[HN Gopher] 22-year-old builds chips in his parents' garage (2022)
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22-year-old builds chips in his parents' garage (2022)
Author : pabs3
Score : 254 points
Date : 2023-10-20 09:34 UTC (2 days ago)
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(TXT) w3m dump (www.wired.com)
| barelyauser wrote:
| I have a feeling that making chips at home will require the
| ditching of silicon based technology. Yes, this will be
| accompanied by performance loss. Perhaps organic semiconductors
| have less complicated processes. Or techniques like molecular
| self assembly, nano imprinting, etc.
| jstanley wrote:
| Yes, perhaps making electronics out of self-assembling
| molecules is a less complicated process than photolithography.
| vitiral wrote:
| Thin film lithography is the most promising IMO. Low
| temperature and can be done on glass instead of purified
| silicone.
| t0e wrote:
| https://archive.ph/iGei9
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| It really is wild what you can do in your garage these days.
| Since the early 2010's there has been a true revolution in this
| space that has only accelerated over the last few years. I have
| an injection molding machine that I built in my garage for less
| than $1500 USD that has a 3 cubic inch injection volume, able to
| make a large variety of plastic components at small production
| scale using a mold I printed from my $500 USD resin printer. A
| guy I met at the maker space has a literal pick and place and
| wave soldering machine in his garage and he is etching wafers on
| his desktop CNC. Hardware has never been more accessible.
|
| Hardware is still really hard. But it's definitely something
| someone with a software salary can bootstrap in their garage
| these days. Especially because I can go to JLCPCB and get some
| reasonably complex fully assembled prototype boards shipped to me
| in a week or two for $5-20 USD per unit. Ridiculously nice
| brailsafe wrote:
| I wonder where I could get the salary needed to have a garage,
| seems like that's the important bit ;)
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| Live somewhere cheaper and you can make enough to have a
| garage by painting houses or mowing lawns.
| OccamsMirror wrote:
| Not in Australia. Even rural is expensive.
| ekianjo wrote:
| Leave Australia :-)
| 111111101101 wrote:
| This is the answer. Young people especially need to
| realise that this country doesn't want them.
| dottjt wrote:
| Interestingly, as a young Australian, I've thought about
| this a lot and I genuinely struggle to find a better
| country to live in.
|
| We have our share of problems, but compared to the
| problems of other countries, I can't help but feel
| they're significantly less.
|
| A large part of it being how isolated we are from the
| rest of the world and all the benefits that provides. Not
| to mention the low population density of the country as a
| whole.
| flask_manager wrote:
| It really depends what specific circumstances you are
| comparing. If you are looking at trades, low skill full
| time, or casual work, I dont think there is a better
| place to be. If you are comparing the lifestyle available
| from a full time skilled job (tech especially) its
| honestly not great.
|
| Work anywhere in Asia, and while your wage may be lower,
| what you get for it goes a whole lot further. Restaurants
| are a focus, but things like a regular cleaner, doorman,
| club memberships are a whole lot more accessible. Things
| that are really only available in Australia to
| generational wealth these days, are available to skilled
| employees.
|
| Work in western Europe, and the wages are slightly
| higher, and the cost of living is slightly lower; however
| the expectation for work-life balance is far better. 38hr
| weeks are very strict, with an expectation of flex time
| and time in lieu. with more weeks off, and better access
| to things like parental leave and study accommodations.
|
| People make poor comparisons to America, because its a
| very hard thing to generalize. From my personal
| experience as a skilled full time worker, there is not
| one metric where Australia is a clear winner, and many
| where its far behind. The top end of healthcare is better
| in the USA, and if you factor in the lower taxes cheaper
| too. Crime statistics are worse, but localized to places
| I have no reason to go... I would say that USA as country
| is worse, but if you only look at the experience of
| someone who already has a skilled job, then you come out
| far ahead in the states.
| dottjt wrote:
| I would have to disagree about the full time skilled job
| comment.
|
| I work remotely for a tech company and to say that you
| can barely work in Australia whilst earning a very decent
| salary, is an understatement. 2 - 3 hours a day, at most
| (at least in tech). Some days you don't even have to do
| anything. And this is most large companies (although it
| depends on your rank).
|
| This factor alone makes Australia an amazing place to
| live, excluding all the other reasons to live here.
|
| Compared to America and Asia, if I have to work 3-4 times
| harder than I currently am, what am I actually gaining?
| I'm just losing time to live the life I truly want. No
| thank you.
| sgt wrote:
| Come here to South Africa. In fact a lot of South African
| "expats" are moving back. Many, many places are extremely
| decent and lifestyle can be excellent.
| dottjt wrote:
| It could just be the media, but I've heard nothing but
| terrible things about South Africa.
|
| Failing government. Constant crime. Water shortages.
| Power blackouts. Is it perhaps different if you're living
| in a gated community?
| sgt wrote:
| Depends where you live. I don't live in a gated community
| and I am not affected directly by crime. Power blackouts
| is called loadshedding and has to do with capacity. Get
| solar and batteries and you will be immune to that. It's
| being fixed too.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > We have our share of problems, but compared to the
| problems of other countries, I can't help but feel
| they're significantly less
|
| Covid camps and police take down for people jogging
| without masks did not convince you to move? I guess
| nothing will
| kiwih wrote:
| How about the following list of 10 cities/towns in
| Australia with property around 100-300k AUD?
|
| https://www.mpamag.com/au/mortgage-industry/guides/what-
| are-...
| roganartu wrote:
| The first town on the list is a place famous for building
| houses underground due to the heat on the surface being
| too extreme. It's also in the middle of nowhere.
|
| The rest are country towns, not suburban ones. Where you
| need to drive hours to get to anything approaching what
| you might think of as "downtown", and even then there's
| not gonna be a lot there.
|
| The reality in Australia is that the vast majority of the
| population lives within 100km of the east coast. It's not
| like America where there are literally thousands of
| decent-sized small towns (tens of thousands of people),
| there just isn't enough population for that. Almost half
| the population lives in two cities (Melbourne and Sydney)
| and neither of these are affordable places no matter how
| far out into the suburbs you go.
| catmanjan wrote:
| Good luck painting houses and mowing lawns in Coober Pedy
| haha
| stephen_g wrote:
| If you work remotely (but don't need a great internet
| connection to do so), don't mind having absolutely
| minimal amenities, cultural activities (apart from a few
| tourist traps), international airports etc. within a day
| or two's drive... then sure.
