[HN Gopher] Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested
___________________________________________________________________
Exclusive hardwood may be illegally harvested
Author : geox
Score : 250 points
Date : 2023-10-26 14:23 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.chalmers.se)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.chalmers.se)
| civilitty wrote:
| In my (albeit limited) experience, if you can't get some sort of
| provenance documentation for exotic hardwoods from the
| lumberyard, it's almost guaranteed to be unsustainably harvested,
| mostly outright illegally. Unfortunately it seems that most
| lumberyards open to the public and contractors are full of such
| wood because the legit stuff is even more expensive and sold
| mostly to high end furniture manufacturers and specialty
| suppliers.
|
| Brazil is going to go through the same process as Cuba did with
| mahogany until trade in ipe is banned entirely, except it's not
| an island so it'll be impossible to enforce.
| jihadjihad wrote:
| It's OT, and not meant to detract from your point or be
| pedantic in any way, just something I've seen and heard in
| software, too:
|
| > providence
|
| when what I am sure you meant to say was _" provenance"_. I've
| heard people talk and ask about the "providence of the data"
| too much not to leave a comment, I guess! It's not manna from
| heaven it's just some rows in a database somewhere ;)
| civilitty wrote:
| Thank you, good catch!
|
| I was researching the provenance of a rare book just
| yesterday so this is particularly embarrassing
| randomdata wrote:
| _> when what I am sure you meant to say was "provenance"._
|
| Without the documentation being in protective care of God,
| can it truly be trusted?
| jihadjihad wrote:
| "In God we trust. All others bring data."
|
| - W. Edwards Deming
| LadyCailin wrote:
| Perhaps they meant documentation about the city in Rhode
| Island?
| hedora wrote:
| I've never seen a lumberyard that doesn't have sustainability
| certifications.
|
| Anyway, much of the illegal harvesting is due to Brazil's right
| wing government actively encouraging people to burn the amazon
| to the ground.
|
| Though it would be hypocritical, we should treat that as an act
| of war. The greenhouse effect of that one action is going to
| cause trillions of damage to coastal cities alone.
| epx wrote:
| s/right wing/any wing/. Look up who built Belo Monte.
| londons_explore wrote:
| > not an island so it'll be impossible to enforce.
|
| Unlike drugs, wood is a bulky cargo.
|
| Sure, you might smuggle a few planks, but you aren't going to
| manage to smuggle tens of thousands of trucks full unless the
| government is deliberately turning a blind eye.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > In my (albeit limited) experience, if you can't get some sort
| of provenance documentation for exotic hardwoods from the
| lumberyard, it's almost guaranteed to be unsustainably
| harvested, mostly outright illegally.
|
| If you can't get any provenance documentation, how are you
| assuming it's harvested illegally?
| civilitty wrote:
| Funnily enough, a lot of the illegally harvested wood comes
| with great provenance information, if not official
| documentation. Unscrupulous manufacturers need to know where
| to reliably source it and corruption where these trees are
| harvested is rampant so they don't even need to hide it. I
| assume so because there's a significant price difference
| between those operations and legitimate sustainable ones when
| provenance is available.
|
| However I think the exotic wood that makes it to the average
| lumberyard comes almost exclusively from opportunistic small
| logging operations that stumble upon on groves of trees and
| cut them down and ship them out as fast as possible,
| oftentimes under the noses of the land owners (the state,
| natural reserves, etc.).
| rtsil wrote:
| Documentations are easy to buy in many countries where those
| exotic woods are sourced. Most of the traffic are done by
| people in the government or by those who put them there.
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| Apparently it's _exclusive_ hardwood for _exclusive_ decks and
| the demand for this _exclusive_ tropical wood is increasing. This
| article really likes the word _exclusive_.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| I'd like to see the research, because I believe there isn't any
| way to sell ipe wood legally in Brazil. I'm almost certain the
| real number is higher than the 96%, not the one on the title.
| woliveirajr wrote:
| Here:
|
| https://www.chalmers.se/en/current/news/75-percent-of-exclus...
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-023-01189-3
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Thanks a lot.
|
| Turns out there is a way, used mostly since the last decade.
| And their methodology seems best-fitting, and not a
| conservative estimation. I'm very positively surprised that
| 1/4 of the ipe wood sold internationally is legal.
| juancn wrote:
| I got confused about the name "ipe" (first time I hear it, my
| Portuguese is basic at most), it's also known as "lapacho" in
| Argentina, "tajy" in Paraguay and "araguaney" in Venezuela.
| translucyd wrote:
| Ipe is an indigenous word. Congress from Tupi languages
| probably.
| apojomovsky wrote:
| Same, in the picture from the article I clearly identified a
| Tajy Sa'yju. Fun thing is that this wood is used for absolutely
| everything in Paraguay. From posts to delimit rural properties
| to fuel for barbecues.
| barelyauser wrote:
| "You can know the name of that bird in all the languages of the
| world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing
| whatever about the bird [...]".
| woliveirajr wrote:
| In 2020, the then president of Brazil said he would reveal which
| countries were the consumers of the illegally extracted wood from
| Amazonia. [0]
|
| No further news were heard about it. There were even a startup
| that would use DNA to certify the origin of the wood, allowing
| traceability.
|
| The "efforts to halt trade in illegal timber such as the EU
| Timber Regulation and the US Lacey Act" can greatly contribute to
| reduce this process: harvesting those trees isn't cheap, and
| without buyers paying large sums to aquire it, it becomes non-
| profitable.
|
| [0] in Portuguese: https://exame.com/brasil/bolsonaro-diz-que-
| revelara-paises-q...
