[HN Gopher] MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World
___________________________________________________________________
MDMA and the Quest for Connection in a Fractured World
Author : EA-3167
Score : 140 points
Date : 2023-09-25 14:36 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (undark.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (undark.org)
| stranded22 wrote:
| I took various drugs as a teenager but I fell in love with mdma -
| specifically building a very strong, close nit friendship group
| with my girlfriend and 2 friends (and another group
| occasionally).
|
| It helped my girlfriend (now wife) move through some childhood
| trauma as well as eating disorders too.
|
| Wasn't so much into clubs - had a few parties in woods which were
| mind blowing (fire jugglers in fields was a highlight).
|
| Downsides were more that I didn't put as much time or care into
| side projects whilst at university- and having to deal with dodgy
| people to get hold of it.
|
| Zero reasons why it is illegal (class A, no less), but alcohol is
| fully accepted.
| FredPret wrote:
| DO NOT SELF-MEDICATE.
|
| I've seen people do this (with this and other drugs) and it can
| totally break people. I'm glad someone out there is happier than
| they were now, but it's insanely risky to apply untested foreign
| chemicals directly into your decision-making apparatus and the
| seat of your consciousness.
| stephenitis wrote:
| self medicating psilocybin saved my wife several times, it has
| a 4-5 month effect but it is preferable over SSRIs for her.
|
| If you do self medicate, take every sensible precaution you
| can, test your drugs, try to be supervised by someone who is
| educated and knowledgeable, and... if possible see real
| therapist while your neuroplasticity window is widened.
|
| People get in trouble and other people are able to change their
| minds in positibe way.
| kortex wrote:
| Maybe if the exogenous medical system didn't suck so bad, there
| would be less need to self-medicate.
|
| Also, "self-medicate" is such a disparaging term. Humans have
| been medicating outside of a clinical context for approximately
| 99% of our existence as Homo sapiens. I'm pretty sure my cat is
| "self-medicating" when she can't get a hairball up on her own
| and so she eats some lawn grass and yakks (usually on my
| couch).
| renewiltord wrote:
| Actually, go ahead and do. Maybe you get serotonin syndrome,
| maybe you save your life.
|
| We're an aggregate organism and some of the individuals will
| always be on the edge of experimentation. It's just the nature
| of the thing.
|
| Be yourself. Be free. Some of us will die, some of us will be
| ruined, but the rest of us will be more informed.
| timcobb wrote:
| > Some of us will die, some of us will be ruined,
|
| Not something to just brush off, even though people will be
| ruined and die no matter what we do.
| FredPret wrote:
| We are now more informed. And I'm imparting the information I
| have gathered from the experiments of others that I have
| observed.
|
| It's not worth the risk.
|
| You want to self-medicate? Do it with chemicals produced
| inside your body. Meditate, do a triathlon, lift weights,
| become a health-food nut, get some sun, find some opportunity
| for socialization, do that sauna + cold plunge thing,
| whatever.
|
| All of it is safer than swallowing/snorting/injecting some
| concoction that may or may not break your brain.
| xp84 wrote:
| I guess you're being downvoted by people who view your
| advice as impinging on "freedom," but I think you're not
| unfounded.
|
| It's worth pointing out that the fact you can only get
| these drugs from the black market presently does introduce
| a whole separate "you don't know what you're getting"
| aspect to this. So even if you believe MDMA is a cure-all
| and you're 100% right, do you actually know that it is
| real? It's a bummer, but everyone does need to weigh that
| in their decision if they want to keep themselves safe.
| Matticus_Rex wrote:
| I downvoted it because it's just not good advice. Taken
| overly literally, it's probably harmful.
|
| Yes, you should be _careful_ self-medicating with
| chemicals. There are ways to do it safely, though, even
| with MDMA. You should also do other things (as you are
| able) that don 't require chemicals, and a lot of those
| should come before _most_ chemicals.
|
| But some chemicals are really safe! E.g. for anxiety, try
| silexan and L-theanine as a first-line thing -- they're
| both cheap and have no significant negative side-effects.
| And other chemicals are really powerful and
| transformative, and while they need to be considered
| and/or used with extreme care, they may be really good
| options. I'd absolutely take the risk of MDMA _with
| proper testing, dosing, and supplementation_ over the
| risk to my body from a triathlon, for example.
|
| And you should _definitely_ test MDMA, or have someone
| test it. Both of those are pretty accessible options for
| people who already know how to get MDMA.
| xp84 wrote:
| I see. I appreciate your clarification and the addition
| of the strong testing endorsement.
| broscillator wrote:
| some of these drugs are very easy to grow yourself, or
| know a friend who does
| stephenitis wrote:
| There is 3 home chemical tests you can run to narrow down
| the likelihood that it is MDMA. There are also labs that
| can verify via mass spectrometer, free in europe, paid in
| usa.
|
| https://dancesafe.org/product/mdma-testing-kit/
|
| Purity tests are pretty subjective. People have also been
| testing their drugs for the presence of fentenayl but
| it's somewhat unlikely due to the drug profile and can
| throw false positives given the sensitivity of the test
| sample setup.
| stephenitis wrote:
| How much 2nd hand experience have you gathered? Can you
| describe some scenarios, circumstance, drug of people you
| observed?
|
| I'm genuinely curious what shaped your view on this.
| shortcake27 wrote:
| > It's not worth the risk. You want to self-medicate? Do it
| with chemicals produced inside your body. Meditate, do a
| triathlon, lift weights, become a health-food nut, get some
| sun, find some opportunity for socialization, do that sauna
| + cold plunge thing, whatever.
|
| Wow, silly me! If only I had've known that my crippling
| depression, anxiety, and fuck knows what else could be
| solved by lifting weights and getting some sun.
|
| It's evidently clear you aren't, and have never, suffered
| from severe mental illness. With all due respect, please
| step off. You don't have the slightest clue what you're
| talking about.
