[HN Gopher] The anatomy of a smart bulb
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The anatomy of a smart bulb
Author : mariuz
Score : 46 points
Date : 2023-10-08 06:10 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (cheriches.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (cheriches.com)
| bhouston wrote:
| I much prefer smart switches over smart bulbs. Because smart
| switches always work with you flip them physically whether the
| network is down or not.
|
| Also smart switches ensure that there is no mismatch between
| physical switch state and light bulb state.
|
| Before I moved over to smart switches exclusively I had some
| Philips smart bulbs with wireless switches - it was the most
| unreliable and finicky setup I ever had.
|
| The only smart thing in a light bulb should be it ability to
| change color.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| Other than as an interesting hobby project to see if you can do
| it (which is completely valid, I've absolutely done projects
| that, from a practical perspective don't make sense but I learned
| lot in the process), this doesn't seem worth it. Unless there are
| literally no open source Wifi smart bulbs, even after you fix
| this one, this cheap AliExpress bulb almost definitely has
| terrible heat management that will kill it far faster than an LED
| bulb actually should die (which seems to be a problem among cheap
| LED bulbs more generally and I can't imagine is better in smart
| bulbs).
|
| If anyone has any experience with this though, I'd love to hear
| about it.
| IntelMiner wrote:
| I bought some "Kauf" model light bulbs about a year and a half
| ago in a direct quest to get something "HomeAssistant Only"
|
| The "RGB" color reproduction is...poor and the illumination
| they offer is a bit middling. But the biggest issue I had was
| the things would simply die after a while! I'd get maybe 3-4
| months before they'd start flickering, then eventually stop
| entirely
|
| Thankfully since you can only buy either 1 or 4 packs I had
| plenty of spares, but I have to admit I've since retreated from
| the idea of "smart bulbs" for now
| eande wrote:
| It always irks me when I see these low cost electrolytic
| capacitors. With operation hours they dry out loose capacitance
| and typically are the first components to make the bulb
| worthless.
|
| There are long life, high temp electrolytic cap, but from the
| picture I can tell these ain't the one and due to competition and
| fierce price competition won't allow to add in several more cents
| to make the bulbs last additional 50k/100K/ or more hours. Maybe
| also not good for reoccurring business. What a waste.
| gumby wrote:
| Good point: if you're going to all this effort to reflash the
| devices anyway you might as well upgrade the caps.
| spdustin wrote:
| The Zigbee answer would've been to use Zigbee Group Messaging to
| group the lights together so that all seven bulbs respond to a
| single command, rather than having to send a Zigbee packet seven
| times.
|
| But I do enjoy de-Tuya-ing no-name bulbs. Now that ESPHome has
| merged Beken support, it's even easier. I've been able to un-crap
| dozens of cheap WiFi smart bulbs so satisfying to have them
| running ESPHome.
| redundantly wrote:
| I wish I could get bulbs that are easily repairable. Zigbee bulbs
| I bought ~7 years ago have started failing in a very specific
| way, the smart functionality stops working intermittently then
| entirely, but they work fine as dumb bulbs after that point.
|
| I'd like to see bulbs that can be assembled by hand in order:
| socket, controller, LEDs, enclosure. This way if any one part
| fails I only need to replace that part. Parts that have failed
| can be sent back and recycled.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Does "right to repair" help? Can you in theory replace
| controller boards?
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| >I'd like to see bulbs that can be assembled by hand in order:
| socket, controller, LEDs, enclosure.
|
| I'll bet you dollars that none of those things are failing.
|
| It's very likely capacitors. To make these cost effective, they
| have AC/DC converters and aren't putting a ton of love into
| SMPS buck switching. They're choosing the cheapest components
| pushed to their limits. Or, just plain don't care at all.
|
| The rated hours of a typical electrolytic cap is something like
| 2000 hours at it's rating and at 20oC which these are not. So
| if you need more than that you over-rate it. But that's
| expensive, and someone will look at it and say "You have 12VAC,
| you can buy a 16V cap and that's all".
|
| Without too fine a point on the underlying issue... Stop buying
| future-trash made by people that really don't care what they're
| making.
| sokoloff wrote:
| > "You have 12VAC, you can buy a 16V cap and that's all"
|
| 12VAC has an RMS measure of 12 volts but a peak voltage of
| ~17V. (I'm not saying that no one's done exactly that, but
| when they did, they were operating outside the rating in the
| first 1/120th of a second of operation.)
