[HN Gopher] Hedy Lamarr (2018)
___________________________________________________________________
Hedy Lamarr (2018)
Author : interweb
Score : 132 points
Date : 2023-09-22 13:59 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.womenshistory.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.womenshistory.org)
| dang wrote:
| The submitted title ("An Austrian-American actress/inventor
| pioneered basis for WiFi, GPS, & Bluetooth") was highly
| editorialized, which breaks the HN guideline: " _Please use the
| original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don 't
| editorialize._" -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Submitters: please don't do that. It skews discussion in
| unhelpful ways--and particularly did so in this case. If you want
| to say what you think is important about an article, that's fine,
| but do it by adding a comment to the thread. Then your view will
| be on a level playing field with everyone else's:
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...
| mellosouls wrote:
| Note that this "Austrian-American actress" (I understand the
| helpful wording is aimed at non-buffs who may not recognise the
| name Hedy Lamarr) was a huge star in her day, an equivalent to -
| say - Margot Robbie.
| rurban wrote:
| Bigger than Robbie, much bigger
| MrScruff wrote:
| Yeah, I know more about Hedy Lamarr than I do about Margot
| Robbie even though she was at the peak of her career 40 years
| before I was born.
| shellac wrote:
| Got her own joke name in Blazing Saddles. No greater honour.
| blipvert wrote:
| And, in her gratitude, sued Mel Brooks for $10m!
| IndySun wrote:
| "What the hell are you worried about? This is 1874. You'll
| be able to sue her!"
| kadoban wrote:
| Did she really? That's pretty hilarious tbh...
| virgulino wrote:
| _Mel Brooks explains how he came up with "Hedley" Lamarr_
|
| https://youtu.be/ZEQ3OxYL2Co
| HPsquared wrote:
| And a reference in Half-Life 2, of course
| sbuk wrote:
| She is also the vector drawn face from the old CorelDraw
| marketing.
| https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/791226228268901432/
| CapitalistCartr wrote:
| Wow, I'm old. I know who Hedy is, had to look up Margot Robbie.
| motohagiography wrote:
| The story of Hedy Lamar was an amazing piece of hacker lore to
| discover before the web when culture was mostly confined to paper
| and scarce. I often think makers form a parallel culture with its
| own thread of history. Hacker history like this shows that
| breakthrough technology is the effect of individual minds and
| desire.
| malermeister wrote:
| [flagged]
| noteflakes wrote:
| [flagged]
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Frequency hopping is no small idea to crack because you either
| need a shared codebook (PRNG) or a means of re-keying to an
| ephemeral window of future sequences. Didn't read Lamarr's patent
| but she seems a natural hacker girl taking music boxes apart aged
| 5.
| developer93 wrote:
| Just a hacker huh? Is a female hacker different than a male
| one?
| HL33tibCe7 wrote:
| Like many stories of this kind, the idea that this person
| "pioneered the basis" of these technologies seems massively
| overblown. What she and Antheil patented was a system that used
| frequency hopping to help guide torpedoes, using a piano roll to
| switch between the frequencies. They did not "invent" frequency
| hopping, which had been discussed in the literature for 30 years
| already.
| bnralt wrote:
| Looking at the early Wikipedia pages is fairly telling. From
| the first day that her page is up, Hedy Lamarr had a large
| section devoted to this invention[1]. But her co-inventor's
| Wikipedia only made a brief mention of it for the first several
| years[2]. It seems clear that people were interested in
| exaggerating her contributions in particular.
|
| [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hedy_Lamarr&oldid...
| [2]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=George_Antheil&ol...
| localplume wrote:
| exactly. every single one of these cases is an absolute stretch
| and diminishes the work of the people who actually developed
| it. its historical revisionism at best
|
| at worst its offensive to the person because it suggests they
| were so small minded that they didn't or couldn't actually
| develop the technology to a sufficient enough degree such that
| they are actually associated with it. these people are hidden
| not because they're women, but because they didn't really
| contribute anything at all to the field
| w7b7s7 wrote:
| Yes, this is one of my favorite articles discussing the early
| patents dealing with frequency hopping and spread spectrum.
|
| https://www.americanscientist.org/article/random-paths-to-fr...
| fortran77 wrote:
| And the spread spectrum as used in modern devices is not
| frequency hopping.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Could you explain what it is, then, and how it differs from
| frequency hopping?
| fortran77 wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4I-Qbc_inIc
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| But a piano-roll (presumably of type she discovered in music
| boxes) is quite ingenious solution for synchronised key
| sequences, for the technology of the time. Kinda similar
| analogical transfer going on for the Jacquard loom as early
| "program storage".
| shakow wrote:
| I don't think OP says that her work was not smart or non-
| innovative, merely that presenting it as "pioneering
| frequency hoping" is over the top.
