[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Whats the modern day equivalent of 80s compu...
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Ask HN: Whats the modern day equivalent of 80s computer for kids to
explore?
I fondly remember setting up and playing video games and learning
all the DOS commands. Navigating the dos prompts, directories etc.
I ask only that it felt navigable and you needed to be able to do
that to get to playing games. It felt like an unintended
introduction to the architecture of the games. This included edit
files etc (sometimes to my detriment). Was thinking about getting
a system to play games in the house but my feeling is that theres
no technical lift for installing playing games. That playing the
game was enough of an incentive to figure out the shell. Curious
if anyone has ideas. Thanks!
Author : boringg
Score : 40 points
Date : 2023-10-01 12:24 UTC (10 hours ago)
| jpalomaki wrote:
| I think the "competition" is much harder nowadays. When you have
| all the AAA games available, it's not that exciting to just get
| something moving on the screen.
|
| Maybe something physical would be interesting? Like programming a
| led-strip (nowadays you have these where you can individually
| address the lights), robotic arm or something like that.
|
| If kids are into certain games, maybe there's some opportunities
| to explore on the modding side. Like for the Euro Truck simulator
| you can bring your own graphics for the trucks. No idea how
| complicated it is to package those, but it would probably teach a
| ton of things.
| chewz wrote:
| I remember learning 6502 assembler from popular computer magazine
| to add myself more armored divisions and nukes in some war
| strategy game on C-64. Hard to imagine these days with modern
| games.
| karmakaze wrote:
| There's a mod scene around a lot of games. Start out liking a
| video game, get on some board discussing it, then find out
| there's people making customizations.
| boringg wrote:
| Right? I remember messing around with config files as a
| starting point. I know it still exists but that it doesn't have
| the same accessibility it used to. I found this stuff on my own
| - now id probably have to lead my children to it after
| ressearch. Different dynamic thats all.
| n2dasun wrote:
| My favorite part of those old computers was sitting with a big
| book of code and typing things in and seeing a sprite appear,
| then move, change colors, etc. The closest thing I've seen in
| recent years was Code Angel, which I supported on kickstarter. It
| came with a raspberry pi with all the software loaded, along with
| a monstrous book of code to flip through and type in. Looks like
| some of the links are dated, but it appears to still be available
|
| https://mycodeangel.com/shop/
| bowsamic wrote:
| Your childhood interest in 80s computing is like the golden era
| of MMOs. Now there are bigger and "greater" things and the entire
| thing just seems poor and pointless now. You can't go back and
| recreate it, because the context is now different. It would be
| pure re-enactment. Back then it was the best thing about, if you
| didn't have an arcade near you then it was probably even the most
| powerful videogames machine you had access to. Now, there is
| always the knowledge that you will never make something as cool
| as what the big companies can make.
| herbst wrote:
| Computercraft in Minecraft is a fun example. Next Minecraft
| generally
| rocky1138 wrote:
| The Agon Console 8 springs to mind. It boots to BBC BASIC.
| https://www.hackster.io/news/the-agon-console8-is-an-educati...
| mcook08 wrote:
| I'm a Dad who grew up in the 80s and the problem is us, the
| parents. My parents didn't push me to get into computing, I just
| found it fascinating. If we try to find things like gentle
| introductions, it's likely to get more kids to a base level
| familiarity but all of the real learning was in reading a 256
| page manual as an 8 year old so I could get StarCraft to work on
| my highly custom rig. Parents as the driving force simply won't
| work. Ask your kids what they are interested in and let them
| struggle with the problem for hours (days even) and they'll be
| better for it than anything you could possibly install or provide
| to them.
|
| Could your parents navigate DOS? Mine sure couldn't but it didn't
| stop me from learning.
| rapind wrote:
| This has been my experience too. Not for a lack of trying
| either! Looking back now, it seems obvious.
|
| I like to leave interesting things lying around where we
| hangout the most though. Giving them at least an opportunity to
| get interested (and almost inevitably lose interest!).
| lolinder wrote:
| This is a great answer. I think you already hint at this but I
| wanted to elaborate on it a bit: the big thing that our kids
| fall in love with will not necessarily be computing (at least
| not in the sense that we mean), and that's okay.
