[HN Gopher] Every single Onewheel is being recalled after four d...
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Every single Onewheel is being recalled after four deaths
Author : scrose
Score : 246 points
Date : 2023-09-30 16:31 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
| furyofantares wrote:
| Mine is rotting in my garage. I couldn't sell it or give it away
| given what I know about it.
|
| $100 credit for a new board - no thanks. I'm not giving these
| assholes another cent and I don't want anything they've touched
| anyway. Resisting the recall is a full and likely permanent
| breach of trust.
| Relys wrote:
| First of all, fuck Future Motion on the C&D for REWheel. Also why
| haven't they still haven't patched the security vulnerability of
| hardcoded AES key in their devices? REWheel was specifically
| architected so that it did not share any IP, and they came in and
| bullied Nish under an archaic clause in the DMCA that's being
| hotly contested in R2R. The VESC implementation was Whitebox
| reverse engineered and none of the coders (Mitch, Dado, Nico)
| ever even looked at any FM binary. All REWheel was trying to do
| was let users repair their BMS's and re level their boards for
| aftermarket rails as well as provide safety features so that
| boards didn't drop users.
|
| Besides this recall, here are all the other issues with their
| boards: 1) BMS discharge protection shutting off board instead of
| pushback/buzzer. 2) Wires breaking in cable harness leading to
| BMS communication drop shutting off board during mid ride (my
| friends have broken bones on the XR because of this). 3) Pint X
| Balance cable pinching 4) GT motor connector coming loose during
| midride leading to board cut off. 5) Lack of locktite in
| controller box screws and nuts (common for power button nut to
| come loose and short controller in Pint) 6) Lack of proper
| waterproofing in controller and battery box (should put silicone
| sealant around connector ports internally and externally) 7)
| Water getting into Pint motor connector causing short (should put
| dielectric grease on all connectors) 8) Underspeced charging
| connector on Pint PCB for hypercharger leading to arcing and
| damage. 9) Unknown reproducible GT shutoff over certain bridges
| on later hardware revisions. My theory is that you swapped out
| IMU because of chip shortage and didn't validate high pass
| filters properly. Either that or GT motor connector looseness
| issue. I can go ride one of my friends GT and make it shutoff
| right now if I wanted to by riding over certain bridges! It's
| insane! 10) Underspeced mosfets on controller leading to lack of
| torque and recovery in nosedive situations. My VESC Pint beats
| the GT on hill climbs. 11) GT axel weakness leading to breakage.
| 12) Powder coating on GT rails leading to overheating 13) Lack of
| proper coolant (like statoraid) in GT Hypercore hub leading to
| overheating. 14) Reverse polarity on XT-60 connections (this is
| just evil)
|
| The above design flaws have lead to multiple injuries and broken
| bones in Future Motion devices that I have mitigated in all of my
| VESC boards I have built for myself and the people I love and
| don't want to see get hurt.
|
| OneWheels are great devices. I myself have close to 10K miles on
| them. I have felt infinitely safer after I started converting my
| own to VESC boards, removing the discharge path on the BMS (so it
| couldn't power off the board unexpectedly) and disabling moving
| faults (so it couldn't drop the user due to a failed footpad).
| This has been achieved by swapping out both the BMS and ESC to
| open source, aftermarket solutions.
| liminalsunset wrote:
| > All REWheel was trying to do was let users repair their BMS's
| and re level their boards for aftermarket rails as well as
| provide safety features so that boards didn't drop users.
|
| I think there's a useful discussion to be had about the
| reasoning behind things like this. This is definitely going to
| be a bit of a devil's advocate thing but it brings up a much
| needed discussion.
|
| One of the often cited reasons for limiting third party access
| to firmware and repair is that unauthorized repair could
| potentially compromise the safety, security or reliability of
| the device (or at least void the certification), and the
| manufacturer would still have its brand on the product and the
| user would not blame the third party if something broke, but
| rather the manufacturer. This was supposedly behind the reasons
| why Tesla doesn't like repair, because they _really_ didn 't
| want news about battery fires.
|
| Obviously, in this particular case the safety characteristics
| of the original product, as you note, are terrible to begin
| with, so any competent third party is more likely to increase
| the safety than not.
|
| But say, for example, that the OneWheel was designed with a
| proper engineering process. Say, for example, the ESC and
| powertrain was held to ASIL-D standards and the battery pack
| was UL 2271 [the standard for light electric vehicles
| batteries] certified - both are entirely reasonable standards
| to expect this equipment to be certified to (ASIL-D is a common
| standard for things like Power Steering modules in cars, which
| have to be robust because any failure could result in full lock
| to lock torque overpowering the driver at highway speed - also
| a system involving servo control and brushless motors.)
|
| Such a system would involve a very significant design and
| verification effort to catch edge cases. Things like your wires
| breaking scenario would need to be analyzed as part of the
| design - can the design fail in a safe way when certain
| failures are encountered, up to and including redundancy.
| Things like waterproofing, as you mention, need to be tested to
| IP rating standards - probably at the very least IP66 for the
| whole device given where people use these devices.
|
| > swapped out IMU because of chip shortage and didn't validate
| high pass filters properly
|
| This wouldn't have been allowed in a certified product. When
| you change materials or components in a certified product, you
| have to redo the validation and certification process.
| Otherwise the certification is worthless.
|
| *Now, given these conditions, would allowing third parties to
| easily replace components with random ones potentially
| compromise safety?*
|
| > removing the discharge path on the BMS (so it couldn't power
| off the board unexpectedly)
|
| This one, for example, IMO, is questionable. I would argue that
| it does reduce safety, and given the original DRM, this is what
| they are trying to prevent. Clearly, some level of
| certification was achieved for the original battery pack
| (UN38.3, mandatory to transport), and they don't want this
| modification to happen.
|
| Given the rising dangers of battery fires and explosions, I
| believe that BMS system integrity has never been more
| important, as these devices have a MUCH greater risk exposure
| (24/7 potentially) and to a much greater population (anyone
| living in a building with at least one of these devices in it).
| Even big players like the Tesla Megapack have fire problems,
| and that's with a proper safety management design. Let's say,
| for example, a MLCC on your ESC fails, cascading into an arc
| fault involving the PCB, carbonizing and fusing the copper
| layers together (there are examples of this happening on even
| lower power designs). Without a discharge path, the battery and
| the device will now need to convert 1 kWh of power into heat
| over about 5 minutes. This is going to set the carpet on fire.
|
| Under UL 2271, and actually under all of the UL standards for
| batteries if I remember correctly, you need to pass all of the
| safety tests for the battery with one set of safety devices not
| otherwise certified (i.e. mosfets as opposed to UL rated
| battery fuses) "faulted", which means that commercial batteries
| like the Segway Ninebot scooter batteries are usually fitted
| with multiple layers of MOSFETs and cell protection ICs. Of
| course in this particular situation, you don't want the battery
| to cut off too quickly. And thus, this would call for specific
| and deliberate engineering to design a solution that will
| protect against both sudden failure and fire.
|
| Looking to the broader system, the VESC system proposed as a
| replacement for the original controller is likely more robust
| in actual usage, but I don't personally think it's a direct
| alternative to a properly designed first party solution. VESC
| hardware is largely a DIY-grade prototype hardware and
| software, which, while functional, I don't consider (and they
| explicitly claim) is not safety critical. I kind of did wish
| for a while that they would actually attempt to build such a
| system, because it would have been nice to have an open source
| solution with a safety-grade lockstep microcontroller,
| redundant power paths and whatnot, etc, but after spending some
| time in that community it seems that the thrill of danger is
| part of their idea of fun, so I'm not holding my breath
| waiting.
|
| This brings me to I suppose what my actual point is.
|
| I think that in some cases, software locks that attempt to
| prevent the unsafe modification of certified and safety
| critical systems are acceptable. I think that instead of
| disabling functionality, the app should just pop up a warning
| that the system has been modified. This is what Google does
| with bootloader unlocking and what Apple does with their
| "important display/battery/camera message" notifications, or
| what Samsung does with Knox. I'm not opposed to these types of
| schemes because the lifespan of a $2000+ device is likely to be
| very long, and it's important for downstream users to be aware
| of the modifications that have been done, and for the
| manufacturer to be able to say "hey, this is modified, the
| certification is void, it's your problem now" when it
| inevitably turns into an accident.
|
| I do, on the other hand, believe that it is valuable to allow
| users to prototype and develop on hardware they own. This is
| why I propose that the software locks do not disable
| functionality entirely. I also think that by replacing all, or
| a significant amount of the internal components of your device,
| it is no longer a OneWheel, it is your own creation, and as
| such, the manufacturer should not, and (tbh already cannot)
| restrict what you do with it. I'm okay with the manufacturer
| requiring that its trademarks and the certification marks be
| removed as well.
|
| I think that a robust framework where manufacturers can prove
| that they are doing what is necessary to make these devices
| safe is extremely important especially as this is an emerging
| market. We are already seeing anti-PEV regulation in various
| markets, with these devices being technically illegal where I'm
| from, and NYC banning some PEV batteries (?). If these
| transportation devices are to become popular and accepted and
| eventually legalized, something has to be done, both from the
| DIY side (to promote actual and demonstrable safety) and from
| the manufacturer side (to certify their products and deliver
| products with a track record of safety). Otherwise, I think
| eventually the burden on these devices will eventually push
| them out of the market.
| catchARide69 wrote:
| Woah back up.
|
| I live in the middle of the abyss where there is no traffic (or
| people), but instead rolling fields for miles and miles. If I
| fall, then I'm falling into dirt and grass.
|
| People ride these things around cities? That's literally crazy!
| Don't you guys know that cars were invented to keep you safe
| inside when you crash at 20MPH!?!? Let alone 75MPH. This device
| has no business being a commuter vehicle in crowded spaces.
| Bicycles and motorcycles are acceptable because they have big
| wheels which provide stability via the gyroscopic effect.
|
| That being said, please post links related to freeing the
| boards of binary blobs: I need a new rural outdoor pastime, and
| with all this negative press, there's bound to be plenty of
| vectors on eBay and craigslist soon....this looks super fun.
|
| If you ask me, this is a great device but adapted by the wrong
| audience. This is supposed to be out there with the off-road,
| back country BMX and dirt bike crowd -- imagine downhill off-
| road long boarding.
|
| You know, the crowd who would mock that anybody ever died on
| one of these going 19MPH, until enlightened they probably
| cracked their head open on a cement curb.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| > they have big wheels which provide stability via the
| gyroscopic effect
|
| The gyroscopic effect is negligible on a bicycle and it isn't
| even what provides stability to it (it's mostly the front
| fork and steering geometry). It's more noticeable on a
| motorbike at highway speeds, but it still doesn't act on it
| in an entirely desirable way.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_dynam.
| ..
