[HN Gopher] ChromeOS is Linux with Google's desktop environment
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ChromeOS is Linux with Google's desktop environment
Author : devonnull
Score : 68 points
Date : 2023-10-05 19:25 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.aboutchromebooks.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.aboutchromebooks.com)
| hulitu wrote:
| No. Chrome OS is an OS using the Linux kernel and a custom
| userland.
|
| Android is also not "Linux".
| discreditable wrote:
| Chrome/Linux instead of GNU/Linux?
| systems wrote:
| would it be correct, to say, it is a linux, but not gnu linux ?
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| No, it literally is GNU/Linux, with glibc and coreutils and
| everything.
|
| EDIT: Rereading the thread I should spell out: I only meant
| ChromeOS; Android is indeed different.
| talent_deprived wrote:
| Incorrect. If it runs the Linux kernel, it is Linux.
| Period. End of story. Android is Linux.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| What do you think is incorrect, exactly? ChromeOS is a
| GNU/Linux distribution - a Linux kernel with GNU and
| other userspace components on top - derived from Gentoo.
|
| Android, it's true, is a non-GNU Linux distro, which
| _does_ use mostly custom userspace parts over the Linux
| kernel.
|
| I wasn't intending to discuss Android, just to point out
| that ChromeOS _is_ a GNU /Linux system, and a
| surprisingly vanilla one at that.
| entropicdrifter wrote:
| You're correct, but the person you replied to is correct
| as well. ChromeOS is GNU/Linux. Android is Linux but not
| GNU/Linux
| treyd wrote:
| The Android libc is called bionic.
| 9front wrote:
| No, it wouldn't! Linux is the kernel only. A small part, and
| very important, of the ChromeOS ecosystem.
| parl_match wrote:
| You could say this about almost any Linux-based GUI-first
| system.
|
| Linux is a small part, and very important, of the Ubuntu
| ecosystem.
| 9front wrote:
| The GUIs running on top of a Linux kernel are written in
| C, C++, or another programming language. That's not
| Linux.
| parl_match wrote:
| > That's not Linux
|
| I don't think I said that it was :)
| phpnode wrote:
| Linux is the name of the kernel
| vore wrote:
| If it runs Linux, it's Linux.
| talent_deprived wrote:
| If it runs the Linux kernel, it's Linux. It isn't Windows, Mac,
| BSD, SunOS, or any other OS...it's Linux.
| maxamillion wrote:
| Google put in a ton of work to make all the Linux and Android
| sandboxing while still being able to do file sharing into the
| sandboxes, Wayland GUI app bridging, usb pass-through, and a
| bunch of other stuff.
|
| https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromiumos/docs/+/HEAD/con...
|
| ChromeOS got good and is wildly underrated for software
| development. -\\_(tsu)_/-
| septic-liqueur wrote:
| Couldn't agree more. I recently bought a cheap $200 Chromebook
| and I have to say that it outperforms my high end Windows +
| WSL2 machine from work for programming related tasks.
|
| Linux just works without all the WSL issues, I can run Visual
| Studio Code, Docker and anything that I tried so far.
|
| It's actually a delight to work on. I can only imagine how much
| better yet it will be with a top tier Chromebook
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| I find this very hard to believe. There is no "$200
| Chromebook" that will ever out-perform a "high-end" machine
| no matter if it's running Windows + WSL2 or not. So what are
| the specs of this "high-end" machine?
| freedomben wrote:
| they did say "for programming related tasks" which could
| just be running vim.
|
| I agree though, this claim seems unlikely to me.
| tedunangst wrote:
| This is generally true if you include time spent rebooting
| and applying updates, and dismissing "knock, knock, it's
| Valentine's Day" notifications from windows, etc.
|
| Depends on programming language. Not every compiler
| benefits linearly from 16 cores.
| mderazon wrote:
| I meant to say that it "outperforms" less in terms of speed
| (although it's not bad relative to the price of the laptop)
| but more in terms of developer experience. Everything just
| works in Linux and it's fast compared to WSL which I get
| constant issues.
| switch007 wrote:
| Yeah we're going to need specs of both machines to begin to
| believe that lol
| pjmlp wrote:
| Paying top dollars/euros for a laptop with 8GB/128GB isn't my
| idea of an ideal developer laptop.
| Teckla wrote:
| 8GB/128GB goes _a lot_ further on a Chromebook than it does
| on creaky, old, slow, bloated Windows. And Chromebook prices
| are very good.
