[HN Gopher] I'm not a programmer, and I used AI to build my firs...
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       I'm not a programmer, and I used AI to build my first bot
        
       Author : todsacerdoti
       Score  : 79 points
       Date   : 2023-10-05 18:57 UTC (4 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.replit.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.replit.com)
        
       | dom96 wrote:
       | Interesting, I think Replit can bring a lot to this. I did a
       | little experiment where I asked my partner to use ChatGPT to
       | write a Python script to solve a file comparison task, the
       | biggest challenge was the tooling (VS Code, terminal, etc),
       | something which I would expect Replit can make much easier. I did
       | a write up of it here: https://blog.picheta.me/can-chatgpt-help-
       | my-non-coder-partne....
        
         | anotherpaulg wrote:
         | Have a look at my open source tool aider. It is really focused
         | on a smooth "AI pair programming" chat workflow, and directly
         | integrates with your local git repo.
         | 
         | https://github.com/paul-gauthier/aider
        
       | m3kw9 wrote:
       | This means you are already a programmer
        
       | adenwill515 wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | dev_throw wrote:
       | All good until we get a new vector of subtly poisoned training
       | data introducing vulnerabilities if one doesn't understand the
       | generated code.
        
         | __loam wrote:
         | This is probably the funniest consequence of these models. Pre
         | gpt training data is going to be like the radiologically inert
         | steel we need to scavenge from sunken warships.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | ryanklee wrote:
         | How is this any different from the mountains of shitty code
         | produced every hour by millions of shitty developers
         | everywhere?
         | 
         | This form of argument appears in every thread about LLMs: They
         | are fallible, what will we ever do?!
         | 
         | As if people haven't been fallible in both the same and
         | different ways all along. How have we ever managed...
        
           | lionkor wrote:
           | It's different because people who use LLMs like this dont
           | expect the output to be malicious or wrong
        
       | jeremypress wrote:
       | I work with the OP and i can attest he really did not know how to
       | program before he tried this. I'll still help you debug Jeff
       | don't worry
        
         | stkenned wrote:
         | Also work with OP and can confirm: showed up with no natural
         | talent for it. Just amazing progress, buddy.
        
         | sjducb wrote:
         | Op did study math. Most ppl who studied maths can learn to
         | program fairly easily.
        
       | tomrod wrote:
       | I love seeing stories like this.
       | 
       | The ability to write code and perform in-depth engineering is a
       | fantastic skillset. It's also relatively rare for it to be done
       | well.
       | 
       | For the easy to potentially middling cases, AI-generated
       | applications are going to help a lot.
       | 
       | The downside is now there is pressure for quantity over quality.
       | Might be fuzzy in the market for awhile.
        
         | fullstackchris wrote:
         | > The downside is now there is pressure for quantity over
         | quality. Might be fuzzy in the market for awhile.
         | 
         | I don't know, it's been that way for a while now, hasn't it?
         | Every C level / product manager bombarded with "new tool /
         | language this", "new tool / language that" hype, when often its
         | a bunch of noise and only a small selection are likely the
         | correct choice for the org.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | shapenamer wrote:
       | Kinda curious what the author's stance on using AI to create art
       | is.
        
         | minimaxir wrote:
         | This post has no relationship to the current copyright/ethics
         | battles of generative AI.
        
           | ipaddr wrote:
           | Sure it does. The AI that was used was trained on copyright
           | material.
        
           | djmips wrote:
           | 'no relationship' is too strong.
        
           | shapenamer wrote:
           | Why not? It was trained on other people's work.
        
             | minimaxir wrote:
             | For one, the post isn't about AI art in any way, which
             | makes your comment appear as a low effort drive-by.
             | 
             | Second, the use case described in the submission is
             | functional and internal-only, and does not deprive or have
             | the potential to deprive software developers or artists of
             | any lost revenue or recognition. It's purely a reflective
             | experiment.
             | 
             | There's some nuance into the scope of generative AI, which
             | normally Hacker News does well at discussing. But kneejerk
             | "AI art is theft" comments only serve to discourage people
             | from sharing their experiences with AI.
        