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| As if hitting your head in a tree or rocky path can't kill
| you. Isn't "off road" usually a higher bar for say a car or
| bicycle than using them on the road?
| shkkmo wrote:
| Notably the update they just pushed related to the recall
| breaks Rewheel and nRF and tries to further lock the board down
| against users installing their own software.
|
| I suspect this is part of why do many boards ate being bricked
| by the update.
| serf wrote:
| >14) Reverse polarity on XT-60 connections (this is just evil)
|
| yeah that's pretty scummy.
| btbuildem wrote:
| I've never trusted the design of that thing -- not even to get on
| it once. It's just so.. dumb. It doesn't have a failsafe mode. At
| least put some small wheels / rollers on the leading edge so when
| it inevitably nosedives, it wouldn't dig in. Terrible design.
|
| I ride an electric skateboard (boosted stealth) -- it makes sense
| to me. If the battery runs out, or if it loses connection to the
| remote, it turns into a dumb, heavy skateboard. When it fails
| mechanically (snapped belts, burned out motors), it turns into a
| dumb skateboard. You can carve to lose speed, you can drag your
| foot to slow down, you can even slide it like a regular
| longboard.
|
| Even with all that, I sometimes imagine what could happen if the
| software glitched and cranked the throttle 100% forward or back -
| makes my skin crawl. Luckily I've never heard of that happening
| with any of their boards in however many years.
|
| All that said, I think these types of "last mile" small-scale
| mobility devices are a very good way to help people decouple from
| cars, make transit more accessible, and generally take back
| street space from the monoculture of heavy, dangerous, energy-
| intensive vehicles.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > I sometimes imagine what could happen if the software
| glitched and cranked the throttle 100% forward or back
|
| This has happened to cars too.
|
| > take back street space from the monoculture of heavy,
| dangerous, energy-intensive vehicles.
|
| This is crucial I think, we need to be able to get from A to B
| free from a risk of getting flattened by a 40 ton truck
| skymast wrote:
| [dead]
| rich_sasha wrote:
| Some very good points here. What happens to a Segway when it
| runs out of battery?
| c22 wrote:
| The Segway has redundant control circuitry, motor windings,
| and battery. If there is a failure of any of these I believe
| it will fault and perform a controlled stop.
| MBCook wrote:
| One of the reasons the Segway was so expensive is they built
| it like medical devices, with tons of redundancies in its
| systems for this exact reason. So if one computer glitched
| out it wouldn't just chuck its passenger head over heels.
|
| As we know, once hoverboards got really popular the cheap
| ones (perhaps most?) were NOT built that way. I saw someone
| nearly faceplant when theirs ran out of battery and stopped
| on a dime.
| yebyen wrote:
| My ninebot scooter (maybe not what you're asking, but it's a
| Segway product) slows down until it can't carry you anymore.
| First it just can no longer achieve the maximum velocity,
| then soon it can no longer reach standard speed, and then
| you're limping along at 4mph and you can no longer climb any
| grade without pushing. Finally you're pushing.
|
| It's not particularly usable as a scooter without the
| battery.
| bombcar wrote:
| Since we've not heard stories of it being involved in deaths
| I assume that the battery stops providing propulsion score it
| stops providing gyro. (And depending on how the gyro is
| designed it might keep spinning long enough for it to slow
| down and stop.)
| alas44 wrote:
| Ironically false, former Segway company owner died on his
| Segway https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jimi_Hese
| lden#Dea...
| bombcar wrote:
| But "backed his Segway off a cliff" is very different
| from Segway bucked him into the concrete.
| capableweb wrote:
| > What happens to a Segway when it runs out of battery?
|
| A Segway needs electricity to balance itself, so my guess is
| that when it gets close to running out of battery, it stops
| by itself and refuses to continue.
| coryrc wrote:
| Though they have failed in the same manner as the Onewheel,
| but less often and their top speed is lower IIRC.
| MBCook wrote:
| I'd be willing to bet they limited their speed then
| stopped before the battery fully ran out to prevent this
| exact situation.
| coryrc wrote:
| From trading the other comments, it seems the Onewheel is
| just glitchy. They certainly must also have a low-battery
| cutoff, but I bet it's not accurate in all ranges of
| temperature and with aged batteries.
| letrowekwel wrote:
| These devices do have their value, but most users would be
| better off cycling or walking. From public health point of view
| replacing cars with these is only a minor improvement.
| [deleted]
| denton-scratch wrote:
| Yikes! That thing looks intrinsically dangerous, whether or not
| it's used within "limits".
| ecf wrote:
| [flagged]
| saulrh wrote:
| Perhaps they're trying to impress upon the population that
| wearing a helmet is an incredibly good idea, literally a
| lifesaver?
| davidw wrote:
| The actual statistics say that the real lifesaver is keeping
| the deadly vehicles away from cyclists and pedestrians:
|
| https://usa.streetsblog.org/2016/06/02/why-helmets-arent-
| the...
|
| I mean, go ahead, wear one, they aren't going to _hurt_ for
| sure, and probably make a lot of sense at an individual
| level, but at a macro, systemic level, helmet wearing is not
| really the answer.
| mcpackieh wrote:
| > _I mean, go ahead, wear one, they aren 't going to hurt
| for sure_
|
| Is "they don't hurt" really the best you'll say in defense
| of helmets?
|
| Correct me if I'm way off the mark, but from what I
| understand the argument against _mandatory helmet laws_
| goes something like this: Helmets aren 't
| stylish/comfortable/convenient, therefore people don't like
| to wear them, therefore people are less inclined to bike if
| doing so would require a helmet, therefore people are more
| likely to die from being fat or in a car accident.
|
| This argument seems rational to me. It may or may not be
| correct, the devil is in the numbers, but at the very least
| there's a rational chain of argument here. Let's suppose
| that argument is correct, the rational response is to
| simultaneously oppose mandatory helmet laws _and wear a
| helmet anyway_. Helmets break so your skull doesn 't, on an
| individual basis you are safer if you choose to wear a
| helmet. Helmets aren't designed to solve "macro, systemic"
| problems with society, they address the problem of _you_
| getting _your_ skull cracked open and they do that very
| effectively. You should be willing to admit that wearing a
| helmet not only doesn 't hurt, it absolutely helps you. If
| you're not willing to concede that helmets help on an
| individual level even if systemic social issues remain,
| that's madness.
|
| I see room for debate over the value of mandatory helmet
| laws, but there's no rational debate about helmets on an
| individual level. Biking with a helmet is safer than biking
| without one.
| evilduck wrote:
| They also report on people who die in accidents who weren't
| wearing seat belts or when kids aren't secured in car seats, or
| when people hop barriers and try to walk across 10 lane
| highways at night and then get smeared by a semi.
|
| This isn't some pro-car blame shifting conspiracy to report on
| how someone died unnecessarily when easy safety measures are
| available or were bypassed. The car driver can still be at
| fault for the accident, but the pedestrian/cyclist/one-
| wheeler/whatever can still assume risk exists when near traffic
| and take easy and reasonable precautions. I wear a helmet when
| riding on bike paths away from cars because you can still get
| bumped or make a mistake or have mechanical failures and fall
| and die if you hit your head wrong.
| catiopatio wrote:
| Why do you take umbrage with a such a relevant fact being
| disclosed?
|
| Helmets save lives, and isn't it literally their job to inform
| us of such facts?
| ecf wrote:
| There's a time and a place for discussing the merits of
| helmet usage. An article about a recall of 300,000+ devices
| should have the article be centered around the safety of the
| device, not about how a company's negligence would have been
| fine if the people wore a helmet.
|
| In my eyes, it's the same as a journalist talking about how a
| sexual assault victim wouldn't have been assaulted if they
| simply hadn't gotten drunk that night.
| catiopatio wrote:
| [flagged]
| ecf wrote:
| [flagged]
| floren wrote:
| There is an extremely vocal segment of cylists who argue that
| actually, a helmet never saved anyone and if there were no
| cars at all, no cyclist would ever die.
| mutex_man wrote:
| That is a very dumb segment.
| catiopatio wrote:
| As someone who has been saved from more serious injury by a
| helmet more than once ... that's flat-earth levels of
| delusion.
| dexwiz wrote:
| Dumbest take out there. My worst accident on a bike was
| with another cyclist.
| karaterobot wrote:
| > I see it all the time when cyclists are hit by cars and they
| want to blame the death on not wearing a helmet instead of the
| person who actually caused the killing, the driver.
|
| If someone died in a car accident, would you consider it
| relevant if they were wearing their seatbelt or not?
| addicted wrote:
| Can you point to the evidence that a bicyclist being hit by a
| car benefits from wearing a helmet.
|
| Also, the exact same logic applies when a pedestrian is hit
| by a car. How many articles do you see where an article about
| a pedestrian being hit by a car talks about the pedestrian
| not wearing a helmet.
|
| Why not?
| tony69 wrote:
| It's not about blaming the victim. It's about getting the
| simple true message out there that wearing a helmet when riding
| vehicles can save your life.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| I'm more astounded by how many people ride bikes etc without
| wearing one, and the logical hoops they jump through to justify
| it.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| My favorite people misunderstanding statistics & risk
| management was 2020 summer many people biking helmetless in
| unprotected bike lanes while wearing a face mask.
|
| Clearly the risk of catching a viral load outdoors in summer
| at 20mph is multiple orders of magnitude lower than smashing
| your head on cement while moving on a city street..
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I wore my mask on a bike not because I was trying to avoid
| covid, though having arrived at my destination I knew I
| hadn't forgotten it. I wore/wear my mask on my bike because
| it keeps my face warm.
| serf wrote:
| you can take what you will from the whole thing, but masks
| were pretty heavily mandated in a lot of areas where bike
| helmets aren't necessarily.
|
| what I mean to say is that perhaps it wasn't poor risk
| management, just behavior driven by mandatory obeying of
| laws and regulations. no one told them that they need to
| wear a helmet by law, so they didn't.
|
| (please keep in mind that I don't know anything about your
| local regulations, just sort of talking in ambiguous
| terms.)
| browningstreet wrote:
| I was just checking events in the Tahoe area and noticed that
| there's some national off-road one wheel competition coming to
| Sky Tavern above Reno in a bit...
| MivLives wrote:
| I sold my Onewheel because I was seeing more reports of this sort
| of stuff. Personally never experienced it in about 2.5k miles
| ridden. I guess I was lucky. The way I've seen people take drops
| on these things, or modify the electronics can't be good. I've
| honestly wondered if those little front wheels (called Fangs I
| think) would become a standard thing.
| concordDance wrote:
| I do wonder how the danger level compares to scooters or
| bicycles.
| extropy wrote:
| Bicycles fail safe unless a wheel falls off or both brakes fail
| simultaneously.
|
| Balancing onewheelers - if the control or power system fails,
| you immediately go down, hard. And since the cruising position
| is weight shifted forwards, it's 100% nose dive.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| A few years ago, I used to see a middle-aged guy riding one of
| these every single day from his office to his apartment in
| Downtown LA. Then I suddenly stopped seeing him.
|
| According to a street vendor who saw the accident, the guy's
| Onewheel froze up on him riding down Grand Ave from Bunker Hill,
| he went flying, and he suffered severe brain damage. He's been in
| a coma since then, and his family's lawsuit against the
| manufacturer is still working its way through the courts.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| Yeah after seeing one i was tempted. Seems like a great way to
| last mile a commute. Did a little research, reddit sub full of
| people who had been injured being belittled by the regulars.
| Went with an ebike instead.
| [deleted]
| 999900000999 wrote:
| I don't think these should go over 10 miles an hour.