|
| E.g. Hoare did a lot of smart things with Rust bringing real-
| world impact, still you wouldn't write on his epitaph that he
| "pioneered programming languages".
| anonym29 wrote:
| [flagged]
| teh64 wrote:
| The man who "wrote" the code disagrees with your take on
| Katie Bouman:
|
| "While I wrote much of the code for one of these pipelines,
| Katie was a huge contributor to the software; it would have
| never worked without her contributions and the work of many
| others who wrote code, debugged, and figured out how to use
| the code on challenging EHT data."
|
| Btw lines of code != amount of contribution, sad to see this
| kind of take on a supposedly programmer focused site.
|
| https://www.foxnews.com/science/internet-trolls-discredit-
| ka... https://thehill.com/policy/energy-
| environment/438617-white-m...
| brookst wrote:
| [flagged]
| zmgsabst wrote:
| Your comment:
|
| 1. Ignores the historical facts presented.
|
| 2. Demeans and insults the person you're replying to.
|
| That's how triggered bigots tend to reply on these topics,
| when upset that their bigotry is critiqued.
|
| Do better.
| flangola7 wrote:
| [flagged]
| teddyh wrote:
| > _I know several extremely competent women in technical
| roles - like, better than 99% of others in their field
| regardless of gender. None of them EVER self-refer as "women
| in tech", or "women who code"._
|
| One such person's explanation why:
| <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14702676>
| zmgsabst wrote:
| "Pinkwashing" is garden variety bigoted myth making.
|
| And it hurts both men and women -- as bigotry tends to do.
| flangola7 wrote:
| [flagged]
| neilv wrote:
| > _I know several extremely competent women in technical
| roles - like, better than 99% of others in their field
| regardless of gender. None of them EVER self-refer as "women
| in tech", or "women who code"._
|
| FWIW, I know some excellent engineers, technologists,
| professors, etc. who are women, and who also participate in
| programs to address sexism.
|
| We have a long history of really stupid and unjust sexism,
| and that's a lot to dig out of. Different people tackle that
| different ways.
|
| Sometimes I hear of approaches that I don't understand. If I
| tried to make snap judgments of them, I'd hope I'd usually be
| right, but I suspect I'd often be wrong.
|
| In general, I think I'm best off focusing on support of
| things that seem positive.
| jwkpiano1 wrote:
| Except this was an actual real accomplishment, whose out of
| patent idea was used later by the Navy:
| https://physicsworld.com/a/a-tale-of-two-lives/. The
| application was indeed original, as evidenced by the receipt
| of a patent for it. You can argue with how the work is
| described here, but trying to claim it wasn't a real
| accomplishment or is somehow comparable to someone adding a
| bunch of consts is absurd.
| nmz wrote:
| I used to acknowledge, but, I've gotten bitter, I've been
| hearing about Hedy since I joined reddit. which was years
| ago, and I don't even care about frequency hopping, I can
| only be forcefully swallowed propaganda for so long until I
| start actively working against the subject no matter what
| it is.
| HL33tibCe7 wrote:
| It was a real accomplishment, no doubt, but it's not an
| accomplishment of the order that the article claims.
| jwkpiano1 wrote:
| Agreed. The reply I was responding to went way too far in
| the other direction, though, which is why I took issue
| with it.
| w7b7s7 wrote:
| Much better write-up:
|
| https://www.americanscientist.org/article/random-paths-to-
| fr...
|
| There is no proof that the Patent Office ever issued a
| secrecy order regarding her patent during WW2. One small
| detail, but there are large numbers of 'small' details with
| her story that add up to Lamarr's frequency hopping patent
| not being remotely what is being claimed it is now
| (foundation or inspiration of many future inventions), nor
| having wide ranging effects.
|
| Independently thinking up her scheme was very impressive in
| itself. She was a very talented person.
|
| But most coverage of Lamarr is modern propaganda.
| HL33tibCe7 wrote:
| Another thing I find uncomfortable about this kind of
| "pinkwashing" is that it papers over the actual reality of
| history, which is that (with a very small number of
| exceptions) women simply didn't get get the opportunity to be
| "pioneers" in technology, because of the incredibly unfair
| nature of society at the time. In a fairer society, someone
| like Lamarr, who was clearly extremely intelligent and
| curious, might well have gone on to be a pioneer. But that
| wasn't the reality at the time - and we should acknowledge
| that.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| > women simply didn't get get the opportunity to be
| "pioneers"
|
| It is bigger than that.
|
| Virtually no one had that opportunity.
|
| Lamarr was lucky enough to be part of a very small elite
| where _" her father was deputy director of Wiener
| Bankverein, and in the end of his life a director at the
| united Creditanstalt-Bankverein. Her mother, a pianist and
| a native of Budapest, had come from an upper-class
| Hungarian-Jewish family."_. She had a lot more
| opportunities than most of her contemporaries.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| I agree that to put someone on a pedestal simply by dint of
| their gender, race or sexuality does a disservice to that
| group. Would love to see a version of this story in which her
| "just happening to be a fabulously beautiful film star" is a
| marginal remark.