| frozenlettuce wrote:
| Recently I was watching Property Brothers and saw two episodes
| where both houses had Brazilian Hardwood flooring. The funny
| thing is that I live in Brazil and it is quite rare to find
| houses with that type of flooring - the bureaucracy and costs
| associated make it very expensive - but that might not be the
| case if the customer is Canadian
| bastardoperator wrote:
| I would argue there is zero point in using real hardwood on
| floors these days given vinyl planks are way cheaper, way
| more durable, and look nearly indistinguishable from real
| thing.
| abakker wrote:
| Hardwood floors can be re-sanded and refinished many times
| over, generating no waste. Vinyl floors get scratched and
| then thrown away. Wood is renewable, vinyl comes from oil
| wells. I'm not certain this is actually logical.
| trgn wrote:
| And you feel it, barefoot, touching it, it feels more
| natural.
|
| Hardwood floors cleans better too, more hygienic. Hard to
| put into words.
| bluGill wrote:
| Hardwood is always covered in a plastic finish. Yes it
| feels different, but it is still plastic.
| trgn wrote:
| Is it? Are your referring to the varnish that's applied
| after?
| cinntaile wrote:
| I don't know where you got this from, but I can assure
| you that's not correct.
| bhandziuk wrote:
| They're talking about polyurethane. It does have a
| plasticy feel too it.
| bluGill wrote:
| Polyurethane is a type of plastic, and is the most common
| wood finish for floors.
| verve_rat wrote:
| But most common != always, as you claimed.
| thunfischbrot wrote:
| That's not correct. While many people choose polyurethane
| finished wood since it is less likely to stain from
| liquids, oils and varnishes are popular as well.
|
| See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_flooring#Finishing
| ,_buffi...
| bhandziuk wrote:
| Polyurethane is one type of varnish so if you're going to
| contrast it you'll have to be more specific (phenolic
| resin or alkyd resin)
|
| Usually oils would be combined with some other varnish,
| especially on a floor, because they offer nearly zero
| abrasion or water resistance. You'd think oil finishes
| like boiled linseed oil or tung oil would offer some
| water protection because of the _oil_ but they don 't.
| Better than wax or nothing but much worse than varnishes.
|
| This is a table from a book on my shelf by Bob Flexner on
| the subject, Understanding Wood Finishes. It's a good
| reference https://imgur.com/a/TzacsLs
| devonkim wrote:
| Hardwax oils are also used but oftentimes have quite bad
| VOCs. However, I'm familiar with at least one
| manufacturer that has low/no VOC oils which certainly
| shows it's possible but perhaps there's a good technical
| explanation for why VOCs are so common in these oil
| treatments.
| balls187 wrote:
| Don't wear outdoor shoes inside.
|
| We asians figured this out generations ago.
| Jerrrry wrote:
| based and culture-vs.-race-pilled.
| hcurtiss wrote:
| We may be an anomaly, but we have 13.5mm laminates[1]
| which I'd say were relatively high grade when we put them
| in. The product we used didn't come with stair kits so we
| had to do the staircase with oak stained to match. We
| have two full-size golden retrievers. Eight years later,
| the laminates look like the day we installed them --
| literally. The oak is all scratched up and will take a
| lot of work to refinish. [2] I was apprehensive about the
| laminates, and I'm definitely no Captain Planet, but I'll
| never have anything else. *edited to add imgur link.
|
| 1. https://www.pacmatpure.com/product/calypso-collection/
|
| 2. https://imgur.com/a/9QI5bC2
| LoganDark wrote:
| Does this page ever actually load?
| hcurtiss wrote:
| LOL - it did for me. It's also here, though it looks like
| it's 14mm now.
|
| https://www.floorcity.com/collections/calypso-laminate-
| floor...
| LoganDark wrote:
| That one works, thanks!
| xyzzyz wrote:
| Laminates are closer to hardwood flooring than to vinyl.
| Put it in simplest terms, they are basically the same as
| hardwood flooring, but you can only sand and refinish
| them maybe once or twice. This limits their lifespan,
| from 100+ years of full hardwood flooring to "only" a
| 30-40 years for laminate.
|
| Vinyl, on the other hand, is completely different, and is
| unlikely to survive daily use in serviceable state for
| more than 20 years, typically even less than that.
| mschulkind wrote:
| I think you're confusing terminology here. Laminate is
| generally the cheapest option with some sort of plastic
| over some sort of MDF type material. Definitely no option
| to refinish.
|
| You're describing engineered hardwood, which ironically
| often cost more than regular hardwood.
| hcurtiss wrote:
| I think you're right laminates probably cannot be
| refinished. But they are definitely much more
| expensive/premium than vinyl. I think we paid
| ~$3.50/square foot just in material cost. I think it's a
| kind of pressed fiberboard on top of a plastic core and a
| rubber'ish bottom.
| AlanYx wrote:
| I'm curious -- are there laminates that wear naturally?
| Looking at the photos in your second link, I think the
| laminates would look more natural and less overtly
| plastic if they did show a little wear similar to the
| oak.
| hcurtiss wrote:
| Living with the laminates, I wouldn't say they look
| overtly plastic. Hardwoods are definitely shiny too. You
| can see a very similar grain in the second photo with the
| oak. You're right that some wear might change the finish,
| but I would definitely not trade for the wear you see on
| the oak. My wife's parents have high-end oak hardwoods
| and full size dogs. Their flooring is a mess.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| The biggest problem with laminate flooring is not the
| wear, it's that if they get wet the compressed fiberboard
| absorbs the water and swells, and the surface warps, and
| the only repair is to replace. Some laminates are 100%
| waterproof for locations like bathrooms but many are not.
|
| Something like a spilled glass of water or puddle from
| wet shoes, if not noticed immediately and wiped up, can
| permanently ruin the floor.
| hcurtiss wrote:
| Yes, we were a little apprehensive about putting them in
| our three bathrooms. You pay more for better moisture
| resistance. Eight years later and ours still look like
| new, notwithstanding our kids getting out of showers
| multiple times a day. At least the flooring we got seem
| to handle water very well.