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| I threw numbers out. But in many applications in many
| circuits with many aluminum electrolytics that would still
| be fine.
|
| It's tantalums that you super-duper do not ever exceed the
| rated voltage of, and double that for reverse polarity.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| A widespread DC socket standard for LEDs would go a long way
| towards this. The fitting could then do the AC to DC conversion
| separately and could house any controller, but the LEDs itself
| would be very simple.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| >A widespread DC socket standard for LEDs would go a long way
| towards this.
|
| I can see California behind a tree rubbing it's hands
| together.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| I'm too European to get that.
|
| Would you not like a DC light socket standard? It's quite
| the waste to have AC to DC happen in every light bulb.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| California government is large, and exceeds past the role
| of government in other states.
|
| They pushed for all new construction to require a GU24
| bulb socket because it would "mean" high efficiency. It
| was a massive failure with practically the only market in
| the world for the GU24 connector in CA. Now, they rolled
| it back so you are still required to use high efficiency
| bulbs but the connector isn't important anymore. No
| concern that of all the GU24 fixtures that will need to
| be replaced and sent to landfill.
|
| The comment is Anthony Adams here in this meme [0] is
| California looking to adopt a new socket because past is
| prologue. https://preview.redd.it/e4t802ztnqb31.png?width
| =1024&auto=we...
|
| GU24 update: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/update-
| california-title-24-fu...
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Converters for GU24 to use E26 (Ikea standard!) are $1
| retail. Doesn't seem like you need to throw them all
| away?
|
| >No concern that of all the GU24 fixtures that will need
| to be replaced and sent to landfill. //
|
| Do you believe that legislatures weren't trying their
| best, it's not easy to make economical decisions when
| powerful profit seekers are trying to undermine you at
| every turn. Maybe they erred, I'm not sure it's as
| obviously wrong as you imagine. Who hasn't backed the
| wrong standard at some point?
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| >Do you believe that legislatures weren't trying their
| best,
|
| That is an interesting defense of ineffective
| bureaucracy.
|
| _" It's OK they stepped into an area they had no idea
| about, made command decisions that limited customer
| choice, because you can just buy some Made in China
| adapters!"_ Well, that's an opinion.
|
| "This very kindness stings with intolerable insult" CL
| Lewis. I encourage you to go read the whole thing.
| https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/526469-of-all-tyrannies-
| a-t...
| lostlogin wrote:
| Poe might be an option. It would also reduce the amount
| of crappy devices taking up WiFi bandwidth.
|
| It would be a pain to retro fit though.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| Eh... not a great fit. POE++ Super Extra is 100W per
| port. Figure a dumb 75W-equivilent is like 10-14W. You
| get maybe 8 bulbs per run assuming everything is exactly
| as rated.
|
| But specifying doesn't work like that. You won't know if
| someone will plug in 24W bulbs. You need to plan sockets
| for the most someone could use.
|
| If you wanted DC retrofit, you would be better of doing
| it at the light switch and just using the same wiring and
| sockets.
| watermelon0 wrote:
| AFAIK lightning solutions using PoE already exist in
| commercial space.
|
| For general use, I'd assume that PoE hardware/software is
| a bit too expensive, but maybe we can have similarly
| priced bulbs/lightstrips than Philips Hue.
| IntelMiner wrote:
| I had some "down lights" in an apartment I lived in in
| Australia that did this
|
| Annoyingly for a single (small) room it had * _three*_
| switches, each controlling two lights. The ones on either
| side of the room were perhaps 8 feet apart, with two more at
| the near end of the room (about another 4 feet from the first
| two)
|
| Replacing them with compatible smart bulbs of _any_ kind due
| to them being DC proved surprisingly difficult in Australia.
| Though I suspect countries with larger markets would fare
| better
| 3guk wrote:
| For anyone interested in more of this sort of stuff - including
| ways to modify some brands so they are not being driven as hard,
| it's always worth to check out Big Clive on YouTube.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/@bigclivedotcom
| Roark66 wrote:
| I'm really disappointed with all the LED lights I tried (except
| one brand that doesn't exist anymore). Led lights were supposed
| to last 10 years at 8h per day. Initially they were expensive,
| but it was possible to get LEDs of good quality. 7 years ago when
| I was building my house I bought 100 gu10 7W 550 lumen cool white
| "halogen style" 240V led lights. In these 7 years I replaced
| around 16. Many of these lights are used 16+ h/day. I'm very
| happy with them. Unfortunately the brand dissappeared (it was a
| reseller brand).
|
| Since then ever single LED I bought failed with a year or two.
| Big outdoor led floodlights 25W,50W and few 100W. Every single
| one fails in a couple of months. They're not even used that much
| as they have PIRs, maybe they are on 20min per day. Then there
| are E17 lights I bought for a small workshop (12 of them). None
| lasted over 6 months (used few hours per week in an unheated
| workshop). I'm not even buying the cheapest LEDs. It's the same
| regardless if I pay for "premium" or the cheapest.