|
| I went vegan. Got jacked. Ran 20 miles a week. It didn't
| help in the slightest. I was fit, healthy, and depressed as
| fuck. None of that had anywhere near the same effect as a
| single bump.
|
| So forgive me if "safety" isn't my paramount concern when
| every waking moment is a nightmare.
| FredPret wrote:
| I said do not SELF medicate. If you need medication, get
| it from a professional.
|
| For the vast majority of depressed people, a simple
| workout habit will do the trick. This should be the first
| thing everyone tries.
| mdorazio wrote:
| > For the vast majority of depressed people, a simple
| workout habit will do the trick.
|
| You seem to be completely out of touch with reality and I
| envy the charmed life you must have led.
| FredPret wrote:
| "Regular exercise can boost your mood if you have
| depression, and it's especially useful for people with
| mild to moderate depression." https://www.nhs.uk/mental-
| health/self-help/guides-tools-and-...
|
| "Exercise is as effective as antidepressants in some
| cases." - https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-
| mood/exercise-is-an-...
|
| "Depression and anxiety: Exercise eases symptoms"
| https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-
| conditions/depression/in...
|
| For serious cases that can't be helped by exercise, there
| is professional help, including medication.
|
| For no cases at all are illegal drugs / self-medication
| the answer.
|
| For anything that ever goes wrong with a complex, self-
| adjusting system, we should start with light-touch
| interventions that align with the natural pathways of
| that system. Serious interventions are for serious
| problems only.
| broscillator wrote:
| "as effective as antidepressants" does not say much at
| all, antidepressants are very tricky
|
| "boost your mood" has almost nothing to do with
| depression, depression runs a lot deeper.
|
| Have you ever been depressed? Have you ever taken
| psychedelics?
| eagleinparadise wrote:
| It's too bad as a society we can't embrace psychedelics (yet).
| Yes, it's super fun and there is potential for abuse.
|
| But we are *missing* out on so much learning... of ourselves, how
| to improve things in society, on how to heal, and be better
| humans to each other. Anyone who has experience with psychs knows
| what I'm trying to say.
|
| I think people become more kind and caring after these kinds of
| experiences.
|
| It'd be nice to see western culture adapt it's own version
| "shaman" culture that emphasizes deep exploration of ones self.
| We're getting closer to this very slowly (more people doing
| therapy, more interest in wellness, early glimpses of in-person
| psychedelic "healthcare").
| wutwutwat wrote:
| It's interesting seeing all of the support in this post about
| MDMA, while methamphetamine has such an ugly stigma associated
| with it.
|
| Yet folks often don't even realize the "MA" in "MDMA" is in fact,
| methamphetamine. Meth is just a stimulant, while MDMA is a
| psychedelic, making you trip. It's weird that the stimulant has
| such a bad reputation, but not the one that literally will cause
| you to see and experience things that do not exist, which has
| that big ole junkie drug meth in it even!
|
| Not defending meth, or any drug for that matter. I'm just
| pointing out the weird bias we have with things. For some reason
| meth is an outcask, yet many "acceptable" drugs include meth and
| people don't even really know that. Take meth to a party and get
| kicked out or be looked at like a junkie. Take MDMA to a party
| and you're a hero. Even with drugs, we find a way to create a
| pecking order
| barbs wrote:
| Whilst your point about lateral violence is valid, your
| reasoning is ignorant. MDMA might be molecularly similar to
| meth, they are different drugs with different effects. Also,
| the term "junkie" is stigmatizing.
| rgmerk wrote:
| That's a very strange argument.
|
| When was the last time you heard of MDMA-fuelled crime sprees?
| callalex wrote:
| This is the same old busted argument that people use to
| describe methylphenidate (Ritalin) as meth and pretend everyone
| with the mental illness ADHD is just a junkie.
| ipnon wrote:
| This is a dangerous analogy because single atom differences in
| a molecule can change it from a medicine to a poison. While all
| drugs are not problems in themselves, only in how they are used
| in individuals and society, it would not be wise to extrapolate
| from a positive MDMA experience that consuming methamphetamine
| is a sound course of action.
|
| Do your research folks!
| mtreis86 wrote:
| Just to pile on, change in chirality can also result in
| wholly different chemicals.
| tredre3 wrote:
| > It's interesting seeing all of the support in this post about
| MDMA, while methamphetamine has such an ugly stigma associated
| with it.
|
| That's because having similar names does not make them similar
| in any way. "M D M A" isn't a list of ingredients, it doesn't
| contain methamphetamine. They have some chemical similarity,
| but their effects are very different. Once you understand this,
| you can see that people chastising meth but liking mdma aren't
| being hypocrites.
| kortex wrote:
| > That's because having similar names does not make them
| similar in any way.
|
| Well yes, but actually no. Right answer, but the work to get
| there is a little off.
|
| MDMA is MethyleneDioxy MethAmphetamine. And MethAMPhetAmine
| is n-methyl alpha-methyl phenethylamine (chemists love
| portmanteaus). So it's literally a methamphetamine core with
| a methylenedioxy bridge. That structural similarity gives
| MDMA _some_ similarity in activity to MA, which itself works
| due to its similarly to dopamine and epinephrine.
|
| Structural similarities give you a good _guess_ but you
| really have to test the binding affinities on their own.
| There are substituted phenethylamines which have barely any
| activity.
|
| MA itself has found therapeutic uses in treating ADHD and
| narcolepsy. Side note: this is why NO drug should ever be
| "Schedule I - no medical uses". How can you ever predict a
| lack of future medical uses? Cannabis, psilocybin, LSD, MDMA,
| ibogaine, these have all found therapeutic uses, yet are
| sched I.
| renewiltord wrote:
| It's weird but Fritz Haber pioneered the use of a chemical
| weapon that people just casually flavor their food with. Table
| salt has Chlorine in it, guys!