|
| But isn't it the same when we lionise sociopathic,
| charismatic men [0] who "never cared about norms" but end up
| enshitifying the world with their reckless engineering and
| cocaine addled moral ambivalence?
|
| As a "man in tech who eschews the norms" I'm a little
| uncomfortable that my fellow computer scientists might hold
| up Hank Asher as an example of anything but a criminal whose
| mindset is the exemplar of everything we should seek _not_ to
| be as ethical hackers.
|
| Is there a double standard when a woman with talent, charm
| and beauty is seen to succeed _despite_ those qualities,
| whereas a man who is a "lovable rogue" is claimed to succeed
| _because_ of them?
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37612750
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| > But isn't it the same when we lionise sociopathic,
| charismatic men
|
| Yes.
|
| Steve Jobs myth is completely overblown.
|
| Elon Musk is far from being a great entrepreneur, on the
| contrary he's a malevolent reactionary who's greater
| achievement is making people believe that a company that
| profits from selling carbon credits is a car company or a
| tech company or a software company or a battery company,
| depending on who you ask.
|
| Jeff Bezos normalized new more subtle forms of exploitation
| of US workforce.
|
| etc. etc.
| lemper wrote:
| > But isn't it the same when we lionise sociopathic,
| charismatic men [0] who "never cared about norms"
|
| who is this "we" are you referring to? to me, assholes are
| assholes. be it a man, woman, it, or anything in between.
| especially if this person works in adtech and adjacent
| industry.
|
| > my fellow computer scientists might hold up Hank Asher as
| an example of anything but a criminal
|
| seems like a problem with your education system. I think
| there's this thing called ethics, not sure if they teach it
| there.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| > seems like a problem with your education system. I
| think there's > this thing called ethics, not sure if
| they teach it there.
|
| Absolutely correct. There's an awful, awful problem with
| our education system (I am from the UK). It is in ruins,
| completely unfit for purpose in a modern technological
| society.
|
| As for ethics, you're right, we absolutely don't teach
| it. Worse, we actively downplay or avoid it. I speak from
| experience of witnessing that first hand.
|
| The result: a cult of personality, self-aggrandisement,
| conquest, kleptomania, and domination passed-off as
| "business".
|
| I absolutely agree that education has lost its way. Do
| please read my piece about it in the Times HE next week.
| fortran77 wrote:
| [flagged]
| jstarfish wrote:
| This isn't the latest example of anything. Hedy Lamarr's
| interests were the subject of podcasts over a decade ago, and
| books long before that.
|
| This isn't a good example of pinkwashing. There's no harm in
| recognizing the efforts of the underdog. We valorize Nikola
| Tesla despite him living and dying as a failure.
|
| Terry Davis too. Nobody needed TempleOS, but we're proud for
| him for trying.
| HideousKojima wrote:
| You see the same thing with inventions falsely attributed to
| African Americans, like peanut butter and the traffic light,
| while actual awesome inventions by African Americans (like
| the super soaker) often get ignored. Or the video game
| cartridge is a good example. Jerry Lawson didn't invent it,
| but his other impressive engineering work gets ignored and
| instead a lie gets spread.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| She surely was a brilliant mind, but calling her "the mother of
| Wi-Fi" is IMO a bit disingenuous, it is like calling Becquerel
| "the father of the nuclear reactor" because he accidentally
| discovered spontaneous radioactivity.
| peoplefromibiza wrote:
| cannot edit anymore, but after reading dang's comment, I wish
| to emphatise that "mother of the Wi-Fi" is a reference to the
| article content and not the title.
|
| Specifically
|
| _Such achievement has led Lamarr to be dubbed "the mother of
| Wi-Fi" and other wireless communications like GPS and
| Bluetooth._
| coldtea wrote:
| [flagged]
| kvandy wrote:
| Harrumph!
| Brajeshwar wrote:
| Even though I had stumbled/read about Hedy Lamarr earlier, the
| book "How We Got to Now: Six Innovations That Made the Modern
| World"[1] by Steven Johnson was the one that got me to read it in
| detail. The book is exciting and would definitely be one of my
| casual reading suggestions.
|
| 1. https://www.amazon.com/How-We-Got-Now-
| Innovations/dp/1594633...
| tgv wrote:
| Weird choices. Clean water is not really on par with the
| phonograph.
| YoshiRulz wrote:
| TIL Kleiner's pet headcrab in HL2 is named after an inventor. I
| don't much care for the "great man" (great woman in this case)
| view of history, but this is a good story.