|
| Usually these places are cheap because there is little
| economy (so few jobs), so most of the even slightly
| ambitious youth escape to the cities or larger towns in
| the area, which leaves them with 'interesting'
| demographics.
|
| This is an interesting inversion actually, because things
| like meth and then the associated crime are much more of
| a problem in the country than the cities here, which is
| kind of the opposite of what you hear about the cities
| being dangerous in places like the US.
| _kb wrote:
| Here's a write up of number #4:
| https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-18/tara-isolated-
| rural-b.... There's a reason for that pricing.
| femto wrote:
| #3 Port Pirie is (in)famous for its lead contamination
| [1].
|
| #5 Queenstown is also contaminated [2]. It's an
| interesting place to visit, as the surrounds look like
| the moon [3], since the contamination stop anything from
| growing.
|
| The rest could be nice?
|
| [1] https://theconversation.com/lead-poisoning-of-port-
| pirie-chi...
|
| [2] https://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/tasmanian-lakes-
| metal-c...
|
| [3] https://www.google.com/search?q=queenstown+moonscape&
| tbm=isc...
| _kb wrote:
| # 9 Charleville - I've not lived there, but I've visited.
| For a sense of the remoteness, when the International
| Space Station passes overhead, it's twice as close as the
| nearest major city.
| femto wrote:
| Sounds like astronomy heaven.
| SturgeonsLaw wrote:
| Tara, QLD, is where people who want to be forgotten go to
| disappear. There are off grid shanty towns in the area,
| one of which was the site of a fatal ambushing of police
| officers last year.
|
| https://inqld.com.au/insights/2022/12/14/police-shooting-
| tra...
|
| There's a reason these places are cheap.
| ChainOfFools wrote:
| Recently moved into a four-bedroom home in a moderately
| desirable suburb of Los Angeles. I myself work in tech
| field and my spouse is university faculty. Our subdiv is
| a large tract of homes built 15-25 years ago, all in the
| mid six figures to just a hair over seven.
|
| At least three of the neighbors within sight of my own
| house are some sort of residential construction or
| property trade contractor. Two are public school
| teachers. At least one paints houses for a living. It is
| apparently totally possible to work a trade and live a
| recently comfortable lifestyle. I'm not saying it's easy,
| and I'm not saying that there is a straightforward path
| to break in to that lifestyle but it is evidently more
| than abundantly possible.
| reactordev wrote:
| Most tradespeople I know can't afford "hair over seven"
| figures for a home. Everyone in your neighborhood is
| house poor. They are banking on equity. They had a
| sizable upfront down payment.
|
| Like I said, all the tradespeople I know are struggling
| with lower 6, much less hair over 7.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| But do you work in the trades in places where the median
| home is $800k? Trade wages are probably better in socal.
| reactordev wrote:
| They do. Median home value here is $950k. All of my
| trades friends are house poor and asking family for
| assistance.
| thfuran wrote:
| I suspect the key to that success is having bought in
| before the house prices significantly increased.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| I know tradies with massive houses and smallholdings
| within 50 miles of London. I've also lived with tradies
| in a 4-person semi-legal HMO.
|
| The error bars here are huge.
| _fizz_buzz_ wrote:
| I don't quite get why Australia is so expensive. It's
| basically all empty land (bigger than the EU and the
| population of the Netherlands). Shouldn't it be dirt
| cheap?
| literalAardvark wrote:
| The bits that aren't a desert and people want to live in
| are actually fairly populated.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Honestly the big stark difference between Australia and
| the US seems to be immigration. There might be a
| fundamental lack of a labor pool that might have been
| building out comparable infrastructure and housing supply
| that we see in similarly geographic sized US.
| amelius wrote:
| Other options:
|
| 1. Find a job where you have a workspace or a lab to tinker
| in.
|
| 2. Find a makerspace/hackerspace in your neighborhood.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Simple, just inherit a house with a garage :P
| mitthrowaway2 wrote:
| Indeed. The hardest part these days is getting access to a
| garage.
| chocolatelab82 wrote:
| I store a lot of crap in my garage.
| ccorcos wrote:
| I'm constantly surprised how tech folks seem to undervalue
| the suburbs.
| dleslie wrote:
| Most American suburbs are awful if you enjoy any sort of
| regular physical activity, and simply prefer to walk to the
| market instead of drive.
|
| They're amazing if you love sitting in traffic.
| resonious wrote:
| Sounds like they're also good if you want a garage to
| tinker in!
| trimethylpurine wrote:
| I'm in a suburb. Not an expensive one. Downtown is a 20
| minute drive in light traffic. Within a 10 minute walk
| there are office buildings, grocery stores, shopping
| mall, gyms, parks, hiking and biking trails, etc. There
| are many cities to choose from; some are better planned
| than others. Based on your comment I would guess that
| you've opted to live in one of the "cool" cities in
| America.
| xvedejas wrote:
| That you need to drive to downtown suggests you might not
| have much garage space after all?
| saulpw wrote:
| No one parks in the garage in the suburbs :) They either
| park in the driveway or on the street, both of which have
| ample room to store vehicles.
| checkyoursudo wrote:
| I tried parking in my garage for a while, but the car
| took up too much valuable space.
| doubled112 wrote:
| This is it. My garage is full of kid's stuff. I don't
| have a backyard for a shed, plus my landlords installed
| shelving on all three sides, some not above car roof
| level.
|
| If we want to park a car in there, it's about an hour of
| moving stuff out of the way. I stand at the back as a
| spotter while my wife drives at me. Once she hit me, she
| turns the car off and climbs out through the back seat. I
| then climb over the roof of the car.
|
| I wish I was making this up. Glad it's 12 years old with
| no sun roof. I don't have to feel bad about sliding over
| it.
| gautamcgoel wrote:
| Which city are you in?
| saurik wrote:
| If we knew, we might all move there and ruin it ;P.
| CodeNest wrote:
| hahahaha :)
| trimethylpurine wrote:
| Exactly.
| assimpleaspossi wrote:
| Was going to say the same. I have never lived in a house
| that did not have a garage.
| tjrgergw wrote:
| Would you please share which city is this, that has
| everything within 10 minute walk in its suburbs?