|
| That's the only way to make these safe. At 20 miles an hour it's
| way to easy to lose control
| mnming wrote:
| I sold my onewheel pint a few years back only after 200 miles
| because of a few uncontrollable crashes and nobody believed me
| that this is a dangerous product.
|
| I warned the next buyer but he still bought it, just like me
| before crashes.
|
| But I did convince him to join the Onewheel Crash Club Facebook
| group. For everyone who is interested to know how dangerous this
| is, check that page out.
| shawn-butler wrote:
| You knew it was defective and sold it to someone else? Not sure
| about the ethics on that one
| slowhadoken wrote:
| It's tragic but I'm not shocked.
| jpwerty wrote:
| [dead]
| biggc wrote:
| How is this a recall? It sounds like if you're an early adopter
| all they're offering is a $100 discount on a new one.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| > For the newer Onewheel GT, Onewheel Pint X, Onewheel Pint,
| and Onewheel Plus XR, a software update with a new warning
| system is the remedy.
|
| Recall just means "fix needed". It doesn't necessarily mean
| they all get returned to manufacturers. (I'd have gone through
| half a dozen cars if that was the case.)
| hackernewds wrote:
| The warning system seems insufficient to say the least?
| Usually there's a hardware fix.
| zamadatix wrote:
| I'd say hardware fixes are becoming increasingly less
| common. As more of the ways devices function rely on
| software there is less a need to physically change them to
| correct problems.
| bombcar wrote:
| It seems you're just going to perhaps have to agree that
| the One Wheel may kill you, just like the self driving car
| warnings.
| [deleted]
| perihelions wrote:
| Aside: if anyone's trying to talk someone they care about out of
| purchasing something like this, I suggest tricking them into
| getting a skateboard first. I think that would ground most people
| in reality. Fuck around enough at low speed in less-than-lethal
| environments, you'll get onto a first-name basis with Newtonian
| Physics, and it'll clarify, on a viscerally intuitive level, what
| these types of machines are _really_ about.
|
| The first thought that comes to my mind looking at this device is
| "these are _failure-is-not-an-option_ situations ". There's many
| ways to fall off a skateboard without dying, and to me it's
| _viscerally_ obvious, absolutely none of them will ever apply
| here. You can 't recover onto your feet, because these lithium-
| battery things are like 300% faster than your top sprinting
| speed. You can't fall onto your arms either, because your
| inertial speed is faster than your autonomous reflexes. (You
| learn _all_ about your autonomous reflexes). It 's just your
| face, and skull. This is the first thought that comes to mind:
| there's no way to bail, 0% chance. It's just completely not-an-
| option to fail on such a device at cruising speed. And I'm
| grounded enough to realize, I'm not a person who never fails
| physical feats. That's not what a human is.
| bombcar wrote:
| Think how many times a toddler entertains the carpet with his
| face whilst learning to walk and run - years of training is
| involved in us walking normally.
|
| You need similar training to learn these other devices which
| can operate VERY unexpectedly compared to normal balancing.
| imchillyb wrote:
| A toddler's tiny mass, along with a rubbery and flexible
| body, allow them this luxury. An adult's mass quickly runs
| afoul of the above mentioned physics-gut-check.
| Retric wrote:
| That greatly depends on the surfaces involved and the
| persons skills.
|
| I've fallen off the back of a galloping horse before as an
| overweight 6+ foot guy and been fine, but that frequently
| causes severe injuries. I doubt a one wheel rider is
| dealing with significantly more energetic collisions. They
| are however dealing with the dangers of urban environments.
| donw wrote:
| I'm actually curious how the physics works out on this
| one.
|
| Excess body fat is going to act as additional padding,
| but it's also additional mass going into the collision
| equation.
|
| I wonder where the sweet spot is?
| vGPU wrote:
| I'd wager the primary factor is how you land, whether you
| hit your head, etc. If you land on your buttocks first it
| likely wouldn't be as bad as landing flat on your back
| and striking your head. Although getting that much
| shock/compressive force applied to your spinal cord
| probably isn't great either.
| drekipus wrote:
| Replace body fat with muscle mass and you'll have found
| the sweet spot. Muscles need to protect and hold
| everything together to protect them from shock. They also
| provide more of a barrier.
|
| Body fat is just extra weight, it's not going to hold up
| anything.
|
| I'm convinced that Fat is just a tax on the body.
| thot_experiment wrote:
| The gamut of human capability when crashing vehicles is SO
| MUCH larger than most people realize. The average bike
| commuter probably has a much higher chance of injury in a
| solo crash than someone who's skated for decades on a
| onewheel. When I see discussions of safety I rarely see "get
| good at crashing" brought up, but it's such an important
| skill.
|
| When I ride my bike I'm always hopping up curbs at speed,
| doing quick whip skids/ted shreds etc, not just because it's
| fun, but because those are the skills you need to stay alive
| in abnormal situations. It's honestly kind of baffling to me
| that most people don't actively work on expanding their
| safety envelope.
|
| You can get good at crashing, and at avoiding crashes, and
| when you do you can either do the same things safer, or do
| more fun things with the same level of safety. This is why
| Alex Honnold isn't dead (yet).
| 26fingies wrote:
| > The average bike commuter probably has a much higher
| chance of injury in a solo crash than someone who's skated
| for decades on a onewheel
|
| what of the average onewheel commuter?
| Yeul wrote:
| I can ride a bicycle in the Netherlands (haven't crashed
| since I was a child) but you couldn't pay me to ride in
| London.
| KRAKRISMOTT wrote:
| Same thing with electric scooters, they need to have their
| speed limited to that of a bicycle's and with better safety
| software and pothole detection.
| Dwewlyo wrote:
| I have seen a person zipping from the street to the sidewalk
| with like 20-30km/h on one of these.
|
| At that point I would stop explaining the obvious to people.
| zolbrek wrote:
| I had a good laugh with a co-worker a few weeks back when we
| saw a chick wearing sunglasses with her hands deep in her
| hoody pockets riding a similar single-wheeled vehicle at an
| intersection. Looking cool trumps common sense for certain
| personality types.
| thot_experiment wrote:
| These sort of snide remarks are so closed minded, maybe she
| spent a lot of time honing her craft. I can probably ride
| my brakeless track bike in SF traffic with a higher safety
| margin than most people on a normal road bike. Don't
| underestimate human skill.
| avianlyric wrote:
| I know a handful of people that are absolute zealots when
| it comes to One Wheel and electric unicycles, riding all
| kinds of crazy contraptions, and doing so with incredible
| skill. They all still wear helmets and pads, all it takes
| is some wet leaves and you're going to have a really bad
| day.
| WWLink wrote:
| You sound like the people who explain that they're good
| drivers while using instagram on a phone because they
| have a lot of experience driving cars and using phones.
| green-salt wrote:
| I got a Boosted board and basically bought all protective gear
| and did laps around a school find all about said physics before
| using it as a daily last-mile transport. Helmets are so
| important.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| > It's just completely not-an-option to fail on such a device
| at cruising speed.
|
| I recently flew off a normal bicycle because someone spilled
| oil or something in the middle of a roundabout. The helmet has
| a large dent, broke my arm.
|
| I'd need full motorcycle gear before I try a
| monowheel/Onewheel/etc.
| aaronmdjones wrote:
| Make sure you dispose of that helmet properly. They are not
| designed to survive crashes and are considered a consumable
| in such events.
| doctorpangloss wrote:
| > Aside: if anyone's trying to talk someone they care about out
| of purchasing something like this
|
| Hmm... what about "you'll look like a complete doofus?"
| rmbyrro wrote:
| The minimum requirements for such devices is:
|
| - Full face helmet
|
| - Knee and elbow pads
|
| - Wrist protection with a sliding material on the palm of the
| hands
|
| Ideally, you would also wear a body armor.
|
| Neck brace is also desirable, but will not be required in most
| crashes (if you're not doing radical maneuvers).
|
| But if you do happen to get in a crash where a neck brace would
| be required, it can be the difference between walking again or
| never.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| Three of the reported deaths were from head trauma, while
| wearing a helmet.
| poszlem wrote:
| Compare any full face helmet (a motorcycle one for example)
| with whatever people wear for these (or for bicycles) to
| know why that would help.
| rmbyrro wrote:
| Certainly a bike helmet.
|
| 1. Doesn't do a great job protecting the face or the side
| of the head;
|
| 2. Not designed for motorized vehicles, it can't absorb
| enough the kind of forces involved in these incidents.
|
| You need a full face helmet, designed for motorized
| vehicles.
|
| A motorcycle one is great, but probably an overkill (no pun
| intended).
|
| There are good downhill helmets that can do the job well
| enough. Fox and Leatt are trustworthy brands. There are
| other good ones. It should be obvious, but don't trust
| Chinese brands.
| Zetobal wrote:
| While wearing a skate helmet I guess the full helmet meant
| a real integral one.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Video of what nosediving off a one wheel looks like courtesy of
| Adam Savage:
| https://twitter.com/donttrythis/status/1205621915877961729/
|
| Couldn't say if that was a power loss issue or the wheel just
| got too deep in the mud, but doesn't look fun especially if you
| imagine that fall on to concrete.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| And you'll notice that he successfully plants his left foot,
| but momentum just carries him ahead and into the fall and
| roll. And this is a _best case scenario_.
|
| _" The deaths came as a result of head trauma, with at least
| three of the accidents happening with the rider in a
| helmet."_
| rwc wrote:
| Where are you getting that quote? The article seems to
| contradict that:
|
| "Alongside the US Consumer Product Safety Commission
| (CPSC), the company now seeks to remedy the products after
| four known death cases -- three without a helmet -- between
| 2019 and 2021."
| klyrs wrote:
| During my brief stint with longboarding, I found that tumbling
| (as taught in gymnastics, martial arts, parkour, etc) is quite
| useful for a high speed unplanned dismount. That would be
| applicable here too. However, my stint with longboarding was
| brief because less than 100% of crashes led to a successful
| tumble.
| jeffalyanak wrote:
| If you are riding with good posture and awareness it you can
| run out and roll from a one-wheel.
|
| You might not be able fully "run it out" given the speed, but
| every step you take when bailing is a good thing and rolling
| out after you take a few steps will help as well.
|
| At the end of the day, it's obviously going to be more
| dangerous than a bike or a scooter, though. My issues with
| future motion is more to do with their extremely poor
| response to design flaws, though.
|
| I think that riding at more reasonable speeds and riding with
| focus and awareness is still reasonable, but the faults we've
| seen add hidden risks that are difficult to address as a
| rider.
| thot_experiment wrote:
| Wait what? I mean I agree about being able to fractionally
| run it out (I spilled at full speed when i first rode one
| of these and came out mostly fine because of a decade of
| skating) but there's no way that these are more dangerous
| than bikes or scooters. There are way more ways to get
| tangled/impaled (not usually literally, but more ways to
| have crash force concentrated in a smaller area) when
| crashing a bike/scooter.
| avianlyric wrote:
| Scooter I can kind of see the argument for. But bike not
| so much. Assuming we're talking peddle bikes here, then
| they're naturally self stabilising, and capable of far
| heavier breaking than a One Wheel is.