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| MDMA can be incredibly therapeutic when used judiciously and
| responsibly. It is a remarkable anti-depressant which works very
| quickly, it can really open you up to exploring difficult issues
| in your life. It's not without its risks, and it's by no means a
| panacea. But still, worthy of further study and investigation.
| flanked-evergl wrote:
| I'm highly sceptical of the suggestion that if we just all take
| MDMA the increasingly fractured world will somehow re-unite. I
| think reading Karl Popper's open society and its enemies will be
| much more productive, as that will help you understand the reason
| for the division.
|
| It's as my old pappy used to say, you can't fix problems with
| more MDMA that wasn't created by a lack of MDMA.
| kortex wrote:
| > if we just all take MDMA the increasingly fractured world
| will somehow re-unite.
|
| Seems like a strawman. No one (except for maybe that one
| spunyun wook at the festival whose life and identity revolves
| around entheogens and entactogens) is seriously suggesting we
| all just have to take some Soma and sing kumbaya. These are
| useful tools, which need to be applied in the right context
| (not specifically clinical, maybe Burning Man is the right
| context) to be efficacious.
|
| > It's as my old pappy used to say, you can't fix problems with
| more MDMA that wasn't created by a lack of MDMA.
|
| Again, weird strawman. That's like saying you can't fix asthma
| with albuterol/budesonide because it wasn't created by an
| albuterol or budesonide deficiency. Dents in a car aren't
| caused by a lack of dent-pullers. Quite often the solution is
| not the exact inverse of the cause. Lateral problem solving is
| key.
| ainiriand wrote:
| I agree with that perspective. I did some mdma when young but
| because I was fairly happy back then it never had any healing
| effect for me. I believe that it could be powerful for some
| people sometimes and I never had any sort of substance
| dependency.
| n4r9 wrote:
| My impression is that healing from a deeply traumatic episode is
| much easier when you feel security, openness, and self-love. MDMA
| provides a big boost to all of these, and therapists were finding
| it extremely useful in the ~~1960's~~ [edit] 1970's, so it's not
| surprising that it's finding its way back to serious
| consideration after years of being pushed to the underground.
|
| BTW the article is a little US-centric; in the UK it's usually
| called Mandy or MD ("emdee") rather than Molly.
| osullivj wrote:
| UK too; my first dose was in 88, we called it E or Ecstasy
| then. Never heard it called Mandy in the UK, but then I'm 50+.
| brandall10 wrote:
| Agreed. Small correction - it wasn't known to be used in any
| therapeutic capacity until the late 70s after Alexander Shulgin
| first synthesized it and exposed it to broader academic
| circles.
| n4r9 wrote:
| Thanks - edited.
| rachelnuwer wrote:
| Author of the book that the review article is about here: The
| book does get deep into the British scene and the pivotal role
| it's played over the years in terms of culture, science and
| prohibition. UK is definitely a crucial part of MDMA's story!
| sysadm1n wrote:
| > it's finding its way back to serious consideration after
| years of being pushed to the underground
|
| It was used in a therapy-like way for all those (underground)
| years, not strictly for dancing/clubs/house parties. People had
| informal couples therapy, or trauma therapy where painful
| memories surfaced and they could be dealt with in a safe space
| free of inhibitions. Only now it's more formal and the doctors
| are involved.
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| It was surprising how often I'd be talking to a _complete
| stranger_ at a nightclub and we'd just start sharing
| childhood traumatic experiences in between trying to id
| tracks.
| [deleted]
| orasis wrote:
| "I Feel Love" was a fantastic book, written in a very
| professional journalistic tone. It sits well along side Michael
| Pollan's "How to Change Your Mind".
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Careful selling this shit, Capitalists!
|
| Any drug that heals trauma makes people content and secure.
|
| They won't be addicted to alcohol, tobacco, television, mindless
| games, or any of the other drugs for sale.
|
| They'll settle for what they have, stop chasing rainbows of
| wealth and fame.
|
| Now they won't work in your factories 24/7, running an economy
| that nobody really needs.
|
| They'll stop listening to all the fear-mongering propaganda.
|
| They'll start talking to each other, face to face, bypassing all
| the apparatus of interpersonal surveillance.
|
| They'll start helping _each other_ , cutting dependency on your
| mediation.
|
| You can't sell them crap they don't need for money they don't
| have.
|
| And if they stop living in debt and fear, now you can't control
| them.
|
| There's a reason we have a "War on drugs".
| dirtybirdnj wrote:
| +1 for living a life that's not driven by fear
|
| Or at least a pat on the back to those who strive to do this
| and still keep falling short. Keep going don't give up.
| Permit wrote:
| > They won't be addicted to alcohol, tobacco, television,
| mindless games, or any of the other drugs for sale.
|
| Do you think you're underestimating capitalism a little bit
| here? You can't imagine a world where pharmaceutical companies
| over-prescribe MDMA for financial gain?
| Euphorbium wrote:
| The alternative is mushrooms, and that REALLY makes people
| content and turns people away from capitalism. So they will
| take what they can.
| dopidopHN wrote:
| MDMA has a dark side : the next morning can be really
| depressing for your serotonine vacuumed brain.
|
| With mushroom I never had that.
|
| I stopped taking MD years ago because of how I felt
| afterward.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| > the next morning can be really depressing for your
| serotonine vacuumed brain
|
| Normal for any psycho-stimulant I'd say. Even alcohol. Some
| things are much worse for some people though, so I'd say as
| with all of these powerful things like mushrooms and MDMA;
| very occasionally for planned medicinal rather than
| recreational use. And with the right people, in the the
| right context, safe space, and some free days after to
| chill, reflect and detox.
| lezojeda wrote:
| Never had a really good trip on mushrooms, I really envy all
| those that can enjoy them. I always end up digging up the
| worst traumas and feeling no reason to live.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I'd seek therapy to resolve that, maybe psychedelic
| integration therapy if the re-traumatization is an issue
| you've faced after having these experiences. I've been
| sending people to a clinic which has this as a focus - they
| definitely don't administer psychedelics but they do a
| pretty good at helping people who have gone through such
| difficult experiences. You can find practitioners who can
| help in your area through this site [1]
|
| [1] https://psychedelic.support/
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| I dunno man, drugs are fun and enlightening and all but they
| aren't /that/ magical. the war on drugs has only been going on
| for some decades, societies have been fucked up for millenia.