|
| I recently got a Chromebook and I'm amazed at how snappy and
| fast it is. And its built in Linux is amazing.
| eikenberry wrote:
| How much of that has been upstreamed? I dug around a little but
| could only find things on upstreaming kernel patches.
| joeframbach wrote:
| So much work went into this, such a shame it's going to be
| sunset. The eventuality is really a non-starter for adoption.
| wffurr wrote:
| Just because it's a Google product? They use it internally.
| Laremere wrote:
| I loved Chromebooks. However I've been pretty turned off by
| them when my Chromebook which was working perfectly fine
| recently told me it's not getting security updates anymore. Now
| because the OS and browser are the same machine, the whole
| system is insecure.
|
| Next laptop will be a framework, so I guess I'll see how that
| goes.
| heresie-dabord wrote:
| Similar to you, I'm a happy Chromebook customer with a good
| Chromebook that no longer receives updates since earlier this
| year. But Google also offers ChromeOS Flex [1] which I now
| run on my Chromebook.
|
| You can even install ChromeOS Flex on a non-ChromeOS PC.
|
| [1]
| https://chromeenterprise.google/intl/en_ca/os/chromeosflex/
| foota wrote:
| I think they're decoupling the os and browser releases,
| although I'm not sure if it works for old ones or not.
| https://www.androidpolice.com/chromebook-decouple-chrome-
| fro...
| septic-liqueur wrote:
| They've extended updates recently
| https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366
|
| For old models as well
| nnwright wrote:
| Completely agree. Now if they would just add a meta key to the
| bottom row of the keyboard I'd be a happy user. Ctrl and Alt
| are not enough. And seriously, they are comically large on
| every chromebook I've owned. Give me a meta key in all that
| wasted space.
| slim wrote:
| Do google developers develop on Chromebooks ?
| danwilkerson wrote:
| Yup!
| LordDragonfang wrote:
| They do, but for the googlers I know it's just as a thin
| client for their remote desktop software
| (https://remotedesktop.google.com/).
| xt00 wrote:
| So wait to be specific here -- is the setup that people
| develop on:
|
| 1. chrome-os device
|
| 2. install a debian VM
|
| 3. do all their development in a VM where they can easily
| install packages they need etc?
|
| 4. so they are doing dev in a VM on a core-i3 intel machine I
| guess?
| mdwalters wrote:
| Not exactly. There are some ways to install GNU/Linux
| distros on Chromebooks, the Eupnea project's Depthboot
| script[1], for example, lets users build/run a distro by
| extracting the rootfs from an ISO file, and apply
| Chromebook-specific patches, like using ChromeOS' kernel,
| using keyd to make patches to support the Chromebook
| keyboard's action keys, and much others.
|
| (Disclaimer: I'm the current maintainer of the Eupnea
| project.)
|
| [1]: https://github.com/eupnea-linux-backup/depthboot-
| builder
| bitwize wrote:
| As I understand it, yes, albeit it's much easier at Google
| than some places. Google is pretty much a supercomputer with
| a company built around it; the Chromebook can serve as your
| terminal into that supercomputer, accessing your files,
| codebase, and other resources all remotely.
| AJRF wrote:
| All new devs are given Chromebooks unless they need a
| specific device (like a MacBook for iOS devs)
| nolist_policy wrote:
| Are they still given a Debian workstation besides that?
| Didn't know they are dogfooding ChromeOS that seriously.
| legolas2412 wrote:
| Nopes, everyone uses cloud VMs by default. These VMs were
| very powerful too.
| westurner wrote:
| But aren't devs also provided with: SSH, CI build minutes,
| and GCP budgets for containers and VMs?
|
| To actually dogfood Chromebooks internally like Chromebooks
| for Education and for Families, Google would need to deny
| its devs containers behind a greyed out "Turn on Linux"
| button and deny them access to Colab notebooks and AI
| platform etc (while only allowing Play Store apps); nothing
| to SSH to, no notebooks, no devpod, no local git repos (!),
| no local terminal to run e.g. pytest tests with, no
| devtools JS console, etc.
| [deleted]
| nolist_policy wrote:
| I'm pretty sure the grayed out "Turn on Linux" button due
| to policy setting by the organization managing the
| Chromebook.
| ajross wrote:
| I don't follow? Software developers... aren't students or
| children.