| duxup wrote:
| > Vinyl floors get scratched
|
| That's pretty hard to do on modern vinyl floors. Vinyl
| gets a bad rap because there were a lot of low end bad
| products, now there are some amazingly durable options.
| obscurette wrote:
| My house has original oak floors installed 85 years ago
| and there is still enough material left for 2-3 sandings.
| holoduke wrote:
| Buy you have ceramic alternatives. Wood looking ad
| well.Good in combination with floor heating and probably
| last for a 1000 years.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Ceramic flooring is so much colder than a real wood floor
| to me. I have no numerical data to offer as evidence to
| how it feels to me. However, walking into a house that
| has solid tile flooring vs a house with real wood
| flooring has a night/day difference in feel. I'm not
| necessarily just talking about Fdeg/Cdeg "colder". It's
| just a lot less "feels like home" with tile flooring.
| holoduke wrote:
| Yes you need to have floor heating. Here in the
| netherlands pretty standard in new houses. The tiles can
| look really like wood. Its expensive though and not easy
| to replace. No floor heating would be too cold indeed.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Like I mentioned, I was using the term "colder" much less
| in the sense of temperature/heat, but more in the sense
| of less inviting. Tile floors do not feel cozy. There's a
| sense of harshness. They are also much more active
| acoustically as well. Yes, I know furniture and rugs will
| mitigate some of that, but it's just not something that
| feels inviting. It's great for a bathroom or kitchen, but
| for living spaces and bedrooms, it's just not the right
| feel, to me.
| JAlexoid wrote:
| > generating no waste
|
| Have you ever redone flooring? Because there's definitely
| waste when hardwood floors are refinished. Arguably equal
| to replacing a segment of PVC flooring.
|
| But... The amount reflooring we do, it's not even a
| concern. Even if PVC comes from oil - flooring has years
| of service and isn't burned for fuel. It's what we call
| "durable goods". Quality PVC flooring doesn't scratch
| easily and doesn't require polyurethane refinishing.
|
| Reducing animal sourced food consumption would have a
| bigger impact, than abstaining from PVC floor planks.
| gopher_space wrote:
| Having worked on and lived with both, I'd rather cut out
| a section of parquet and replace it than refinish a
| hardwood floor. IMHO the problem with hardwood is that it
| takes regular maintenance that nobody really wants to do.
| The luminous floors in old buildings look that way
| because they've been oiled and buffed by people on their
| hands and knees for a hundred years.
| balls187 wrote:
| They can be, but how often are they in the time a home is
| owned by a single person?
|
| I mean if you care about waste single family homes are
| very inefficient.
| bastardoperator wrote:
| You're right if we're not accounting for time, energy,
| work, money, and being displaced while they're
| refinishing said floor in your waste assessment. My last
| house had real wood floors, you can't be there when it's
| happening, even water based lacquers have toxic fumes and
| particulates.
|
| Vinyl is cheaper, stronger, less prone to scratches than
| wood, more water resistant, and requires minimum
| maintenance and upkeep cost. Vinyl is also recyclable...
| alistairSH wrote:
| We went with a mid-grade LVP in the basement (ease of
| install, cost, and water-resistance). It's fine in that use
| case, but it has some drawbacks over wood. The primary one
| I've noticed is the damage pattern (from moving furniture,
| etc) isn't good - wood patinas better, where LVP just gets
| gouges. Maybe there are more expensive LVP options that
| don't do this.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| I prefer to use patina to refer to acceptable or even
| desirable wear, and in that sense, LVP doesn't patina at
| all, but rather gouges, as you say.
| simonsarris wrote:
| > look nearly indistinguishable
|
| maybe I'm top 1% neurotic about these things but I can tell
| from Zillow images alone. And definitely by feel of walking
| on them and the distinct noise they make. There's no
| comparison.
|
| I seriously doubt they are indistinguishable for most
| people, but I could be very wrong, especially since so many
| people go for them.
| thunfischbrot wrote:
| Most people just don't care or never knew the difference.
| Like keming, once you notice it, you will likely notice
| for the rest of your life.
| lovich wrote:
| That was physically painful to read, good example
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Yes. There is no way the extra costs of real hardwood are
| worth the supposed benefits, to me. LVP or LVT or
| whatever vinyl name is just so much cheaper and easier to
| work with, and as long as the floor is clean and
| presentable, the only difference I see is wood flooring
| being more expensive.
| jeremyjh wrote:
| Have you ever lived in a house with real wood floors? The
| difference you feel barefoot is quite noticeable. It may
| not be worth the cost to you, but it is definitely
| different.
| chmod600 wrote:
| Sometimes life is better when you just accept that
| something is different but not necessarily worse.
|
| Natural gas fireplaces aren't real wood-burning, and I
| can tell, but I just appreciate that they are way
| cleaner.
|
| Now, furniture is a different story. Wood is much better
| than the engineered crap. Try lifting a modern piece that
| looks like wood and maybe has a thin layer of wood (very
| heavy and easy to damage) and then try lifting something
| made of real wood (light and strong).
| Spivak wrote:
| But it's so much worse, we can squabble over particulars
| the minor day to day benefits of them both but the
| showstopper is that laminate is just trash waiting to
| happen. Hardwood floors can last 100+ years easy and can
| be maintained essentially indefinitely. And even if you
| don't maintain them they can be restored without too much
| trouble, there are previously abandoned houses that got
| flipped and are going for 600k with the original floors.
|
| Hardwood floors, tile roofs, ceramic freestanding
| bathtubs, and loose stone or brick pathways are never not
| worth the investment.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I have had no issues with "engineered crap" from IKEA.