| the everyday world would be a lot more colorful, but its gonna
| take a lot more to reach this nirvana you paint than widespread
| mdma or other psychedelic use.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| > drugs ... aren't /that/ magical.
|
| You're right. I'm just kinda mixing up some Bill Hicks and
| some Erik Fromm in a mash. Truth is, we learned it in the
| 60s, that chemical enlightenment road just loops back to
| Dodge.
|
| But I'm kicking up stones to see where they land, because of
| the cloying contradiction that remains at the heart of our
| lives. People want to feel good. They want good mental
| health. Free from anxiety and self-loathing. I think it was
| Frank Zappa who said good mental health is the most urgent
| need of our times, and that everything else would fall into
| place (politics, economy) if we can just stop being
| collectively mad. And Zappa hated drugs IIRC.
|
| Like Fromm, I think he's right though. It starts at the
| bottom, not with individual _happiness_ , but simply with
| individual _wellness_. Wellness being freedom from the
| enormous circus of corporate and technological misery we 're
| all immersed in, which feeds on trauma and insecurity.
|
| The idea, that other people's wellness could be a threat, is
| clearly out there. I mean, someone just equated all the
| horrors and human failings of modernity with a specific
| religious faith in a cheap potshot at my philosophy. It
| doesn't get much more reactionary (and bigoted) than that.
|
| There's more than a few psychoanalysts who have said that
| valuing wellness of mind in society that is fuelled by
| madness is quite a radical position.
| msla wrote:
| Capitalism is just fine selling drugs that cause brain damage,
| of which MDMA is one.
|
| Also, we don't need your antisemitism here.
| mattnewton wrote:
| Antisemitism? Was there an edit or did I just not pick up on
| a dog whistle?
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| No edit. Seriously wtf?
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| hmmmm, interpreting that as antisemitic is almost as wild as
| blaming the war on drugs for all of societies problems
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| I literally think that MDMA saved my life. I was absolutely
| _broken_ when I came out of high school -- bullied at home and at
| school just relentlessly for 12 years. Completely unable to
| relate to other human beings, afraid of being touched, never had
| a girl friend or any kind of real friendship.
|
| Going to rave and having people -- strangers! -- just hug me, and
| listen to me, and I'd listen to them and we could just talk to
| each other like normal people without this undercurrent of
| constant anxiety and fear of rejection. It was a miracle to me.
| And I mean that in both the banal sense and the religious sense.
| It wasn't just the interpersonal aspects of it, but like --
| having these feelings of joy and happiness and seeing the beauty
| of the world wash over me in almost an overwhelming way despite
| the fact that absolutely _nothing_ had really changed about the
| world made me understand how much of my own unhappiness was
| internal, that i could _choose_ to see the world in a better
| light all the time -- not just when I was on drugs, but at any
| time, it was just a matter of perspective, and something that you
| have some level of control over.
|
| I went from being someone who was almost completely isolated and
| withdrawn to learning how to DJ, to DJing at the _very same club_
| that opened the world to me. I had a girlfriend within a few
| months, I had dozens of friends, I had a better paying job within
| a year, largely through connections I made at the club. I
| honestly think I'd have just turned into a homeless alcoholic or
| something without that experience. I have a hard time even
| imagining where I'd have ended up. I barely recognize the person
| that walked into that club the first night.
|
| It's a tragedy that this drug isn't available to more people. I
| overdid it. A lot of people over did it, but 20 years later I
| don't regret any of it for a moment, even the bad nights.
| dopidopHN wrote:
| What's your take on the << next morning >> of mdma ?
|
| I find those really depressing and they can completely
| outweighs the benefit of the night for me.
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| It's not really the next morning, there was usually a "glow"
| that lasted for a couple of days. It was mostly midweek that
| the depression sunk in, and really that only happened to me
| after I had been going to raves regularly for a year.
|
| Mostly for me it was a matter of understanding what the cause
| of that was. But yes, over time it was what stopped from me
| from continuing to take it, but all the benefit I really got
| out of it, therapeutically, happened in the first 2 or 3
| times I took it, before I ever had the mid-week crash.
| Everything after that was just for fun.
| Jagerbizzle wrote:
| How much sleep are you getting afterwards? If it's laced with
| any type of amphetamine, probably not very much, and from my
| personal experience, the sleep dep feels like the main
| problem and not the after-effects of the substance itself.
| zeendo wrote:
| I read about NAC (N-Acetyl L-Cysteine) in various forums and
| it seems to be a relatively safe antioxidant that does
| wonders for MDMA after effects and "losing the magic". YMMV
| but I highly recommend.
| n4r9 wrote:
| There are some ways to mitigate this, although they're not
| always possible depending on the setting:
|
| * Get a good sleep, ideally at about the same time as usual.
| If you normally sleep 11pm-7am then obviously a 4am-8am sleep
| is obviously going to have an effect on your mood. The closer
| you can get to your normal routine, the better. This might
| mean taking it pretty early, which doesn't necessarily make
| sense in a club setting.
|
| * Take magnesium before/during the high to prevent gurning
| (if this is a problem). A sore jaw makes everything worse the
| next day.
|
| * Take 5-HTP as soon as you wake up.
|
| * Either sleep in the same house as the people you dropped
| with, or get back together as soon as possible in the
| morning. This is essential to processing the experience in a
| positive, social way.
|
| * Don't have anything scheduled involving work or family for
| at least a couple of days afterwards, ideally a week.
| walthamstow wrote:
| > * Either sleep in the same house as the people you
| dropped with, or get back together as soon as possible in
| the morning. This is essential to processing the experience
| in a positive, social way.
|
| Looking back on my raving career, now retired of course,
| this is fantastic advice and something I would never have
| thought to articulate.
| tempsy wrote:
| on 5-HTP the general guideline is to _not take_ it within
| 24 hours of using MDMA. likely to do with avoiding
| serotonin syndrome.