|
| We grew up at various stages of a massive revolution--some are
| reminiscing for the 80s, I'm at the tail end reminiscing for
| the early web and then the Flash era. Computers were wonderful
| to me because I could, as a kid, produce results that looked
| and felt like they were in the same ballpark as what I saw
| professionals doing. It was the frontier, and I felt like I was
| helping to explore it.
|
| In the last two decades computing has grown up, and having
| grown up it's no longer possible for children to participate in
| the frontier. From a young age they interact primarily with
| toys and tools that would be impossible for any one of us to
| make alone, much less for a child who's still learning.
| Sandboxes like Scratch are great, but an adventurous kid who
| wants to be at the frontier will very quickly recognize it as
| just that: a sandbox. It's not as compelling because it's
| artificial, created specifically for their education.
|
| Instead, I expect that my children will find something else, a
| new frontier to push. My kids don't want toys curated by their
| parents, they want to explore the world and they want to
| contribute. They are going to find the fields that are still
| fresh, that still have mystery, that don't require years of
| education to get to the point where they can contribute
| meaningfully. And that's awesome! I'm excited to see what they
| find, and excited for them to show me along.
| kyriakos wrote:
| I am also a dad that grew up in the 80's and my thoughts on
| this issue is that back in those days there was a much smaller
| selection of things you could do with a computer, less stimuli
| and smaller need for instant gratification. At some point
| computers turned from being a tool you could create to a tool
| you use to consume other people's creations. From my
| experience, children today don't have enough patience to learn
| how to hack things around before they get bored and move on to
| the next thing. There amount of distractions is insane (web,
| social media, youtube, easily accessible video games etc). Its
| more likely a kid will avoid the problem than try to solve it
| at this point. I feel we lost something important along the
| way.
| eezing wrote:
| Computers weren't on my radar until my grandmother surprised me
| with one. I came home from school and there lay 2 huge boxes. I
| was on my own from there.
|
| I was given the opportunity.
| f1shy wrote:
| >>Parents as the driving force simply won't work.
|
| I keep seeing that myth. Most of the people I know studies the
| same as their parents, inspired by them. Specially what catches
| in kids are hobbies. I have lots of friend which are
| professional or semi professional musicians. All of them got
| the playing of the instrument from the parents.
| lolinder wrote:
| My wife's siblings are all musicians because that's the
| direction their mom drove, but nearly all of them now wish
| that they'd been allowed to pursue what they were truly
| interested in. If given a choice, only one of six would have
| chosen music as the primary thing in their life.
|
| Seeing that, my feeling isn't so much that parents as the
| driving force doesn't work, it's that it's cruel. Our kids
| are not blank slates for us to write on, they have many
| predispositions and interests that we have only the smallest
| influence over. It is far more effective and more ethical for
| us to help them develop those interests in ways that will
| benefit them over the long haul than to try to teach them the
| things that interest _us_.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| > Our kids are not blank slates for us to write on
|
| So true. Hopefully we can give them (what we consider) good
| basic values. But we can't (and should try to) mold every
| aspect of their intests and personalities. And anyone who
| thinks that they can is in for a rude shock.
| f1shy wrote:
| There is a difference between showing to start interest and
| shoving down the throat. I know both kinds.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| From my experience, the best approach is to get your children
| to try lots of different things and let them find their own
| interests. I tried lots of things with my son:
|
| https://successfulsoftware.net/2014/01/31/fun-and-geeky-thin...
|
| Some he really enjoyed. Other he lost interest in very quickly.
|
| It can be frustrating when they quickly lose interest in some
| toy you have spent your hard earned cash on. But that is the
| way it goes. One of the things we tried was model rocketry
| (starting with a small Estes kit) and that was a big success.
| He has now won competitions, is level 1 certified and wants to
| study aerospace engineering at University.
|
| I guess it is a bit like running a film studio - most of the
| films lose money, but the occasional blockbuster more than
| makes up for it.
| OJFord wrote:
| I don't really have a suggestion for a motivating goal (like a
| game), but my first thought is Linux not Windows or macOS. I 'cut
| my teeth' on Windows, but you just end up with pointless
| techniques/'skills' with no understanding like 'try rebooting',
| 'clear registry' etc. and simply setting an environment variable
| is made to seem like some mystifyingly advanced thing.
