[HN Gopher] My Brain Doesn't Picture Things
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My Brain Doesn't Picture Things
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 24 points
Date : 2023-10-06 12:41 UTC (10 hours ago)
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| weinzierl wrote:
| _" I have what is called "aphantasia," the absence of voluntary
| imagination of the senses. I know what a top hat is. I can
| describe its main characteristics. I can even draw an above-
| average impression of one on a piece of paper for you. But I
| can't visualize it mentally. What's wrong with me?"_
|
| How can you draw a thing without visualizing it? Do the
| coordinates of the vertices appear in your head or instructions
| about how to move your hand? Or is it like you wake up and
| suddenly you have a finished painting in front of you with no
| idea how it got there?
| aphantasiathr wrote:
| [dead]
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| This is an absolutely correct question to ask. It's also a good
| question to ask people who claim they can visualize things
| well, but can't draw.
|
| I think people vastly, vastly overstate how well they can
| actually visualize something in their mind. Most people can't
| visualize a circle of a solid color and change the color in
| their mind, let alone visualize a face or anything significant.
| htss2013 wrote:
| Humans seem optimized for detailed recognition of visuals,
| not reproduction of them. Makes evolutionary sense because
| you can easily see the utility of detailed recognition, but
| what justifies the additional burden of detailed
| reproduction?
|
| People who can draw detailed reproductions are either
| oddballs with photographic memory, or they've perfected the
| skill of adjusting their drawings as they develop gradient
| descent style using detailed recognition as the judge of
| where to stop.
| drbawb wrote:
| >How can you draw a thing without visualizing it?
|
| Speaking personally: my hand just moves. A top hat is roughly
| an elliptical base with a smaller cylinder affixed to it on-
| center, maybe a colored band or a bow wrapped around the
| bottom. The band is another cylinder w/ less height
| circumscribed into the larger one. The bow is maybe two
| triangles connected w/ a circle. Add some squigglies and
| shading to make the bow look like fabric. All this has to be
| skewed by perspective, which is going to be some lines I lay
| down w/ a straight edge. I like pencil, because I make lots of
| mistakes. I hated art-class as a kid because markers, crayons,
| colored pencils, etc. were torture to me, I had no idea how
| someone could commit to permanence w/ the first stroke.
| (Obviously had no idea what aphantasia was, then, but I do
| remember thinking pretty early on how _weird_ guided meditation
| sessions were. The backs of my eyelids are pretty
| uninteresting.)
|
| >Do the coordinates of the vertices appear in your head or
| instructions about how to move your hand?
|
| I don't see anything except what is on the paper. I probably
| use more guidelines than most, and my (admittedly amateurish)
| art looks very "sketch-y" _because it is._ I use lots of thin
| strokes or draw guidelines and erase ones that don't seem
| right. I'm very bad at "rendering" final scenes, I essentially
| have to just trace my own work very deliberately. (Though I'm
| slowly learning to lean on tracing via layers in digital tools
| to help with that.)
|
| The facts of the "scene" are just present in my mind. My muscle
| memory acts on them. I am usually repulsed by what's on the
| paper and refine it. It's maybe akin to an internal monologue;
| closest thing I can think of is if someone was reading me a
| recipe over the phone: but instead of ingredients it was simple
| shapes "draw this, then that on top of it, but erase this line
| here at the bottom." Though it's not really a voice, exactly,
| unless I choose to vocalize or sub-vocalize it.
|
| I don't really know how to describe it, I don't "see" the
| facts, or "hear" the facts, they're just _there._ If you ask me
| about my car, it's a blue Subaru. I didn't envision their
| emblem, or see the color blue, or the outline of the car, or
| anything like that. I just know it's a Subaru, and it's regal
| blue pearl - 35J. (Ironically I'm fucking terrible at trivia
| games.)
|
| Also - if you ask me to draw with my eyes closed - you're
| probably going to get a bunch of disjoint strokes. It took a
| _long_ time for me to figure out how to effectively use a
| digital tablet. (I 'm still not sure I love it, but digital
| authoring fills too many other gaps for me to give up on it.)
| masswerk wrote:
| I have the condition, as well (that is, I may have a short
| visual flash or broad impression, but I can't sustain this),
| still, part of my work is working as a designer and I'm
| considered proficient at drawing. It really comes down to
| classic poetics and relying on / trusting your gestures,
| while you are drawing. The amazing thing is that you can
| produce a stroke, you couldn't have thought of in a
| controlled way, and you're kind of surprising yourself. (I
| believed for a long time, it would be like this for
| everybody.)
|
| BTW, this may be related or not, but I have learned to detest
| gesture based UIs in apps, and, since this has become the
| prevalent form of control, I've removed about all apps from
| my phone.