|
| A One Wheel requires quite a lot of active balance from
| the user, a bike requires some balance, but hard
| cornering on a bike, or slamming the breaks on hard don't
| generally result in unplanned dismounts, even with
| amateur bike riders. A One Wheel on the other hand, even
| experienced riders will still end up doing unplanned
| dismounts when performing rapid unexpected manoeuvres
| (such when avoiding another vehicle or pothole).
|
| It's only anecdata, but I've personally never had a
| serious unplanned dismount on a bike (after thousands of
| hours), and includes while mountain biking. I've have had
| a couple of nasty unplanned dismounts on a One Wheel just
| riding around a park. I suspect broader stats (assuming
| anyone's even collected them) would probably find that my
| experiences of each mode of transport is pretty
| representative.
| dharmab wrote:
| I've been on a motorcycle that had the drivetrain cut out
| at 80mph. The bike coasted safely to a stop.
|
| You lose drive power on a one wheel and your biology is
| immediately meeting physics.
| rsync wrote:
| Wait wait ... wait...
|
| You're telling me people were buying and using these without
| knowing how to skateboard first?
|
| I thought every single person I saw using these were, at the
| very least, passable skateboarders ...
| dzdt wrote:
| I have and ride a onewheel but never skateboarded. It really
| is a different balance; one-wheeling hasn't helped me a bit
| for skateboarding skills either.
|
| My take on the safety bit is I would never ride the one-wheel
| at the top speed the device supports, and would never ride
| without a helmet or on a road with traffic. It can and will
| dump you. I've had the battery-out dump (when I knowingly
| experimented after its low power warnings). Basically if you
| go faster than you can run out/step and roll out from you're
| inviting yourself trouble.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Here in Barcelona these things are super common. The riders
| seem to be pretty adept. The problem is more that they don't
| care about pedestrians, they zoom around while on their
| phones on the pavement where they're not allowed and zip
| around pedestrians way too fast.
|
| I don't care if they kill themselves but they're risking
| other people's safety more.
| willk wrote:
| I have a Onewheel XR. Mine took a nosedive at pretty low speeds
| and I broke my arm. Onewheel blamed me, I had a lot of experience
| on the XR and a lot of time skateboards and skates. The device
| problems, I'm happy they are acknowledging that. I don't like
| that it is a voluntary recall. I don't want store credit, I don't
| trust Future Motion or their products.
| noman-land wrote:
| This for sure warrants a lawsuit.
| catiopatio wrote:
| It's very likely that the hardware and/or firmware was not
| designed to meet a quality standard appropriate for the
| associated customer risks.
| varjag wrote:
| Move fast and break bones?
| salad-tycoon wrote:
| These are the ones that move super fast with a terrible
| braking system (one wheel) and zero protective gear right?
| Never seen one in person but I've read chatter and seen a
| video a while back. I mean anyone that jumps out of an
| airplane should also be prepared for the chute to not
| deploy.
|
| I'm guessing the difference is that you dont have to sign a
| waiver for onewheel riding?
| catiopatio wrote:
| The design, maintenance, and alteration of parachute
| equipment is regulated by the FAA; equipment must be
| approved under the FAA's technical standards, and anyone
| packing a parachute must be an FAA-licensed rigger.
|
| AFAIK there are no such standards (mandatory or
| voluntary) applied to Onewheel's devices.
|
| They could have voluntarily applied hardware and software
| standards from other safety fields (e.g. automotive
| engineering), but they apparently chose not to.
|
| As the peer commenter said: move fast and break bones.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > I'm guessing the difference is that you dont have to
| sign a waiver for onewheel riding?
|
| If a chute doesn't open _because of a manufacturing
| defect_ , that creates liability for the manufacturer,
| too.
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| If they don't go bankrupt!
| shkkmo wrote:
| The store credit is just a $100 coupon that expires after 90
| days and can't be combined with other offers.
| ddingus wrote:
| That is a promo, not an apology, or even recognition of a
| problem.
|
| Feels like they had to do something, so they essentially did
| nothing enough to call it something.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| > I'm happy they are acknowledging that
|
| A full year after the CSPC told them they had problems YEARS
| after their customers had been telling them they had problems.
| [deleted]
| h2odragon wrote:
| I remember seeing ads for the one wheel the first time, and
| thinking it must be some kind of joke. Surely no one would have
| the nads to sell that in the USA? How are they _not_ going to be
| steamrolled by the liability lawsuits?
|
| Maybe that was part of the business plan in the first place, and
| they're also sponsoring the inevitable class action big lawsuit
| through another subsidiary company. Buy the victims off with a
| little money now in return for large shares of the settlements.
| 15 years from now when the courts decide they're due money for
| being stupid enough to get on the thing in the first place, the
| original company will have been long bankrupt, and the State (ie
| Taxpayers) will be on the hook to relieve the suffering of the
| poor victims.
|
| Not to mock people injured on these things; but seriously, just
| _look at it_. You embraced the risk when you stepped on it.
| alex_young wrote:
| I broke my pelvis and elbow while learning to ride a OneWheel+. I
| overcame the motor's resistance when attempting to accelerate
| from a low speed and went flying off the front. Recovery was
| rough, but not the end of the world.
|
| I still ride the thing. Mostly trail riding; I find the
| concentration required doesn't mix well with bumpy streets.
|
| I've also had injuries snowboarding and doing other sports.
|
| The recall thing makes sense, but offering $100 to destroy a
| $1700 toy seems kind of lame.
| sbdaman wrote:
| What the hell is a Chief Evangelist?
| jaybrendansmith wrote:
| Any disclosure on the reasons for the failures? Is there some
| kind of internal gyro that locks up, for example?
| iancmceachern wrote:
| It's basically that they handle failure modes like low battery,
| using it at the limit of the motors power, etc poorly. Rather
| than earn the rider they just much then off
| petre wrote:
| Too much tech. Just use a bike. Proven for over 120 years.
| chubot wrote:
| This is just my personal opinion, but as a both a programmer and
| a cyclist, and as someone who saw the OneWheels all over SF --
|
| I just can't trust that any organization will write code well
| enough to get on one of these things, especially where there is
| split-second interaction with SF traffic, and where my face being
| broken is one of the consequences.
|
| (I might trust certain people, but not organizations.)
|
| I don't know if they did anything bad or not, but the very
| concept seems suspect. I want my body to learn the laws of
| physics, as on a bike. I don't want my body to have to interact
| with software that gets updates over time.
|
| You can level similar criticisms at modern planes -- planes
| worked before software, and people learned over time how to fly
| them in bad conditions.
|
| They had skin in the game!!! People writing code in a company
| somewhere aren't personally liable for your face breaking, or the
| plane going down in flames. I didn't follow very closely, but the
| recent Toyota/Boeing issues basically seem like typical
| organizational blame deflection. No skin in the game.
|
| Unlike mechanical systems, this type of software has no end-
| user/operator repair.
|
| When software is doing too much, then the pilots and operators
| lose agency.
|
| ---
|
| So I believe a bicycle (or unicycle) has more agency than a
| OneWheel. The human is forced to learn it, and it's a STABLE
| target for learning.
|
| Humans have an intuitive sense of physics, and it can be honed to
| incredible degrees
|
| This reminds me of those viral videos of indoor cyclists that
| were going around >10 years ago
|
| https://youtu.be/WB3qTVg3hhs?t=158
|
| It's a perfect example of why you shouldn't underestimate the
| human's brain ability to learn -- software is not that flexible
| or reliable; AI is not that flexible or reliable.
|
| I mean think about SLOW the self-driving cars are after 10+
| years. Their reaction time and judgement is shit.
|
| I'm not an exceptional cyclist, but I've learned to make
| decisions safely in 15+ years of riding around SF, through
| diverse conditions and terrain. It's obvious to me that these
| capabilities are beyond software.
| xixixao wrote:
| All true, but you have to trust the organization(s) that
| manufactured your bike. And unless you're paying $Ks of dollars
| the manufacturing quality is sadly going down.
|
| My main point is: You gotta trust someone. If you trust no one
| you should move out to a remote uninhabited forest.
| chubot wrote:
| No, it's not all or nothing. Good engineering is simple,
| relies on less, and trusts less -- it doesn't require
| trusting zero.
|
| I also addressed the difference in the comment -- this type
| of software has no end-user / operator repair, and the costs
| of failure are great.
|
| I know how a bike works, and I can repair it. (Time-tested
| materials like steel frames are also nice.)
|
| I don't know how the OneWheel works. In theory, I might be
| able to read some of the source code, but that counts for
| very little. It's certainly more complex than a bike. It also
| hasn't been tested over a long period of time.
|
| Well it looks like we've had a test... I haven't touched a
| OneWheel since I first saw them 5 years ago, and now it seems
| like I have some good info about them.
|
| The test of time works!
| Ylpertnodi wrote:
| >And unless you're paying $Ks of dollars the manufacturing
| quality is sadly going down.
|
| Nope, _especially if_ you're paying $Ks of dollars the
| manufacturing quality is sadly going down.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Totally not, I can take a bicycle into my workshop, check if
| is made of steel or aluminium, inspect quality of hardware, I
| can test quality of a weld, hit it with a hammer, etc..
|
| You can't see source code of onewheel, or take out the
| firmware and run it in isolation.
|
| Software producing companies have the privileges of being
| protected from inspection, but responsibility of a guy
| assembling Ikea furniture.
| ilyt wrote:
| The problem is that it takes time. Learning how to go on 2
| wheels isn't that hard
|
| Learning how to go on one is noticeably harder as in need 2
| axis of balancing, not (essentially) one
|
| Meanwhile they want to sell product that's small and convenient
| enough to carry, and one wheel gives it advantage in that. And
| artificial balancing is easiest way to add it.
|
| > I mean think about SLOW the self-driving cars are after 10+
| years. Their reaction time and judgement is shit.
|
| > I'm not an exceptional cyclist, but I've learned to make
| decisions safely in 15+ years of riding around SF, through
| diverse conditions and terrain. It's obvious to me that these
| capabilities are beyond software.
|
| This thing is not self-driving. There is MASSIVE gulf between
| "make a vehicle controllable by human" and "make that vehicle
| self drive".
| andrelaszlo wrote:
| I saw a dad with his son together on one (or a similar product)
| last week. I doubt that they test things like that thoroughly.
|
| It definitely looked like an accident waiting to happen. Both
| were wearing helmets but they were going pretty fast. I can
| imagine that smashing your face into the ground will be ugly at
| those speeds. Especially for a 6-7 year-old with the weight of
| an adult added on top...
| flatline wrote:
| We can write safety-critical software. Look at NASA's CMM level
| 5 processes for some of their flight control software.
|
| I'm not as familiar with applications in other domains, but I
| know they exist. This is typically not fun code to write. It is
| bureaucratic and developed over decades. It is more an
| engineering discipline than most commercial software. And, it
| is organizational, this is not code written by a single
| individual. I would not trust that at all. More eyes mean more
| trust, broadly speaking.
|
| The 737 Max issues were not as much about software as corporate
| cost saving efforts.
|
| I have no idea if the OneWheel software can be fixed. I'm sure
| there was real talent that went into it. I suspect the first to
| market and other financial incentives were big factors in this
| outcome. Just the fact they are only now, apparently, adding
| user notification of error states is kind of crazy.