               | shapenamer wrote:
               | Well I never said the article had anything to do with AI
               | art. I have simply noticed a pattern of almost everyone
               | agreeing that AI generated art is bad and harms real
               | artists, while simultaneously agreeing that AI generated
               | code is great and only helps programmers. My post was
               | fairly low effort though I'll give you that. It seems to
               | have pushed a few people's buttons none the less lol.
               | 
               | There's another story on HN posted today about balancing
               | money and meaning and one of the top comments is a
               | sarcastic put-down about the AI generate image at the top
               | of the blog post. If the author had used AI to create the
               | web page they'd almost certainly receive similar praise
               | as the comments on this one. Both AI's are trained on
               | other people's work, yet you seem to think even pointing
               | this out is unfair. Very strange imo.
        
               | minimaxir wrote:
               | > There's another story on HN posted today about
               | balancing money and meaning and one of the top comments
               | is a sarcastic put-down about the AI generate image at
               | the top of the blog post. If the author had used AI to
               | create the web page they'd almost certainly receive
               | similar praise as the comments on this one. Both AI's are
               | trained on other people's work, yet you seem to think
               | even pointing this out is unfair. Very strange imo
               | 
               | Most of the comments on that submission are negatively
               | and fairly accusing it of being ChatGPT generated:
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37779591
               | 
               | That submission also appears to have been
               | flagged/penalized, so yes, people aren't happy with it.
               | 
               | There is a significant difference between using AI for a
               | functional purpose that others can learn from and using
               | AI for low-effort marketing blogspam.
        
               | shapenamer wrote:
               | right, the text content was AI generated, and people
               | don't like that. But if any of the tech was AI generated
               | then the author would receive praise.
        
               | adamredwoods wrote:
               | I think the issue is the defiance in the headline.
               | 
               | So I could write an article about prompt engineering with
               | AI art and use the headline "I made an amazing art for my
               | blog without ever taking an art class!"
               | 
               | For example:
               | 
               | https://medium.com/geekculture/i-used-ai-to-create-
               | marvelous...
        
               | minimaxir wrote:
               | There's a difference between the implied "I'm a
               | programming newbie and AI helped me solve tough problems
               | I couldn't otherwise do" and the arrogant "with AI, you
               | don't need to learn how to code!" I am also not a fan of
               | the latter.
               | 
               | Either way, it's irrelevant to the GP's comment.
        
               | __loam wrote:
               | AI code is theft too. A lot of the code it's trained on
               | is copyleft. If you use code from copyleft projects, your
               | project is copyleft, you might just not know it. AI
               | coding systems like copilot benefit hugely from the FOSS
               | ecosystem, but they launder away the license which means
               | they're not contributing anything back to FOSS.
               | 
               | None of this is knee-jerk. These systems alienate massive
               | amounts of labor from the people and communities that did
               | that labor. There is a huge amount of risk involved with
               | mass adoption of this technology that most people on
               | hackernews seem content to either ignore or say it's not
               | relevant to the discussion like you are.
        
       | bethecloud wrote:
       | I love using replit to write tools for completing small tasks. I
       | recently used it to send out a SMS via twilio to my entire hs
       | class for our 10 year reunion.
        
       | ianbutler wrote:
       | You are now! It's the act of solving the problem not the code
       | itself that entirely matters. Code is simply an unfortunate
       | vehicle to do so. I've been programming for almost 20 years now,
       | 10 professionally and I love it. I also maintain that for a lot
       | of the programming that makes the world go round, it's not that
       | hard. People just convince themselves they won't be able to.
       | 
       | LLMs have supercharged me as an experienced dev, not writing
       | code[0], but rubber ducking[1] with something that talks back and
       | I can ask my question in an infinite amount of stupid ways and it
       | won't balk.
       | 
       | If it can do that for me, designing a database, it's about to
       | introduce a whole new wider range of "I'm not a programmer"s into
       | being programmers. Good timing too, the world needs it.
       | 
       | I know particularly prickly devs will be annoyed by people they
       | see as not true developers, but, and sorry to be so blunt, fuck
       | em. It's short sighted because if you're as deep and skilled as
       | you think you are, you won't intersect with this new wave of
       | programmers anyway.
       | 
       | [0] I stopped using copilot, it got in my way too frequently even
       | after initially liking it. [1] I use GPT4 and I intend to publish
       | my entire history of my back and forths I've had with it for
       | designing a database after I release my project, but it basically
       | just let's me bounce ideas off it. The caveat is this area is not
       | unfamiliar to me, and the techniques I'm discussing I know enough
       | about to call bullshit on when I see it.
        
