[HN Gopher] AdaCore Announces Gnat Pro for Rust
___________________________________________________________________
AdaCore Announces Gnat Pro for Rust
Author : pjmlp
Score : 70 points
Date : 2023-09-30 20:16 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.adacore.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.adacore.com)
| [deleted]
| codetrotter wrote:
| Sounds awesome! Too bad that it probably costs 10s of thousands
| of dollars for a license or more. Judging from the fact that you
| have to contact sales before they will even tell you :/
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| I once asked why there was a POA in the Ferrari brochure (not
| that I could afford one ever).
| Veserv wrote:
| Is 12 junior dev-days a lot of money for a software development
| tool? A single junior dev costs 20x as much per year. Is having
| 5% more junior devs on your team better than better tooling for
| the other 95% of the team?
|
| I can see how it might be a impediment for tinkering and
| hobbyists, but it is a pittance for any commercial usage.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Where are 12 junior dev days worth more then 20k? Not even in
| silicon valley salaries are that insane.
|
| Relying on proprietary technology is in itself a pretty large
| risk regardless of the monetary cost.
| pjmlp wrote:
| In countries where seniors cost 100+ EUR/$ per hour in
| project costs.
|
| Do the monthly math for respective FTE costs.
| rowanG077 wrote:
| How does the cost of a senior factor into it? This is
| about junior cost.
|
| Besides even at 100+ EUR/$ per hour you don't come close
| to 20k after 12 days.
| pjmlp wrote:
| It was to make a measurement point, it comes to 9600,
| with some typical rounding adjustments as buffer, 10 000.
|
| Which is half of it, although in projects where Oracle
| licences are rounding errors, I expect much higher rates.
| coryrc wrote:
| Employee total burden is about double their take-home
| pay, so 2 x $100 x 8 x 12 is $19200.
| Veserv wrote:
| I was using 10 K$ as the baseline.
|
| Junior devs make 100-200 K$/yr in salary. The fully
| burdened cost including overhead and benefits is usually
| around double that at around 200-300 K$ (higher base
| compensation usually results in lower proportional
| overhead). In the US there are ~2000 working hours a year,
| so that amounts to 100-150 $/hr.
|
| There are 8 hours per dev-day, so 96 dev-hours. At 100-150
| $/hr that is 9600-14400 $.
|
| If you are really obstinate about 20 K$, then just double
| it and call it 25 junior-dev days. Whoopie, still only 10%
| of the yearly cost of a junior-dev. Yeah, developers are
| really expensive. So back to the original question, just
| minimally changed to account for irrelevant factors of two.
|
| Do you think having 10% more junior devs on your team is
| better than having better tooling for the other 90% of the
| team?
| rowanG077 wrote:
| Well then you are still looking at silicon valley level
| of salaries. The top of the top of the world.
|
| Let's take The Netherlands, where I live. A junior dev is
| expected to make EUR34,422/year. This is still a western
| country so let's go somewhere else. In China a junior dev
| makes about Y=269,904 a year, or $1.806,89. Is this tool
| worth 5+ man years of a junior dev? If your back of the
| envelope calculations only barely make sense for a tiny
| part of the world maybe the pricing is actually insane.
|
| edit: Y=269,904 is $37.002. Point still stands.
|
| > Do you think having 10% more junior devs on your team
| is better than having better tooling for the other 90% of
| the team?
|
| The tool would have to be pretty damn good. And also not
| introduce business risk or at the very least a minimal
| business risk.
| khuey wrote:
| > In China a junior dev makes about Y=269,904 a year, or
| $1.806,89. Is this tool worth 5+ man years of a junior
| dev?
|
| Try doing the currency conversion from Yuan to Dollars
| and not from Yen to Dollars.
| bsder wrote:
| I no longer do proprietary licenses when my ass is on the
| line.
|
| With a proprietary license, you are one set of legal filings
| away from having the rug pulled out from under you.
|
| See: the Our Machinery fiasco.
| https://www.rfleury.com/p/ships-icebergs-game-engines
|
| Or perhaps I should have linked to all the gnashing of teeth
| about Unity
| Agingcoder wrote:
| I'm not sure about this specific contract, but historically
| speaking, Adacore has sold support contracts, and even if
| you stop paying, you're still allowed to use the compiler
| versions you've paid for. Furthermore, since these
| compilers are all based on upstream, and all Adacore work
| eventually ends up upstream, there's essentially no risk
| you're going to be left stranded.
| Xylakant wrote:
| You won't get around fees paid in the certified compiler
| world. If you want someone to sign, stamp and deliver
| paperwork proving that a compiler upholds a standard and
| likely also take liability for it, you'll need to pay. Few
| organizations will take on liability for free.
|
| But you can get pretty close, at least in some spaces.
| Self-certification is always an option. Aerospace will be
| harder, automotive is annoying but feasible.
|
| Ferrocene for one is entirely 100% compatible with the
| equivalent rust compiler, in fact it is the rust compiler
| built, qualify-tested, packages and delivered without any
| significant (1) patches. As such, it's entirely feasible to
| use "I'll just use open source rustc" as an escape hatch.
| Not a pretty one, self certification is quite a bit of
| effort, but a bounded one. There's no magic in what we did,
| most of it is legwork.
|
| We even open sourced the spec that the certification is
| based on, so you'll have to do less legwork than we did.
|
| This has in fact been a design goal and a requirement of
| our early customers.
|
| I can't speak to Adacores plans regarding upstream
| compatibility, I have no insight other than their public
| statements and they've been silent on that matter.
|
| (1) a few lines, mostly target support for stuff rustc
| doesn't offer in tree
|
| Disclosure: I'm one of the founders of Ferrous.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| So I guess I'm not clear about this -- have they implemented a
| fresh new compiler that runs on the GNAT toolchain? Or is this a
| stable/certified fork of the existing Rust LLVM-based toolchain
| with a GNAT branding overtop of it? Or something inbetween? What
| about associated tools like Cargo? Rustanalyzer, Rustfmt, etc.?
| What version of Rust do they currently target? What about 3rd
| party crates support etc?
|
| FWIW I work professionally in a space which is likely one of
| their target markets (autonomous/precision agriculture) on a
| system in Rust (and C++). I skimmed through the pages but didn't
| find a technical explanation of what they're offering.
| jiehong wrote:
| > GNAT Pro for Rust is currently in early-access for select
| customers and provides a compiler (rustc), a build and package
| manager (cargo), and a debugger (gdb) for x86_64 Linux and
| Linux cross targets.
| doomrobo wrote:
| What is GNAT? Is there an example? Code? Screenshots?
| rekado wrote:
| https://www.gnu.org/software/gnat/
| the_duke wrote:
| See also the Ferrous Systems announcement about AdaCore leaving
| their previous Rust partnership :
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37711274
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2023-09-30 23:00 UTC)