[HN Gopher] Apple patents suggest future AirPods could monitor b...
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Apple patents suggest future AirPods could monitor biosignals and
brain activity
Author : sundarurfriend
Score : 96 points
Date : 2023-10-10 19:49 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (applemagazine.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (applemagazine.com)
| rnjailamba wrote:
| https://archive.is/2BHCC
| specialist wrote:
| Should any of Apple's boffins be reading...
|
| I desperately want active breath monitoring. Like measuring
| breaths per minute. Like nudging me when I'm holding my breath.
|
| These features would greatly help me with managing chronic pain.
|
| Also, the "pulmonauts" are doing a bunch of cool new stuff.
| Active breath monitoring would be a boon.
|
| "Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art Hardcover" by James Nestor
| [2020-05-26] https://www.amazon.com/Breath-New-Science-Lost-
| Art/dp/073521...
|
| --
|
| Out of curiosity, I tried using some decibel meter type apps to
| detect my breathing (breath sounds). Just to see if it's even
| possible.
|
| I didn't get very far. I haven't had the gumption to investigate
| further. Use an actual mic and tape recorder, because maybe the
| iPhone is doing active noise cancelation or something. If there's
| actually some signal (sound), maybe there's also a way to get the
| raw data from the iPhone mic.
|
| Asked another way, I'm not smart enough to figure out if an
| iPhone's stock mics are sensitive enough to pick up 10 decibels
| (breath sounds). My google-fu is weak.
| resfirestar wrote:
| There's an iPhone app called Lungy that monitors breathing for
| interactive exercises, but it requires holding the phone just
| right and breathing at the mic. Probably not good enough to
| monitor under less ideal conditions with the existing mic.
| Apple Watch and other smartwatches track breathing rate, but
| the ones I know of only give periodic estimates when conditions
| are right, not really real time monitoring.
| emptybits wrote:
| > I desperately want active breath monitoring. Like measuring
| breaths per minute.
|
| Not sure about the state of Apple Watchen but my Garmin watch
| (a several year old Fenix) monitors breaths per minute,
| history, and has breath exercises. Seems this would be easily
| within reach of Apple so I'm not sure why they're not doing it
| if Garmin is. Unless what Garmin considers accurate or reliable
| isn't up to Apple standards. Shrug.
| grecy wrote:
| > _Should any of Apple 's boffins be reading...
|
| I desperately want active breath monitoring_
|
| I don't think it's a great idea to call people boffins and then
| ask them to do something for you.
| RSMDZ wrote:
| You may be confusing boffin (British slang for expert) with
| buffoon (a ridiculous but amusing person)
| BasilPH wrote:
| I'm not a native speaker, but as far as I know a "boffin" is
| not derogatory, at least in British English. I liken it to
| "nerd" in US English.
|
| From Wikipedia[^0]:
|
| > Boffin is a British slang term for a scientist, engineer,
| or other person engaged in technical or scientific research
| and development. A "boffin" was viewed by some in the regular
| services as odd, quirky or peculiar, though quite bright and
| essential to helping in the war effort through having and
| developing the key ideas leading to transformative military
| capabilities.
|
| [^0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boffin
| 98codes wrote:
| I get breathing rate info through my Apple Watch, seems only to
| be when sleeping though.
| ortusdux wrote:
| I wonder if something like this would be good for REM state
| tracking. I can really feel a difference when my alarm gets me up
| during REM vs normal sleep. I've tried smart watches, fitness
| bands, and even Withing's sleep tracking mat, but nothing has
| nailed the killer feature I want, which is a dynamic morning
| alarm that adjust to my REM cycle. I'd be willing to wear sleep
| earbuds if they had this feature!
| crazygringo wrote:
| Is this even remotely feasible though, technologically?
|
| I briefly tried using the Muse headband, a cheap (~$200) brain
| EEG device that connects to your phone via Bluetooth, and it was
| pretty much a disaster. It had _five_ metal contacts across the
| forehead, but could never keep all five correctly working, so it
| was constantly showing errors in the app about insufficient data.