| perrygeo wrote:
| > How can you draw a thing without visualizing it?
|
| This is a great question. I have an inability to draw things
| from memory (despite being able to recognize them immediately
| and form strong narrative memories of them). This realization
| is what lead to me to think I have aphantasia.
|
| A few years ago, I decided to draw a face everyday from memory
| (of someone I knew well visually) to see if I could train
| myself to get better. After 6 months of daily practice, my
| faces still looked like cartoons. My technique got better from
| rote memorization, but importantly I never got to the point
| where I could recognize my subject from my own drawing. They
| all just looked like random people poorly drawn. I can
| recognize the mistakes as soon as they're on paper but during
| the initial creation I feel like I'm guessing where the lines
| go based on some verbal/narrative structure ("I know she has
| long hair, how about this..."), then saying "hmm that's not
| right". I have no reference image in my mind to work off of.
|
| But I can immediately pattern match against my drawing to see
| how far off I am, which means the visual information is encoded
| in my brain somewhere. Still no clue on how to voluntarily
| access that memory - it's as if my visual systems only fire
| when photons hit my eyeballs. Which only helps after I've made
| my shitty drawing, not while I'm drawing.
| vinhcognito wrote:
| Anyone with Aphantasia or are curious about it might like this
| fairly recent article that eventually gets into a theory of the
| mechanics of different cases of Aphantasia and what might be
| happening behind the scenes.
|
| Aphantasia: In search of a theory
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mila.12432
|
| I find it incredibly surreal to read current research on how my
| own mind might be working and finding parts of it quite relatable
| and insightful.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| https://archive.ph/ZRIeD
| rogerclark wrote:
| "In my head, the way it happens is..." Okay, sure, man. Whatever
| you say.
|
| Decades of research have proven that people cannot be trusted to
| describe how their own minds work. We are unreliable narrators of
| our own experience even in the best conditions, and having a
| zeitgeisty, quirky trait like aphantasia to wear as a badge will
| obviously skew the results even further.
|
| Personally, I don't believe for a second that there are a
| significant number of sighted, otherwise typical human beings out
| there who have zero ability to visualize anything. Of course,
| people get better at things with practice, so I buy that some
| people might be better at it than others. I couldn't recall
| melodies very well before studying music for several years. But
| if you know what an apple looks like, and you can describe that
| or draw it, even crudely, then you have some inner representation
| of what an apple looks like. Whatever words you use to convey
| your internal experience of recalling or assembling the relevant
| information are inconsequential.
| RoyalHenOil wrote:
| I tend to agree. I think we just vary somewhat in how aware we
| are of our internal processes, with most of those processes
| being unconscious.
|
| For example, I am very adept at art, particularly color and
| shading, yet I struggle to consciously imagine color or
| shading. I can consciously imagine 3-dimensional shapes and
| rotate them, but I struggle with any other visual data.
|
| And yet I demonstrably CAN generate other visual data because I
| can draw and paint things, even things I have never seen
| before.
|
| Clearly my brain is actually doing that work, even if I am just
| not conscious of it, thus I don't ascribe aphantasia to myself.
| My brain is perfectly functional in this area.
| [deleted]
| d-lisp wrote:
| When I decide to see things in my mind, if I don't focus enough
| to keep them still they never cease to become something else than
| they represent. If I imagine a luxurious green field with an
| apple tree, immediately if I don't control the scene mentally to
| conserve it, some apple will fall producing a noise, some mad cow
| will run into the fov, trying to hit the apple with its horn,
| yelling and distracting me or whatever event that seems to happen
| naturally in the weird world that is _my mind_.
|
| Example : I imagine a table > the legs of the table become rubber
| and bend, the table seems to be a live and jumps like if it was
| alive, some marbles fall onto it like raindrops on a bad day of
| autumn, the table falls because of the marbles on the ground ...
|
| Very funny, but also quite frustrating because it really is HARD
| to stop stuff to happen.
| jddj wrote:
| This happens to me only if I'm particularly underslept.
| ManuelKiessling wrote:
| I'm currently not sure if I have aphantasia or not.
|
| I don't remember the number of windows in my house, and I'm
| currently not in or near my house, but no problem -- I simply
| wander through my house in my mind, and count the windows: 9.
|
| So I cannot have aphantasia, right? How can I "visually" count
| the windows in my house without the capability to "see" in my
| mind?
|
| But all those tests? I never really "see" that darn apple, at
| least not in the way that "awake-plus-photons" seeing works for
| me. Not even close. It's more like seeing conceptually, or in
| the abstract.
|
| Plus, I can relate to your comment. Maybe I have a focus
| problem, not an aphantasia problem?
|
| But I can plan, design, and implement really complex software
| systems, so I cannot have a focus problem, right?