| Even have dresser drawers from nearly 20 years ago
| currently in use.
|
| Another case where real wood provides no extra utility,
| to me. My furniture does not get tossed around, it does
| not need to be "strong".
| maccard wrote:
| > look nearly indistinguishable from real thing.
|
| Have to disagree here. Even at a glance they're totally
| different.
| chmod600 wrote:
| The worst are floors with a thin layer of hardwood surface
| (a few mm) over some "engineered" material below making up
| the rest of the plank.
|
| I'm not sure vinyl is indistinguishable from real hardwood,
| but I'd take it over a worst-of-both-worlds compromise.
| some-guy wrote:
| Good engineered hardwood has enough of a top wear layer
| that allows the same number of refinishes as solid
| hardwood (due to hitting the tongue and groove), plus you
| get better humidity performance.
| bickfordb wrote:
| The engineered flooring is generally superior technology:
|
| 1. It requires less hardwood (rare) for the veneer, and
| uses softwood (plentiful) for the plywood base. 2. It can
| be milled exactly to one thickness. Generally with solid
| hardwood floors you need to sand after installing to get
| everything into one plane due to moisture movement in the
| hardwood warping and twisting it. 3. It can be applied in
| wider planks. Wide solid hardwood floors tend to cup and
| contract and leave gaps after installation. The plywood
| base in engineered planks is cross laminated so that it
| is more stable and resist moisture changes
| munk-a wrote:
| There are very reasonable hardwood materials available -
| it's just better to prefer sourcing them from countries
| without illegal exploitation issues. Canadian hardwood is
| pretty affordable and quite durable for flooring - as an
| alternative.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > The funny thing is that I live in Brazil and it is quite
| rare to find houses with that type of flooring
|
| Does Brazilian Hardwood flooring actually mean the type of
| flooring Brazilians have or just simply that the hardwood
| being used as flooring is from Brazil?
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Another side of this is you really want to put economic value
| on sustainably harvesting these trees and preserving the
| forest, because if you say "no harvesting at all" then it's
| more profitable for someone to burn the forest down and replace
| it with cattle.
|
| Years ago tracking lumber from harvesting through the supply
| chain was one of the few convincing cases I heard for
| blockchain applications, where you have a sequence of people
| who don't trust each other and buyers want verification that
| the group cutting the trees was really only cutting and selling
| the amount they were allowed to. Haven't heard any more on that
| recently.
|
| EDIT - took a look for updates and I see the FSC has a "FSC
| Blockchain Beta pilot program"
|
| https://fsc.org/en/blockchain
| whyenot wrote:
| The problem is that in many cases tropical hardwoods are so
| slow growing and so intertwined with other species (both
| physically and metaphorically) that there isn't a way to
| harvest them sustainably. As a planet, we need to decide how
| much of these forests we are going to save, and then actually
| protect them. That may sound idealistic, but as someone who
| has spent a significant portion of my adult life working and
| studying tropical rainforests, I don't see another good
| option.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Certainly not in the volume for people to be using it for
| all their decks and flooring. Actual sustainable harvesting
| would probably price out everything but musical instruments
| and maybe some expensive outdoor furniture.
| Fatnino wrote:
| The formula seems pretty straightforward.
|
| Take the area of land we're willing to give over to
| lumber farming, divide by how long it takes to grow a
| tree to harvest and that's how much lumber demand can be
| met. Adjust price to make demand meet that limit.
| narrator wrote:
| It's also a good spot to try out the "free-market ecology"[1]
| economic system, where all resources extracted from the earth
| are included in a receipt to the end user of the product.
|
| [1] https://botsfordism.substack.com/p/free-market-ecology
| OfSanguineFire wrote:
| "the then president of Brazil said he would reveal which
| countries were the consumers of the illegally extracted wood
| from Amazonia."
|
| Could one of those countries be China? In Madagascar a decade
| ago, the felling of hardwood trees (even in supposedly
| protected national parks) was said to be largely driven by the
| Chinese furniture industry, and often when I passed a logging
| operation while cycling, there were Chinese overseeing the
| work. Considering Brazil-China trade links, no surprise if the
| then-president didn't want to rock that boat.
| marricks wrote:
| It's why you gotta burn ivory. When something is a luxury item
| for the wealthy rules don't really matter you have to destroy the
| market.
| mc32 wrote:
| Ivory isn't only for the rich customers of intricate ivory
| carving but also the run of the mill guy and gal going to the
| Chinese medicine apothecary.
|
| Not saying this exonerates the practice or anything --just that
| rich folk in Hong Kong/mainland CN aren't the only ones
| propping the market.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| Or explain people that ivory won't treat their ED. Or spread
| the rumor that ivory makes you flaccid.
| hanniabu wrote:
| With misinformation these days people will just think the
| government is trying to keep them from becoming healthy
| bluGill wrote:
| Unless it is a piano keyboard, because musicians are aware of
| this and so the only pianos with ivory keyboards have ivory
| from nearly 100 years ago. There would be interest in new ivory
| by a few (generally because they have an antique piano with one
| broken key), but they will demand proof that the ivory was
| sustainably harvested (There was a park a few years back
| overcrowd with elephants that was looking into providing such
| certification, though last I've heard they haven't figured out
| how to do this)
| hedora wrote:
| The technician that works on our piano reglued some of the
| ivory. He said that, in the worst case, he could give us a
| replacement, since he has a pile of antique ivory he got from
| the keys of ruined/rebuilt pianos.
|
| If we ever fully restore the keys, we'd opt for not-ivory.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Every pre-WW2 piano I've seen was crooked beyond repair and
| untunable. I bet there are far more donor instruments than
| functioning ones, considering that a lot can happen in 70
| years.
