[HN Gopher] India suspends visas for Canadians as row escalates
___________________________________________________________________
India suspends visas for Canadians as row escalates
Author : vinni2
Score : 75 points
Date : 2023-09-21 11:02 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.com)
| belltaco wrote:
| This has some historical backdrop around anti-India
| terrorists/freedom fighters operating in Canada.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Flight_182#Backgroun...
|
| >Air India Flight 182 was an Air India flight operating on the
| Montreal-London-Delhi-Bombay route. On 23 June 1985, it was
| operated using Boeing 747-237B registered VT-EFO. The aircraft
| suffered a catastrophic decompression mid-air en route from
| Montreal to London, at an altitude of 31,000 feet (9,400 m) over
| the Atlantic Ocean as a result of an explosion from a bomb
| planted by terrorists.[1][2] The remnants of the aircraft fell
| into the sea approximately 190 kilometres (120 miles) off the
| coast of Ireland, killing all 329 people aboard, including 268
| Canadian citizens, 27 British citizens, and 24 Indian
| citizens.[3] The bombing of Air India Flight 182 is the worst
| terrorist attack in Canadian history, the deadliest aviation
| incident in the history of Air India, and was the world's
| deadliest act of aviation terrorism until the September 11
| attacks in 2001
|
| The alleged perpetuators were let go after a lengthy and costly
| trial in 2005.
|
| > Wiretaps by Canada's intelligence agency had been erased before
| they could be used as evidence
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/18/world/canada/canada-india...
|
| >Canada's security agency destroyed wiretapping evidence on
| suspects in the 1985 Air India bombing as part of a "default"
| policy
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/erasing-wiretap-evidence-was-...
|
| I guess the 268 Canadian citizens killed were all or mostly of
| South Asian origin.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| There might be a link between the groups responsible in a 1985
| terrorist attack, and 38y later someone related to the movement
| being (allegedly) assassinated by the Indian government on
| Canadian soil.
|
| But regardless of the allegations against the assassination
| victim, India would have no right to kill someone on Canadian
| soil, no matter the justifications it might have.
|
| Extraterritorial killings are not justifiable, and definitely
| not by events that occurred 38y ago.
|
| Hopefully this is all false and India wasn't involved in the
| murder of this person. But if true, it's inexcusable and paints
| India in a very bad light in term of international reputation.
| eklavya wrote:
| [flagged]
| AYBABTME wrote:
| This is whataboutism, and you imply that extraterritorial
| killing by India on Canadian soil is ok, because Ben Laden.
|
| And so what new status quo are you suggesting by this?
|
| Ben Laden was a well known terrorist and the US never hid
| the fact that they went there and did that. If the same is
| happening here, why isn't India coming up clean and saying
| "yes we killed this guy because he was responsible in XYZ
| grave crime and sorry not sorry". That would at least be
| comparable to the "US/Ben Laden" parallel you're trying to
| make.
| cudgy wrote:
| Perhaps, the poster is referring to assassinations by the
| West being overlooked and/or justified while those
| committed by other countries are vilified and even an
| excuse for the West starting another war, killing
| millions of people in the name of vengeance.
|
| By the way, many "intrajudicial" killings are not
| justified either.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| > Perhaps, the poster is referring to assassinations by
| the West being overlooked and/or justified while those
| committed by other countries are vilified and even an
| excuse for the West starting another war, killing
| millions of people in the name of vengeance.
|
| The situations are different because in the case of Ben
| Laden, the intent of the US was well known and
| publicized, and there was an international warrant for
| his arrest, and the US never denied responsibility. As
| such I don't think it makes sense to compare the
| situations as if they were equal and that it represents
| an application of dual standards.
|
| I'm not saying it was ok (or not ok) to go for Ben Laden.
| I'm saying it's not a comparable situation.
|
| > By the way, many "intrajudicial" killings are not
| justified either.
|
| That's a political position which is defensible and
| thoroughly debated.
| tyrd wrote:
| So you do agree extraterrestrial killing are justified if
| the country says so in advance.