|
| Given that we still haven't figured out how to even get regular
| consumer metal contact EEG sensors working reliably, I'm
| perplexed at how _earbuds_ could ever pick up brain waves in an
| accurate fashion.
| pedalpete wrote:
| I am also surprised how challenging it often is to use both the
| original muse, and the muse S.
|
| We are making an EEG headband for increasing the efficiency of
| deep sleep, and though we are still improving on our data
| reliability, using the right materials and structure, it can be
| much more reliable than Muse.
|
| Earphone EEG already exists, they don't use "metal contacts",
| and neither do we. There are conductive silicones, and
| conductive fabrics which better conform to the skin and provide
| good signal quality and comfort.
|
| However, they still don't work well with movement. This is the
| challenge I see with in-ear.
|
| A neuroscientist I know just bought a pair of Emotiv MN8
| (https://www.emotiv.com/mn8-eeg-headset-with-contour-app/)
| earbuds, and said they wanted to try it while running. I have
| serious doubts that will work, as all EGG is susceptible to
| movement noise.
|
| But in ear silicone conductive tips while meditating, I think
| that will be fine. LGs I think are out this year, Emotiv
| already are, there are a few others as well.
|
| The other alternative is fNIRS, which is more similar to an ECG
| monitor in your smartwatch. It is measuring bloodflow through
| the brain, but there is a delay between bloodflow and brain
| activity, so it was a non-starter for us as we are responding
| to your brain activity in real-time, but I think for meditation
| or similar uses it would be fine, and maybe even preferred.
| yreg wrote:
| Biofeedback for meditation shouldn't be that difficult. I guess
| their ambition with this idea is around that level.
|
| I have used a single electrode Muse headband so I guess yours
| is more advanced, but I can believe that AirPods would have
| better and more reliable skin connection than the device I have
| used.
| [deleted]
| twarge wrote:
| Magnetic measurements are both physically possible and don't
| have muscle interference. For example
| https://arxiv.org/abs/2001.03534 is a magnetic field sensor
| that measures brain activity and runs off a USB port.
|
| It's probably a couple decades away, but at least it's
| feasible.
| swatcoder wrote:
| For slowly trending electrical signals like you'd use for
| meditation training or sleep detection, and for other
| biosignals like in-ear temperature, yeah, it's mostly just a
| matter of making things fit and have power without compromising
| the core features of the product.
|
| Muse is way more ambitious in what they're trying to do and
| also have way less control over manufacturing detail and
| efficiency. It's a totally different thing.
| swatcoder wrote:
| The comments coming in so far are off track.
|
| This is about enabling pretty low key but useful biofeedback
| things like meditation training and maybe ear temperature for
| health tracking. The signals that would be available to AirPods
| are very limited and already pretty well understood. Apple's
| achievement (as often) would really be in their industrial
| technique for producing accurate, efficient, affordable sensors
| that fit within their exacting product design.
|
| It's not going to read your mind your zap current across your
| brain. :)
| specialist wrote:
| I'm so ready for any and all progress on health monitoring. Use
| cases like early detection and monitoring of strokes, seizures,
| Parkinson's, dementia, and so forth.
|
| Per Rosalind Picard, we're just at the very beginning of
| affective computing.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affective_computing
|
| "Yes please" to each and every single thing Picard and others
| are working on.
|
| https://www.affectiva.com/what/products/
|
| https://imotions.com/products/imotions-lab/modules/fea-facia...
| baggachipz wrote:
| Seizure prediction would get me to purchase and wear an Apple
| Watch and/or Earbuds all the time.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| doesn't really need to do any of that to have negative effects.
| Not only are there obvious privacy issues, the 24/7 health
| monitoring craze of people who are healthy and don't require
| such interventions is just a waste of money and potentially
| worry. Yet another avenue to sell people 'health services' that
| in reality have no measurable impact.
|
| My wife's a physician. She now routinely has to deal with
| healthy young people who come into her clinic with anxiety
| because of spurious smart watch alerts concerning their sleep
| or heart rhythm, despite the fact that they undergo regular
| checkups to begin with and such monitoring isn't indicated.
| swatcoder wrote:
| I don't know, man.