| bluGill wrote:
| There are, but not all ivory looks alike so finding a
| match is hard. Which is why someone who wants to restore
| an antique piano to new would be interested in new ivory
| if a sustainable source is available.
| adrian_b wrote:
| This must depend a lot on the humidity and temperature
| where the piano has been stored and used.
|
| I have a more than one hundred years old Austrian piano
| (made shortly before the start of the First WW), and it
| still works fine.
| notatoad wrote:
| >but they will demand proof that the ivory was sustainably
| harvested
|
| yes, i'm sure this is true for 100% of people buying fancy
| pianos, and "proof of sustainable harvest" isn't at all a
| loophole that gets used to sustain an illegal ivory trade.
| bluGill wrote:
| The music industry is very good about this. Which is
| actually easy because there is no current source of
| sustainable harvest ivory. (and when there was a source it
| was in such limited quantities that no major manufacture
| would bother)
| olliej wrote:
| This reminds me of "we only harvest X ebony trees" nonsense when
| what they mean is "we only _buy_ X amount of ebony, and we pay
| more for pure black, so people cut down many trees to find the
| relatively rare pure black ones"
| analog31 wrote:
| This has been an area of interest among musicians. I don't know
| how much of demand we account for. At this point it is widely
| accepted that ebony doesn't have to be jet black. The
| fingerboard of my double bass is a beautiful piece of ebony
| that is basically dark brown. I'm perfectly happy with it.
| aaronax wrote:
| Black locust is basically as good as ipe--competitive in
| characteristics like hardness and rot resistance, and I think
| slighly lower in price. It has been used for years for fence
| posts and now a lumber industry for it seems to be maturing.
| Apparently it grows like a weed and is even considered invasive
| in some places.
|
| I used black locust for a large porch and am very pleased with
| it.
| Loughla wrote:
| I'm not sure about black locust rot resistance. That's pretty
| heavily informed on when you harvest it. If you harvest in the
| spring, it won't last five years. It's only good if harvested
| in the dead of winter when there is no sap.
|
| Also, it doesn't grow large, often because it's so susceptible
| to disease. So there's that, too.
| arp242 wrote:
| Don't harvest in the spring then?
|
| Wikipedia says "It is very resistant to rot" and "In the
| Netherlands some other parts of Europe, black locust is one
| of the most rot-resistant local trees".
| Loughla wrote:
| I mean, that's fine, but only harvesting for a short
| portion of the year (during hard freeze after sap is out)
| severely limits the market and therefore increases cost.
|
| That has to be part of the issue, right?
| LeifCarrotson wrote:
| The bottleneck is growing the wood, not cutting it.
| Modern forestry equipment is insanely fast.
|
| Most agricultural crops have a very short seasonal window
| in which they can be harvested, but corn is not expensive
| because we only get one harvest per year, lumber is an
| anomaly in that respect.
| detourdog wrote:
| I use Black Locust despite being illegal here for its invasive
| species. There is no record of it in the original survey of
| trees and that is how it got the invasive label.
|
| The longer, clearer, and straighter you need tbe wood the worse
| black locusts becomes.
| nemo44x wrote:
| I've never heard of Black Locust and I don't recall it being an
| option when I built a deck a few years back (perhaps it was
| though!) but reading about it I wish I had. I ended up just
| using pressure treated pine (the exotics were 10's of thousands
| more) but when it's time to rebuild I'll certainly consider
| Black locust. Apparently it takes stain well too.
| foobarian wrote:
| My porch is made of that newfangled plastic wood and as much
| as I hate the idea, I love how long it will last.
| ljf wrote:
| We have had that plastic wood down for 5 years and it is
| perfect. 2 years ago I extended a small bit of decking and
| used real wood as it isn't that visible and was so much
| cheaper. Already two years after it looks terrible and I'll
| be amazed if it lasts 5 years. Sadly plastic wood is
| brilliant. I can see it outlasting the frame it is built
| on.
| nemo44x wrote:
| You need to seal and stain the wood. Depending on the
| brand that could mean every year or every 2 or 3 years.
| The wood will rot otherwise. But maintained then pressure
| treated pine (or outdoor hardwood) will last a long time.
|
| You've also pointed out the problem with plastic. It
| fades and if you were to add new plastic it would look
| off.
| digging wrote:
| Will it? I'm not aware of any plastics that are insanely
| durable, they just don't rot. But treated wood also doesn't
| rot. I'd expect a lot of weathering and surface degradation
| at a similar rate to typical woods.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| My big concern is UV stabilization. Plastic can be
| stabilized but how can i be sure the product i buy is
| actually UV stabilized? I don't want a deck that may turn
| to powder because the manufacturer skipped a step of the
| process.
| nemo44x wrote:
| They have serious issues with mold and mildew as well.
| They also get rather hot.
|
| They're fine for certain people I guess but I don't like
| how they look. And if you ever have to replace a part it
| will look weird as the deck will be faded except the new
| part.
| digging wrote:
| > They also get rather hot.
|
| I've noticed that as well on plastic decks I've been on.
| They feel bad on feet and seemingly get hotter than wood
| (but that could be an illusion).
| dwater wrote:
| > treated wood also doesn't rot
|
| That is a pretty broad statement so perhaps you're
| thinking of a different thing than me when you say
| "treated wood", but the typical pressure treated pine you
| get at big box home improvement stores will absolutely
| rot. They reformulated the treating agent in 2004 so it's
| no longer using arsenic, and since then pressure treated
| wood just doesn't last as long. Generally in my area,
| fences and decks built with standard pressure treated
| pine look good for about 6 months, then look bad for 5
| years, then start to fall apart.
| digging wrote:
| Is your wood unstained? If you stain or paint it, wood
| should be lasting longer than 5 years. I think my mom
| rebuilt her wooden deck after about 10 years at least.