         | qsort wrote:
         | > People just convince themselves they won't be able to.
         | 
         | As they say, there are two kinds of people: those who think
         | they can program and those who think they cannot, and they are
         | both right.
         | 
         | I'm not on the LLM hype train either, but if they can get more
         | people involved with programming that's genuinely awesome!
         | Everyone has to start somewhere, is typing random stuff into
         | Turbo C or whatever else was the "first contact" point of your
         | generation really any better?
        
           | ianbutler wrote:
           | Right exactly, for me It was https://www.byond.com/ with
           | their C like language Dream. Had their manual open on the
           | left and their game editor on the right and when I made the
           | low quality fireball move for the first time, the rest, as
           | they say, is history.
           | 
           | If, for this next generation, it's an LLM on Replit, that's
           | genuinely awesome.
        
             | [deleted]
        
         | jsight wrote:
         | Yeah, I'm noticing the same thing. I have a lot of questions
         | that could be Stackoverflow questions.
         | 
         | But to do that, I'd have to make sure there are no duplicates
         | and frame the question with every appropriate detail.
         | 
         | Or, I could just have a quick conv with the AI. Sure, it'll get
         | some things wrong, but so will SO answers. :) And it is amazing
         | at how clarifying it can be. Even the wrong answers are
         | sometimes a clue that the questions themselves are a little
         | off.
        
           | menacingly wrote:
           | I'm trying to think of a worse outcome for a QA site than the
           | anxiety a lot of people need to overcome to post to SO.
           | 
           | I'd like numbers on what % of questions are scolded for
           | having been asked
        
             | sublinear wrote:
             | The next iteration of chat bot can't possibly avoid being
             | this way either.
             | 
             | Collaboration on writing a better question is the only way
             | its answers could get to the next level and customized for
             | your specific use case. I'm imagining it spinning up a
             | generated SO clone for you to browse and scolding you just
             | the same (but at least giving you a decent link), or at
             | least asking why an answer you found isn't good enough.
             | 
             | The way collaborating with AI works now is too wordy and
             | error prone. You don't know what you don't know. Chat bots
             | still don't talk back much and that's a problem.
             | 
             | When we get to this level of AI, maybe some people will
             | finally understand that getting your expectations broken is
             | not a form of hostile communication.
        
             | sensanaty wrote:
             | I've literally never had a SO question
             | deleted/downvoted/any of the other stuff.
             | 
             | Just think of a genuinely good question and show you've
             | done a modicum of research and people will happily reply to
             | it
        
               | menacingly wrote:
               | I love the profoundly flawed "you should have searched"
               | logic. Nearly everyone who got there did so because a
               | google search failed. The first step in this process _is_
               | a search.
               | 
               | You're being whined at for not knowing the very specific
               | incantation which will summon the results. Which, if you
               | knew, you likely wouldn't need to ask anyway.
               | 
               | "You're stupid and your question is stupid. I forbid
               | answers. I will keep it up and nofollow all of the
               | scalped resources it links to in the hopes others can
               | come here and benefit from this lack of answer"
        
               | seanthemon wrote:
               | Marked as duplicate, use the search next time won't you??
        
               | bobsmooth wrote:
               | How can you do research if you don't know what you don't
               | know?
        
               | sensanaty wrote:
               | How do you expect anyone to help you if you don't know
               | what to ask? You have to at least have a starting point,
               | and that's usually more than enough on SO.
               | 
               | stackoverflow.com/users/8610114/sensanaty
               | 
               | Seriously just check out questions I've asked on SO.
               | They're nothing groundbreaking, a lot of them are pretty
               | beginner/basic questions, yet I've never really had
               | adverse reactions to any one of my questions. Some go
               | unanswered sure, and I might have one or two marked as
               | dupes (they are more or less) but if you've ever browser
               | the "new" portion of the site it's inundated with hudreds
               | of shitty, low effort questions, so it's understandable.
               | 
               | SO is also an excellent jumping off point for figuring it
               | out yourself. I've had dozens of times where I figured
               | out a solution midway through typing a question, since
               | you have to make good quality questions there in the
               | first place.
        