|
| Health isn't a binary thing, but as a spectrum, I can say
| that I'm _healthier_ now than I was 10 years ago because I've
| been able to make data-informed insights into my own
| idiosyncratic body.
|
| Medical research tells you about population patterns and
| doctors treat illness. Neither of those play the same role as
| having lots of personal health data to form and test
| hypotheses over.
|
| Privacy may be a concern, but for now, I'm personally pretty
| comfortable with Apple's commitment to privacy as a
| differentiating factor against their competitors. That won't
| last forever, but it's good for now.
| 2023throwawayy wrote:
| I have been using an Apple Watch to track my health as an
| otherwise healthy person for a while now.
|
| No one has tried to sell me any health services.
|
| I feel far more confident in the security of their Health
| ecosystem than I do any individual app developer.
|
| This is FUD.
| specialist wrote:
| I'm a very unhealthy person. My Apple Watch has been a huge
| boon for tracking my health.
|
| For some stuff, I'd otherwise be completely oblivious.
| Self-reporting is notoriously unreliable. Which I've now
| experienced first hand.
| [deleted]
| tea-coffee wrote:
| Really skeptical of the potential EMG and EEG capabilities, feel
| like they would just be noise-filled approximations, but the
| other potential features of monitoring body temperature and
| hearing seem worthwhile.
| ortusdux wrote:
| I wonder if any standard or experimental smartwatch sensors are
| more accurate when used in the ear canal vs the wrist.
| tengbretson wrote:
| The least they could do is offer to take control of my brain over
| a 3.5 mm jack.
| dcdc123 wrote:
| I don't know what to think of that other than it's sort of cool
| that we can do that with relatively inexpensive consumer
| electronics as a _secondary_ function.
| rsync wrote:
| Eavesdropping on the private thoughts of another is an
| abomination.
|
| This is a red line which must not be crossed.
| behnamoh wrote:
| Trolling on HN is an abomination.
| jonfw wrote:
| patents don't mean something is remotely close to existing. A
| lot of patents are purely speculative, to either fish for
| future licensing revenues or to protect the ability to enter a
| market in the future
| factorialboy wrote:
| It's an Apple related news.
|
| If Google, for example, had announced this, the median response
| would be closer to your take.
| fitzroy wrote:
| When my AirPods actually stay in my ears, I'll worry.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| Thankfully we're nowhere near crossing it.
| blocked-by-cf wrote:
| The davos types don't think "brain transparency" is so
| farfetched.
|
| "You may be surprised to learn this is a future that has
| already arrived."
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfqD5aW0X5U
| izzydata wrote:
| Even the most sophisticated purpose made medical research tools
| can't do this in a way that you are imagining. If somehow Apple
| accomplished mind reading devices in their spare time I'd be so
| amazed that I'd actually not even care how invasive it is. At
| least for awhile.
| mepian wrote:
| No one is going to eavesdrop on your thoughts without drilling
| a hole through your skull.
| [deleted]
| GrinningFool wrote:
| Even then, they'd have to hold their ear right up to the hole
| to have a chance of hearing the thoughts.
| codr7 wrote:
| How can you be so sure?
|
| Maybe not today, but with better sensors and neural networks
| I'd say anything is possible.
|
| That's not what's bothering me most in the long run though.
| Because there's no way in hell they'll be able to resist the
| temptation to manipulate our brains directly if they ever
| develop the capability.
|
| Technology is neither good nor bad, but it enables better and
| worse with every iteration.
| cmiller1 wrote:
| It's tangential to this but the integration of biofeedback with
| headphones reminded me something I've dreamed of having off and
| on for years. I would really love a music player that uses some
| kind of biological sensing data to help inform what it plays.
| When I'm exercising I'd love for my phone to be able to figure
| out my intensity through some metrics (heart rate, respiration,
| skin temperature, accelerometers) and select faster and/or more
| intense music as well as adjust the volume based on that
| information.
| tetris11 wrote:
| Same, as well as serving me better ads that I will be more
| susceptible to in a more euphoric state of mind.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| Congratulations, you have a new billion dollar startup idea
| to sell to Google for it to kill a few years later.