|
| I don't know what this plastic wood is tbh, but I'm
| having a hard time imagining any plastic surface looking
| good after 5 years of rain, sun, and boots. Maybe if you
| sand it down annually. I'm not a fan of grinding
| microplastics into my yard.
| jabl wrote:
| > I don't know what this plastic wood is tbh
|
| It's basically combining wood fibres with a plastic resin
| (instead of lignin as in natural wood), then manufactured
| with some kind of molding or extrusion process.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood%E2%80%93plastic_compos
| ite
| wintogreen74 wrote:
| It's likely color-throughout as well, so never needs to be
| refinished. A birthday cake with sparklers did some pitting
| damage to mine though.
|
| I will never use real wood for a flat outdoor surface
| again.
| nemo44x wrote:
| Nah they fade and look bad after a few years. Any damage
| can't really be fixed either without the replacement
| sticking out.
|
| They're sort of fine but they'll need replacing just the
| same, tend to get very hot, hard to change, and are not
| very flattering.
| mbreese wrote:
| I don't know about the fading. My in laws have a dock
| built out of it, and aside from it getting hot in the
| sun, the color is still pretty consistent between shaded
| and non-shaded sections.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| I did an enormous amount of research when replacing my deck
| this summer and BL was top of my list. My experience trying to
| source it here in Eastern PA was, to put it mildly, off-
| putting, as everyone I spoke to wanted to, unprompted, spend
| the first 30 minutes of the conversation telling me how shady
| their competitors were, especially when it came to claims of
| domestic sourcing.
|
| I ended up doing a kind of 180 and installing Accoya wood,
| which, geographically and species-wise is about the furthest
| thing from BL available, but felt to me like a good investment
| in longevity and thus embodied carbon, even when accounting for
| the long boat trip(s) to my place.
| solomonb wrote:
| How did you like Accoya? I've been thinking about using it
| for a few projects.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| It's absolutely gorgeous and very very expensive. Unlike
| the other comment I absolutely can tell the difference
| between synthetic and natural woods and in general while I
| don't have a blanket issue with man-made materials, I do
| have an issue with ersatz anything, almost to the degree of
| having an allergy. For that reason I was boxed into real
| woods, and from a sustainability (and toxicity) and
| performance perspective, I didn't find a ton of options
| beyond black locust or thermally modified or acetylated
| woods. Accoya was everything I wanted except cheap, and it
| is clearly real wood, which, sadly, seems luxurious today.
|
| Just installed it so can't speak to longevity but
| encouraged by the 50 year warranty against structural
| issues caused by fungal decay or rot, or against swell or
| shrinkage > 2.5%.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| I should also mention that it doesn't get hot at all,
| even in very hot summer full-sun conditions. Very nice to
| walk on barefoot - it feels very soft to the touch.
| fanatic2pope wrote:
| Osage Orange is another interesting domestic species that is
| extremely strong and also resistant to rot. I use it as a
| contrast wood for projects where I don't mind the colour change
| from bright orange to black over time. Things like small inlays
| but especially as pegs for draw bored mortise and tenon joints.
| A quick online check reveals it is sold in sizes probably
| useful for building decks.
| hinkley wrote:
| It is notoriously difficult to dry Osage orange without
| cracking. If you can get a solid piece it's extremely
| durable. Pretty good mechanical properties too. Handles that
| go for days.
|
| The amusing thing about Osage is we lived in a subdivision
| that contained the old boundary of a farm, so all of our
| neighbors had a row of "problem" Osage orange on their back
| property line. 18" or bigger, tall and looming. And now I
| know people who actually want it.
| jprd wrote:
| > keming
|
| This clonal tree is a menace, and should definitely be
| harvested for use. The amount of scars I have from their INSANE
| thorns when young is getting too much to count.
| solomonb wrote:
| Another interesting option is Accoya lumber. It is acetylated
| softwood performs as well as traditional hardwoods in exterior
| applications. It looks nice too.
| viewtransform wrote:
| Had to look up the treatment process - it's pickeled wood!
| https://www.accoya.com/acetylation-what-is-it-and-what-is-
| ac...
| everybodyknows wrote:
| By "exclusive" is apparently meant high-priced. Those of us who
| are excluded, or object to becoming complicit in denuding
| forests, will build our decks out of pressure-treated pine and
| Trex.
| doctorhandshake wrote:
| I hated these options as well and thus did a bunch of research
| into thermally-modified and acetylated timber. I'd recommend
| investigating those options if you don't want plastic or PT.
| hedora wrote:
| The article suggests FSC certification is inadequate, and that
| consumers should establish the provenance of wood on a per-
| transaction basis.
|
| What percentage of FSC-certified wood is illegally harvested?
| spandextwins wrote:
| Plant more trees. Now. Find a spot in your yard or common area
| and plant a tree.
| nikanj wrote:
| As if we millennials had yards
| spandextwins wrote:
| Go plant where you can. No excuses. Do it today.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| I'm not going to trespass to plant a tree.
| spandextwins wrote:
| I don't understand why people are downvoting advice to plant
| trees. Are there so many anti-tree people out there? I'll bet
| they use toilet paper...but maybe not. All that paper and wood
| has to come from somewhere. Replace and replenish.
| jeromegv wrote:
| Because planting a tree in your yard has nothing to do with
| the deforestation of the Amazon and the impact it has on this
| very unique ecosystem?
| spandextwins wrote:
| They can plant trees too.
| OfSanguineFire wrote:
| As the OP says, the Amazon is a unique ecosystem. It's an
| old-growth rainforest. Planting trees only creates new-
| growth forests that, while nice, are ecologically very
| different.
| alliao wrote:
| trees on 10cm of top soil is just not safe man...
| ulrischa wrote:
| Ipe wood is known for its extreme hardness and durability. In
| fact, it's so dense that it can sink in water. So nothing for
| motorboating.