             | KMag wrote:
             | I'd also love to see the % of scoldings that miss an
             | important subtle difference in the questions being asked.
        
           | blibble wrote:
           | this works for the now as there was plenty of data to
           | parasitise, sorry, train from
           | 
           | technology moves on
           | 
           | in 2030, when stackoverflow have folded due to lack of
           | visitors, and all new data on new libraries/APIs are locked
           | up beyond OpenAI's reach
           | 
           | how useful is the AI going to be?
           | 
           | the whole thing sows the seeds of its own destruction
        
             | bobsmooth wrote:
             | >in 2030, when stackoverflow have folded due to lack of
             | visitors, and all new data on new libraries/APIs are locked
             | up beyond OpenAI's reach
             | 
             | Then I download the docs and feed it into the LLM I have
             | running locally.
        
             | JieJie wrote:
             | I hear what you are saying. What I think that what you're
             | missing is that subsequent conversations with AI, where
             | humans and AI solve problems together, is what the next
             | generation of AI is going to be trained on. That data is
             | being collected every time someone interacts with a
             | chatbot, which is why they are being provided -- so many of
             | them - as a free service.
             | 
             | It is, as before: if the service is free, you are the
             | product.
             | 
             | That being said, I think that to the extent AI is an
             | actually helpful product, as opposed to social media,
             | public forums, or free video hosting, the tradeoff is way
             | more worthwhile. In my most humble opinion. I'm sure your
             | calculus will lead to different outcomes.
        
               | blibble wrote:
               | only in very rare cases will the data from the
               | interaction actually be useful for training, simply
               | because the final version is rarely supplied to it
               | 
               | yes, it's asked to produce something, but it won't see
               | the result after substantial effort required to actually
               | make it work
               | 
               | the interaction is not going to be nearly enough to
               | produce useful training data to replace e.g.
               | stackoverflow
        
             | aperrien wrote:
             | Even open source API's?
        
               | blibble wrote:
               | what open source?
               | 
               | if the fair use lawsuit succeeds and copyright protection
               | over open source is essentially terminated: what
               | companies are going to open source anything?
        
             | jncfhnb wrote:
             | Probably still very useful
        
         | mistrial9 wrote:
         | the world is not a function of one person at a time; this
         | cheerful cheerleading is appropriate for pre-teens, and really
         | does work. On the other hand, this narrative plays directly
         | into the hands of employers who seek to devalue and routinize
         | complex tasks, delay or withhold career advancement, outsource
         | or sub-contract, or generally jump on the current worldwide
         | trend of firing high skill people and then re-offering lower
         | pay jobs with constraint.
         | 
         | Lastly, there is no distinction here between ephemeral code
         | like this week's JS, versus domain knowledge and abstraction
         | like an engineer or architect.
         | 
         | personal take - the enthusiastic F-U sounds like stimulants
         | talking...
        
           | ianbutler wrote:
           | Nope just my birthday :)
           | 
           | I'm usually a thorough pessimist, your comment just goes to
           | show can't win either way.
        
         | TerrifiedMouse wrote:
         | > but rubber ducking
         | 
         | I rather my rubber duck didn't tell me lies though. I really
         | hate it when I'm given incorrect information - a waste of my
         | time.
        
           | ianbutler wrote:
           | GPT4 has been outright wrong for me only a handful of times.
           | I know this because I typically have an academic paper for
           | the topic I'm working through next to me and knowledgable
           | friends who I discuss things with as well. I'm rarely using
           | GPT4 for things like syntax or APIs which can be easily
           | looked up elsewhere. I also rarely ask it to write code.
           | 
           | I know mileage may vary, but I just haven't had this often
           | quoted (but I suspect actually less first hand experienced)
           | situation when it comes to development.
        
           | aantix wrote:
           | Does it bother you when your colleagues are wrong as well?
        
             | cbm-vic-20 wrote:
             | My colleagues usually let me know when they're not sure
             | about something, and that they might be wrong.
        
             | TerrifiedMouse wrote:
             | I hate it when I'm wrong as well. Doesn't matter the
             | source.
             | 
             | Bad information is worse than no information.
        
         | 4ndrewl wrote:
         | Just came here it say this!
        