|
| https://rollsafe.org/mdma-
| supplements/?_ga=2.33100862.187361...
| [deleted]
| mfitton wrote:
| I can really relate to this. Thanks for sharing your story.
| SeanAnderson wrote:
| My experiences echo this nearly to a T.
|
| I skipped a few grades in school and became a social outcast. I
| was hazed out of one school entirely and sort of gave up on
| understanding people for a while. My first experience on MDMA
| was like a physical light switch was flicked on inside of my
| body. I went from only wearing black/white/gray clothes to
| being the one known to wear loud colors and really putting
| myself out there visually and socially. I ended up feeling the
| need to move away from my home town because I felt "too
| popular." I couldn't go for a run without someone stopping on
| the side of the street to offer me a ride to wherever. This
| sort of behavior continued into music festivals where I learned
| to manage and lead large scale groups of ~strangers in tough
| environments/confusing mindsets.
|
| I thought these skills wouldn't prove valuable in the work
| world, but, to my elation and surprise, it was the opposite. A
| lot of engineers are really smart but a bit weaker on the
| political and social side of things. I undoubtedly nuked a few
| brain cells acquiring all these experiences, but hey I can
| still code just fine _and_ now I love getting in there, talking
| to people about their feelings and communicating about how I am
| feeling, and do so with a belief that others are interested in
| hearing /seeing me.
|
| 10/10 would do it all over again.
| rafaelmn wrote:
| > I overdid it. A lot of people over did it
|
| Growing up in a poor neighborhood I had friends who were going
| to parties at like 13/14. MDMA, speed, LSD.
|
| Still good friends with some of them and they are mostly
| ashamed of that period, and you can see severe permanent
| effects of abuse on some (again we knew each other since
| childhood).
|
| I tried what I could get my hands on because I was curious, and
| I would go out with this crowd occasionally. It's far from
| roses and rainbows - getting emotionally unstable people riled
| up - I've seen/heard scary shit.
|
| You can draw parallels to alcohol - drinking can be great for
| socialisation - and alcohol can ruin people, so I guess you
| could say it's unfair that one is illegal.
|
| But I don't share the sentiment either way - "I wish
| alcohol/drugs were available to more people" is not something
| I'd like to see in practice.
| mistermann wrote:
| > You can draw parallels to alcohol
|
| Fossil fuels, etc.
|
| > But I don't share the sentiment either way - "I wish
| alcohol/drugs were available to more people" is not something
| I'd like to see in practice.
|
| Fits the fossil fuels (and modern culture?) analogy nicely!
| fragmede wrote:
| empath-nivana's life was saved through illicit MDMA usage.
| They didn't shoot up a school or music concert, didn't send
| out mysogynistic screeds to women online, didn't abuse or
| kill a sex worker, didn't commit suicide, or any other number
| of awful things going on in the world committed by
| emotionally blunted individuals. I wish the emotional
| revitalization that comes from MDMA, the healing, being able
| to step away from the trauma, the openness, the vulnerability
| - I wish that on everybody.
|
| I wish people were well-adjusted and have fulfilling and
| happy lives. If it takes broadly available MDMA to get there,
| then so be it.
| jstarfish wrote:
| > I wish the emotional revitalization that comes from MDMA,
| the healing, being able to step away from the trauma, the
| openness, the vulnerability - I wish that on everybody
| [...] If it takes broadly available MDMA to get there, then
| so be it.
|
| > Completely unable to relate to other human beings, afraid
| of being touched, never had a girl friend or any kind of
| real friendship.
|
| I'm convinced that most people identifying with this don't
| know how to articulate what their problem is. The magic
| words: you're struggling with _intimacy._
|
| Where MDMA isn't an option, intimacy coaches ( _not_
| prostitutes-by-another-name, and _not_ sexual surrogacy)
| specialize in this domain and can help you navigate these
| very issues.
| naasking wrote:
| Alcohol is not life changing like MDMA. Has alcohol ever
| received any kind of therapeutic recognition, or emergency
| use authorization to treat PTSD like MDMA? This is a poor
| analogy IMO.
| korse wrote:
| I'm pretty sure alcohol's benefits have just been
| acknowledged since antiquity. Social lubrication/chemical
| courage and delaying pain... both of which can help
| immensely with the bottom-most tiers in Maslow's hierarchy
| (physiological and safety). MDMA arguably assists with
| achieving some of the higher tiers, however it seems like a
| relatively niche solution that many people do not handle
| well.
| theobromananda wrote:
| As someone who has used a larger number of psychedelics,
| MDMA, ayahuasca and so on - yes, alcohol at 16 for a few
| years was absolutely life changing for many of the same
| reasons: increased sociability and being able to talk to
| people uninhibitely about many things. I didn't overdo it
| and haven't drunken alcohol in years.
| naasking wrote:
| Alcohol can be life changing, but I said "not life
| changing like MDMA". All of the sociability benefits you
| received from alcohol are achievable via other means that
| don't require the use of drugs, like CBT and plain old
| practice/experience. That is simply NOT the case for MDMA
| and depression and PTSD. If you think so, then show me
| examples of alcohol making someone relieved, normal and
| happy in 30 mins after literally years of depression and
| suicide attempts. They just aren't in the same league.