|
| So I agree that certain types of organizations are not
| trustworthy, but I also think the safest code we have ever
| written was done by...organizations.
| IshKebab wrote:
| The thing is this code only has to do one very simple
| function. It should be a few hundred lines at most. It's
| easily within the realm of formal verification.
|
| I guess they always thought they didn't need it...
| ok_dad wrote:
| NASA's code runs on devices that have am very specific
| missions. They can test all of the edge cases because they're
| going from A to B once and they have a decade to prepare that
| journey. People riding electric scooters and etc will run
| into more variability each day than NASA will in a whole
| mission.
|
| I crashed and broke my back on a two wheeled scooter in SF
| due to a pedestrian walking on a red don't walk sign, for
| example.
|
| Plus, none of these companies are doing NASA quality
| assurance or anything close, so why even compare them to
| NASA?
| ilyt wrote:
| > I crashed and broke my back on a two wheeled scooter in
| SF due to a pedestrian walking on a red don't walk sign,
| for example.
|
| And how exactly it was software's fault ?
| flatline wrote:
| I'm saying that organizations can, in fact, write safety
| critical code. One wheel does not need to account
| specifically for pedestrians crossing the road, but it does
| need to behave properly under a wider variety of conditions
| than a spacecraft or launch vehicle. Give it a decade with
| a half dozen teams working to making the code correct, and
| I think you could get there.
|
| I am inclined to think that a commercial entity cannot
| reliably write safety critical code for a primary income
| driver. You need different financial incentives and
| probably a different organizational structure for this to
| work.
|
| At the risk of derailing my point in minutiae, I suspect
| Waymo will ultimately deliver safe self-driving technology
| sooner than Tesla, for example.
| tromp wrote:
| > This reminds me of those viral videos of indoor cyclists that
| were going around >10 years ago
|
| The other day my wife showed me this unbelievable performance
| of a Chinese acrobat unicycling on top of a big rolling globe
| while doing acrobatics with balancing bowls on her head [1].
| Since that site is Chinese language with weird popups, I also
| found a 10 years later performance by the same lady on youtube
| [2], but it's not quite as effortless as the first.
|
| [1] https://www.douyin.com/video/7281815910430657846
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYuRlFjwql4
| eschulz wrote:
| Your comment reminds me of the Boeing 737 MAX problems which
| resulted in them all being grounded worldwide.
| hosteur wrote:
| Reminded me of this too. But luckily those 737 max8 got a
| software update (and a new name) and are happily flying
| again...
| avalys wrote:
| That was not a software bug, but a bad design from a
| dysfunctional organization that had long since stopped
| valuing sound engineering.
| bombcar wrote:
| And they even had the warning and procedure for the rare
| situation if it happened!
|
| Onewheel is just going to apparently warn you "this thing
| may not work. Whoopsie!"
| 0xDEAFBEAD wrote:
| The "skin in the game" point is interesting. Imagine if there
| was a way to buy personal injury insurance for a device such as
| the Onewheel. Then the insurer has an incentive to audit the
| code and check for safety hazards, in order to figure out what
| premium to charge. If you're a customer and you want to know
| which device is the safest, check to see which has the cheapest
| insurance.
| endisneigh wrote:
| I used to use an electric skateboard in the 2010s - very early on
| in the e mobility movement. Though I knew (and still know) how to
| skateboard I found it to be pretty dangerous due to the speeds
| you're now capable of. Unlike long boarding where you're forced
| to learn to slide in order to stop anyone can go 20mph+ and get
| themselves killed.
|
| The one wheel in a sense is worse because inherently there's no
| way to use it without electricity and people overestimate their
| ability to travel on high speeds on it.
|
| That's why I ended up going with e-bikes and escooters. I think
| the nature of the motion lends itself to be inherently safer.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I looked at the skateboards, the onewheel, scooters. I
| discounted the skateboards and the scooters because i know that
| small diameter wheels suck. A little gravel and you could be
| fucked. The onewheel was still interesting, I hit up the
| subreddit, tons of people talking about how they got hurt mixed
| with people telling them how dumb they were.. That was enough
| for me, I bought an ebike instead.
| marssaxman wrote:
| I just bought an electric longboard with large, all-terrain
| wheels - not for off-roading, but so I don't have to worry so
| much about the gravel and potholes on poorly-maintained
| Seattle streets. Seems to work well, so far - I can ride
| right down the unpaved gravel alleyway behind my house, even.
| You can still _feel_ the bumps and ruts, but you just roll
| right along, there 's none of the lurching you get with
| smaller wheels.
|
| Ebikes are both fun and practical, but I don't know where I'd
| store one during the work day; the skateboard can just come
| up the elevator with me.
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I am also in seattle, I wouldn't want to ride the streets
| in ballard with a skateboard, even with 'all-terrain
| wheels'. See a couple of onewheels doing it though.
|
| I store my bike in the bike cage at work, when I go into
| the office, most offices have them. At home I store it in
| my apt, we've had a couple of garage breakins that got a
| few bikes in the last couple of years. My bike is a folding
| model so I can store it in the big laundry closet I have to
| get it out of the way.
| Izkata wrote:
| Were you looking at razor-style scooters? Before that brand
| came up with their tiny scooters, pretty much all scooters
| had wheels around the diameter of these Onewheels. It's why
| back then we distinguished them as "scooters" vs "razors",
| while nowadays people seem to mean razor-style when they say
| "scooters"...
| asdff wrote:
| 60mm 79a skateboard wheels here. I go over gravel all the
| time. Sometimes even loose dirt paths. Patchy asphalt.
| Cobblestones and brick. Momentum is your friend here as well,
| faster you go more likely the board chucks out the
| obstruction. It takes quite a stone to stop these wheels,
| probably one that would pinch flat my bike inner tube and
| certainly one that would be very hard to miss unless I was
| not paying attention. I'm comfortable enough with the small
| rock situation to even eat breakfast or lunch on occasion
| while on the board.
| clolege wrote:
| > That's why I ended up going with e-bikes and escooters. I
| think the nature of the motion lends itself to be inherently
| safer.
|
| Mechanical brakes are nice.
| fiiisssh wrote:
| I've been electric longboarding for 3-4 years, and longboarding
| for longer, and I find rental electric scooters way more
| dangerous than electric longboards. It feels like there's just
| no way to bail, since there's a big stick in front of you and
| you're much higher off the ground. To be honest, I feel
| similarly about bikes but I can buy that that's a skill issue.
|
| This sentence doesn't make sense to me:
|
| > Unlike long boarding where you're forced to learn to slide in
| order to stop anyone can go 20mph+ and get themselves killed.
|
| I agree that electric longboarding is dangerous for beginners
| who never learned to longboard, but I don't see why that
| argument doesn't apply to scooters or bikes. Anyone can go
| 20mph+ on an escooter or ebike too, and it's harder to bail.
| Moreover, beginner longboarders often go faster than is safe
| down hills, since they're not practiced at controlling speed
| and stopping. For the disciplined rider, regardless of skill,
| electric longboards are safer since it's so much easier to
| control speed down hill.
|
| Nitpick: sliding is a pretty rare way to stop on a longboard.
| blamazon wrote:
| > Nitpick: sliding is a pretty rare way to stop on a
| longboard.
|
| To explain for anyone unaware, I primarily footbrake to stop
| on my longboard - you put one foot out and hold it against
| the ground and the friction slows you down.
| toast0 wrote:
| I don't think there's a good way to bail from a bike, but I
| can't think of a situation I've been in on a bike where
| bailing would have been a good choice.
|
| There's more chance of bailing if you're on an undersized
| bike (bmx style) or maybe on a step through design rather
| than a straight top tube. But I still don't know where you'd
| apply that; maybe at a skate park, but not on a road and I
| don't think on a trail either.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| > It feels like there's just no way to bail, since there's a
| big stick in front of you
|
| Ironically, the most ridiculous and most common way to hurt
| yourself on a scooter is to bail instead of continuing to
| ride the perfectly good scooter. You can find hundreds of
| videos on YouTube of people who upon seeing an obstacle just
| confidently step off the scooter (still going 15 mph) and eat
| dirt 0.5 seconds later instead of using the brake and safely
| stopping almost immediately (these usually brake just fine).
| endisneigh wrote:
| I dunno, scooters and bikes have mechanical brakes so there
| is no need to bail to begin with.
|
| Sliding is rare, true. But at high speeds is the only way to
| stop. At low speeds I do agree, but the issue is that
| footbraking requires balance, and even people decent at long
| boarding can lose control while footbraking.
|
| My main argument against longboard is that there's no way to
| stop at high speeds and that steering inherently requires
| shifting your weight in a way that makes you vulnerable.
|
| This is not to say that no one should longboard, but
| personally I only do so on flat terrain now.
| [deleted]
| hackermeows wrote:
| I have seen first hand how these things fail , i was riding down
| a hill with my friend on the on wheel and it just decided to stop
| flinging him on to stopped bus . If the thing fails there is
| nothing to hold on to , its either your hands that stop you or
| your face
| fumar wrote:
| I bought one, thought I mastered it, ended up in the ER, sold it.
| Onewheels require a full face helmet and pads. Even under ideal
| conditions, the device can fail of function different than
| expected causing the rider harm. I was riding mine off a 2-3 inch
| curb, which was on a familiar path I took daily, when the nose
| slammed and I flew off fracturing my rest. The sensation of a OW
| is amazing at low and high speeds, but the risk isn't worth the
| reward.
| bluecalm wrote:
| There is another safety related recall going on right now - this
| time in the world of cycling. Shimano (the biggest parts
| manufacturer) is recalling more than 2 million cranks (and it's
| likely they will recall even more in the future). It seems
| companies are seriously afraid of US agencies in this area.
| digdugdirk wrote:
| As they should be. Product safety should never be reduced down
| to a cost of doing business.
| [deleted]
| jdechko wrote:
| Thanks for posting this. I'm going to check mine as soon as I
| get home.
|
| https://bike.shimano.com/en-US/information/customer-services...
|
| For quick reference the affected model numbers are DURA-ACE and
| ULTEGRA branded cranksets with the following model numbers:
| ULTEGRA FC-6800, FC-R8000 and DURA-ACE FC-9000, FC-R9100 and
| FC-R9100-P.
| lostlogin wrote:
| Luckily, mine are all the cheap Shimano ones. This is their
| top stuff isn't it?
| petre wrote:
| Yup. The cheap 'heavy' ones are forged. Safe.
| bombcar wrote:
| In biking especially the high end stuff is often made out
| of exotic materials for low weight and can do strange non-
| metallic thinks, like shattering.
| wl wrote:
| These cranks are aluminum. The problem is that they are a
| hollow clamshell design to save weight. The bonding of
| that clamshell design is problematic.
| jeffbee wrote:
| The newer hollow cranks aren't problematic, so it can't
| be just that it's difficult to make a hollow crank. And
| it's not even that fancy any more, considering that the
| $100 FC-R7000 is also hollow.
| mdaniel wrote:
| This could very well be the wrong "vibe" thread to ask such a
| thing, but I'd guess those who are here would likely be an
| informed audience to solicit: has anyone heard of, or tried, to
| build Byte Sized Engineering's one-wheel:
| https://www.bytesizedengineering.com/projects/openwheel (and also
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkXIBCzrUr0 )?
