[HN Gopher] Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" ...
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       Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]
        
       Author : LinuxBender
       Score  : 16 points
       Date   : 2023-10-10 21:53 UTC (1 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.youtube.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.youtube.com)
        
       | dexwiz wrote:
       | Sure, its carbon free, but NOx (NO, NO2, N2O etc) are really
       | terrible greeenhouse gases and one of the main causes of smog.
       | Catalytic convertors are there just to address this and try to
       | mitigate the problem since all fuel contains a small amount of
       | nitrogen compounds. Let's hope they don't replace one GHG with
       | another.
        
         | Enginerrrd wrote:
         | I think it's a closed system, fuel cell, no?
        
           | isilofi wrote:
           | Better really hope it is closed. Ammonia is no fun. Imagine
           | the stink and effect of tear gas, plus eating your tissues,
           | plus eating through metals and concrete when splashed. Oh,
           | and if you think "well, i've got some ammonia cleaner
           | somewhere, it isn't too bad". Well, that is the dilute watery
           | kind, anhydrous ammonia is much much worse.
        
       | KiwiJohnno wrote:
       | I'm not buying this at all.
       | 
       | People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this
       | is not actually the problem it is made out to be), can you
       | imagine the hazmat situation from a couple of cars carrying who
       | knows how many KG of Anhydrous Ammonia crashing into each other?
       | I mean, you might make the fuel tanks extremely robust (and
       | heavy) but fuel lines etc will still break. Ammonia in the air at
       | 300 PPM will cause SEVERE injuries to anybody in the area not
       | wearing a respirator.
       | 
       | And how are you supposed to fuel these cars? Have you seen the
       | PPE you have to wear when handling Anhydrous Ammonia?
        
         | 369548684892826 wrote:
         | > People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that
         | this is not actually the problem it is made out to be)
         | 
         | Looking like quite a problem over in Luton
         | 
         | https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073...
        
           | almost_usual wrote:
           | Now imagine when a large earthquake hits a place like San
           | Francisco.
           | 
           | Most of the damage from the 1906 quake was caused by fire.
        
             | sindriava wrote:
             | So what was on fire in 1906? Presumably cars were not
             | nearly as widespread. Has anything relevant changed since
             | then?
        
               | scrlk wrote:
               | > Within three days, over 30 fires, caused by ruptured
               | gas mains, destroyed approximately 25,000 buildings on
               | 490 city blocks. The fires cost an estimated $350 million
               | at the time (equivalent to $8.08 billion in 2021).
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthqua
               | ke#...
        
               | almost_usual wrote:
               | > So what was on fire in 1906?
               | 
               | The entire city, if you're asking what started the fire
               | ruptured gas lines caused quite a few.
               | 
               | > Has anything relevant changed since then?
               | 
               | The city is full of Lithium Ion batteries that can burn
               | uncontrollably when crushed or punctured. These fires
               | cannot be extinguished quickly unless special chemicals
               | are used.
               | 
               | SFFD has 43 engines and 19 ladder trucks for context
               | https://sf-fire.org/about-sffd-operations.
        
               | hondo77 wrote:
               | Lots. Of. Wood.
        
           | sindriava wrote:
           | I fail to see anything related to EVs in that article.
        
         | isilofi wrote:
         | Plus the level of technical protection necessary for refueling.
         | With gasoline, you spill-proof the floor, maybe suck off the
         | fumes, that's it. With ammonia, all connections have to be air-
         | tight. You'll have to vent the tank through a pressure-relief
         | line and then condense the ammonia, because you must not
         | release it into the atmosphere. Ammonia spillage will eat
         | through concrete, many metals and tarmac, so either you get
         | very expensive high-grade stainless steel floors or very
         | expensive ammonia-proof plastic floors. And your ammonia-
         | refueling-station will still stink to high heaven...
        
         | Arrath wrote:
         | Where did they even come up with the idea to use anhydrous
         | ammonia as a fuel? Did some tired engineer suggest it as a jest
         | at the tail end of an exhausting meeting and, to their horror,
         | it was moved forward? This reminds me of rocket scientists
         | trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early
         | days of space exploration.
        
           | scrlk wrote:
           | > This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever
           | nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space
           | exploration.
           | 
           | An engineer at Toyota must be a big fan of John Clark's
           | "Ignition!", or Derek Lowe's "Things I Won't Work With"
           | series.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | butppl wrote:
       | Reminds me of Sony trying to rent seek off license fees for
       | popular storage formats like Memory Stick.
       | 
       | Toyota is pulling a Canonical who wrote their own desktop. Toyota
       | will flop... again, after hydrogen... trying to win it all.
        
       | cyanydeez wrote:
       | Toyota failed in capturing EV by betting on hydrogen fuel.
       | 
       | They still can't admit they missed the boat.
        
       | ClassyJacket wrote:
       | Toyota will do anything except take electric cars seriously.
       | Shame. They were the industry leaders with hybrids.
        
         | johnea wrote:
         | Toyota, along with all other Japanese auto makers, have
         | developed the worlds most long running internal combustion
         | engines.
         | 
         | Now, electric is threatening to completely eliminate their
         | market advantage of high longevity cars.
         | 
         | So, they'll come up with any excuse not to switch away from
         | complex mechanisms. Since this is their primary advantage in
         | the market.
         | 
         | Hybrid, which is still a gas powered vehicle, is even more
         | complex mechanically. Having both an internal combustion AND an
         | electric power train, with a complex mechanical transmission
         | for allowing both to run at once.
         | 
         | So while hybrid cars where even more in the Japanese expertise
         | of long lasting mechanisms, electric vehicles are in the exact
         | opposite direction. Etremmely simple mechanically.
         | 
         | It is sad. Not only did they lead with hybrids, they also led
         | when the US "big 3" were so entrenched and had allowed their
         | products to become crap, because no one really had a choice.
         | Then Datson, Honda and Toyota brought very small, inexpensive,
         | high reliability vehicles to the US, and were massively
         | successful.
         | 
         | It's so ironic that now they want to sell bloated "luxury"
         | vehicles, just likje the US big 3.
         | 
         | They've become the pox they originally succeded by
         | countering...
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | gumby wrote:
       | I thought they solved their "gearhead" problem by ejecting the
       | last CEO, a Toyoda. The new one seems to be wearing the same
       | blinders.
       | 
       | They are doomed if they keep whistling past the graveyard like
       | this.
        
       | holoduke wrote:
       | I expect Toyota to come with a nuclear powered fuel cell car next
       | year. Drive your car for 50 years without taking external
       | charges. Easy to maintain and very safe.
        
         | 000ooo000 wrote:
         | "The design is very human"
        
       | legohead wrote:
       | Toyota is so weird about their EV stance.
       | 
       | What I particularly like about EVs is their low maintenance. You
       | remove many components that are required with ICE. Regenerative
       | braking makes your brake pads last a crazy amount longer. And now
       | with this ammonia engine we are adding even more components to
       | the vehicle? No thanks. Not to even mention the fuel distribution
       | problem.
        
         | isilofi wrote:
         | You like "low maintenance". Car companies don't. A significant
         | part of their business is tied to replacement parts and their
         | chains of brand dealerships and brand workshops. With EVs, that
         | whole gravy train might end, or at least loose a lot.
        
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       (page generated 2023-10-10 23:01 UTC)