|
| I'm a European who's lived in an "American downtown"
| because I was told the suburbs are horrible, but what
| you're describing sounds great.
| xw3098 wrote:
| Price is relative. That could be Los Altos, California.
| Which is very nice, walkable with garages, great parks
| and outdoors, but not what most people would call
| affordable. :)
| trimethylpurine wrote:
| I would argue that it's objectively cheaper to live in
| the suburbs. And I can assert with confidence that
| $100/mo in HOA fees provides walkable parks, trails,
| pools, gyms, tennis courts, basketball courts, etc. I
| vote on the financial management of all these things so I
| can be sure they are provided by that amount of money,
| objectively. Major builders do suburbs like this one
| across the country. And they make a killing managing them
| too.
|
| Where are you? SF? SD? NY? Miami? You're paying a premium
| for the right to brag about it. Not for the amenities.
| acheron wrote:
| > because I was told the suburbs are horrible
|
| Probably shouldn't be taking advice from Reddit.
| carom wrote:
| Columbia, MD was one of the earlier planned suburbs. Each
| neighborhood has a grocery store. Worth looking at.
| trimethylpurine wrote:
| I won't. But I'm basically describing the entire USA
| except the coasts, and a few major cities in between. For
| perspective, houses in SF sell for 10x the value per
| square foot compared with my neighborhood. And I'm not
| remotely in the cheapest place in the country. America is
| big. Look around. There is a LOT of space in the middle.
| jhatemyjob wrote:
| Silicon Valley is great for running and biking. Just look
| at Rancho San Antonio for example.
| dottjt wrote:
| I think the key is to have everything delivered to you.
| Once you figure that out, suburbs are great.
|
| Of course, it's not equivalent to being able to walk to
| places, but I feel the pros outweigh the cons in terms of
| what you do get from the suburbs.
| reactordev wrote:
| >"I think the key is to have everything delivered to
| you."
|
| This is why we can't have nice things. We simply can't
| rely on a class of workers to dote on us simply because
| we fancy living in the burbs. The amount of waste just so
| you can get your instacart. The reality is near 8%
| mortgages have put suburbs with garages out of reach for
| almost everyone without a trust fund or selling their
| startup.
| dbtc wrote:
| What if robots did it?
| jeffreygoesto wrote:
| Worse. The main damage is done building things and robots
| have a much higher total cost of being developed and
| built.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| True to first order, not to second. Economy of scale
| making robots cheaper would dramatically improve
| economies and the environment.
|
| Simple example would be to reduce the scale up and
| install cost of clean energy.
| reactordev wrote:
| If we had pick and pack robots and delivery drones that
| were powered by solar fields and alternative energy, I
| would say that's about as close to carbon neutral
| logistics as we can get. Trucking and freight are still
| exorbitantly polluting but the heavy "last mile"
| pollution problem would be traded with increased overhead
| air traffic. The reality is: a self driving car with a
| delivery robot is probably going to be our answer in
| 2040.
| vasco wrote:
| > We simply can't rely on a class of workers to dote on
| us simply because we fancy living in the burbs
|
| You make zero sense. Going to the grocery store involves
| the same workers helping you pay for gas and selling you
| groceries, or cooking your meals. Are you a recluse that
| interacts with zero workers? Who in their right mind
| calls someone else out for using a regular service? You'd
| prefer those people to not have jobs surely.
| _visgean wrote:
| Its about efficiency, a grocery store will require one
| large supply truck. Supplying everyone to their home
| requires way more people and energy.
| mewpmewp2 wrote:
| Wouldn't delivery be more efficient than people not
| practiced at logistics delivering thinga to their homes
| back and forth themselves?
| reactordev wrote:
| Possibly if that last mile delivery was carried out by
| people who were also practiced in logistics. This is
| never the case. It's better for you to find a means of
| transportation to get your staples of living than to pay
| someone else to use any means of transportation to
| provide you your bananas.
|
| The planet can't take any more "conveniences" on our
| behalf. We need to find a more efficient way of
| delivering goods and getting our goods. Throwing your
| hands up and saying "I'll just get everything delivered"
| is about the worst option you can do from a logistics
| perspective to reduce carbon.
| vasco wrote:
| There's no end to that game of efficiency. You end up
| with either ascetic monk life people or asking for
| population reduction measures.
|
| If you're annoyed about low efficiency of ordering food,
| what do you think of vacation traveling, hobbies, any
| sort of vehicles etc. Most efficiency would be to have no
| humans with our superfluous wants and needs. Otherwise
| you're just shaming others for doing things you happen
| not to like, while forgetting all the useless things you
| do. Surely you have done consumist purchases that weren't
| required for your immediate survival or health
| preservation before.
| refurb wrote:
| What's the difference between delivery in the city versus
| the suburbs? Does less distance make it ok?
| spicymapotofu wrote:
| Yes, last mile shipping takes up an inordinate amount of
| energy.
| reactordev wrote:
| When I get some goods delivered in the city, it's via
| bike messenger. When I get goods delivered via suburbs,
| it's via F-150s.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| There are plenty of suburbs where you can also walk to
| places.
| refurb wrote:
| This is a very black and white view of the suburbs.
|
| I would call the entire peninsula from SF to San Jose one
| big suburb.
|
| Hell, everything West of Gough St in SF is pretty suburb-
| like: mostly residential, a few shopping streets and no
| offices.
|
| Despite that there are plenty of areas that are very
| walkable, including public transportation and shopping
| for daily needs.
|
| Not every suburb looks like a cluster of single family
| homes with nothing else within 10 miles.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Plenty of suburbs are walkable. I live in one with three
| grocery stores and a farmers market in walking distance.
| Blackthorn wrote:
| Prices in the suburbs aren't any better.
| grishka wrote:
| _American_ tech folks. In my part of the world, you either
| have good access to civilization, or your own land. Having
| both at the same time (buying land close enough to a major
| city) is prohibitively expensive.