|
| Second thought is Raspberry Pi - through a combination of cost &
| GPIO. You didn't mention hardware, but with 'computers' at the
| user-friendly stage they are today, that's probably the best way
| to recreate the feeling you want? Tinkering on the computer
| resulting in some real life visual/audible/etc. output. (Or RL
| sensors making something happen on the computer.)
| jmmv wrote:
| I tried to set up a Raspberry Pi and configured it to boot into a
| simple window manager with DosBox full screen by default. I
| taught my kids to launch games within that and they learned the
| very basics... but it didn't stick: they haven't really gained
| any interest in how to do other stuff in the shell.
|
| Anyway: check (my own) https://www.endbasic.dev/ which I've
| written precisely for the situation you describe :) You would
| actually have to /write/ the games first though! There are some
| rudimentary ones in the gallery.
| f1shy wrote:
| This is a good idea. What I think you need (based on my own
| experience) is a book with documentation and exercises, games
| and such. Also you need interfaces with video, sound, and some
| hardware.
| meltyness wrote:
| I don't know if there's any abstraction as wonderful as the
| disk->file abstraction that has enabled most modern computing.
|
| Perhaps though the current frontier is the software->application
| abstraction that can be explored through public git repositories
| and Github "Topics".
|
| Of course the application for this set would mirror the popular
| brain drains, short-form content production, video game
| mods/cheats/piracy, deep fakes and pranks, etc.
|
| Just as the OS and operation of a few commercial packages you had
| access to in the 80s seemed limitless, so is the landscape of
| FOSS packages.
|
| Here: https://github.com/topics/gtav
| alexwasserman wrote:
| I bought a Kano kit for my son (he was 9 or 10). I think they
| went under but it was a Pi 3 with a specific Linux based OS
| designed for learning.
|
| It came in bits with very nice instructions for building it.
| Bright cables, easy Lego style diagrams. The keyboard is wireless
| with a built in track pad, and charges via a built in usb cable.
| All very neat and self contained.
|
| We got to build a whole computer, plug it into the TV, and it
| behaves a bit like a console.
|
| It has a mix of learn shell, basic programming and fun Linux
| games (including Minecraft). The whole OS includes a gamified
| points system too, to encourage more learning.
|
| I think the OS is a free download, but you could easily get a Pi
| and some fun accessories and build something.
|
| On my to-do list next is building a pi based motion sensor camera
| for the basement to see if we have mice. Part serious need, part
| fun game.
|
| For a lot of things though he learns more left alone. Building
| iPad and iPhone games using some of the drag and drop gaming
| toolkit apps, for example. My parents had no idea what I did on
| the computer and couldn't have helped. I taught myself. He likes
| that too
| realo wrote:
| Factorio, but for kids...
| devit wrote:
| Getting non-native games to run on emulators can sometimes give a
| similar experience.
|
| You can also do things like having a Linux machine with a
| powerful GPU but no GUI installed.
| code_Whisperer wrote:
| Depends on child's age, but here are some things from today that
| I would have probably found endlessly entertaining when I was a
| kid:
|
| Flipper Zero
|
| Raspberry PI
|
| SDR
|
| Not a computer, but still very relevant for inquisitive kids and
| adults:
|
| Amateur radio (an oldie but a goodie)
|
| Decent telescope
|
| Decent microscope
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Computers were the most technically advanced and innovative thing
| a kid would see in the 80s. All their friends at school would be
| talking about them in some form or another. There was no
| distractions with smartphones or the internet either. Not so much
| nowadays so those times are gone.
| dmvdoug wrote:
| Small robots, Raspberry Pi, small drones: those are the things
| I've seen at high school level.
|
| The terrifying part is that the great majority of my 9th graders
| are not very experienced with actual computers (laptops
| included). Their knowledge of computing extends no further than
| their phones, but because phones are so powerful, there's
| nothing, particularly mysterious or compelling about computers.
| They were like magic boxes that you just had to figure out
| somehow when I was a kid.
| naveen99 wrote:
| Chatgpt ?
| ilaksh wrote:
| Modern: Building games in Roblox?