| imnotdang wrote:
| [flagged]
| Fauntleroy wrote:
| It's always a good exercise to keep in mind how fantastic new
| tech will be forced into shitty capitalism-driven forms when
| it actually hits.
| viccuad wrote:
| Let's just build it in open source and out of walled
| gardens then.
| bigfudge wrote:
| In reply to the iamnotdang comment below, which I don't seem
| to be able to comment on directly: There is sarcasm here,
| which is perhaps what you're referring to. But I'd argue here
| it's a form of satire which is also (slightly) informative.
| The reader doesn't have to work very hard to realise the
| argument being made that this is another greasing of the
| slippery slope we're on to Black Mirror style immersive
| surveillance capitalism.
|
| Perhaps we should make that point explicitly: It's a concern
| that US based mega corps will have access to data about
| mental states at population scale, and that would provide
| significant power to them for both good and potential ill.
| jrockway wrote:
| It's a 1 hour old troll account that has already been
| banned.
| supertrope wrote:
| "New Google phone service whispers targeted ads directly into
| users' ears"
|
| https://www.theonion.com/new-google-phone-service-
| whispers-t...
| pulisse wrote:
| They'll charge more to serve you ads when you're in a more
| receptive state of mind, but the ads you're served won't
| necessarily be better.
| RockRobotRock wrote:
| I was feeling a bit down today when I heard a whisper:
| BetterHelp telehealth therapy. Use offer code GOOG10 for 10%
| off your first month
| fragmede wrote:
| Curious, I go the other way - I listen to pump-up music when I
| want to get pumped up, not after. Similarly, I put on sleepy
| music to put me to sleep. Though if my devices could heart my
| intentions, that would be magical.
| dmonitor wrote:
| I've noticed this kind of trend with technology. Algorithms
| don't intuit where you want to go, only where you are. Leads
| to a feedback loop where you just become more stuck in your
| current patterns.
| jrockway wrote:
| I am not sure you need any technology here. You pretty much
| always have the same cycling and running cadence; so pick a
| song that's 180bpm (not sure if that's right for running), and
| there you go. How much effort you exert depends on how long
| your strides are or what gear you're in, but if you're doing a
| big climb or something the beat of the music can remind you to
| keep your cadence at the optimal rate. (That said, do cyclists
| wear headphones? I don't. It's against the law here, and in
| general the sound-based situational awareness seems like
| something you don't want to give up. Make your computer beep at
| you if your cadence is out of range.)
| jodrellblank wrote:
| > " _.That said, do cyclists wear headphones? I don 't. It's
| against the law here, and in general the sound-based
| situational awareness seems like something you don't want to
| give up._"
|
| That's where bone conduction headphones such as Aeropex by
| Aftershokz come in: https://youtu.be/IACve6PlC8o?t=271
| (That's a video link because it's to a guy using them on a
| bike, and saying they don't block situational awareness).
| [deleted]
| cmiller1 wrote:
| I'm certainly not lifting weights at 180hz
| tokamak-teapot wrote:
| Last night while I was choosing something to fall asleep to,
| Spotify suggested Nirvana's Nevermind.
|
| Just getting as advanced as "this human normally puts chilled
| music on at this time of day, which is also the time many
| people go to sleep in this time zone" would be a start.
| ant6n wrote:
| Creative. Spotify usually just plays ads to keep me from
| falling asleep.
| wouldbecouldbe wrote:
| Haha yeah which is why I don't wear them.
|
| Call me superstitious but two electronic earpieces communicating
| through your brain with one another, don't like the idea.
|
| Oh and surprise we can actually scan your brain.
| demondemidi wrote:
| I want an AI DJ to pick the right tunes when I'm running to fit
| my pace, where I am on the run (e.g., approaching a hill, near
| the finish), and my match heartrate. I hate having to do that
| manually. Sometimes you need to zone out for 10 miles, other
| times you need that kick at the right time to avoid the
| wall/bonk.
| dylan604 wrote:
| this sounds so sci-fi for when i used to be a runner "back in
| the day", but i know most game consoles already do this.
| shironandonon_ wrote:
| this will be great so that the volume may be increased should the
| user not be listening to advertising material appropriately.
| inputError wrote:
| [dead]
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