop at a
| reasonable price. That's where you'd be with a 2017 macbook Air
| for instance.
|
| Replaceable batteries gives an out to that situation, as one
| battery maker somewhere in the world could be enough to keep
| the remaining laptops alive, with no need for invasive
| serviceing.
|
| Of course that brings Apple close to nothing in revenue, but
| would boost good will from users and let them tout
| sustainability?
|
| Also won't resonate if you're cycling through devices every 2
| years anyway.
| emadabdulrahim wrote:
| The first half of the article was great. But regarding going back
| to replaceable batteries, I couldn't disagree more. If you know
| anything about Apple's design philosophy, you'd know the last
| thing Apple wants is for users to even consider opening up their
| device to replace/swap a battery.
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