| mschulkind wrote:
| That's not why boats float. Notice metal and concrete boats
| exist.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| You could probably make a boat from lead if you wanted to,
| thinking about it.
| thomasstephan wrote:
| To be spending a lot of time working in the rainforest in Peru
| where logging (legal and illegal) is everywhere, you can't trace
| properly. Certificates are easy to forge, the entire pipeline is
| pen and paper. How can you tell once the legal wood and the
| illegal wood are in a container which is which? You can't.
|
| So many people here are outraged, how many of you are supporting
| on the ground teams protecting rainforests?
|
| If you care, do your research, support causes like
| https://www.junglekeepers.org (disclaimer here; that is the one I
| know, work for and support) and don't use exotic woods.
| finite_depth wrote:
| I wonder if there's a way to tag trees to stop this. Like,
| spray the protected wood with some harmless-but-detectable dose
| of a radioisotope so you can tell which wood is which.
| hindsightbias wrote:
| shotgun rfid?
| theoreticalmal wrote:
| That would only be useful until the mill, at which point
| the tags would be either destroyed, or limited to specific
| pieces and removed from the rest
| theoreticalmal wrote:
| Not a bad idea! There would have to be a system for
| determining lumber that was previously illegal to cut but has
| since become legal. Maturity of the tree or land ownership
| changed, etc.
| noah_buddy wrote:
| Or if there's a way to ruin the wood for woodworking without
| killing the tree itself. It seems like you would need to do
| something really clever. Inject it with capsaicin?
| wxnx wrote:
| Tree spiking is one example of this. It's so common as to
| be illegal in the United States [1]. Unfortunately, without
| strict worker protections, it's conceivable that workers
| would be the ones to pay for their employers' (or their
| upstream suppliers') illegal actions.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_spiking
| jrace wrote:
| It's not just conceivable, it is real.
|
| Workers in the mill are the ones who will die or suffer
| significant trauma when the blade hits the spike.
| asah wrote:
| the counterattack: spray _all_ the trees with the stuff.
| earth2jason wrote:
| Unfortunately, their sites are not very friendly to privacy
| oriented browsers.
| dheera wrote:
| I'm always torn between building things out of wood vs. other
| materials.
|
| I hate cutting down trees. But at the same time wood seems like
| a way to sequester carbon from the atmosphere into things that
| will last a very, very long time. It seems like I could build
| carbon-negative furniture out of wood, as opposed to carbon-
| positive furniture out of other materials. As long as those
| trees are re-planted. I want assurance that when I buy lumber
| it's regenerative.
| TylerH wrote:
| If you buy pine or oak or cedar you can be pretty darn sure
| it is regenerative. That's how the industry is able to exist:
| they cut the same fields of trees every 15-30 years.
|
| If you're concerned, you can always plant a tree or two
| somewhere for every project you do that uses wood. There are
| lots of places that let you plant trees even outside your own
| property.
| foxyv wrote:
| This is why I stick to locally grown native species of wood. My
| favorite is Red Oak but Black Walnut is a close second. Both are
| amazing woods with excellent qualities. Best way to make sure you
| aren't funding organizations that are killing people and
| destroying forests.
| majestic5762 wrote:
| IKEA's Assault on Romania's Ancient Forests:
|
| * IKEA faces allegations of aggressively exploiting the last of
| Romania's ancient forests.
|
| * Ivestigations in the U.S. document IKEA's rush against time to
| exploit these forests.
|
| * The primary motivation for this deforestation is sheer profit.
|
| * Documented evidence shows complete and illegal clear-cutting of
| forests under IKEA's direction.
|
| Romania's Forests - Europe's Amazon:
|
| * Romania is home to one of the world's last and largest ancient
| forests. The Carpathian Mountains in Romania house half of the
| remaining ancient forests, often termed as the "Amazon of
| Europe."
|
| Economic Incentives and Unchecked Exploitation:
|
| * Romania's entry into the European Union in 2007 opened markets
| for its abundant and cheap timber.
|
| _Political inefficiency and corruption have enabled unchecked
| deforestation and exploitation.
|
| _ Reports suggest that more than half of Romania 's timber is
| exploited illegally.
|
| IKEA's Dubious Role:
|
| * IKEA stands as the world's largest individual wood consumer,
| its demand growing by about 2 million trees annually.
|
| * In 2015, IKEA began buying vast tracts of forests in Romania,
| quickly becoming the largest private forest owner there.
|
| * IKEA has been linked to suppliers involved in illegal wood
| acquisitions, including notable names like Kronospan, Egger, and
| Schweighofer.
|
| * The company has a pattern of aggressive forest acquisitions and
| connections with both legal and illegal suppliers, not only in
| Romania but also in countries like Ukraine and Russia.
|
| LGBTQ+ Campaign as a Distraction:
|
| * IKEA's promotion of LGBTQ+ rights is portrayed as a smokescreen
| to divert attention from its environmental and corporate
| malpractices.
|
| * The promotion of LGBTQ+ ideologies, while noble in other
| contexts, is seen here as a corporate strategy to overshadow
| their illicit activities.
|
| IKEA's Ideological Dominance:
|
| * IKEA is not just a neutral space; it's portrayed as an
| ideological stronghold.
|
| * There have been instances where employees were allegedly fired
| for not conforming to IKEA's political stance. * A Polish court
| had to intervene to reinstate an employee terminated on such
| grounds.
|
| A Moral and Environmental Dilemma:
|
| * Romania faces a choice: to focus on rampant deforestation and
| exploitation by giants like IKEA or to be sidetracked by
| ideological debates while being economically and morally
| overshadowed by such corporations.
|
| See https://r3media.ro/ikea-distrugerea-ultimelor-paduri-
| secular...