|
| I have so many broken LEDs I started fixing them. I have a hot
| air soldering station and a pcb heating tool. They always fail
| the same way. One of the LEDs is burned. Why? Because they are
| driven too hard that's why. If they were driven with 10% less
| power they would have a chance to last.
| jsight wrote:
| What is the common failure mode and how are you fixing them?
| Roark66 wrote:
| Virtually all of them fail the same way. One(or more) of the
| individual LED diodes fail open. They are usually discolored
| as if they burned. I'm fixing them by replacing the diodes
| that failed (I desoldering them from other lights that
| failed). I always buy cool white Led lights and all of them
| use 1W diodes it seems (at least I think they're 1W, there is
| no writing on them).
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Keep your receipt details and return to seller (if in UK) if
| they don't meet the stated lifetime. AFAIK there are no time
| limits to Consumer Rights Act returns beyond 'expected product
| lifetime'.
| e2le wrote:
| Although good that it's possible to get a free replacement, I
| suspect the broken bulb will still end up in a landfill or
| polluting some place in the world with more micro plastics.
| It's a real shame when manufacturers would rather make a
| worse product and pocket the few cents difference,
| environment be dammed.
| Roark66 wrote:
| This is the same in Poland (the country I moved to), but who
| can find receipts for light bulbs bought 6 months ago... I do
| keep them now (especially for more expensive ones like these
| Led floodlights). In fact that's how I got through so many of
| them. I bought them, a couple failed few months later, I'd
| take them back to the shop, they would just give me new ones
| in exchange. I'd install these, and they would break again in
| few months, rinse and repeat. I got so tired of having to
| swap them up high on a ladder I started fixing them myself
| and regulating the power supply for lower power (they have a
| brick style PSU).
| zkms wrote:
| Have you tried some from Waveform Lighting? I have some of
| their bulbs (none of which has broken yet) and I selected them
| because of the low blue light and zero flicker. (No
| relationship with them beyond being a satisfied customer).
|
| https://www.waveformlighting.com/
| Roark66 wrote:
| I haven't. I should've probably mentioned I'm in Europe. That
| most likely excludes them for me.
|
| I've had a look at their page, they don't have the fittings I
| get (gu10, E27 - probably these are not used in the US) and
| no European resellers as far as I can find (and no 4500K
| option, but that's a minor thing).
| hettygreen wrote:
| I just purchased like $1500 worth of linear LED's from these
| guys for my workshop. I'm really sensitive to LED flicker and
| these were one of the only websites I found that specifically
| talked about flicker and claimed their LED's don't do it.
|
| Does anyone else notice when LED's flicker at 60hz?
|
| I was in a restaurant last week that had some of those LED's
| made to look like old time lights and the flicker in the room
| was terrible. If anyone moved their hand or the menu, you
| could see the strobe effect very easily.
| m3047 wrote:
| Conspiracy! No really, there was a conspiracy to fix the life
| expectancy of tungsten bulbs. Nobody would be doing that here,
| of course. /s
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
| adrian_b wrote:
| Obviously it is possible to design well or to design badly the
| LED bulbs.
|
| Those which fail are likely to fail due to inadequate cooling.
| With good cooling even large currents cannot damage the LEDs.
| As long as the temperature of the LED is limited there is no
| need to drive it less.
|
| I have bought 8 years ago about two dozen LED lamps of 1500
| lumen (equivalent to 100 W incandescent lamps) and of 4000 K
| color temperature (slightly yellowish white, but not yellow
| like those that imitate incandescent lamps), which were made by
| Philips and which have the same size as traditional
| incandescent bulbs.
|
| All of those still work flawlessly, while consuming only a
| little more than half of the power consumed by the compact
| fluorescent lamps replaced by them.
|
| I do not doubt your experience, but it is possible to choose
| better LED lamps.
| Roark66 wrote:
| >Those which fail are likely to fail due to inadequate
| cooling. With good cooling even large currents cannot damage
| the LEDs. As long as the temperature of the LED is limited
| there is no need to drive it less.
|
| This seems like a logical conclusion considering lower power
| extends their life and the diodes that fail are usually
| discolored (as if they overheated). However, I'm not entirely
| sure it is as simple as inadequate cooling. All my high power
| LED floodlights are installed outdoors. I had 3 failures in
| the middle of winter when outside temperatures are way below
| zero (I remember these especially well, because climbing a
| tall ladder in freezing -20C wind is not something you forget
| easily). My theory is that they initially fail short that's
| why they appear burned. Also better cooling definitely
| extends their life, but it is not the only factor. The LED
| floodlights I mentioned were all housed in flat cast aluminum
| casings with find. The pcb is made of aluminium (with a very
| thin white insulating layer and copper traces on top). There
| is thermal paste between the back of the pcb that is raw
| aluminium and the case. I can't imagine a more favourable
| cooling solution. And still these floodlights are amongst the
| worst LED experiences I had. I tried all sellers available
| that didetry to charge >6x the price.