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| > four known death cases -- three without a helmet -- between
| 2019 and 2021.
| [deleted]
| scrose wrote:
| I have emails talking with Future Motion support as early as 2017
| when my Onewheel+ was nosediving randomly at medium/low speeds
| (ie. Idling back and forth at a red light).
|
| I could never get them to acknowledge it was a defect. I put over
| 2,000 miles on the board, so I was no stranger to how it should
| ride. All of my close calls came from it just suddenly powering
| down on me and are why I lost enough trust in the board to get
| rid of it.
|
| If not for that defect, it would have been the best tool for
| commuting in the city. It could ride off curbs, over torn up
| roads, through grass, and best of all, I could actually bring it
| inside any building without needing to go through a freight
| elevator
| cjrp wrote:
| Did the wheel lock-up, or was it more like a blip of power-off
| then back on again?
| scrose wrote:
| The board would completely disengage and the nose would drop.
| The best I can explain the feeling is that it felt like I'd
| go from tapping the gas to pushing the clutch all the way
| down. There would be no 'pushback' from the board beforehand.
| Sometimes it'd happen even when starting from a standstill.
|
| From what I remember, the blue power light would be on, but
| it would take restarting the board for it to engage properly
| again.
| vernon99 wrote:
| I confirm this behavior and this is also the reason I vot rid
| of the board. Nosedives at red light are not fun at all when
| you are standing next to a road full of traffic.
| kzrdude wrote:
| What is a nosedive in this context?
| novia wrote:
| A onewheel is supposed to self-balance at all times. A
| nosedive would be when it failed to engage in the expected
| self balancing behavior, rendering it suddenly unrideable.
| thinkmassive wrote:
| That's literally impossible. It can only balance within
| its operating limits.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| https://thestoddardfirm.com/product-liability/onewheel/
|
| > Once the device senses that it is getting dangerously
| close to these limits, it shuts off. This wouldn't be a
| big problem on a regular motorized scooter, moped, or
| other comparable device, but the Onewheel has self-
| balancing technology that requires power. Instead of
| simply cutting off additional forward momentum and
| letting the user coast to a stop, the board lurches
| violently forward into the ground as soon as the motor
| stops, according to the reports of injured users.
| scrose wrote:
| They're probably talking about when you try to mount the
| board after waiting/dismounting at a red light, but the
| motor doesn't actually engage and it just falls forward
| bowsamic wrote:
| That's not what they meant
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37717656
| scrose wrote:
| You linked to what I wrote :)
|
| It seemed like vernon99 was talking about nosediving from
| a complete stop(trying to go from motor off -> motor
| engaged but the motor doesn't engage), whereas in the
| post you linked to, I was talking about starting from
| having the motor engaged already at a low speed (ie <5mph
| slowly moving back and forth waiting for a light) and
| then the power would just drop out.
|
| Same result, but likely different causes.
| avianlyric wrote:
| I read it as they're stopped stationary at lights,
| balancing on the board (so both feet off the ground), and
| at some point the One Wheel just decides to turn the
| motor off.
|
| If I had to guess, it sounds like the motor hits some
| thermal limit and cuts out. Which would explain why it
| happens at red lights often, lots of high torque motor
| excursion performing small moves to maintain balance, but
| little to no airflow because the motor isn't moving fast
| enough to pump air through itself.
| [deleted]
| asdff wrote:
| This is why a regular unpowered popsicle skateboard with some
| big fat soft wheels (60mm 79a ish is good) is the king of urban
| commuting in my experience. I ride it over torn up asphault
| that would have stopped a hard wheeled skateboard in its
| tracks. I pick the occasional glass piece out of the wheel and
| its none worse for the wear. I can take it with me anywhere. On
| a crowded train I can put it in between my legs. The board is
| very easy to stash out of the way indoors. The board probably
| weighs 1/5th the one wheel and I never have to worry about
| charging it or very much maintenance. It also has its own skill
| progression with tricks that has been really fun and satisfying
| to get into. ollies are downright useful to learn. I have seen
| better skateboarders than myself ollie up ~1ft tall curbs
| commuting through town; I don't think any other micromobility
| device can take a 1ft curb.
| notnmeyer wrote:
| tell me more about your setup. do you have risers under the
| trucks? seems like 60mm wheels on a standard popsicle board
| would be prone to wheel bite without really tight trucks.
| ploxiln wrote:
| I have a 15-year-old Loaded Vanguard (medium flex option)
| on which I put 85mm "Seismic Speed Vent" wheels. It's great
| for cruising and commuting, just not great for drifting /
| slides (too soft, chattery). I have 180mm trucks ... I
| forget the brand, it's been like 14 years! Anyway, wheel
| bite hasn't been a problem.
| asdff wrote:
| Indy mid trucks with 1/4" risers, tightened flush to the
| kingpin. No bite and its still loose enough where I feel
| like I could turn till I fall off.
| Jerrrry wrote:
| I have 120mm hot pink wheels and ha e 4inch spacer to avoid
| wheel bite
| zardo wrote:
| Four inch risers? That must feel odd to push with the
| board so high up.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| I think e-scooter like xiaomi ones works better for majority
| of population and is also foldable
| benjaminwootton wrote:
| eScooters are amazing. I wouldn't last 5 minutes on a
| skateboard, but I've done 1000s of kilometres on an
| eScooter without incident. I think they should be much more
| popular where the infrastructure exists.
| lstamour wrote:
| As a counterpoint, every 1500kms I've had a fall, though
| usually from bad road, not knowing where the curb cut
| was, inattentiveness and asphalt bumps, and once, the
| scooter's folding latch was too loose and the scooter
| folded while I was riding (at low speeds).
|
| I can definitely recommend falling on grass or mud rather
| than concrete or asphalt. ;-) And if you can't run off
| the scooter, rolling sometimes helps.
|
| Even after my experiences crashing on a scooter, I still
| love riding them. Suspension can help you keep your
| balance a bit better, but there's always a failure point
| that's possible to hit if you're not ready for it.
|
| I suspect e-bikes are a bit more stable than scooters,
| especially with bigger, fatter wheels, but then, you can
| stick a leg out or run off a scooter, whereas doing
| either of those things at speed is a bit harder sitting
| on a bike. And it's a different feel for the
| road/sidewalk.
| asdff wrote:
| They are fold able but certainly more clumsy when I see
| them on the train. Also a lot more expensive and yet
| another thing you gotta charge and eventually replace a
| battery for. Its also a 30lb hunk of metal still, not
| everyone can comfortably tote that up and down train
| station steps all day. Most people I see don't even fold
| their escooter on the train just hold the handle, roll it
| in and have the tail out and let people deal with stepping
| over it. Makes me think transit as we know it wouldn't even
| work if everyone got one of these things or an ebike and
| took up so much extra space as a result.
| FrankoDelMar wrote:
| > Makes me think transit as we know it wouldn't even work
| if everyone got one of these things or an ebike and took
| up so much extra space as a result.
|
| I've been wondered something like this too when I see
| people bring their scooters into a restaurant, the gym or
| other indoor spaces. I get that you don't want it stolen
| but it would untenable if everyone did it.
| burnished wrote:
| At that point I suspect there would be dedicated parking
| - on the light rail near me there is a spot for luggage
| with ceiling hooks for hanging your bike
| asdff wrote:
| Yeah some train cars do have a dedicated spot for bikes
| and bulky stuff, even with a little bike sticker on the
| door to label them as such. But It still comes at a big
| cost. I'd say in the space three people with three ebikes
| can fit, you can probably fit at least three times as
| many people standing and hanging on the pole. Plus in the
| chaos of the few seconds the train waits with the doors
| open they can be a hassle and are sometimes even a source
| of door delays moving past people and unloading all this
| equipment.
| Dwewlyo wrote:
| You still would ride something which can't work if a hal sensor
| fails or a battery or anything else.
|
| It's not like a bike or E-Bike.
|
| I have no clue how you look at this and don't think 'death
| trap's or 'stupid way of dying '
| sneak wrote:
| > _If not for that defect, it would have been the best tool for
| commuting in the city._
|
| Except for that part where you're going faster than the fastest
| sprinter, with a high center of gravity. Even with a helmet,
| and no explicit defect, these things are inherently _extremely_
| dangerous by their very design.
| thinkmassive wrote:
| They can also be _extremely fun!_
|
| It's unfortunate that so many people fail to recognize the
| inherent danger and choose to blame the device instead of
| their abilities.
|
| Anyone who can't control their balance on the fulcrum of a
| kart tire -- under their own muscle power -- trying to go
| fast on one of these boards is outright reckless.
| nomel wrote:
| New things, that don't have historic/cultural armor, can't
| survive. For example, there were 450 bicycle deaths in
| 2020, unrelated to traffic.
| 303uru wrote:
| I ride my bike, a lot. And I got passed once or twice a week
| for about a year by a guy on one of these that I assume was
| modified because it would go at least 25-30mph. No helmet on
| and he'd pretty belligerently pass me and pedestrians with
| little margin. Then I didn't see him anymore.
| lstamour wrote:
| Similarly, I used to see these a lot last year, but I've
| only seen one person near me riding a one-wheel recently.
| Sadly, he was riding it with what looked like his 3 year
| old daughter holding on to his knees for dear life. I
| wanted to say something, but I assumed they're just going
| "to the store" nearby. But still... hurting yourself is one
| thing, but riding an e-scooter or one-wheel with young
| children seems like quite another...
| 8n4vidtmkvmk wrote:
| 2 wheel scooters are pretty compact too, no? Not sure how good
| they are on various terrains.. maybe they can make the wheels a
| bit bigger
| jareklupinski wrote:
| went down this rabbit hole recently and ended up getting a
| folding ebike
|
| once you start scaling up 2 wheel scooter wheels to become
| big enough to comfortably ride anywhere in a city that wasnt
| explicitly designed for scooter traffic (nyc for example),
| the weight of the whole scooter starts surpassing even
| lighter ebikes (60 lb+), without the benefit of lower costs
| or more transportability (few/none 500W+ scooters can be
| carried comfortably through a narrower nyc restaurant door)
|
| this one came closest https://inokim.shop/collections/inokim-
| scooters/products/ino... but after testing it out I couldn't
| see the upside over a smaller folding ebike
| Pxtl wrote:
| Isn't range a big factor here? Like, the shortest-ranged
| brand-name electric kickscooters have a range of like 15
| miles, while that's the most you can get out the longest-
| ranged onewheels.
|
| It seems like it'd be possible to offer ultralight
| kickscooters that would be an apples-to-apples comparison
| with the onewheel that could fold down to the same
| collapsed size.
| jareklupinski wrote:
| there was a much larger variety of these exact kinds
| during the pandemic, but trying to find one these days is
| hard, and the used ones have company names that no longer
| exist
|
| the smaller and lighter they are, the more integrated and
| specialized parts they have, for which replacements need
| to come directly from the manufacturer :(
|
| still kind of crazy, the sheer variety of models that are
| still on youtube videos from just a couple years ago,
| that are no longer even possible...
| senkora wrote:
| Any models of folding ebikes that you liked? I'm in the
| market for one.