| pomian wrote:
| Hedy's Folly, by Richard Rhodes. It's a very good book about Hedy
| Lamar's life and her fame, and work on that patent. It's
| interesting that the book is not mentioned. The author is the
| same one that wrote the Making of the Atomic Bomb, which I
| believe the movie Oppenheimer, was based on. All of his books are
| very interesting, revealing many of the intricacies, that took
| place in recent history, making the world we live in today.
| c0pium wrote:
| Oppenheimer was based on "American Prometheus", thus all the
| Prometheus references.
| kippinitreal wrote:
| True - but Richard Rhodes (author of Hedys Folley) was an
| advisor to Nolan for the film and I imagine his books on
| atomic history were very helpful.
| djoletina wrote:
| Serious question, how is she "-American", she lived and worked in
| the States in the later part of her life, but her roots aren't
| American?
| hackyhacky wrote:
| She became a US citizen in 1953. Source:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr
| djoletina wrote:
| She got US citizenship, this doesn't/shouldn't make her an
| Austrian-American actress since that implies that she has
| American roots.
| hackyhacky wrote:
| You're entitled to your opinion, but the use of the
| "-American" suffix here is consistent with how it is often
| used for immigrants, e.g. a Chinese person who immigrates
| to the US could be described as Chinese-American. Or just
| American. The demonym can reflect both ethnicity and
| citizenship. Identity is complicated.
|
| Moreover, I don't even know what you mean by "roots." The
| US is a country of immigrants. What qualifies as having
| "American roots" in your view?
| djoletina wrote:
| I mean might be wrong to ask this question in a US based
| forum as you're mostly going to be biased, but the
| reality is she is an Austrian that lived in the US. I
| feel like the hyphen changes her identity which she might
| not have agreed with.
|
| Well you used a word that is crucial imho, roots, means
| where you come from, origins. I feel like I tend to have
| libertarian views regarding choosing your identity, which
| includes calling yourself American, Austrian or whatever,
| ultimately it's you that should make this decision. But
| just adding hyphens to people with historical
| significance that decided to move to a country that at
| the time gave them an economic incentive by having the
| best market feels dirty. Especially considering that most
| other countries don't do this.
| hackyhacky wrote:
| So in your view, you're qualified to tell us Hedy's
| preferred demonym, but Wikipedia is not?
| djoletina wrote:
| Where did I do that? I asked how is she -American in my
| OP.
| hackyhacky wrote:
| > I feel like the hyphen changes her identity which _she_
| _might_ _not_ _have_ _agreed_ _with._
|
| Emphasis mine.
|
| Sure sounds like you're speaking on behalf of Hedy.
| djoletina wrote:
| This is a forum and I've brought this up as a topic for
| conversation, I'm expressing my opinion. It's a normal
| use of a forum.
|
| And also, it sounds nothing like I'm doing that. "I feel"
| and "might not" are definitely signs that I'm not
| claiming anything just discussing the topic.
| c0pium wrote:
| You think that she became an American citizen and
| referred to herself as an American actress but didn't
| think of herself as an American? The part we're adding to
| how she described herself is Austrian, not American.
| djoletina wrote:
| Sources please, I'm genuinely curious.
| [deleted]
| medler wrote:
| Calling someone X-American implies that they are a citizen
| or permanent resident of the United States, which she was.
| djoletina wrote:
| If someone has three citizenships, what then?
| hackyhacky wrote:
| Great question. If a person has three citizenships, then
| they have three citizenships.
| medler wrote:
| She lived in the US for over 60 years.
| [deleted]
| gsich wrote:
| Wlan is not using frequency hopping or am I mistaken?
| evgen wrote:
| No, but an early wireless midpoint between nascent wifi
| deployments and really shitty WAP in a world before data over
| cellular networks was Ricochet Networks. Frequency hopping over
| the public bands of the era (900MHz mostly I think) it was able
| to give decent wireless internet in the mid 90s to those of us
| living in supported areas of Silicon Valley. When laptops were
| a new thing and public wifi still years away it was fun 'work
| remote' in some corner of a coffeeshop when everyone else was
| chained to office desktops.
| tgv wrote:
| Unfortunately, mother of a shitty predecessor of wifi doesn't
| quite have the same ring to it.
| epcoa wrote:
| It was, briefly. Long before Wi-Fi was a household name when
| 802.11 (no b) was just standardized for industrial use there
| was an FHSS PHY. I think Proxim or one of the other defunct
| industrial data capture companies sold it into the 2000s.
|
| In any case there's a lot of overlapping commonality in the
| information theory and engineering of frequency hopping and
| more modern SS.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Bluetooth uses frequency hopping. WiFi and GPS do not.
| _joel wrote:
| Yes, otherwise interference would be a right pain (or render it
| unusable completely). This happens for many wireless systems
| (like bluetooth too).
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(page generated 2023-09-24 23:01 UTC)