         | fhd2 wrote:
         | Absolutely agree. Those tools you use don't happen to work for
         | me, but that's entirely beside the point. We shouldn't look
         | down on people based on what tools do or do not work for them.
         | What matters is whether they solve the problem and if they can
         | maintain and expand the systems they build. If they can't, they
         | can always get help. If they can, that's cool too, the amount
         | of problems that need solving in the world seem about infinite
         | from a practical perspective.
         | 
         | I see "no code" tools the same way: It _is_ code, visual
         | programming is programming too. If that works for you, that's
         | cool.
         | 
         | One of the main things I do in my CTO/consulting work is
         | ironically to reduce the fear "non-programmers" often have of
         | software. If they can program to some degree, my experience is
         | that they'll respect the "real" programmers more - and
         | collaborate better.
        
         | asddubs wrote:
         | i don't think you're a programmer if you do not at least
         | understand code. it's not elitism, it's just a definition. you
         | don't have to be an expert or even understand it well, but if
         | you're just interacting with a chatbot and copying and pasting
         | without knowing anything about it, you are not a programmer.
         | what's next, if i execute a program on my computer I'm a
         | developer because it solves my problem?
        
           | reidjs wrote:
           | Similarly, just because you can change your oil that doesn't
           | make you a mechanic. Making a one off program to solve a
           | problem doesn't warrant the title necessarily. Not that the
           | title matters, though.
        
           | cgriswald wrote:
           | Its hard to take meaning from your definition of programmer
           | since you haven't defined code. As I understand 'code', it's
           | just an interface for programming, not definitional.
           | 
           | Consider the Python function 'max', which, given an iterable,
           | will return the iterables biggest item. Now suppose I ask
           | ChatGPT to generate a function (in whatever language you
           | like) called 'max' that does the same thing and it returns a
           | block of code that I copy and paste.
           | 
           | In what way is Python's 'max' meaningfully different from
           | ChatGPT's 'max'? It seems to me that these are essentially
           | both just higher-level abstractions.
        
             | asddubs wrote:
             | maybe you can argue the case that chatgpt is a programmer,
             | but all the human is doing here is making requests and
             | copying and pasting. is a manager a programmer?
             | 
             | or, to put it another way, if everyone is a programmer, the
             | word is meaningless.
        
               | piotrkaminski wrote:
               | Are you not a programmer because you use a compiler and
               | "paste" its output into the executable? Or an assembler,
               | instead of flipping bits by hand in memory? Are people
               | making complex spreadsheets with hundreds of formulas not
               | programmers?
               | 
               | We've been raising the level of abstraction in code for
               | decades and it looks like LLMs might just be the next
               | level up. Yes, using LLMs will put more complex code
               | within reach of more people but I'm sure it won't be
               | nearly everyone, and I bet that it'll raise the ceiling
               | of what the best programmers can do at the same time.
               | 
               | Of course, we're free to redefine what "programmer" means
               | at any time as well, if a new definition proves to be
               | more useful.
        
               | bobbiechen wrote:
               | Echoes of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room
               | thought experiment here.
        
           | croes wrote:
           | Am I an artist if I let Midjourney create an image for me
        
             | chank wrote:
             | No, you're an art "producer" in the same fashion of music
             | producers who are not musicians, but still create music.
        
               | diggan wrote:
               | Honest question: Where is the line drawn between music
               | producers and musicians? Playing instruments? Using
               | samples?
        
               | chank wrote:
               | Areas of responsibility. The producer is the person
               | ultimately responsible for the output. You can be a
               | producer and not know a lick about good musicianship or
               | play an instrument, but you have good taste and can use
               | tools (samples, software, etc) to take what others have
               | done to make something others will like/use/pay for/etc.
        
             | scj wrote:
             | AI aside, does compiling using gcc with -S make someone an
             | assembly programmer?
             | 
             | Doing so helped me become a better assembly programmer.
        
             | tacheiordache wrote:
             | >Am I an artist if I let Midjourney create an image for me
             | 
             | There are two answers:
             | 
             | a) No, that only proves you can type. b) Yes, you are an
             | artist just like everybody else.
        
         | slingnow wrote:
         | stranger: Hey guys, my car was making a weird squealing sound
         | the other day. Not knowing anything about cars, I went in there
         | with a hammer and methodically hit everything I saw that was
         | moving. Eventually the squealing stopped.
         | 
         | ianbutler: Congratulations! You're a car mechanic! And to be
         | blunt, fuck anyone who disagrees with me!
        