| ozmodiar wrote:
| I would describe my mental vision as working the same way as
| you, and have always tested highly in my ability to mentally
| manipulate 3D objects. I don't think this is aphantasia so
| much as a language issue when describing mental processes. I
| am a little surprised that some comments here reference
| people who claim to be able to generate mental images as if
| they see them, that's certainly a different level of
| visualization.
|
| Funny enough my son can't dream. It took him awhile to figure
| out something was different, and he was jealous that other
| people got to experience something 'like VR' when they sleep.
| I tried testing him for aphantasia by asking him to describe
| mental pictures and he seemed not to have it. Personally I
| have very vivid dreams. The brain is an interesting thing,
| and it's funny how hard it is to communicate the internal
| workings.
| PortiaBerries wrote:
| Wow, you don't have very many windows.
| japostoles wrote:
| I'm struggling to figure out if my mind's eye "sees" anything, or
| if I'm just imagining the concept of the item I'm thinking about.
| If I'm comparing this vision to having a dream, say, it's
| certainly not visual.
|
| "...there is a simple and helpful test that can give you a clue
| into whether you may have it: Close your eyes and try to imagine
| an apple, seeing it mentally in your mind's eye. If you can see
| anything (anything at all--even a blurry outline), you do not
| have aphantasia. If you see a void of complete darkness, you
| might have aphantasia."
| (https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/aphantasia-test)
|
| When I imagine an apple, I don't see anything that could be
| considered visual.. I can "see" it, but it's certainly not visual
| as this suggests.
|
| Anyone here seeing an actual rendering with their eyes closed?
| LiquidPhD wrote:
| I've talked extensively to friends about this because I see
| nothing. I can picture nothing. It's just a void.
| Interestingly, it hasn't always been this way for me. I
| remember when I was in elementary and middle school, I could
| take exams and see the page the answer was on in the textbook
| in my mind. I'm not sure when or how I lost it, but it's gone.
| I do sometimes dream in video, though.
|
| For me, most of what happens in my mind is sound. I always
| "hear" music in my head, though my inner monologue doesn't have
| a voice. It's more like I just "know" what I'm thinking. I
| don't hear anything in my head when I read, which allows me to
| read pretty quickly. I'm not saying that I don't subvocalize or
| whatever, but if I do it it isn't producing any sounds in my
| brain.
|
| Some people can apparently picture the scenes they read in
| books. See the beach, see the characters, etc. I have talked
| extensively with friends about this stuff and some of them say
| it's ultra vivid, like watching a movie in their mind. I find
| that wild. There is an anecdote about Richard Feynman and
| another scientist or mathematician and how they kept time
| differently. If I remember, one saw the clock in their mind and
| the other relied on counting aloud mentally. I'm not sure where
| I read it, sorry.
| silisili wrote:
| I'm pretty much the same.
|
| However, one thing that throws me off is that when I see my
| parents or other people I don't see often, they look markedly
| different than I remember (aging). But I can't picture them
| in my head. So why is said disconnect occurring?
| theragra wrote:
| I also was able to see stuff in middle school, like in a
| movie. Now I can't see anything, like you. And I also have a
| lot of music in my head
| bafe wrote:
| No, I somehow get the impression that outside of dreams my
| internal life consists mostly of words
| afpx wrote:
| I see a rendering of a vague apple in front of me, slightly up
| and to the right of my center vision toward my peripheral. The
| alpha is almost 0, but if I focus on it, the alpha turns up to
| maybe 0.02 and I can see low-resolution details. I can change
| it's color, scale it, rotate it, slice it in half with an
| imaginary knife, etc.
| jddj wrote:
| I _think_ I 'm with you, but I'm not sure if you're putting too
| much emphasis on visual.
|
| It certainly doesn't seem to come from the same place as
| regular vision does, but they do say "mind's eye". I can
| imagine an apple, and even slice it up, spin it around, pour
| water on it. It has a colour, and can have any colour.
|
| I always wondered how memories seemed (TFA touches on this but
| not in detail) to people who claimed to be minds-eye-blind. Can
| you not put yourself back on that beach when you were in your
| mid twenties? Can you not remember his/her eyes/hair/smile/etc
| at all? Isn't it kind of an image?
|
| As an aside, the apple thing is actually slightly easier if I
| dedicate only part of my attention to it, like casually
| rotating it while writing this text, than if I close my eyes
| and focus. But I've been working all day so clear focus in
| general is hard to attain right now.
| japostoles wrote:
| When I think of a black and white apple in the context you
| described, vs. a red or green one, there's a difference. The
| way you've explained it makes me feel like we're similar, and
| I'm definitely putting too much emphasis on visual.