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| I like the "concrete suburbs" we have here in Finland. I
| get why people born here don't have the highest opinion of
| them, but something about seeing identical 8-story high
| unadorned buildings for several blocks in a row, separated
| by little patches of park and forest sets me at ease. It
| feels like even if I were to lose my job I would still be
| able to pay rent here. Maybe it comes from growing up in an
| American city and seeing just how brutal the rent race can
| get firsthand.
| yterdy wrote:
| Suburbs aren't defined by having personal space. That can
| be achieved in cities and small towns with in-fill
| development of high square-footage apartments, n-plexes,
| and townhouses, or collective workspaces. The suburbs that
| people complain about are car-centric and are generally
| underfunded in the long-term, putting significant burdens
| on municipal and state finances for things like
| infrastructure maintenance (roads, sewers, etc.). Every
| suburban garage/city parking space pair is a half-dozen
| kids without up-to-date science textbooks and equipment.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Plenty of car centric suburbs do fine with the budget
| too. You got suburbs in california where homes are $2m.
| They aren't hurting for road budget. High school class
| offerings in such a district might look downright
| collegiate from the additional funding the parents raise
| for the local school.
| yterdy wrote:
| There are several contentious aspects to this
| characterization:
|
| 1) California is a noted outlier. The tax base/road
| budget ratio does not scale well to the rest of the
| country.
|
| 2) The wealth of affluent suburbs is driven by the cities
| they surround. The cities generate enough wealth to
| nominally support the market rate labor that keep them
| running AND the professional/managerial class that cut
| and run.
|
| 3) The top quintile or two of earners are likelier to
| live in newer developments, where the cost of maintenance
| has not built up yet. As regions become older and less
| desirable, the affluent leave and are replaced by the
| less-so, just as replacement costs come due. This model
| is a burden on the state and national levels because it's
| so prevalent.
|
| If, instead, the model were to have most people living
| were their wealth was generated - and therefore have
| amenities scale to means more closely - you would have
| fewer extremely wealthy individuals and families but a
| more sustainable and equitable society. I know this is
| anathema to many, who value getting ahead over getting
| together.
| waveBidder wrote:
| could we not make every post about housing please?
| EliRivers wrote:
| On that thread, his garage is larger than the entire space I
| rented for living in when I was his age.
|
| But the point I'm going on to make isn't just about how
| stupid the cost of housing is; it's that the high cost of
| housing comes with extra costs that we might not even see.
|
| How many people would be doing all sorts of neat things, some
| of which would genuinely bloom into real advances and ideas
| and genuine new wealth (by which I don't just mean an income;
| I mean the creation of wealth) if only they could afford some
| goddamn space in which to do it, without having to move so
| far from the existing life they have that pays the bills and
| keeps them alive and sane (by which I mean to suggest that
| not everyone has the luxury of moving to where there is
| cheaper space, if their job and support networks won't move
| too).
| vasco wrote:
| > How many people would be doing all sorts of neat things,
|
| Not many, same distribution would apply to that population.
| Most would scroll tiktok in a larger house.
| thalassophobia wrote:
| Yes, but more creative people would be making something
| new, even if most would use it for nothing. No matter the
| amount of additional innovators, the total would still be
| bigger than it is now.
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| Do you imply creative people are a special breed who are
| immune to attention engineering?
| a_humean wrote:
| They are just saying that if you assume this following:
|
| * There is a rough fixed % of people that are capable of
| doing interesting things and maybe useful things
|
| * There are minimum levels of resources, time, and
| comfort that enables you to do interesting things
|
| * The current population that enjoys those resources
| isn't actually that different from the population at
| large in terms of that %
|
| Assuming all of that, if you increased the welfare of the
| entire population to that minimum level (would be nice to
| do this anyway) then the absolute number of people doing
| interesting and maybe useful things would increase. I
| would say that most of human history and esp the past few
| hundred years has probably proven that to be true.
|
| It is pretty clear from the photos that this young man is
| very fortunate to have well off and supportive parents.
| Very few working age adults in full time employment could
| afford the things shown in those photos let alone someone
| still in education.
| xw3098 wrote:
| You should read this shorty story:
|
| https://www.abelard.org/asimov.php
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| Excellent choice.
|
| Asimov in the 1950's was quite a visionary. I always
| liked this.
|
| But I never heard him referred to as "shorty" before ;)
|
| Don't want to be a spoiler but in his visions for an
| increasingly advanced technological future once the 21st
| century would arrive, here the dystopian elements that
| had unfortunately accrued had to be fed to an
| increasingly conformist society as a utopia instead. No
| surprise considering the attitude during the Cold War.
| While the outliers having the true creative potential
| were subjected to an artificially dystopian environment
| by comparison, from which only the most-ambitious few
| would have to break out of on their own accord, against
| all odds, motivated only by their own committment, to
| take their rightful place as professionals.
|
| Didn't have to wait until the 65th century to make
| significant progress in this direction.
|
| >It is pretty clear from the photos that this young man
| is very fortunate to have well off and supportive
| parents.
|
| Good observation, and maybe that's about all that's going
| to be having such an early start for some time to come
| now. But we don't need photos to be well aware he is
| vastly outnumbered by tons of more fortunate youngsters
| who have accomplished absolutely nothing at that age, if
| not perpetrated destructive efforts instead. Photos of
| their "accomplishments" outnumber this type of posting a
| million to one.
| FooBarBizBazz wrote:
| Excellent phrase, "attention engineering".
|
| Related, somebody referred recently to the device that
| plays YouTube as the "depression box", because that's
| what it creates in short order: "I am incapable of
| anything but scrolling". Yup: "Depression box."
| RetroTechie wrote:
| On a more practical note: people lifted out of poverty
| that become innovators, are (more) likely to do so in a
| frugal manner. Because make do with limited resources was
| spoonfed from early age.
|
| Read: they could make for some very cost-effective
| innovation.
|
| Lifting other people out of poverty that _don 't_ become
| innovators, would be 'bycatch' from that p.o.v. But still
| a worthwhile goal.
| Gud wrote:
| Most would be, but that 0.01% are the ones pushing
| humanity forward. Let's figure out how to give them the
| resources.
|
| And how do you know most/many people aren't spending
| their times scrolling tiktok because they don't have the
| resources to do something more worthwhile?
| vasco wrote:
| > And how do you know most/many people aren't spending
| their times scrolling tiktok because they don't have the
| resources to do something more worthwhile?
|
| Because if that was it, most rich people, rich kids would
| be all doing crazy science experiments and advancing
| knowledge. But turns out they don't.
| Gud wrote:
| It's also plausible todays rich kids are descendants of
| people who have optimized their lives for making money. I
| doubt such parents make the best role models for aspiring
| scientists.
|
| It's possible that a society that has a more prosperous
| general population will produce more successful
| scientists.
| dahart wrote:
| You have a source for that claim? Patents are absolutely
| dominated by people with PhDs, which is highly correlated
| with family income.
|
| https://www.hamiltonproject.org/publication/economic-
| fact/el...
| ben_w wrote:
| You've just put me in mind of an different quote about
| impoverished geniuses:
|
| """I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and
| convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty
| that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton
| fields and sweatshops.""" - Stephen Jay Gould, The Panda's
| Thumb: More Reflections in Natural History, 1980
|
| World population has increased 60% since then, while
| extreme poverty decreased 66% in absolute (not relative)
| terms.
|
| So, what I think would happen with more space, is that we
| would find the next limit, while mistaking the growth that
| improved conditions lead to as the natural state of
| affairs.