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| > Has alcohol ever received any kind of therapeutic
| recognition, or emergency use authorization to treat PTSD
| like MDMA?
|
| The regulatory status is irrelevant IMO. Personally, I know
| that many of the most profound experiences of my life have
| been mediated by alcohol. My life has certainly been
| changed by it.
| bradlys wrote:
| How much of this is MDMA and how much of this is just having a
| welcoming scene where people emphasize physical touch and
| friendly interaction? How much of this is just living in a
| society that otherwise doesn't allow for that in other ways?
| [deleted]
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| It's a combination of the scene and the MDMA opening me up to
| the experience. I would have been _freaked the fuck out_ by
| random people hugging me without it.
|
| But your point is why I am skeptical of the value of MDMA as
| like a one-on-one therapeutic tool. For me, it was not just
| that I was having the best night of my life, but that I was
| surrounded by people who were also having the best night of
| their lives. You could just look around and make eye contact
| with a random person and you both _knew_.
|
| And that community didn't just _happen_. It was the product
| of lots of people curating that community -- the djs, the
| promoters, the dancers, etc. You can't just throw drugs into
| any random pool of people and expect that kind of magic to
| happen. There was an artistry to it.
| the_gipsy wrote:
| About 100%. The expectation that people in this environment
| are on mdma makes it so.
| bradlys wrote:
| I'm just saying, I've been in similar situations without
| the drugs involved. There are people out there who act like
| that and will be like that with each other without MDMA.
| Myself included.
| JPws_Prntr_Fngr wrote:
| > how much of this is just having a welcoming scene where
| people emphasize physical touch and friendly interaction?
|
| Most of it, I would bet. From experience, I can say a night
| out on MDMA can be almost as lonely/alienating as one on
| ethanol. Still super interesting and fun, but nothing as
| enlightening as the positive anecdotes above.
|
| Example: if you're physically attractive, but socially
| stunted, an MDMA night will give you a taste of The Other
| Side. If your situation is the other way around, guess what -
| physically unattractive people are still very much unwelcome
| on a dance floor, and people will still make that clear to
| you.
|
| This shit is tricky, which is why we need more experienced
| users in society who can guide newcomers through it.
| davidguetta wrote:
| Really good experience myself here.
|
| The key overall is always to not abuse and that should be
| adressed by education, not just mindlessly prohibit everything
| (even tho it's not too bad to forbid stuff somethimes).
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| > The key overall is always to not abuse and that should be
| adressed by education
|
| Who is to say what's "abuse" really.
|
| Why would taking MDMA in a therapist chair be "medicine" and
| taking it and dancing all night long be "abuse"? Because
| that's how they're going to try and control it. I'm not even
| sure which would be healthier for you or more effective.
| Like, obviously there's a point where it's too much, but if
| you let the "medical establishment" define it, it'll
| definitely be defined as any point in which people might
| actually be having fun.
| tempsy wrote:
| Because MDMA is highly neurotoxic if you're not careful
| with supplementation and do it too often?
|
| General rule of thumb is to not even do it more than 1x-2x
| a year. Even then most people say that it doesn't feel as
| good over time.
| naasking wrote:
| The claimed neurotoxicity was based on flawed study that
| has since been retracted [1]. They mistakenly used
| methamphetamine instead of MDMA.
|
| [1] https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1074501
| tempsy wrote:
| That is one study from 2002. There's dozens of more
| recent studies on this subject. By neurotoxicity the
| question is does frequent use of MDMA make it more
| difficult for your brain to produce serotonin? Research
| and anecdotal evidence from recreational users point to
| this being the case.
|
| When your brain becomes dependent on a drug that fries
| your brain temporarily with serotonin you will not feel
| as good without the drug if your brain and body becomes
| dependent on it to trigger normal serotonin production.
| Doesn't sound like a fun time to me.
|
| https://dancesafe.org/drug-information/is-mdma-
| neurotoxic/#1
| naasking wrote:
| Your own link says that the axons fairly quickly regrow
| from any damage, if it occurs at all which is not at all
| a settled matter, and it further says that large scale
| studies show no differences between former users and non-
| users. Again, these claims of neurotoxicity are
| exaggerated.
| tempsy wrote:
| ...in your mind frequent long term use of MDMA has no
| negative long term side effects?
| naasking wrote:
| Neither of us have any idea of the side-effects of
| undefined "frequent", "long-term" use, that's my point,
| and contrary to what you claimed. No serious harm is
| apparent from the sparse evidence we do have though.
| tempsy wrote:
| Bizarre logical reasoning. So because no one has
| completed a 100 year study on a powerful drug the default
| should be to feel safe using it long term instead of not
| using it?
|
| And no there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from long
| term users who never feel the same after frequent use,
| even after stopping. But again by your logical reasoning
| because there's no peer reviewed study on humans that
| sufficiently backs this up people should ignore that.
| naasking wrote:
| What's bizarre is how you repeatedly misconstrue someone
| pointing out that your claims of harm from MDMA are not
| supported by evidence, into claims that it's perfectly
| safe to use with no qualifications.
|
| > And no there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from long
| term users who never feel the same after frequent use,
| even after stopping.
|
| People who use one drug often use others, and often
| concurrently. People with a history of mental health are
| also drawn to drugs. We use science to disentangle
| confounders like this.
|
| I have no problem with people advising caution in using
| powerful drugs, and advising against them fully if they
| have a family history of mental health issues. I do have
| a problem when people try to use flawed science to give
| this caution a false sense of authority, or that elevate
| anecdotes to the level of general scientific advice.
| projectazorian wrote:
| > And no there's plenty of anecdotal evidence from long
| term users who never feel the same after frequent use,
| even after stopping.
|
| Aging is a thing. Most adults don't "feel the same" after
| the passage of a "long term" span of time, regardless of
| their level of substance use.
| tick_tock_tick wrote:
| Do you have any evidence that it does? Sounds like you're
| trying to straw-man people because you have zero evidence
| that isn't just straight up fraud.