|
| So only India needs to do say aloud we are going to kill
| xyz and that is ok. No reputation lost am I right.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| > So you do agree extraterrestrial killing are justified
| if the country says so in advance.
|
| Whether it's ok or not is a different matter. But it is
| definitely _different_ if you tell the whole world "if we
| find this person, and you don't hand them over and we
| have a warrant, we will kill them on your territory or
| not".
|
| In this case, whoever is harboring the person of interest
| knows fully what's coming, and isn't going to be
| surprised by it. Citizens of the country might be unhappy
| about it, but they will understand that this was coming,
| and it was a risk and the government decided that they
| were going to run that risk.
|
| Whereas killing someone of little significance and
| pretending like nothing. That's the stuff Russia does. So
| yes it's different, and the reputational impact is
| different.
|
| > No reputation lost am I right.
|
| No, you're not right and I'm not saying this.
| belltaco wrote:
| > Whether it's ok or not is a different matter. But it is
| definitely _different_ if you tell the whole world "if we
| find this person, and you don't hand them over and we
| have a warrant, we will kill them on your territory or
| not
|
| I think you're simply not aware of the facts in this
| case. The Indian govt certainly appears to have done the
| first part of what you said, including putting out an
| Interpol notice.
|
| https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/canada-allowed-
| hard...
|
| Meanwhile the Canadian govt lied about when he got
| Canadian citizenship, first stating on Twitter it was
| 2015, and the next day that it was 2007.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| If I'm unaware and about to be educated, I'm up for it.
| tyrd wrote:
| Do you believe that US govt gives advance warning when it
| carries out assacinations. Western govt would have done
| thousands of these kind of operations.
|
| Your orginal assessment is correct. Extraterrestrial are
| not justified and it applies to West as well and foremost
| USA. Whatever Russian have done I assume USA has done
| worse. That is its reputation!
| AYBABTME wrote:
| Well I take offense if India killed someone in Canada.
| And if Canada killed someone in India, I would also take
| offense. I wish none of these parties had such
| disappointing relationships.
| gautamsomani wrote:
| Completely agree with you.
| gautamsomani wrote:
| Its not whataboutism. America did the same thing. And let
| me tell you clearly - someone killed some innocent people
| in India from canada, and then they were taken out
| because the country they are hiding in refused to take
| action against them. Why didn't Canada do anything about
| these Khalistan supporters when India has been clearly
| stating and giving evidence to Canada that they have all
| virtues of terrorists?
| gautamsomani wrote:
| Also, am sure there are lot of people America killed or
| got killed cause it forwarded their cause or it removed a
| thorn. And if you don't believe that, you are clearly
| ill-informed.
| alephnerd wrote:
| He was implicated in this murder in 2022 -
| https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/conspiracy-to-
| kill-...
|
| And a Congress Party MLA was murdered 2 days ago and the
| person who called the hit was in Canada as well - https://ind
| ianexpress.com/article/cities/chandigarh/congress...
|
| The guy who called the hit - Arsh Dalla - is a known
| associate of Nijjar -
| https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/arsh-dalla-
| funded-g...
|
| To be fair, most Indian commentators also assumed the hit was
| indirectly called by the Indian govt when this happened.
| Especially after this former Khalistani turned BJP supporter
| was offed near the same Gurdawara a year ago by some hired
| hitmen - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-
| columbia/ripudaman-si...
|
| It's very much a tit-for-tat gang war that's being further
| enabled by black money, Punjabi politics, and clan politics
| (Jatt versus Bishnoi).
|
| So happy I don't live in Surrey anymore.
| mortureb wrote:
| This changes everything and makes India's actions seem
| reasonable. It's akin to the US taking out an Al-Qaeda
| member in Yemen or Pakistan.
| alephnerd wrote:
| I'd disagree, and plenty of Indian commentators disagreed
| at the time as well [0].
|
| Paying hitmen to kill violent idiots is a bad look. There
| are multiple other levers that could be pushed.