|
| >I do not doubt your experience, but it is possible to choose
| better LED lamps
|
| Perhaps it is location dependent. The lights I had a good
| experience with were purchased in the UK, but I've since
| moved to Poland. I'm happy to order from other countries
| within the EU (I even wanted to get the same LEDs from the UK
| again, but they don't sell them anymore).
|
| The brands I see around here are either noname/picked up from
| thin air, kobi, samsung,philips or sometimes Osram. I have to
| admit I haven't got much experience with Philips or Osram.
| All the others are the same (including Samsung Pro). I
| would've bought more of the Philips/Osram lights, but none of
| my local stores carry them in cool white, ordering one or two
| online seems a waste of the shipping while I'm not ordering
| 20 without checking them out first... (if someone says
| "Philips is great" I'll get a 10 pack) Also I noticed people
| who like warm rather than cool light seem to have a better
| experience overall. Two of the best LEDs I have are warm, and
| they look like the famous Philips Dubai bupbs(I couldn't get
| any cool whites with the right fitting). They have been
| living outside for last 7 years, hooked up to a PIR next to a
| cat's food&water so they are activated a lot. I've replaced
| the PIR sensors, but the lights are still fine. Again, these
| were purchased years ago.
|
| If anyone knows any good brands available in Europe, please
| mention them.
| jerlam wrote:
| > If they were driven with 10% less power they would have a
| chance to last.
|
| You are describing Dubai LEDs, which are driven lower, last
| longer, but are dimmer:
|
| https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-li...
|
| Last mention on HN:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35003411
| Jnr wrote:
| I bought higher CRI LEDs from IKEA about 4 years ago when I
| moved into my apartment, they are all still working. But those
| LEDs are not sold anymore, hopefully the newer ones are as
| decent.
| lostlogin wrote:
| I wonder if the vendors or suppliers know?
| jsight wrote:
| It seems like a lemon market:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
|
| I'm sure they know.
| flutas wrote:
| You can modify the resistors on the PCB manually to run them
| cooler and last longer. It's not ideal but one solution.
| bombela wrote:
| I noticed that virtually all LEDs driver resistors are two
| vastly different values, in parallel. Such that if you snip
| off the correct one, you are left with a slightly lower
| output light, that consumes half the power and last many time
| longer.
|
| It's like a secret cheat code for people in the know. It's
| almost a conspiracy.
|
| Just cut off the highest value resistor with a pair of snips.
| Roark66 wrote:
| This is a really good tip. Although ripping them apart is
| the last thing I'd like to do when I buy a new set of
| lights I might have to start doing that.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| Does anyone remember when lightbulbs were a thin glass bubble and
| a piece of wire? Compare that in a landfill to this thing.
| Something that is effectively gone in 10 years if crushed and
| left outside vs this that many part will look the same in 1000.
|
| I guess I enjoy the extreme hypocritical nature of "smart home"
| things from people that talk about climate change and living
| wages and etc. You're buying future-landfill trash from slaves
| because you think it's neat that your lights are on timers....
|
| On the other hand, to be fair... I have "dumb" LEDs that I like
| (Reveals because I know what color should look like) and
| obviously there is a break-even point of not spending 95% of your
| power in heat when you want it for light. It's really just the
| "smart" parts that I find just so unnecessary.
| berbec wrote:
| I prefer smart light switches to smart bulbs myself. It seems
| like a cleaner, less wasteful way of getting what i really want
| - the ability to turn lights on and off from an app/through
| voice.
|
| Putting all this circuitry into a bulb with a limited lifespan
| seems silly to me, like the old TV/VCR combos. When I used to
| sell televisions we always steered people away from those
| because invariably one would fail before the other, making the
| device far less useful.
| kcb wrote:
| Those light bulbs took like 10x the power for the same amount
| of light and dumped 100ws of heat to light a room in a time you
| might be trying to cool it. I don't think there's any
| reasonable way to argue incandescent light bulbs as the
| environmentally friendly option.
| SV_BubbleTime wrote:
| Depends if you are calculating the costs in the summer or the
| winter.
|
| My point is you are comparing to cheap garbage that took
| components and rare metals from around the world shipped on
| tankers to China where they were produced in harmful
| conditions, then shipped back around the world where they
| work for a year and are thrown in the landfill to sit for
| 1000.
|
| The cost of those lightbulbs is not nearly as easy as the
| efficiency sticker on the box.
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