| jareklupinski wrote:
| i ended up going with the cheapest one that can still
| carry me around far enough (both ways) comfortably:
| https://www.amazon.com/HITWAY-Electric-
| Removable-20-55mile-B... (it was 800 when i purchased,
| also available under a number of different brand names if
| you search for things like 'foldable 20 inch fat tire
| ebike')
|
| every brand's advantages just started blurring together
| until someone said "it's just going to be stolen
| anyway..."
|
| with the money i saved by getting a cheaper bike, i
| bought the most expensive lock, to keep the thing from
| riding away :)
| sleepybrett wrote:
| I have one but it's quite heavy and designed more around
| cargo, trips to the grocery store etc. I have used to it
| commute into town to go to the office a few times and it
| works ok for it, but if I started doing that every day
| I'd probably buy something more 'commutery'.
|
| I have a rad power bikes 'expand 5'.
| masklinn wrote:
| What is the commutery-ness issue? The tyres do look
| chonky which might be inefficient for long-ish distance,
| or is it a bit small for long rides? Or is the
| maintenance a bit much for a daily?
| sleepybrett wrote:
| Yeah it's got wide tires (and they are pretty small in
| diameter as well) and it's a stepthrough with an awfully
| heavy frame. I might go with something like the radcity
| if I were going to commute daily. Currently that commute
| is only 6ish miles though and I'm still mostly WFH, so
| it's not as critical.
|
| Rad does consider it a commuter bike, I just consider it
| a tad non-optimal but not anything terrible. Great for
| neighborhood errands though. My neighborhood 'main drag'
| is great for a little shopping/eating but is about a mile
| and change away so it's certainly walkable but I wouldn't
| want to lug groceries a mile up a hill so the bike is
| perfect. Haven't touched my car all summer unless I was
| getting out of the city.
|
| It is a bit small. I think they rate it for people who
| are 5'10" max, which is my height to get full leg
| extension. While it does fold it is quite heavy so if you
| are thinking about a scenario where you drive the edge of
| the city and bike the rest of the way in just know that
| getting it in and out of a trunk is a bit of a wrestling
| match.
|
| Maintenance-wise, no big complaints in almost a year and
| a half. I had a flat tire and was able to find a
| replacement tube no problem at a local bike shop. I've
| had to replace the brake pads and frayed up the brake
| cable in the process so I replaced that too, did all the
| work myself cost me maybe ~$20 in parts. Considering
| swapping the brakes for some 'hybrid hydraulic brakes'
| aka cable pull hydraulics, those will run me a couple
| hundred bucks for the pair, the work seems easy enough if
| you've ever swung a wrench. Did some lubing of the
| chain... No battery issues, no controller issues.
|
| https://www.radpowerbikes.com/collections/electric-city-
| comm...
| mperham wrote:
| Brompton is the king of portable folders. The Lectric 3.0
| is the king of utility folders.
| scrose wrote:
| I have a 2017 Evelo Quest One that's wrapping up it's 6th
| year now. It's been almost entirely hassle free besides
| general maintenance and a battery replacement after ~4
| years. It looks like the company replaced it with the
| Evelo Dash.
|
| There's lots of good folding electric options right now,
| but if your budget allows for it, I'd *highly* recommend
| looking for folders with Gates drives. You will be able
| to roll and hold the bike folded between your legs
| without worrying about wiping grease all over your
| pants(or some unfortunate soul who bumps into it). It's
| also one of the few things that lives up to its hype --
| it's been entirely maintenance-free over the last ~6years
| I've been riding
| jareklupinski wrote:
| the "evelo dash" is like the audi to the VW "hitway
| bk10m" i ended up getting
| phkahler wrote:
| >> I'd _highly_ recommend looking for folders with Gates
| drives.
|
| Back in '07 I was working in automotive electric steering
| systems and the design called for a belt between motor
| and ball-nut. I was shocked the safety analysis was OK
| with that, but the durability and test data said it would
| be fine. We used Gates belts. I've never heard of any
| problem with those systems which are 15 years old now.
| Apparently their belts are of top notch reliability.
| jessriedel wrote:
| Any thoughts on the mechanics behind this? For any wheel
| size and range, a scooter naively seems like it is going to
| have strictly less metal than an e-bike, so I would have
| thought they would be lighter.
| rightbyte wrote:
| A scooter is a flat plate with a steering column adding
| no strength. A bicycle is two triangle elements of pipes.
| bee_rider wrote:
| I wonder why nobody has done electric rollerblades yet.
| coryrc wrote:
| It's not safe to go fast on them, so they aren't
| practical in daily life.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| the wheels are too small to use on a city street at
| decent speeds, one pothole and you're done
| williamscales wrote:
| People have: https://youtu.be/yttvsEFBUb8
| sleepybrett wrote:
| ... they have https://www.escendblades.com/
| btbuildem wrote:
| A quick web search will dispel this assumption -- there
| are a number of products out there fitting that
| description.
| HPsquared wrote:
| The frame of a bicycle is probably a lot lighter, as a
| sort of triangulated truss - compared to the "solid beam"
| style of a scooter. Disadvantage is it takes more space.
| pkage wrote:
| You don't pedal on an scooter, so the battery needs to be
| big enough to carry around both you and the larger
| battery (adding weight). Conversely, e-bikes can assist
| your pedaling (rather than having to replace it in all
| cases) so they can be lighter.
| smarmgoblin wrote:
| That's correct. I have the smallest offering from the
| manufacturer you linked and it's super portable (30lbs) but
| the ride is bumpy even on relatively smooth road.
|
| You do get used to it but never feels quite as safe as a
| bike.
| scrose wrote:
| There are plenty of compact options for sure, but I haven't
| found any as 'hassle-free', at least when I reach my final
| destination :)
|
| I also have a folding e-bike which has larger and wider
| wheels than a scooter, which is preferable in my opinion. The
| problem with scooters and e-bikes, even folding ones, are
| that a lot of buildings will not let you take them indoors.
| Or most will have you use a freight elevator, which is
| operated manually AND has set hours that it's run.
|
| There's also the difficulty of storing/locking them if you go
| out for dinner or some other event. Something as small as a
| Onewheel that you could pick up and walk with, and is small
| enough to store under a table, or take on a train without
| blocking anyone is a dream in this sort of environment.
|
| Edit: I should also note that I'm speaking from my very NYC
| perspective.
| mgaunard wrote:
| Why can't you keep your bike outside like a normal person?
|
| Attach it to a pole or whatever.
| roboror wrote:
| Theft & rust.
| hackernewds wrote:
| Are there other alternatives to One wheel that work? I also
| like the thick single wheel modality
| mikepurvis wrote:
| Definitely eskate. I've had a boosted v2 for six years
| and it's awesome, but the options out there now from
| backfire and meepo are insane step ups in speed and
| battery life, for the same money or less.
|
| I love it especially as a last mile option in conjunction
| with buses and trains.
| masklinn wrote:
| Electric longboard maybe?
| Pxtl wrote:
| That seems like the best option. Adding a motor to a
| longboard is just enhancing a known proven quantity. It
| won't have the maneuverability of a onewheel or the all-
| terrain ability, but longboards are definitely a proven
| vehicle for roadways so motorized ones seem fine.
|
| Maybe there's some variation of the kickscooter that can
| meet the portability and compactness of a onewheel.
| Something that focuses on the foldability of the old
| Razor scooters. But that still wouldn't be as convenient.
|
| Fundamentally, the onewheel seems like a personal-
| mobility answer to the V22 Osprey: a vehicle with amazing
| functionality and versatility in its happy path, but is
| fundamentally unsafe in failure because of the basic
| physics of the situation.
|
| edit: onewheel, not longboard, in the final paragraph.
| asdff wrote:
| Small skateboard with big soft wheels. 6-7lbs or so. Can
| shove it between your legs on the train.
| freemanindia wrote:
| Electric unicycles win this category for fun, compact,
| motorized transportation, tho there's more of a learning
| curve than scooters or bikes.
| edanm wrote:
| Have you found a good alternative tool?
|
| I've been using the Segway mini for years and think it's
| amazing, it hits all those things you mentioned.
|
| Its only problem is that it's no longer sold, and mine is
| starting you show its age. My wheels and battery need changing,
| but I'm not sure if anyone can actually do that anymore.
|
| So I'd really like another option...
| Animats wrote:
| The Segway, at least originally, had considerable redundancy
| in the control system. I think they had four gyros and four
| accelerometers arranged in a tetrahedron. If you have four
| set up that way, you can get out info for all three principal
| axes, plus an error value that indicates sensor trouble. So
| failure can be detected quickly.
|
| Does the one-wheel have that?
| mongrelion wrote:
| I ride electric unicycles and I have a question about these
| OneWheels: when you are rolling, the wheel self balances,
| right? And when you are reaching the power limitations of the
| board, does it let you know of this in any way? The EUC will
| either tiltback (the wheel will literally stop you from leaning
| even more, so you are forced to lean man) or it will beep
| _very_ loudly for several seconds, before it finally cuts off
| either because you fried the board or because the wheel is
| protecting itself.
| eknkc wrote:
| It has a tilt back feedback. However it is possible to miss
| it and there is not much buffer after you hit the feedback
| point.
|
| I believe they just released a new firmware along with this
| recall and they have added something new. Might be vibration
| or sound but I can't remember exactly what.
| permo-w wrote:
| why not just get some equivalent with two/four wheels then? I
| get the feeling the answer has something to do with aesthetics
| rather than practicality
| MivLives wrote:
| Maneuverability. You can turn in place. The tire is massive
| compared to a skateboard wheel. It can run off road, it feels
| nice on road.
| asdff wrote:
| You can turn in place on a skateboard too by kick turning.
| Xenoamorphous wrote:
| Stupid question, but how do you turn?
| eknkc wrote:
| You can forcefully pivot it if you wish to turn in place
| while stationary. Otherwise you lean on the side and
| accelerate, the wheel is huge and there is enough
| sidewall to lean on to. You can perform pretty sharp
| turns. I'd also do a back and forward move, like a 3
| point turn but rapidly and within something like 20cm
| space.
| Tossrock wrote:
| Electric unicycles can do all that and are better in every
| practical aspect, but don't have the cool-factor of
| standing sideways on a board.
| scrose wrote:
| I can absolutely assure you that 'aesthetics' don't play any
| role in any of my commuter options :)
|
| I also stand by this: The Onewheel was the most versatile
| commuter option I've ever used in NYC.
|
| If failsafes were added that didn't rely on 'maintain balance
| while skidding on your nose or tail at 15+mph in traffic if
| the power decides to randomly cut off', I'd likely buy it
| again.
| qup wrote:
| What did segways do that prevented nosedives?
| ambicapter wrote:
| Anyone who rides a OneWheel in public is not someone who's
| unduly concerned with aesthetics :D
| lolc wrote:
| Do your aesthetics favour slobs in big boxes?