           | beepbooptheory wrote:
           | Its ok to feel anxiety around something that seemingly
           | challenges your identity, but you don't have to fight so hard
           | to hold on to such an unimportant part of your identity.
           | 
           | Nobody _is_ a programmer, really. We live in particular
           | moment of the world where this new idea of
           | professionalization tricks you into thinking sometimes what
           | you _are_ is first and foremost defined by what you trade on
           | the labor market. And this is an especially potent spell for
           | those, like us, who for right now particularly well
           | compensated in this market. But either way you must try not
           | to forget that this is just a kind of illusion. That we are
           | more united by shared capacity than discriminated by
           | "skill".
           | 
           | Why not take joy in the idea that what you have devoted
           | yourself to, presumably, can be a more shared and understood
           | thing for the world at large than that of a doctor or college
           | professor?
        
             | mistrial9 wrote:
             | engineer: do you need bonded insurance on this project?
             | architect: do you want common design themes in the parts of
             | this project? Philosopher: would you like frys with your
             | burger sir?
        
             | claytongulick wrote:
             | > Nobody is a programmer, really
             | 
             | Huh. So, being almost 50, having spent 35 of those years
             | writing code and orienting the majority of my life around
             | it - somehow that's separate from my identity?
             | 
             | Do tell.
        
             | krapp wrote:
             | Skill exists. Some of us are programmers. Some of us are
             | artists, musicians, writers, photographers, engineers. The
             | time we put into our craft, learning, practicing, has real
             | value. AI does not replicate that value, at best it only
             | steals it. We aren't united by shared capacity, because the
             | capacity belongs to the AI, not to you. We don't share
             | understanding because, when a black box does all the work,
             | there's nothing for you to understand.
             | 
             | You're standing in the dojo wearing the black belt you
             | bought at Wal-Mart and condescending to the masters for
             | acting as if any of the discipline and hard work they put
             | in meant anything, because look - you have the same belt as
             | everyone else, and didn't have to do shit for it.
             | 
             | This is why people hate AI and the people who use it.
        
               | bobsmooth wrote:
               | >This is why people hate AI and the people who use it.
               | 
               | And you all sound like luddites.
        
               | krapp wrote:
               | And you don't understand what the Luddites were about,
               | because they weren't wrong.
        
               | bobsmooth wrote:
               | Yes, they were. Technology always advances. You either
               | adapt or get left behind. You're just mad because after
               | 100 years of industrialization it's finally coming after
               | your job.
        
             | AlmostGreyBeard wrote:
             | Nobody is real, everything is an illusion defined by your
             | interpretation. Please. There is a standard definition of
             | what a programmer is. Dood that had an llm create his code
             | is not a programmer. You have to actually write code to
             | program..
        
         | redlohr wrote:
         | I've taken to using both vim and nvim, with nvim having
         | copilot. There are times when I'm going in, knowing that I'm
         | re-inventing the wheel, or that I'm refactoring. For those
         | times when I feel like copilot would just get in the way
         | there's vim.
         | 
         | Both copilot and GPT4 have been wonderful 80/20 tools in
         | different ways, and give a remarkable new way to learn.
        
       | galaxyofdoom wrote:
       | https://intuitiveexplanations.com/tech/replit/
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27424195
        
         | gumballindie wrote:
         | I knew nothing about replit prior to this post and upon reading
         | it and the claim of "20 million software creators building on
         | Replit" i knew there was something dodgy about this company.
         | Your links confirmed it.
        
           | swyx wrote:
           | look i'm admittedly replit friendly (tho no vested interest
           | whatsoever) but how does one badly handled issue with an
           | intern, make the entire company's 20m registered user claim
           | "dodgy"? its a very short path from there to wire fraud and i
           | dont think they will go anywhere near there.
        
       | booleandilemma wrote:
       | 2000: Hey dude can you fix my computer?
       | 
       | 2023: Hey dude can you fix my program?
       | 
       | I predict this is all LLMs are going to result in.
        