|
| It's a different market with different product
| segmentation and feature sets, it just happens to run on
| the same hardware and OS. And it's true that schools and
| parents often demand that their kids not hack stuff that
| the "admins" don't understand. And maybe that's bad or
| misguided or whatever. But it's not a statement about
| using a Chromebook as a developer client, which IMHO
| works very well.
| westurner wrote:
| The kids can't code locally on a git repo on Chromebooks
| and run make; they don't even have a terminal.
|
| Googlers only code remotely on Chromebooks.
|
| The kids MUST be able to run `pytest arithmetic.ipynb` on
| whichever platform.
|
| (It was not appropriate for Google 2016-2020 (?) to
| decide that we should all accept WASM runtime
| vulnerabilities in sandboxed browser processes running as
| the same user instead of per-app SELinux contexts like
| Android requires since _4.4+_ , or instead of containers
| and VMs like almost all of Google's hosted apps and
| internal systems)
|
| Cannot believe there's not even a JS console on these for
| the kids (because "Inspect Element" and "Turn on Linux"
| are blocked for them all)
| ajross wrote:
| I'm still not understanding the criticism. You're saying
| it's bad that kids can't hack on their school-
| supplied/parent-managed computers. And... I think I
| agree, as far as it goes.
|
| But you're responding to a thread saying "Chromebooks are
| good for Developers", where's it's just not responsive.
| There's absolutely no reason schools or parents can't
| hand kids unmanaged/unrestricted Chromebooks; they just
| choose not to (for some good and some bad reasons). Take
| that up with schools and parents, I guess?
| riversflow wrote:
| >There's no reason schools or parents can't hand kids
| unmanaged/unrestricted Chromebooks
|
| Holy cow. Are you serious? Kids break stuff for fun.
|
| This is basically a "You're holding it wrong" argument.
| Schools are gonna have heavily managed chromebooks,
| because it's the reality on the ground that they can
| hardly afford anything, much less insane IT support for
| every student. Like, kids are going to actively sabotage
| the software on their school equipment if they can as a
| way to avoid doing schoolwork. This was common when I was
| in high school over a decade ago, they solved it with
| Deep Freeze software and extremely restrictive Microsoft
| policies.
|
| Google is the one with a wealth of IT and developer
| talent, not school systems. They are making the product,
| not the schools. Devs have to come from somewhere, and
| going out a limb here, I don't think smartphones (the
| other computer that [low income] students are likely to
| have access to) provide an on ramp for developers, so it
| would be good if these chromebooks did.
| anonacct37 wrote:
| Not exactly but the equivalent yes. Workstation and VMs.
| All tests and builds are basically run in borg by
| default.
|
| For most Google developer developing on a Chromebook
| basically means running ssh and chrome remote desktop.
| mdwalters wrote:
| Which brand, though? I have a feeling it's one of those
| first-party Google Chromebooks...
| fancl20 wrote:
| In most cases HP
| ajross wrote:
| My daily driver right now is a mid-tier Tiger Lake board.
| You can get the equivalent for sub-$300 on Amazon. The
| client doesn't need to do much in the modern developer
| flow, running a browser, an X server and an ssh client is
| 90% of anything that needs to happen, with the occasional
| Linux Wayland client from the VM thrown in (Thunderbird
| for personal mail, occasional use of Audacity, stuff like
| that).
| [deleted]
| saagarjha wrote:
| You can request the computer you want. They will push you
| towards Chromebook but you can pick a normal Linux machine
| or a MacBook or even a Windows computer (don't do this).
| isp wrote:
| ChromeOS is wildly underrated in general, not only for software
| development.
|
| App sandboxing on standard (non-ChromeOS) Linux distributions
| is painful and finicky, while it "just works" on ChromeOS.
|
| I wish there was a non-hacky way to use Chromebooks without a
| Google account.
|
| The hacky options are:
|
| - "Switch to dev mode". But I don't want to be prompted to
| factory reset each boot.
|
| - "Create a dummy Google account and use that". But I don't
| want file syncing and tracking to reach Google at all, not even
| on a dummy account.
|
| - "Create a dummy Google account and use guest mode". But I
| want persistent storage.
| ajross wrote:
| > - "Switch to dev mode". But I don't want to be prompted to
| factory reset each boot.
|
| Developer mode simply puts up a splash at boot warning you
| that the OS is custom, you just press enter to boot. The
| requirement to do a drive wipe is a one-time thing when you
| enable it the first time (for obvious reasons, to prevent
| exfiltration of data stored by a secured OS).