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| If you want to compromise on neither location nor space,
| your only real option is to build upwards. Tall residential
| skyscrapers are the only way.
|
| Personally I'm fine with that, but I get why people might
| have an aesthetic issue with it. They're of course allowed
| to compromise on one of the other 2 points to get a better
| looking neighborhood if they want.
| mitthrowaway2 wrote:
| I'd love to put a CNC mill there, but my apartment
| building doesn't let me use my parking space for anything
| except a car, unfortunately. I think that is quite
| common. :(
| saidinesh5 wrote:
| > if only they could afford some goddamn space in which to
| do it...
|
| It doesn't even have to be own space... just places like
| repair shops that let you hang around, maker/hacker spaces
| would go a long way.
|
| I learned / had so much fun just hanging out at
| "Radio"(/TV/Tape recorder) Repair shops when I was a kid.
| Of course most of things i built back there were silly
| things like lights for my bicycle, longer earphone wires
| etc... But it is a valuable experience for me.
| supportengineer wrote:
| That used to be in high schools and it was called "shop
| class".
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| Back in the early 1970's at the university I used to hang
| out in the rapidly developing IC fab shop with a fellow
| student who was an EE major. It was a unique time when
| individual innovation was at its highest point, and
| crushing financial pressure nationwide was only beginning
| to force the downward trend since then.
|
| This was pretty interesting to me as a chemist, and there
| were even more parallels once I went to work for a company
| specializing in emerging chemicals, where unending
| experimentation and innovation was essential to bring
| yields up to tolerable levels from starting points which
| were barely feasible. Similar to emerging semiconductor
| processes.
|
| With all the effort Zeloof has put in, apparently single-
| handedly for the most part, in his garage he does have what
| looks like a more advanced facility now than they had then.
| With the ability to make repairs and do maintenance on the
| comercially available equipment of the time, to a degree
| and with determination that the leading professors did not
| even usually possess.
|
| This is the kind of person that needs to be protected from
| potential disasters that could derail his continuous
| progress, especially with such an early head-start.
|
| Very much of an outlier, but there are uncountable others
| who have always had to wait for the least bit of
| opportunity which never arose in any realistic way.
| SubiculumCode wrote:
| Remote work for the win. The older I get, the less I care
| about having a large variety of places to eat and places to
| go (i.e. city living) and the more I wish for some basic
| space to do the things I want to do. Be it a shop/shed/or
| generous garage (without a car in it I'm fine with my car
| suffering from California sunshine).
| rolph wrote:
| some people live a very industrial lifestyle, in a studio
| garage, with a couch and kitchen in the corner.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| Going by the photos on that article, the garage is bigger
| than the 500sqft ex-council flat I rent with my girlfriend,
| for the equivalent of $2k/month, in London.
| tjrgergw wrote:
| Oh man such a funny joke. It's funny because it's true.
|
| That said, as a European the meme of "they started in their
| garage" always sounded so American. Maybe that's what Europe
| is lacking in terms of entrepreneurship - garages.
| toast0 wrote:
| Yes, but also no. The US has a basic fluidity of business.
| You can build things at home (in your garage, if you have
| one) and try to sell them and establish a formal business
| later, if the business justifies the process. For a one
| person business, there's not really a lot of requirements
| to formalize a sole proprietor business either: often a
| local business license (which is mostly guaranteed issue
| and just a tax collection point), a 'doing business as'
| filing if not using the person's name, and obtaining a tax
| id if needed (the IRS will issue one online in minutes, as
| I understand it), hiring people comes with more
| requirements.
|
| Being able to start small and informally allows many more
| businesses to start.
| dukeyukey wrote:
| Worth pointing out the same is true in other countries -
| in the UK, a sole trader business doesn't need to notify
| the government they exist at all until tax return time.
| devmor wrote:
| Makerspaces are a godsend. I have 24/7 access to one for only
| $75/mo.
|
| Not only do I host my own machinery there, but I have access
| to others' and communal appliances _and_ training on how to
| use them (as long as schedules line up).
| iancmceachern wrote:
| In California you could totally build an advanced New piece
| of technology like a new IC machine or process in way less
| time than you could build a simple permitted barn.
| hoc wrote:
| The main issue I have with all that is that one could have
| had/home-built most of that in the 80s already (except for the
| resins).
|
| So in a way this all is more about online orders as well as
| global access and visibility than about the actual tech.
|
| Wasted decades in a way. Guess we needed to build the interwebs
| first.
| thfuran wrote:
| What would you have used in the 80s to make molds?
| hoc wrote:
| I still see that part as the most complicated and work-
| intensive in a small/home setting. I've been looking at
| ways, effort and prices for several years now and I'm still
| split between resin plus injection or just resin prints.
| And I am still end up with outsourcing as the result. But
| I'd really like to own that process... frustrating.
|
| If anyone has a really feasible/well working solution for
| enclosures etc. please post them :)
|
| That said, while I excluded the molding part explicitly,
| since I thought about CNC milling, pick /place and other
| computer-cobtrolled multi-axis applications, I think one
| could have used CNC and/or some kind of "sand" baking
| (negative) appoach. Not sure what kind of hard wood
| solutions might also have worked as some kind of medium for
| subtractive designing the negative for a small production
| run.
|
| Still not something I would see as easily implementable.
| But I also have no lazy solution with nice results today.