|
| You could get a Raspberry PI (or any computer with an emulator)
| or a real 80s computer. Set the PI up with whatever emulator. And
| maybe a book like this one
|
| https://colorcomputerarchive.com/repo/Documents/Manuals/Hard...
|
| Getting Started With Extended Color Basic.
|
| Or set up a normal Linux without installing a GUI.
|
| Or set up an emulator with DOS Box.
|
| Or install nothing but Unity/Unreal Engine/Godot on a computer
| and disconnect it from the internet.
| PenguinCoder wrote:
| Don't let your kids get exploited by Roblox.
| boringg wrote:
| Hmm good ideas in here. I have a pi at home - never considered
| it for that kind of option.
| taf2 wrote:
| Arduino/ circuit python and Lego
| anta40 wrote:
| I wonder if this article is somehow related:
| "https://www.gamesindustry.biz/machine-code-is-for-kids-artic..."
|
| TLDR: The author (a game developer who started with BASIC on ZX
| Spectrum in the 80s) asked if there's a modern equivalent of
| BASIC with "little to no abstraction". In the past, it used to be
| the BASIC-asm combo.
| pan69 wrote:
| Your kids are most likely interested in things you are not
| interested in. It's understandable that you want your kids to
| have a great experience growing up and develop fond memories of
| their childhood like you were able to do.
|
| Rather than trying to find something that replicates your
| childhood memories for them, why let them find those themselves?
| I'm sure your parents brought a computer into the house, but was
| that so that you could have the same childhood experience growing
| up with computers like they had? For them that computer was
| probably just a tool, for you it end up becoming a world. Or
| maybe your parents brought that computer into house because they
| thought it might become important to be exposed to.
|
| I would suggest that you expose your kids to things like science,
| art, technology and engineering (high level) and let them decide
| what they find interesting, what clicks with them. Then all you
| have to do is support them where you can.
| ochrist wrote:
| Well, apart from RPI - that has already been mentioned - you
| could look at the BBC microbit: https://microbit.org/
| mmoskal wrote:
| For the game angle https://arcade.makecode.com may be more of a
| fit. You can even build a cabinet.
|
| Disclaimer: worked on both.
| jl6 wrote:
| I don't think this experience is available any more.
|
| The missing ingredient is not the technology, but the
| motivation/reward.
|
| In the 80s/early 90s, fiddling with that system setup earned you
| an interactive audiovisual experience that you simply couldn't
| get anywhere else, not even on TV.
|
| Today, there is very little that kids haven't already seen on
| YouTube, or that can't be played at the click of a button.
|
| It was an era of constraint that has now passed, and isn't coming
| back.
| f1shy wrote:
| This is true. But note that is the case for anything, not only
| learning about computers. Accepting this as the status quo
| means accepting our kids to be amoebas. But must not be the
| like that, youtube can also inspire to do things, like sport,
| or also learning about computers. I have good examples around
| me. Guidance is everything.
| [deleted]
| galfarragem wrote:
| Hacking drones is still on early days with lots of low hanging
| fruit if you have time and nothing else to think about.
| However, it is an order of magnitude more dangerous than PCs
| were back in the 80s and parents may resist the idea.
|
| In the 80s playing with software was more relevant than with
| hardware. Nowadays I believe it's the opposite, trades were
| abandoned and are an huge oportunity.
| esbeeb wrote:
| Self-hosting anything and everything (on one's LAN) is a domain
| with lots of "Wild West" still in it.
|
| No two people will set it up quite the same.
| talkingtab wrote:
| A Rasberry Pi. The number of things you can do with these cheap
| computers is astronomical. You can have a Debian Linux computer
| and then learn networking, programming, run your own small
| website. Then start on hardware. Connect up various hardware
| devices, maybe starting with just a fan. Turn on. Turn off. A
| second monitor, larger disks. Webrtc. On an on.
|
| You never know what kinds of things kids will like. They may like
| building a website. Or getting the fan to turn. Or setting the
| prompt to "hey dude?".
|
| My own experience is that kids like to _do_ things - to see some
| result. They don 't get much of that these days, so anything to
| encourage that vs being a clickbait consumer is good.
|
| As for games, there were old Freddy Fish, Monkey Island games.