| isp wrote:
| Thanks - has this changed in the past few years?
|
| A few years back (when I last looked in depth), it was very
| easy at every boot (not only first boot) to accidentally
| wipe everything - e.g., https://www.reddit.com/r/Crouton/co
| mments/3be2su/reducing_ri...
|
| I also remember that it made a loud beep on every boot!
| senkora wrote:
| I used a Chromebook as my main laptop for a year in
| college, and I always had to apologize to nearby
| strangers for the beep.
|
| (CS major, coding happened mostly over SSH to the school
| servers, but I did run RStudio locally)
| ajross wrote:
| How often does one reboot their laptop around nearby
| strangers? I gotta be honest that some of these
| criticisms seem a little strained. I mean, it's true,
| they beep at boot when dev mode is enabled!
| senkora wrote:
| It's been awhile and I don't remember why I had to
| reboot, but it did happen. I guess past me did a lot of
| work in cafes, office hours, and common areas.
|
| I do remember that running a certain R program
| consistently caused the Chromebook to turn off, which was
| quite an issue for one particular office hours session!
| freedomben wrote:
| Chromium OS might be a good choice for you. I ran it on my
| Pinebook Pro for a bit and really liked it, and it's much
| more open.
| isp wrote:
| Thanks - I had a very brief look at Chromium OS, but
| couldn't spot answers to:
|
| (1) Is there a de-googled version of Chromium OS?
|
| (2) Is there a non-hacky way to install it to a Chromebook?
| bubblethink wrote:
| Nobody has the time to build, test, and maintain Chromium
| OS. Distros barely manage to build and maintain chromium.
| evasb wrote:
| Google should invest in ChromeOS as a serious PC/Laptop OS. It is
| ridiculous that Google made the choice to make ChromeOS the
| "cheap" OS.
| every wrote:
| ChromeOS is my x-window. Debian is my terminal. Google has done a
| nice job of integrating the two. The only real constraint is the
| hardware.
|
| Disclaimer: I was a pre-release beta tester for ChromeOS.
| badrequest wrote:
| The matte-black laptop they shipped out to beta testers for
| ChromeOS is still the best laptop I've ever owned. Maybe not
| processing speed-wise, but the size and everything else was
| perfection.
| 9front wrote:
| You could say that ChromeOS is Google's desktop environment with
| a Linux kernel, also. Which actually is!
| spankalee wrote:
| This might be a bit more accurate, especially if they ever
| switch to Fuchsia under the hood.
| amelius wrote:
| What happened to the Fuchsia project?
| wmf wrote:
| It's still going and Google still refuses to explain why it
| exists. It was rumored that some of the team was laid off
| during recent cost cutting.
| jsight wrote:
| Yeah, it is funny how successful Linux became as a desktop while
| basically noone was paying attention.
|
| I just wish the keyboards were more developer friendly. Give me F
| keys!
| mksybr wrote:
| Yeah, I put Linux on my Chromebook, but I've yet to figure out
| how to use the F keys, in ChromeOS fn does it.
| mdwalters wrote:
| You can do Search/Launcher + [action key here], for example
| Search/Launcher + - triggers F1. There is also a setting on
| ChromeOS that makes the action keys into function keys.
| loa_in_ wrote:
| My F keys go to 24, and I've got 7 macro keys in addition to
| that. It was just about enough for everything at any given
| time. Normal keyboards feel limited now.
|
| Actually the best thing was having keys nobody else has so
| their function was up to me to decide at absolutely all times.
| the_gipsy wrote:
| I haven't used F keys in years.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Leaving a lot of productivity on the table. Those and rest of
| the hotkeys allow me to duck out early at work. ;-)
| hnlmorg wrote:
| I used them heavily. Multiple times an hour. I'd be utterly
| lost without them. It would be like taking the shift key
| away.
| codemac wrote:
| Buy laptop without ChromeOS.
|
| Install ChromeOS Flex.
|
| Be happy.
|
| I did this with a Lenovo X1 Nano, my favorite chromebook ever.
| sillywalk wrote:
| I just wish the trackpad had more than one button. My C434 has
| the Apple Hockey-puck mouse of trackpads.
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| settings => device => keyboard => treat top-row keys as
| function keys
| bitwize wrote:
| Search + top row registers as the first few f keys. Cumbersome
| but workable.
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(page generated 2023-10-05 23:00 UTC)