|
| My sister, though, said when she thinks of something in her
| mind it's "blurry like [she doesn't] have glasses on", which
| sounds highly visual.
|
| I'm wondering if it's more about semantics and a
| tomato/tomato like thing -- technically anything we visualize
| is calling up a memory, or at made up of various components
| from memory.
| htss2013 wrote:
| I think I see detailed renderings, eg, of a person's face. But
| if I try to focus on the face and really examine its details I
| can't. It's like that experience of trying to read a book in a
| dream but when you go to read the lines, they're blurry.
|
| I suspect when we see what appear to be detailed renderings in
| our imagination, we are really seeing a compressed "essence" of
| the thing and our brains trick us into thinking we could focus
| on the details if we wanted to, when we really can't. It's
| basically a conservation of energy thing.
| godshatter wrote:
| When I try to see an apple, I see absolutely nothing. I can
| pretend that there is an apple in front of me and that it's
| spinning or whatever, but all I've really done is remember what
| attributes I've given it and roughly what size it is.
|
| There are some odd things I've paid attention to since I became
| aware I had aphantasia and that it was a thing. I know for a
| fact that my dreams are visual because I've had lucid dreams
| before and was aware of them being visual and at a higher
| fidelity than my eyes can normally see. I do see images when
| I'm almost asleep or not quite awake yet. I've seen some images
| after meditating for a long while, but I suspect I was just
| starting to fall asleep. Other than that, eerily enough, the
| only thing I've been able to see that doesn't involve photons
| hitting my retinas when completely awake is the ghost of a
| young woman that shyly watches me from the hallway when I'm
| sometimes watching TV that I've seen on a few occasions. Make
| of that what you will because I have no idea what to make of
| it.
| japostoles wrote:
| Minus the last couple sentences, I would describe things the
| same way you did in terms of visualizing, and have
| experienced all those things.
|
| Along the same lines as the young woman you're experiencing,
| I used to get out of body experiences/sleep paralysis/waking
| dreams (pick a label) nightly when I was in my 20s, and I
| would see shadows and outlines of what would seem like
| energies. That was mostly non-visual and interpretive, which
| feels more like my minds-eye than a dream.
|
| Not to go off topic, but ever try communicating with the shy
| woman?
| bafe wrote:
| I stil (occasionally) get sleep paralysis in the form of a
| person descending a rope from the ceiling or trying to
| enter from the window. Over time I learned to recognise it
| for what it is and control my reaction, saving a few
| bedside lamps in the process
| godshatter wrote:
| No, I never tried and she hasn't come around for a few
| months that I've noticed. I don't know if she's a ghost or
| whatever, but if it is something that's self-aware I didn't
| want to give it the impression that I was inviting it into
| my home.
|
| The first time I saw her I did go search around the house
| in case I had a "homeless person living in a cupboard"
| scenario.
|
| I've never experienced sleep paralysis, thankfully, even
| when working on being able to dream lucidly.
|
| On the topic of aphantasia, I would expect sleep paralysis
| and any visual hallucinations to be on the dreaming/near to
| dreaming side of the fence since that circuitry seems to
| work for people with aphantasia as far as I can determine.
| If I try to think of specific memories involving people I
| am very close to I can get a flash of something that goes
| away before I'm even really aware of it that seems to be in
| the side channel people talk of. It doesn't seem to work
| for anything not emotionally connected, and only rarely.
|
| The lady that has visited me was felt completely different.
| Thinking back, I have also been able to see auras, and just
| proved to myself that I still have that ability. It might
| be a visual abnormality or something, though. If I was
| actually visualizing, it was an overlay and not on a side
| channel.
| bassrattle wrote:
| Yes, I see it in the mind but not with my eyes. In a way, all
| vision is in the mind, but the origin of the image is like a
| different channel of information. I'm aware of the blackness
| behind my closed eyelids, but it's easy to let that go, switch
| focus to a different channel of information. There is a perfect
| image of an apple in a white space.
| japostoles wrote:
| This is a very interesting way of describing it, and worded
| this way I think I'm the same way.
|
| It does feel like paying attention to a different input
| stream -- just like that -- although it's still not a visual
| that replaces the darkness, but I'm getting, what I would
| say, the effects of seeing the apple.
| sdiupIGPWEfh wrote:
| > Anyone here seeing an actual rendering with their eyes
| closed?
|
| At times. Outside dreams, it's most vivid during hypnagogic
| states, where anything I try to picture manifests with full
| clarity.
|
| During regular waking hours, it's much less intense, usually
| somewhere right in the middle of the various aphantasia tests
| I've come across. Colors are sometimes there. But I can rotate
| and examine 3d objects in my mind quite well, and when I'm
| painting, it's always better when I can paint a subject in my
| head first. I can also see words and visualize numbers.
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