| Putt-putt does whatever was a favorite. I have not run retro-pi
| or whatever but I think many of those things are still available.
| Grimburger wrote:
| A pi by itself, eh I don't know.
|
| A pi + a full kit like breadboard/cables, LCD/LED display
| panels, camera, microphone/speaker, air sensors, IR sensors,
| gyros, etc. Now that's got a chance.
|
| It's certainly not going to be for all kids but for those with
| an inquisitive mind once you set them up and show how to
| display output in various ways they will start to see the
| potential. From there you can move onto basic rc hobbyist stuff
| which is more accessible than ever. Buy some cheap brushless
| motors, wheels and a frame online, make the pi follow you
| around by sound only.
| glimshe wrote:
| The Raspberry Pi 400 is the closest thing you can get to,
| let's say, ZX Spectrum.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| Scratch is a gentle introduction to programming, aimed mainly at
| young children. I taught it to a range of children and all of
| them were able to create a simple game in under an hour.
| mksybr wrote:
| Browser Developer Tools -- a javascript REPL and a familiar
| environment (any website)
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Definitely. Javascript is absolutely the modern analogue of
| '80s BASIC. Comes built-in to the computer/browser with no need
| to install anything, interpreted language with no need for any
| kind of toolchain, emphasizes ease of use (even when that comes
| at a detriment to things that language purists like -- e.g.,
| strong typing), has metric tons of example code to do all kinds
| of cool things...
| [deleted]
| tshirttime wrote:
| Unplug the computer from the internet, hand the kid a UNIX
| manual, and suck all joy from computing.
|
| Having a working browser teach you programming is like having an
| android in the form of Kelly LeBrock teach you robotics. You're
| gonna want to do things to it that engage your little brain.
| vcg3rd wrote:
| You're dating yourself with the LeBrock analogy! But it dates
| me too. I was too old to care about "Wierd Science" (was it?)
| but "Woman in Red"??? Good times!
| bannedbybros wrote:
| [dead]
| em500 wrote:
| There is no a modern day equivalent. Not because of availibility
| of hardware or software (both better hardware and better software
| are widely available at trivial costs nowadays), but because the
| world around us has changed. Specifically, the experience needs
| to compete against the limitless other distractions from the
| internet.
|
| Here's a simple simulation of the 1980s experience:
| https://virtualconsoles.com/online-emulators/c64/ If your kid is
| like most kids, they might spend 20s on this before they get back
| to their Youtube/TikTok/Instagram/Roblox fix. Or maybe a few
| hours at best if there's a very enthusiastic adult sitting next
| to them explaining everything. But they'll probably be back at
| their regular internet distraction as soon as the adult is gone.
|
| For a decent recreation of the 1980s experience, you'd need to
| shut the kids off from the internet for some extended period. But
| even that is only an approximation, if they have any contact with
| other kids.
| Taikonerd wrote:
| This, unfortunately, is the truth.
|
| But that begs the question: what _are_ 11-year-old computer
| nerds doing now? Modding games? Building complicated machines
| in Minecraft?
| f1shy wrote:
| There are lots of things to do. Lots of programming things
| mixed with other domains like music. Just one example:
| https://sonic-pi.net/tutorial.html There are tones of SBC,
| plus arduino. Calliope and others. Scratch for little kids,
| lego mindstorms. I know boys between 11 and 13 learning
| Python, programming some simple games. There are also lots of
| robots and HW. What there is not (or I do not know it) is
| something like the microcomputer of the 80s. That is a little
| computer which can do graphics, sound, little games, and even
| control peripherals with a very simple language. I would
| really have something like that.
| boringg wrote:
| Robotics is my guess
| candiodari wrote:
| Exactly, this means we are living in a very weird period in
| history. Right now there are people who know a lot about
| computers, for the sake of "they looked cool in the 80s/90s".
| People born in the 70s and 80s are ~5-15 years removed from
| pension or disappearing from the workforce. Already there are
| no 20 year old and few 30 year old geeks.
|
| 3% of us are disappearing every year. And that's just not going
| to stop.
| xwdv wrote:
| Minecraft, you can build a whole computer in there from base
| principles. Kids as young as 11 do it.