| analog31 wrote:
| As a musician, this saddens me, because the Carpathian
| mountains may be the last source of really good wood for string
| instruments. New growth wood might not be a substitute because
| global warming and modern breeding are speeding up growth, and
| narrow growth rings are preferred.
|
| Progress is being made on synthetic materials. My cello and
| bass bows are all carbon fiber. Carbon fiber instruments are
| gradually improving.
| cm2012 wrote:
| Hardwood in the USA is mostly farm grown, so I'm not concerned.
| dheera wrote:
| I've seen a good deal of wood at USA's Home Depots that isn't
| grown in the USA.
|
| Last time I bought some pine lumber for a project at Home Depot
| there was a bunch from New Zealand and a bunch from USA, the
| stuff from New Zealand was cut to much better precision.
| TylerH wrote:
| The hardwood family this article is about, ipe, is not grown at
| all in the US.
| nkurz wrote:
| Are you sure? If you mean that most hardwood in the US was
| "managed" at some point as a woodlot, then I guess it might be
| true, but if you mean that most hardwood in the US was
| specifically planted to be harvested, I'm very doubtful.
|
| I'm far from an expert, but I am in the process of planning our
| hardwood harvest in Vermont. The northeastern US produces a lot
| of hardwood and my impression is that approximately 0% is
| "farmed".
|
| Can you point to sources? My attempt at searching didn't
| produce much either way. If you are right, I'd love to update
| my false impression. Or are you possibly confusing "hardwood"
| with "softwood", such as pine?
| vevioz wrote:
| The illegal harvesting of hardwood is a significant global issue,
| with recent studies indicating that as much as 75% of exclusive
| hardwood may be illegally harvested1. This article explores the
| extent of this problem, its implications, and potential
| solutions. https://www.vevioz.com/read-blog/57388_the-illegal-
| harvestin...
| vevioz wrote:
| The illegal harvesting of exclusive hardwood such as ipe is a
| pressing global issue with far-reaching environmental and socio-
| economic impacts. While significant strides have been made in
| identifying risks and implementing measures to counteract illegal
| logging, ongoing vigilance and innovation are required to protect
| our valuable forest resources. https://www.vevioz.com/read-
| blog/57388_the-illegal-harvestin...
| nateskulic wrote:
| I think I've seen it done locally, in the USA... "Forest
| Preserves" cutting down old growth maple/oaks, and piling the
| massive logs in parking lots until hauled away... I think I've
| also seen significant "over-pruning" for the sake of the
| construction of various pathways and "theme parks" for humans.
| jdietrich wrote:
| This article was obsolete before it was written.
|
| The species commercially traded as Ipe (Handroanthus spp.,
| Roseodendron spp. and Tabebuia spp.) were submitted by Columbia
| and Panama last year for inclusion in CITES Appendix II. This
| submission was accepted, meaning that the international trade in
| these woods will be subject to strict controls as of 25 November
| 2024. Any international trade must be accompanied by an export
| permit issued by a national Management Authority, certifying that
| the wood was harvested in a manner that is compatible with the
| long-term survival of the species.
|
| CITES enforcement is no joke and the listing of Ipe in Appendix
| II is likely to hugely reduce demand, due to the substantial
| bureaucratic burden and legal risk that importers will be exposed
| to. Guitarists will be all too familiar with the impact of CITES,
| following the listing of Rosewood in Appendix II in 2017. Until
| an exemption for musical instruments was negotiated in 2019,
| guitars with rosewood fingerboards practically disappeared from
| the market - the risks for importers and distributors were simply
| too great to reasonably manage.
|
| https://cites.org/sites/default/files/eng/cop/19/prop/as_rec...
|
| https://cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php
| pvaldes wrote:
| As botanical footnote: All this trees called lapachos are in
| the Bignoniaceae family. Lapachos have huge ornamental value
| and hold the equivalent place as the cherry trees in the
| northern hemisphere. They are cultured in all the big cities
| that have the correct climate; by their fantastic bloom in
| bright yellow, pink or pure white and their role as a cultural
| symbol.
|
| This means that some lapacho wood can have legal origins also
| charles_f wrote:
| > [as a consumer, ask] Where exactly does the wood come from? Is
| there documentation of the origin of the wood and its path
| through the production chain?
|
| Realistically no-one will tell you that the thing you want to buy
| is illegally harvested wood. Most sales people won't know, won't
| understand the question to begin with, and won't care enough to
| provide the information. And if they do know, incentives go
| against being honest and transparent. So I doubt this is very
| useful
| ziddoap wrote:
| > _So I doubt this is very useful_
|
| It becomes useful if a big enough percentage of potential
| customers ask this question and if an insufficient answer is
| given decide to shop elsewhere (at a place that can provide a
| sufficient answer).
| remus wrote:
| > Realistically no-one will tell you that the thing you want to
| buy is illegally harvested wood.
|
| They might tell you if it has been harvested legally though, as
| that is often a selling point. And if they don't know and can't
| find out then you could move on to a different supplier.
| m463 wrote:
| If you walk through many of the mountains in the bay area, where
| redwoods dominate, you will notice a sad fact.
|
| After the earthquake in 1906 san francisco basically burned down.
| And that led to all the redwoods on all the bay area mountains
| being clear cut for wood and lime.
|
| In Henry Cowell state park (and others) you'll find some trees
| that survived.
|
| One that was cut down is shown in a cross section with the rings
| marked.
|
| Some rings are marked:
|
| - 1 Birth of Jesus/Modern Calendar Begins
|
| - 105 Chinese Invented Paper
|
| The redwoods you see now are still giants, hundreds of feet tall.
| But notice they are clustered in groups around a stump or an
| empty area where an old-grown redwood used to stand.
|
| it is sort of like walking in a graveyard.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-10-26 23:01 UTC)