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| From personal experience of having done it almost weekly
| for a long stretch (multiple years), and then quitting
| cold turkey, it took me a few months to fully land back
| in reality, but I've since had a successful career as a
| software developer, with a happy and healthy family life,
| and that's typical of the people who I knew back them
| that I've kept in touch with.
|
| Whatever the serotonin generation issues are (and I
| definitely had them, and that's why I stopped taking it),
| they seem to recover over time.
| fragmede wrote:
| On the spectrum from never doing it, to every weekend
| until your brain stops being able to produce serotonin,
| how often would you recommend as reasonable?
| tempsy wrote:
| I'm not claiming I know the long term negative side
| effects on MDMA use, but like any powerful drug why would
| I not suspect something that floods your brain with
| serotonin would not end up in a situation where your
| brain anticipates the drug and creates an dependency
| situation where your brain does not produce serotonin in
| normal levels without it? Anecdotal evidence from long
| term users in MDMA forums suggest lots of frequent users
| don't ever feel the same without it.
|
| Bizarre we have gotten to the point where the default is
| "take powerful drug because no scientist has proven not
| to in a century long twin study!!"
| fragmede wrote:
| Long term abuse to the point that "users don't ever feel
| the same without it" is quite concerning and very
| problematic, but once or twice over the course of a
| lifetime seems fine.
|
| In absence of a century long twin study, I'd weigh the
| opinions of millions of people who've taken it a few
| times, over the secondary source of someone who read
| something off some random Internet forum (reddit?) from
| people who are seriously abusing it (like Thursday,
| Friday, Saturday every weekend).
| kortex wrote:
| > but like any powerful drug why would I not suspect
| something that floods your brain with serotonin would not
| end up in a situation where your brain anticipates the
| drug and creates an dependency situation where your brain
| does not produce serotonin in normal levels without it?
|
| Because this is such an incredible oversimplification of
| what goes on in the brain. SSRIs also dramatically
| increase the overall serotonin flux, to the point where
| if you quit suddenly, the brain is left in a deficit, the
| effects of which can be quite unpleasant. And contrary to
| the "serotonin is happy chemical, more serotonin = more
| better" myth, the net result of all this serotonin is
| that 5-HT receptors actually _downregulate_. Ultimately,
| the result of all these changes is an increase in
| neuroplasticity.
|
| Blasting 5-HT receptors (eg by LSD, psilocin, etc, and to
| an extent MDMA) is also shown to increase
| neuroplasticity.
|
| Neurotoxicity and psychopharmacology are _extremely_
| complicated. It 's beyond reductionist to say "drug
| floods brain ergo bad".
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| You are wrong. Your own link gets a claim to
| neurotoxicity which is 'backed up' by this very same
| flawed study:
|
| [1] Hatzidimitriou, McCann, and Ricaurte, "Altered
| serotonin innervation patterns in the forebrain of
| monkeys treated with MDMA seven years previously: Factors
| influencing abnormal recovery", The Journal of
| Neuroscience, June 15, 1999, 19(12):5096-5107. Abstract.
|
| The same Ricaurte that 'accidentally' gave excessive
| methamphetamine to monkeys intsead of MDMA. The same
| study.
| tempsy wrote:
| so you'd have no problem recommending indefinite weekly
| use of MDMA because in your mind no one has proven
| there's long term negative side effects?
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| Don't strawman me. I just pointed out your link relies on
| a totally flawed study.
|
| I recommended nothing, and I didn't say there were no
| negative side effects. See HN guidelines please.
| mistermann wrote:
| Does this imply that Science, _similar to_ drugs
| (religion, etc), can also distort human perception of
| reality?
|
| What's next, internet discussion forums? Is anywhere
| safe??? :)
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| I do it once a week when I can get it, over long periods.
| No impairment and it feels fine, no "doesn't feel as
| good" happening.
|
| (Personal observation, everyone's different though)
| fragmede wrote:
| The "medical establishment" is full of people who like to
| get high off molly and dance the night away on their
| weekends. If the medical establishment can say, with
| science, "this is, chemically speaking, how much you can
| do, and how often, and here are the supplements to take, so
| you don't lose the magic", that would be amazing!
| elmomle wrote:
| Nobody in this thread said that taking it to dance all
| night is abuse; dance can be amazingly cathartic.
|
| I've known people who did it nearly daily for long
| stretches, and others who would only take it once a month
| and take Prozac after to mitigate and potential damage. I'm
| not saying that the latter is the only non-abusive way of
| taking it, but clearly the former would constitute abuse.
| xp84 wrote:
| This is one of the most tragic things to me about
| psychoactive substances in general. I've had and heard of
| very significant positive experiences from substances,
| and yet also, obviously, many people become alcoholics
| all the time, or become barely-functioning stoners who
| "wake and bake" every single day and are incapable of
| really anything anymore.
|
| I think it's critical that all of us (however we feel
| about the 'morality' of doing drugs) have the humility to
| acknowledge that there isn't any policy "solution" to
| these problems. These are humanity problems (really,
| animal problems, since any animal can experience
| addiction and chemical dependence).
|
| It is arguably deeply unfair to prohibit people from
| experiencing the best that these substances have to offer
| (and I don't just mean in a therapy setting). But it's
| also dangerous to "let" them get in over their heads.
| Unfortunately though, the verb "let" is doing a lot of
| work in that sentence. Even well-meaning and trusted
| parents aren't able to effectively _guarantee_ their
| children 's safety (either with prohibition or with a
| more lenient, discussion-based strategy). How much less
| effective then, is a government which isn't and can't
| ever be completely trusted by its citizens? No matter
| what, we won't 'solve' this with some perfect policy.
| empath-nirvana wrote:
| > I've had and heard of very significant positive
| experiences from substances, and yet also, obviously,
| many people become alcoholics all the time, or become
| barely-functioning stoners who "wake and bake" every
| single day and are incapable of really anything anymore.
|
| _Almost everyone_ who uses recreational drugs or drinks
| stops drinking or doing drugs _on their own_ without any
| intervention. There's this idea that's been propagated
| that drugs are this evil demon that you can never shake
| once you get addicted, because for people who deal with
| drug addicts professionally, _all they ever see_ are
| people who haven't quit drugs almost by definition.
| However, those drug addicts are a _small_ percentage of
| all the people who have used drugs.
|
| https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/matters-of-
| substance/archi...
|
| Drug policy is basically based on the survivorship bias
| fallacy.
| kortex wrote:
| Enlightening article. Indeed, the high comorbidity of
| substance abuse disorders with other developmental,
| behavioral, and/or executive function disorders, suggests
| that a lot of it stems directly from untreated congenital
| conditions. Often the lack of treatment and exacerbation
| of the condition stem directly from socioeconomic
| conditions.