| E.g. for implementing display windows some kind of
| professionally color-coated clear case seems the way to go
| to get to something that ressembles current standards
| (always the main problem, anyway). Hard to do that with
| limited space and without a professional absorber solution.
| xyzzy123 wrote:
| > he is etching wafers on his desktop CNC
|
| Wait do you mean etching wafers, or milling PCBs? One of those
| things you listed is not like the others.
| fragmede wrote:
| Given the linked article is about a 22 year old making a
| 1,500 transistor IC, _etching wafers_ for a 40 year old with
| a FAANG salary doesn 't seem that far fetched!
|
| It'd have to be a really clean garage tho
| georgeburdell wrote:
| I think the CNC part is what's interesting. A wet etch, or
| even a plasma etcher, is conceivable in a garage and are
| the traditional tools of the trade.
| stephen_g wrote:
| I assumed that they must have meant milling PCBs, because the
| only kind of "cnc-ish" way of manipulating things on wafers I
| can think of would be atomic manipulation with a scanning
| tunnelling microscope, which really doesn't seem likely!
| AussieWog93 wrote:
| May I ask how you do this, specifically? What machine do you
| use for injection molding, and how do you make the moulds?
|
| Very interested in doing this myself.
|
| (Also interested in specific recommendations for a desktop pick
| n place if anyone has some)
| 15155 wrote:
| https://www.smallsmt.biz/products/
|
| or any similar Shenzhen special. Buy bigger over smaller.
|
| Buy, don't build. There will be a handful of recommendations
| for the Opulo Lumen/OpenPNP: avoid them. Avoid everything but
| ballscrew designs: you will spend an annoying amount of time
| trying to calibrate a belt-driven design and calibration will
| never stick.
|
| Please, do not make the mistake I did: get something with CL
| feeders, make this investment. Drag feeders are not good -
| they are slow and the stylus will violently shake parts out
| of reels (or you'll spend time calibrating it to try and
| avoid this issue - don't waste the time.) Get something that
| can do 0201, even if you don't use it.
|
| Ideally, get something that uses a separate, commodity host
| machine.
| simultsop wrote:
| I thought the entire plan of independence is building
| yourself and not buying at all.
| 15155 wrote:
| Independence is having the knowledge, skills, equipment
| to do it yourself _if you had to_ - not doing something
| _just because_.
|
| I didn't build my vapor phase reflow oven, either.
|
| I'm trying to solve my own problems, not craft a basic
| piece of equipment for bragging rights; I just don't have
| the kind of free time to have things not work perfectly.
| toast0 wrote:
| That works, maybe, if you're a giant of indusrtry...
| Hyundai doesn't have to buy ram for its cars, it can
| build it.
|
| But if you're small, you can't build most of what you
| need, and you should not build what you can buy that's
| better than whaf you can build, and you may as well buy
| things that you can build as good unless the cost to
| build is much less.
|
| Sometimes it's fun to build things instead of buying
| them, and that'a ok. But if your goal is to do X, you're
| better off spending time on X than spending time building
| tools you could have bought. (Unless building the tools
| builds requisite knowledge)
| rfrey wrote:
| There is no bright line on the DIY spectrum between that
| injection molder and making your own charcoal to refine
| iron.
|
| I love building machines - enough so that I never build
| anything _with_ them. Maybe someday I will, but by then
| 15155 will have built hundreds of things.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| I built a buster beagle. YouTube has a bunch of great guides
| from him plus what to buy.
|
| Mold making is a difficult science of itself. I can't point
| you in a general direction beyond what worked for me. I
| started with OpenSCAD then moved to FreeCAD then eventually
| ended up with Fusion360. You need to have a vision for what
| you want to make, or else you won't follow through till the
| end with learning. There is some dude from Texas who wrote a
| textbook on the subject that was invaluable for me in
| learning how to design oxygenation and cooling techniques.
| This is hardcore industrial engineering stuff, the kind of
| thing that you don't casually do.if you're trying to learn
| and do this yourself you need to not be afraid of doing some
| applied physics.
|
| There was a lot of crying and pain and trial and error for me
| to teach myself. If you know what you want I would instead go
| on fiverr or its equivalent of the day and hire yourself an
| actual mold designer and save yourself 90% of the pain and
| heartache that I went through. Mold designers are weirdly
| cheap for the insane amount of expertise they offer
|
| Printing the mold is another heartache of itself. I used
| anycubic photon with a flex plate and Sriraya resin. That was
| a journey all by itself - I originally started with insanely
| expensive Formlabs stuff before getting to the Anycubic
| solution. Again it took a lot of crying and trial and error
| to get it right. But it costs a mere fraction of what it
| costs to do it the normal way at least
| georgeburdell wrote:
| I would be interested to know more about that "etching wafers
| on his desktop CNC"
| dvh wrote:
| How do you get fully assembled PCBs at JLCPCB for $5. I just
| ordered one and it was $4.10 for bare PCB, assembly would cost
| additional $8 so minimum for assembled pcb is $12.
| _Microft wrote:
| They are waiving the assembly setup fee at the moment.
|
| https://jlcpcb.com/blog/4-Free-Assembly-for-Your-PCB
|
| The GP commenter also wrote about a price "per unit":
|
| > get some reasonably complex fully assembled prototype
| boards shipped to me in a week or two for $5-20 USD _per
| unit_.
| rbongers wrote:
| I am surprised semiconductor engineers called it impossible. A
| cutting edge chip, sure, but a few thousand transistors?
| ta8903 wrote:
| Impossible for a teenager. This isn't like your everyday "kid
| makes a software startup" stories. He had to source all the
| machines, go through all the obscure documentation, understand
| how to test his yield, etc. He built his own photolithography
| machine ffs. I can't imagine the dedication required to go
| through this and believe in yourself every step of the way.
| was_a_dev wrote:
| I can't imagine the funding required either
| mhh__ wrote:
| Helps to have some money too. I could just about afford to
| get some PCBs made for some RF work but ain't no way I was
| getting mum and dad to buy me my own electron microscope (or
| move house to have space)
| dooglius wrote:
| More recently: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34907885
| chasil wrote:
| I hope he doesn't have to work these hours. That would be awful,
| even if you loved it.
|
| The risk of burnout would be very high, and not reasonable for
| such a profoundly knowledgeable resource.