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| This is one of those situations where I think it makes loads of
| sense for the product to have open source software. I guess it
| would make clones easier but I hear there's already third party
| open source code for onewheels so they can't prevent it. But if
| the mainline code was open source, some engineer would spend
| three weeks chasing down these bugs and submitting patches and
| everyone would benefit. Instead, they ship buggy code and put
| users and their business at risk. The business world has this
| attitude that proprietary closed source systems should always
| be the default, and open source needs justification. And
| further the business types tend not to know very much about
| open source, so they stick to what they know. But I don't think
| these assumptions really make a lot of sense, as open source
| would help so many issues we see today, even from the
| business's perspective.
| krisoft wrote:
| > But if the mainline code was open source, some engineer
| would spend three weeks chasing down these bugs and
| submitting patches and everyone would benefit.
|
| That assumes that the problem is buggy code, isn't it? What
| if it is buggy hardware? What if it is the electronics that
| is glitching out?
| thinkmassive wrote:
| The VESC community is extraordinarily impressive.
|
| At the same time, I'm doubtful that software bugs in the
| proprietary code are related to the vast majority of these
| failures people describe. The only legitimate issues I've
| seen are caused by sensors (either the foot sensor itself, or
| improper mounting usually related to grip tape) or water
| damage.
|
| A Onewheel attempts to self balance. To accelerate, you lean
| the direction you want to go. As your speed increases, the
| board starts tilting the nose up to signal it's reaching its
| limit. Powering the motor requires energy, and self-balancing
| requires additional energy beyond that, so a safe amount of
| headroom needs to be reserved to accommodate for variations
| in terrain and rider movements.
|
| When the noise starts tilting up, there's nothing to stop the
| rider from leaning forward more, which also signals to
| accelerate. This is called "pushing through pushback" and
| it's required to go more than ~16-18 mph.
|
| Imagine the extreme case where you quickly lift your rear
| foot off the board. Obviously it's going to stop suddenly,
| and you'll fly through the air and smash into the ground.
| Every nosedive is exactly this scenario, just slightly less
| extreme.
|
| Once I grasped this simple concept it became obvious that
| every fall was my own fault. This is why I recommend new
| riders practice balancing with the board powered off. If you
| can't easily do that, you have no business pushing through
| pushback.
|
| The boards being "fixed" by this recall are getting a new
| feature that makes the board vibrate at high speeds. This is
| done by modulating the motor, it requires no new transducer.
| The only "failure" is of the rider being oblivious to the
| signal the board is sending.
|
| Source: own a V1, Plus, and GT; ridden thousands of miles on
| my own and other's boards; ran a meetup and met a huge
| variety of rider types; once raced in the GoPro Games;
| crashed hundreds of times including the obligatory bone-
| breaking incident resulting in surgery
|
| tl;dr: Future Motion is anti-consumer, haptic feedback is
| overdue, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the
| Onewheel. Every nosedive is ultimately due to rider error.
| thinkmassive wrote:
| I'll also point out that I'm a FOSS fanatic, and I
| completely agree that single-wheeled self-balancing boards
| will gain increased reliability and performance thanks to
| the VESC community openly sharing their progress.
|
| This is orthogonal to riders accepting they're
| participating in a fun but very dangerous board sport.
| swores wrote:
| > _I guess it would make clones easier but I hear there's
| already third party open source code for onewheels so they
| can't prevent it._
|
| I suspect a lot of the fear of open source is driven by the
| uncertainty of how big the "easier" in this sentence is.
|
| On the competitors side, what if it's currently taking up 90%
| of your competitor's time just to understand what you're
| doing and make a rough not-quite-as-good imitation, whereas
| if it was open source that time drops to 5% leaving them much
| more scope to improve on top?
|
| Plus, there's fear about security too. Sure nobody should
| rely on security by obscurity, but that doesn't mean it can't
| be a helpful thing and what if hackers spend more time
| reviewing the code you release than friendly bug finders do?
| I personally have no idea if there's any data on whether OSS
| has better, the same, or worse track record on average for
| being hacked, or if there've been studies on how often hacks
| happen with or without source code being available, etc. but
| regardless of the actual odds, it _feels_ like the business
| equivalent of leaving your house 's front door open 24/7, so
| it can be an emotional argument as much as anything.
|
| And like you said, the current default expectation is closed
| source as default, so the decision makers find safety in
| making the choice that feels less risky unless they can be
| sure it will bring big enough positives to be worth it.
| semiquaver wrote:
| Hold on, I'll be ready to take my board out as soon as I
| figure out what's wrong with my xorg.conf...
| joshspankit wrote:
| It's challenging for many businesses because they worry they
| are one bad incident away from bankruptcy while also knowing
| that their staff is not perfect.
|
| They assume they are shipping bugs _and in some cases they
| are intentionally shipping bugs_ to make deadlines. It's
| scary for a business to decide to make those bugs public even
| though most of us know the end result is better product
| quality and higher social capital.
| TaylorAlexander wrote:
| > They assume they are shipping bugs and in some cases they
| are intentionally shipping bugs to make deadlines.
|
| I am sure they are, but companies making products that
| relate to human safety simply should not do this.
|
| > even though most of us know the end result is better
| product quality and higher social capital.
|
| I agree. I guess I wish there was more education about this
| in our higher institutions and I suppose at conferences.
| They should be asking questions about what is best for
| their business and we should be sharing stories of how open
| source can work in big business.
| JeremyNT wrote:
| I've got a Brompton folding bike and it's really a great way to
| move through a city.
|
| It's not as compact as your device, but it gets quite small
| when folded for storage, and there's a configuration where you
| fold it down except for the handlebars and can push it around
| like a little cart.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| I can second that a Brompton is an awesome city bike. I had
| one in Boston, and besides the aforementioned utility, it got
| compliments from people from every possible demographic. They
| put a smile on damn near everyone's faces.
|
| Get a good pair of padded gloves though. The small, high
| pressure tires are a punishing ride over shitty pavement.
| I.e., the kind that's found everywhere in Boston.
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| Half Tesla autopilot still?
| donw wrote:
| Maybe they can pivot and rebrand themselves as the Deathwheel?
| migf wrote:
| Every middle aged former skateboarder turned bartender or liquor
| sales person I know who's gotten on one of these fuckers cracked
| their face open. You have been warned.
|
| I just looked at one and it stole all my hyphens.
| [deleted]
| sharkweek wrote:
| I skated a TON in high school and college, pretty much spent my
| entire summers skating. Gave it up when I turned
| "professional."
|
| When my son was born (about 10 years later) I had a brief
| crisis of self and thought "you know what would make me feel
| like myself again? Skating."
|
| Took me about a month but proceeded to snap my wrist, made it
| hard to change diapers for a few weeks so it was uh... decided
| in our household that I'd finally let it go for good.
|
| Thought about getting a OneWheel but to your exact point, am
| 99% sure user and/or mechanical error would cause me to crack
| my head open. After reading about this recall, I'm definitely
| not ever getting one.
| dfc wrote:
| Steal your hyphens? What does that mean?
| coolspot wrote:
| This comment is a humorous remark that implies that the
| person who wrote it is so old and fragile that even looking
| at a skateboard (one of these fuckers) caused them to lose
| their ability to use hyphens in their writing. Hyphens are
| punctuation marks that are used to join words or parts of
| words, such as in "middle-aged" or "liquor-sales person". The
| comment is exaggerating the effect of aging and skateboarding
| on the person's health and grammar. It is also a self-
| deprecating joke that mocks the person's own lack of hyphens
| in their comment.
|
| Thanks LLM!
| fuzzybear3965 wrote:
| Wow. I'm not sure it's right. But, that feels/seems right.
| digitalapnea wrote:
| This is the first truly novel use case of LLMs that I have
| seen: "decrypt on-the-fly slang".
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| Do LLMs purposely waffle on to increase token usage and
| therefore revenue?
| MarkusWandel wrote:
| I haven't personally seen a Onewheel crash, but someone did pass
| me on my (non-electric) bike with a powered skateboard the other
| day, and not 10m past, one of the wheels dug into a pavement
| defect, board stopped, he didn't. Low-ish speed, got away with
| some scrapes and a bruised ego, but no bones broken.
|
| The fact with these things is, you don't have leverage to stop.
| On a bike with proper posture, your center of mass is a fair way
| behind the contact patch of the front wheel and you can brake
| _hard_ to the point of wheels skidding and not nosedive. Though a
| front wheel motor hypothetically going from full power to sudden
| lockup probably would send you over the handlebars.
|
| Someone passed me on an e-scooter with 6" wheels, going at least
| 40km/h (I was going about 30km/h and the passing speed was
| significant). Disaster waiting to happen.
| exo-pla-net wrote:
| To be a rare positive voice, I own their newest model, the
| Onewheel GT, and I absolutely love it. It feels like snowboarding
| around town. I've put hundreds of miles on it without a single
| issue.
|
| For safety, I wear motorcycle armor and wrist guards with it, and
| I keep my maximum speed at ~15mph. Injuries are almost always
| caused by people not wearing simple safety equipment and trying
| to go way too fast.
|
| I'd never _recommend_ an adrenaline-adjacent activity, since I
| don 't want it on my conscience if a person gets hurt. But
| Onewheeling might be my favorite part of the day: it's like
| having a cabin on the slopes of Colorado, where you're able to
| step out the front door and immediately have the experience of
| snowboarding.
|
| So, I won't recommend it per se, but it's as fun as advertised,
| and you'll know it if you need it.
| sneak wrote:
| > _For safety, I wear motorcycle armor and wrist guards with
| it_
|
| Does that include a helmet?
| exo-pla-net wrote:
| I think you can guess. I specifically wear a BMX helmet.
| rytill wrote:
| To add a perspective I haven't seen yet in this thread, I've been
| riding one of these for 6 years and it's basically my favorite
| way to get around.
|
| For me, it has more utility than a bike. I usually go around 15
| mph and I'm careful to not nosedive which happens when you go
| really fast (~20+ on a pint) or accelerate too quickly.
|
| Though, I learned the behavior of the board the hard way. I
| wouldn't recommend it to most people even though I love it
| personally.
|
| I hope Future Motion increases the reliability and safety of the
| board and keeps refining their product.
| JeremyNT wrote:
| > I hope Future Motion increases the reliability and safety of
| the board and keeps refining their product.
|
| Maybe the concept of this product could work, but would you
| really ever trust this company again? You may have been lucky
| but you know others were not, and the company kept downplaying
| the issues with the device.
|
| It took them this long to finally do a voluntary recall of this
| device, what's going to happen next time something goes wrong?
| jrm4 wrote:
| Never touched one, but FWIW it's the only thing I see daily that
| feels like the future.
|
| That being said, I literally only see one, and it's the same one,
| there's a kid who commutes to my kids school every day in a
| suburban area.
| jtokoph wrote:
| This seems like a cheap (or maybe even profitable) recall.
|
| For new models, it's just a software update (~free) and for old
| models it's a $100 credit on a new board which probably doesn't
| consume all of the profit on a sale of a board.
|
| Plus this coverage is now a ton of free advertising for a product
| many forgot about or didn't know about.
|
| Shouldn't they have just done this years ago? Am I missing
| something?
| someonehere wrote:
| I was convinced the smaller one they were about to release was
| something I wanted to try.
|
| Height of the communal electric scooter rental phase, I thought
| this would be a great way to get around downtown where I worked.
| Paid the deposit and couldn't wait.
|
| As time went on the excitement wore off because it seemed more
| dangerous when I would see existing riders going around. I
| eventually cancelled the pre-order.
|
| Here we are years later and three or four people have died. Just
| like my instinct told me.
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