|
| In other worlds, well-adjusted people with support
| networks rarely "get addicted" to drugs (as if they are
| some sort of cursed potion that anyone who consumes is
| afflicted).
| _a_a_a_ wrote:
| In some ways this sounds very similar to my situation (in other
| ways very different) and it took more than one drug to fix,
| including prescription antidepressants which took away the
| appalling, appalling nightmare depression[1] but ultimately it
| was MDMA that kind of pushed my brain off its rails and onto a
| new and vastly better track. I'll never have a normal life nor
| will my siblings but at least it's somewhat tolerable now.
|
| [1] (thanks parents! You pair of evil cunts. At least one of
| you knew exactly what you were doing, and the other one just
| watched as it happened in front of you and did nothing)
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| Interesting how experiences can be so different. I have
| experienced the, technically, happiest moments of my life while
| on MDMA, but ultimately it changed nothing. Like pretty much
| any drug, it's temporary, fake, extreme happiness at the cost
| of your brain permanently melting from using it too much.
|
| I took nothing away from it but increased insight into how
| unnaturally happy one can be (on drugs) and how incredibly
| dull, depressing and soul crushing the average work day is.
|
| Would I recommend others trying it? Yes, sure, it's fantastic
| -you gonna experience happiness on it you CAN NOT get without
| drugs, that's an interesting experience.
| sibeliuss wrote:
| I'm so happy for you. I've known a few people with similar
| stories, including my mother. Before and After.
| pdntspa wrote:
| I found MDMA similarly eye-opening, dealing with depression and
| anxiety. It was the first time I truly felt free of anxiety,
| like it just vanished and I could feel somewhat normal. This
| was many many years ago, and since then I use these experiences
| as a sort of guiding star. It's good to take some every now and
| then to realign and recalibrate with this feeling.
| [deleted]
| MattPalmer1086 wrote:
| Similarly for me, MDMA opened me out to the possibility of
| feeling good _without_ the drug.
|
| Despite the intense good feeling while you are on it, the
| understanding that I am basically OK persists afterwards.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| I'm pretty libertarian when it comes to recreational drugs, but
| I do worry that we're not exploring the mechanism of these
| drugs properly when there is polarization to either those
| seeking prohibition of recreational drugs or those seeking the
| pleasure from the same drugs. I'm of the opinion that if a root
| cause of your issues, and mine, could be established an
| optimized treatment could be determined that maximizes the
| beneficial outcome and minimizes the detrimental. My root cause
| is ADHD / dopamine dysregulation and I respond well to
| medication like Low Dose Naltrexone and Low Dose Modafinil. I
| think for people with my kind of issues we'd benefit much more
| from those than from MDMA even if they are much less fun
| medications to take. It's unfortunate that doctors do a
| terrible job here so the libertarian part of me is very
| thankful for the black/grey markets and I benefit from the self
| experimentation of others, at the same time I think it's
| incumbent on me to let others know about alternatives to MDMA
| that I think are worth exploring.
| localplume wrote:
| [dead]
| siva7 wrote:
| MDMA changed my life in some ways, for better or worse. It
| definitely helped in beating some anxiety.
| stephenitis wrote:
| can you describe worse?
|
| A common side effect I've seen with people who use it too often
| is that it can cause unreasonable expectations of happiness for
| some people who have difficulty coping with happy moments
| passing.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| I read this book written by one of the psychologists who was
| doing early research into psychedelic therapy when I was a kid
| called "Thanatos To Eros, 35 Years of Psychedelic Exploration"
| and it was really interesting. It's still available on maps.org
| (Although they kind of muntzed the formatting) [1] but the
| takeaway is that besides MDMA there's a whole range of other
| substances with a variety of therapeutic merits to explore. MDMA
| may hit a sort of sweet-spot quality for more people to tolerate
| it without adverse reaction kind of sweet spot, however I think
| the substance Stolaroff was most interested in for enhancement of
| insight was actually very small doses of 2c-e (you can ctrl+f for
| it in the link), which I think is something we might end up
| seeing in more scientific investigations as interest grows.
|
| [1] https://maps.org/2014/11/19/thanatos-to-eros-35-years-of-
| psy...
| nick__m wrote:
| I did 2CE a few time in the 2000s, and it was the harshest
| teacher. On 2CE I had incredible hallucination in ritch
| technicolor but if there is anything remotly looking like a
| problem to be addressed in my life, I would mentally suffer
| until I made a plan to adress it. There was no way to ignore or
| rationalize away the problem, like I usually did.
| fer wrote:
| Having done both MDMA and 2C-E (mid 00s were pretty good in
| that sense), in various amounts, I'm not sure I'd agree (or
| disagree, really).
|
| Threshold dosages had noticeable impacts in vision or mindset,
| but I didn't feel anything particularly
| introspective/exploratory. That wasn't until higher dosages,
| and only then I felt like it was a rollercoaster, in the sense
| of intense but very well psychologically attached to the rails.
| But then again, in those dosages I could hear the echo of my
| own voice with 15s delay, and just going to the toilet was an
| adventure full of unexpected events, so I'm not sure how a
| therapist can guide that either.
|
| MDMA on the other hand softens everything from the smaller
| doses to the heavy ones, at least until the amphetamine edge
| starts to take hold.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| What I remember reading about small doses of 2c-e (Maybe in
| this book, maybe somewhere else - My interests have shifted a
| ton over the years to other things) is that the insight
| enhancement is something that actually ends up happening in
| the aftermath of the primary effects of the drug. Day after
| and things start hitting differently kind of effect, that you
| have to go into with intention in a way.
| zoklet-enjoyer wrote:
| 2C-E gave me the most intense open eye visuals. Posters
| turned into cartoons. The linoleum in my bathroom looked like
| swirling chocolate milk. Tracers from my fingers. Breathing
| walls. Intense motion sickness. But psychologically, I almost
| felt sober. I don't remember the dose. I used it a handful of
| times in 2010/2011.
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