|
| "We all take two years to develop one generation, how come you
| guys can do it in one or one-and-a-half year?" And they asked if
| some of your customer transfer technology to you or what not? And
| I told him, "No," I told him that, "That's not true." I think he
| probably implied we steal technology from customer, the way he
| talk.
|
| And I say, "I'll tell you why." I said that, "When we develop one
| node, basically you have some learning cycles. First, you do some
| simulation. And you have some idea, then you run wafers to prove
| that. So, you run a group of wafers according to simulation and
| you have some splits. The wafer runs through the fab, they come
| out and you measure them, you analyze them, and you try to
| improve and you run this again. This again, you run. So, this is
| learning cycle." At that time, "It takes about six learning
| cycle, roughly, to complete one generation." Of course, you had
| some short loops and not just one. I said that, "My R&D wafer in
| the fab run much faster than yours, because my R&D engineer works
| three shifts and you only work one shift. So, your R&D wafer move
| eight hours a day, my work/move 24-hours a day. So, my wafers go
| three times faster, even if you are twice smarter than me, I
| still beat you up." <laughter>
|
| https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/10279267...
| Condition1952 wrote:
| "Find something you love and you won't work any day in your
| life".
| hoc wrote:
| But HE still could buy from ASML...
|
| 40 years ago, one only had radios to disect and fat circuit
| boards to etch. Access to docs was really bad. And people had to
| be pros at 22 to overcome these home/garage limitations.
|
| So. Progress.
| ykl wrote:
| If you are wondering what Sam Zeloof is up to these days: he
| founded Atomic Semi [1] with Jim Keller (yes, _that_ Jim Keller).
|
| [1] https://atomicsemi.com/
| sadhorse wrote:
| Quite hard to grasp what they are really trying to achieve
| there. They are building what kind of tools, and for whom?
| ip26 wrote:
| Some past discussion suggested there was an opportunity for
| very low volume production at much lower cost because the
| method doesn't use masks.
| xw3098 wrote:
| There's no way it's lower cost. However what it could be is
| guaranteed line capacity and delivery dates. And if you're
| doing small orders from a large foundry you don't get that.
| Those things have value too and someone might be willing to
| pay a bit extra to get them.
|
| My main issue is semiconductor lines are fragile beasts
| that need constant tinkering. So if the system requires
| full time staff to keep running, that's going to be really
| expensive.
| ip26 wrote:
| If a mask set is 50 million and you only need ten chips,
| these guys would only need to come in under 5 million per
| chip to win on cost.
| 15155 wrote:
| If you only need 10 chips, you may just be able to use 50
| or even 500 FPGAs.
|
| 500 VU19P will cost less than 5 million.
| vasco wrote:
| Not if you want to put it somewhere small like a
| satellite or bunch of other things.
| xw3098 wrote:
| https://roboticsandautomationnews.com/2020/06/09/xilinx-
| laun...
|
| Xilinx launches 'industry's first' 20 nanometer space-
| grade FPGA chip
| rwmj wrote:
| There's a large number of applications which cannot be
| done in an FPGA, for instance any complex GHz-clocked
| digital circuit, or many analog circuits.
| xw3098 wrote:
| We don't know what node they're targeting so this is all
| speculation but if it's anything below say 22nm then
| that's finFET, and there's nothing low cost about finFET
| at prototype volumes.
|
| If it's not finFET then a non production mask set is much
| less than $50 million in 2023.
|
| Also, keep in mind maskless lithography has been used
| commercially for roughly ten years now. And it's been in
| Universities for significantly longer.
| shrubble wrote:
| My take was that a low and slow approach that did not involve
| the traditional dangerous chemicals was being developed.
| Currently TSMC etc processes require hydrofluoric acid and
| other things that can kill you.
| mikewarot wrote:
| You can get Hydrofluoric acid at the grocery store... it's
| used in "Wink" stain remover. It's strong enough to get the
| job done, but dilute enough to be... well, in the grocery
| store.
|
| The stuff that you don't want to mess with is Silane, which
| Sam describes as "a toxic and explosive gas".[1]
|
| [1] http://sam.zeloof.xyz/second-ic/
| dogma1138 wrote:
| Semi is the next big thing in distributed manufacturing you
| already have companies that offer what is essentially ride
| sharing for semiconductors they manufacture single IC/SoC
| with multiple blocks on them and you essentially pay for a %
| of the floor plan which can operate independently from the
| rest.
|
| So whilst not quite garage ready we're probably 2-5 years of
| you being able to order completely custom silicon form the
| likes of PCBway and have it shipped in the matter of days
| rather than months.
| xw3098 wrote:
| For very basic cmos nodes 24 turn is possible. But for most
| advanced node the lead time is months because that's the
| minimum manufacturing time.
|
| https://www.seattletimes.com/business/technology/three-
| month...
| snitty wrote:
| They're being very cagy, but it's quite likely they're
| working on "fast" maskless technology. Basically going from
| FPGA to chip in low enough volumes that maskless makes sense.
| It'd be a small, but lucrative, niche if they can get a good
| system at a decent node size.
| csense wrote:
| Think back to the 2021-2022 pandemic-triggered supply chain
| chaos, when the media widely reported that car companies, for
| example, were all having very painful experiences with
| parking lots full of $50k trucks they couldn't sell due to a
| lack of $5 chips.
|
| At the time I saw some of Sam's videos (I think I originally
| found them here on HN), and I had a big question: If a
| hobbyist can build 1970's era chips for ~$10k in his garage,
| and Intel can build 2020's era chips for ~$10B in state-of-
| the-art factories, why doesn't someone start a startup
| building 1990's era chips in a ~$10M facility?
|
| I'd assume Atomic Semi is that startup :)
| saturn8601 wrote:
| Looking at their careers page the typical salary is $100,000 -
| $170,000 for SF. Seems a little low for SF no? Is this an
| indication that they are not well funded or going to have
| issues finding top tier people?
| xw3098 wrote:
| Process development is closer to chemical engineering and
| that's not bad when compared with their salary.
| thebigman433 wrote:
| Its low if theyre paying 100k for people with a couple years
| of experience, but for entry level hardware jobs, 100k is
| about right.
|
| Ive been looking for almost 5 months for an entry level
| hardware job (preferably in SF, but willing to relocate
| anywhere), and 100k is about what Im looking for based on
| what Ive seen.