       | brap wrote:
       | Imagine having a person on your team who never learned
       | programming, and just uses AI to generate code
        
         | tiznow wrote:
         | Wait like 2-3 years and while you won't know it, you won't have
         | to imagine it.
        
         | Gigachad wrote:
         | You basically have this everywhere, non programmers building
         | simple automations in excel, building simple websites with
         | squarespace, now they can build simple chatbots as well.
         | Meanwhile the full time programmers move slightly up to more
         | complex tasks.
        
         | j0hnyl wrote:
         | This wouldn't be good for an engineering team, but it would be
         | great for almost any other team that doesn't have a strong
         | sense of what to automate and how.
        
           | thwarted wrote:
           | _would be great for almost any other team that doesn 't have
           | a strong sense of what to automate and how_
           | 
           | The "what" is always the hardest part, both to acknowledge as
           | being necessary and to get right.
        
             | j0hnyl wrote:
             | The "what" is the hard part, yes, but the other hard part
             | is finding the bandwith to get the business to build this
             | automation. LLMs empower non-engineers with a technical
             | bent to create helpful solutions for themselves.
        
           | krapp wrote:
           | The reality of this is the only engineers involved will be
           | "prompt engineers."
        
         | jncfhnb wrote:
         | The world is full of devs who do not know how to code
        
       | spandextwins wrote:
       | [flagged]
        
         | footy wrote:
         | I think if I worked somewhere where the other employees (or
         | worse,the higher ups) talked about me that way I'd produce shit
         | code too. Doing more than the bare minimum is reserved for
         | places where I'm respected, and I doubt I'm the only one.
        
         | efnx wrote:
         | Really? And which model? What kind of setup are you using?
        
         | redox99 wrote:
         | > Now we've transitioned to mostly AI writing the bulk of the
         | code with the senior developers still doing their thing.
         | 
         | > We've found the code quality coming out of our AI is a lot
         | better than the H1b's could produce.
         | 
         | That sounds weird. In my testing GPT4 falls apart for
         | medium/large codebases. It's good for small microservices
         | though.
        
         | screamingninja wrote:
         | > We've found the code quality coming out of our AI is a lot
         | better than the H1b's could produce.
         | 
         | Are you seriously perpetuating stereotypes against a set of
         | people based on their immigration status?
        
           | jrflowers wrote:
           | Of course not, why would you write "cheap" when you can write
           | "h1b"? Referring to people by only the noun of their
           | immigration status with no other information in no way has
           | any reflection on how GP thinks about anyone based on their
           | immigration status.
        
           | codeisawesome wrote:
           | Yep, and what's more, I'm sure that commenter is not
           | referring to, say, ethnically German or French visa holders
           | when disparaging "all those H1Bs" ;) I've learned to not be
           | surprised by the persistent and nasty 'community' of these
           | types of commenters here on HN, fortunately they're not the
           | majority.
        
           | __loam wrote:
           | [flagged]
        
           | lmm wrote:
           | An immigration status that's routinely abused to bring in
           | underpaid workers to suppress wages; it's not a personal
           | attack to say that those exploited workers will generally be
           | low-skill, any more than stereotyping PHBs or management
           | consultants or first-year students as ignorant is.
        
           | AlmostGreyBeard wrote:
           | No, he's saying he had cheap coders creating cheap code.
        
             | spandextwins wrote:
             | Absolutely.
        
       | Imnimo wrote:
       | Does Replit Ghostwriter reference live documentation of the API
       | you're asking for, or is this just coasting on having memorized a
       | recent version of the Slack API? If the latter, this seems like a
       | completely unsustainable approach to development. What happens
       | when an API change is introduced and none of the code Ghostwriter
       | is giving you works, and its explanations of the API are all
       | wrong?
        
       | tiznow wrote:
       | I am learning programming -- or rather, relearning programming
       | from a middle school/high school course basis into further
       | achievement. While I believe that using AI to "code for you" is
       | just undercutting your potential to be any sort of "good"
       | programmer, using AI to learn and ask questions repeatedly
       | without fear of judgment is the key.
       | 
       | That being said, using AI to code can just screw you over by
       | presenting bad code, faulty code or the LLM simply not
       | understanding the demands. It's not a tool to use in lieu of
       | actually knowing/learning how to code and understanding the
       | programming language in question.
        
       | __loam wrote:
       | Yer a programmer Harry
        
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