| ianseyler wrote:
| Kano - https://kano.tech/us/original
|
| Looks like their website has changed around. They used to have a
| kit that came with a raspberry pi (that you had to assemble
| yourself) and their own Linux-based OS that taught you about
| computers and the command line
|
| https://github.com/KanoComputing/kano-desktop
| https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/kano-computer-kit-touch...
| SuperHeavy256 wrote:
| Their website redesign is so unintuitive.
| ianseyler wrote:
| Agreed. Not sure what the status of the company is either.
| Their GitHub repos have been quiet for years.
| Projectiboga wrote:
| They ripped us off w a Kickstarter, three things first two
| came the supposed synth that they had Nile Rodgers pitch
| never shipped and they pivoted to their kid's software
| basically being a Windows app.
| Projectiboga wrote:
| It's still there, based on Raspberry Pi 3. The newer models are
| Intel based w Windows 10s. I'd preorder a Pi 5 and do a project
| w the kid where you source the pi, case, screen, get an old
| laptop or two a old router and set up a network lab.
| stef_841 wrote:
| Python with its Python shell - We - my 10 year old and I - are
| using Thonny as an editor. Just start the Phython editor an it's
| ,,all inside the box". Closest to switch on a C64 from my days
| but in a modern world. Loading games, executing commands, running
| programs.
| beardyw wrote:
| Whilst I understand the nostalgia, I think it's easy to forget
| that these things were modern and exciting - not so much today. I
| suggest you take what is here today and use it.
|
| If it were me (and it may soon be) I would get them to make a
| static (ie with no backend processing) web page. It is easy and
| can be free to publish it. The basic page can then be enhanced
| with interaction using scripting almost without limits.
|
| The child can show it off to anyone with a screen. You can
| control the publishing since it can be built offline.
|
| And before you say JavaScript is terrible, so is Basic!
|
| This is the modern equivalent to what you remember.
| vcg3rd wrote:
| Maybe set them up at NeoCities, depending on age, but could
| also move into CGI and RSS with this. I may be way off, but I
| feel like CGI could be a bridge between markup and programming.
|
| My sparse knowledge of CGI dates to the 90s, and
| IANAP(rogrammer).
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| Raspberry Pi 400 perhaps?
|
| https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/raspberry-pi-400/
|
| Kind of reminds me of my old Acorn Electron.
| boringg wrote:
| Thats really interesting and it takes some of the config
| overhead out of the equation for younger kids but still keeps
| some of the technical.
| mfa1999 wrote:
| How about these? [1] Build in the spirit of the 80s home
| computers and with options of 8/16/32 bit (6502 and 680x0) and an
| active community.
|
| [1] https://c256foenix.com/
| Taikonerd wrote:
| Most people are posting links to hardware, but in my mind, this
| is a software question. Maybe one of those BASIC interpreters
| with an integrated IDE, the way that QBASIC used to be on older
| Windows versions?
|
| QB64 is the modern equivalent: https://qb64.com/
|
| Your kids won't literally need to navigate the command line to
| launch the games. But I think that editing config files to "hack"
| the game is still on the table :-)
|
| EDIT: also https://www.endbasic.dev/, which jmmv posted below.
| Taikonerd wrote:
| Responding to my own comment: maybe it _does_ have to be
| separate hardware. If your kid is programming on the same
| computer they use for _Fortnight_ , then whenever they lose
| momentum and get discouraged, they're going to be tempted to
| switch over and play a nice shiny AAA game instead. Or hop on
| social media, etc. Modern computers just have too many
| distractions at hand.
|
| Having a separate computer just for the lo-fi programming
| environment won't fully prevent that, but at least it's a minor
| roadblock.
| f1shy wrote:
| I think it has to be a different HW. Iroamed a lot about it,
| and have your same conclusion. To your parent comment, yes.
| Is about SW. And the problem I see, ist that today we have
| super conputers with studio level audio, and cinema quality
| video. But programing anything other than a "hello world" or
| basic text application, is so difficult and complex, that no
| average kid will endeavor such a trip. Frameworks,
| Libraries... full of rabbit-holes that I do not dare to enter
| being a professional programmer. We need some simple language
| that allows to bild interesting things relatively easy...
| like endbasic in other comments.
| browningstreet wrote:
| Minecraft
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