|
| Some go as low as 85, and some start at 120, but 100k is
| pretty standard.
|
| The salaries are not what they were in 2021
| godelski wrote:
| For anyone else interested in him, Sam has a Youtube channel,
| but hasn't posted in awhile. He started this stuff as a
| teenager with a garage that I think many of us would envy now,
| let alone as a teenager. I've seen him on HN once or twice too.
| There's a whole world of these home built processors channels
| and they're pretty impressive. I know some others are posted in
| other threads, but this isn't my niche so I'll leave it to
| them.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/@SamZeloof
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _22-year-old builds chips in his parents' garage_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36690206 - July 2023 (3
| comments)
|
| _22-year-old builds chips in his parents' garage_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30043719 - Jan 2022 (335
| comments)
| blobbers wrote:
| I mean this is a great story, and I'm happy for this guy, but
| isn't this a super dirty process? Is he going to have cancer in 8
| years but will have built a chip from 1971? Seems like a bad
| trade-off.
| olyjohn wrote:
| Isn't there PPE you can wear? How do they protect you in a real
| factory? There are gloves, suits and respirators, and it's all
| pretty cheap. Proper ventilation, that stuff isnt all that
| expensive.
| helsinkiandrew wrote:
| Assuming you have decent ventilation and even basic PPE is this
| any worse than an average auto or paint shop though?
|
| Or even firefighting station!:
| https://apnews.com/article/firefighters-cancer-pfas-turnout-...
| kken wrote:
| He wasn't the first one
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_znRopGtbE
|
| Also, very well documenated more recent attempt:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx1TenvQXTg
| mikewarot wrote:
| I've been following home-made semiconductors since Jeri Ellsworth
| made her own NMOS FETs in 2010.[1] When Sam managed to make his
| own ICs, I was happy for him, and for the hobby. Now he seems to
| be on the verge of democratizing access to semiconductor
| production in very low volumes. I've got my own project to try
| out once I can get my hands on it.[2] Who knows, petaflop chips
| made in the garage could be right around the corner, in less than
| 2 decades!
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_znRopGtbE
|
| [2] https://bitgrid.blogspot.com/
| RetroTechie wrote:
| About [2], BitGrid:
|
| If I read correctly, that concept _maps_ really well to LUTs as
| used in FPGAs (but note it 's not the same!).
|
| Its author/inventor Mike Warot has the simple but useful idea
| of making the configuration space of such a device a simple
| memory array (like RAM or EEPROM cells). Write some bits to a
| memory location -> cell [x,y] in the device's grid is
| configured.
|
| This would make it trivial to control/interface such a 'compute
| grid' to traditional cpus. To a cpu it would just look like
| regular RAM.
|
| Anyone know if there's work towards applying that idea to
| FPGAs? It would basically evaporate the problem of [closed
| source FPGA vendor toolchains].
|
| Obviously, bitstreams produced by FPGA vendor tools will do a
| _somewhat_ similar thing. But what /how exactly is opaque. Not
| to mention encrypted bitstreams, read-protection & what have
| you. Hence require re-engineering effort for open source tool
| support.
|
| Turning this into a dead simple 1:1 mapping would be a huge
| step forward.
| xw3098 wrote:
| You can have this now https://efabless.com/
| mikewarot wrote:
| I can't... you might be able to afford $10k, but right now, I
| had to think hard before spending $3 last night.
|
| I hope to learn enough Verilog/VHDL/RTL to take advantage of
| the Free Shuttle program they have[1] eventually.
|
| Currently, I'm wondering how to go from expressions to code I
| can load into a bitgrid. The thought of parsing code,
| building an AST, converting that to an acyclic directed graph
| of binary expressions, to actual bits to load the grid
| with.... overwhelms me, and has me putting it off. 8(
|
| I do have a working simulator, written in Pascal[2], that can
| run fairly quickly for toy problems on my desktop PC. So,
| there's been some progress.
|
| I strongly suspect I _can_ get there, but need an
| accountability buddy to push me along. I used to be a self
| starter, but I stayed in an IT Admin job too long that
| crushed it out of me.
|
| [1] https://efabless.com/open_shuttle_program
|
| [2] https://github.com/mikewarot/Bitgrid
| xw3098 wrote:
| You might try starting here then. It's a good community as
| well
|
| https://www.tinytapeout.com/
|
| You're not required to buy the tile to take the lessons
| mikewarot wrote:
| That looks awesome... thanks!
| tsss wrote:
| If my parents had bought me a $30k laser cutter I would be too.
| But I can't even afford the garage.
|
| If you want to worship a DIY-god then look up Jerry Ellsworth.
| She's the real deal, unlike this guy, and makes chips with her
| own dumpster-dived repaired machinery, not with contacts to the
| local University's million dollar research lab.
| elteto wrote:
| What a negative and off-putting comment. You are dunking on the
| work of a teenager putting in time and effort to do something
| incredible by any measure. You need to take a deep, hard look
| inside of you, what's spilling out is not nice. Why do we have
| to pick between one or the other? I celebrate the work of both
| of them.
|
| And with your attitude, no, most likely you wouldn't have built
| anything with a $30k laser cutter.
| 93po wrote:
| He makes a point but it's better described as "it's awesome
| that this young man has had the drive and curiosity to do so
| well with the abilities and resources he's been gifted"
| rfrey wrote:
| I suspect that if you had access to a $30k laser cutter you'd
| be saying you could be awesome too, if you only had a $250k
| metal printer.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| The article mentions she was an inspiration for the 22 year old
| and that she says of him he has taken her work to the next
| level.
|
| I'm curious, what work were you doing that was stymied by your
| parents lack of funding?
| vitiral wrote:
| Sam was one of my main inspirations in starting
| http://civboot.org. Awesome to see he's managed to make his own
| chip now!
| mendigou wrote:
| As someone with 0 idea about semiconductors development: How does
| making your own chip compare to using FPGAs when you need low
| quantities? What things can you do with your own IC that you
| cannot do with FPGAs?
| cakeAndEatIt wrote:
| It's more of a principle achievement, like, "hey Intel, come
| cause a shooting spree at my local grocery store while I'm
| there, because, anybody who did similar DIY things in the
| automobile-hydrogen space met a similar fate from _that_
| industry! " [1]
|
| 1.
| https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/jun/02/facebook-p...
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