|
| All of this only really started after Lawrence Bishnoi
| started his gang war in Punjab/Haryana/Delhi/Rajasthan.
|
| There's a lot of shifting alliances and blood being
| spilled now that politics in the state of Punjab are in a
| flux after the AAP won and destroyed the entire political
| status quo of Congress versus SAD/BJP.
|
| My gut as someone who has lived in Surrey and has heard
| the stories in Gurdawaras and Mandirs is that this is
| Dawood-Chota Rajan 2.0
|
| [0] - https://theprint.in/opinion/security-code/in-
| hardeep-singh-n...
| morbidious wrote:
| Lawrence Bishnoi did claim responsibility for the 2nd
| killing. But what makes you so sure that the Indian
| government is contracting the hit squad? The big problem
| that Canada has is they have not even identified the
| killer. Even if Bishnoi makes big claims, how are they
| going to prove them? And then they will have to
| estabilish the link between GoI and Bishnoi. All that if
| at all their 'conspiracy theory' that India has a hand in
| killings holds any water. Which I honestly doubt.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > what makes you so sure that the Indian government is
| contracting the hit squad
|
| It was reported that Pavan Kumar Rai posted a hit on
| Nijjar on some deepweb website used to hire assassins.
|
| If someone can find that for me I'd appreciate it because
| I really don't want to go on a hunt for that citation.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| India and the US are not in remotely comparable positions
| geopolitically. Yemen or Pakistan asserting their right
| to self defense to the UN to justify declaring war on the
| US would simply be suicide for them, and just another
| middle eastern country to topple for the US. So the US
| just informs the UNSC that they are killing Bin Laden on
| Pakistani soil, and do so in such a way as to give
| Pakistan plausible justification for not declaring war,
| since they have no interest in doing so.
|
| If Canada decided that they were going to declare war
| based on self-defense, before going to the UN, they'd be
| going to the US and NATO, the most powerful military
| organizations on Earth. Canada, even just as the US's
| hat, enjoys the kind of superpower status that India can
| only fantasize about.
| remhrtin wrote:
| [dead]
| AYBABTME wrote:
| So I would expect that warrants would be issued, India and
| Canada would cooperate in the investigation and sentences
| would be handed by cooperating judicial systems. There's
| precedent for cross country justice being served. If this
| isn't working between Canada and India, it should be fixed.
| If Canada isn't cooperating where it ought, Canada should
| improve. I don't know anything about that. But was there an
| interpol warrant on this person?
| alephnerd wrote:
| > But was there an interpol warrant on this person?
|
| Yes [0]
|
| > would cooperate in the investigation and sentences
| would be handed by cooperating judicial systems
|
| They don't really cooperate.
|
| A lot of this is due to mutual red tape, and also because
| of jurisdictional issues (eg. is transnational crime
| under the CSIS, the RCMP, the Vancouver PD? Which court
| does it go to?) because Canada is very similar to India
| structurally (weird hyper-federalism mixed with federal
| powers attempting to further gain control).
|
| Also the Indian equivalent of law enforcement isn't the
| greatest either due to federal-state conflicts along with
| like 6-8 different competing federal law enforcement
| agencies, plus a couple national security ones.
|
| [0] - https://torontosun.com/news/national/what-we-know-
| about-slai...
| AYBABTME wrote:
| I didn't know this, and these types of details would
| definitely modulate my (and probably other's) perception
| of India's justification. Example: if there was credible
| imminent threat, and uncooperative foreign government
| giving no alternative but the emergency use of
| clandestine force.
| alephnerd wrote:
| > modulate my (and probably other's) perception of
| India's justification
|
| This whole controversy was unplanned.
|
| There have been ongoing discussions between the Five Eyes
| and India about this hit and the whole Khalistan issue
| for months now, but Trudeau's hand was forced after the
| Globe and Mail (a newspaper that leans Conservative) gave
| him a 24 hour heads up that an article about this was
| about to be published.
|
| Someone leaked, and now it's a cluster f.
| tyrd wrote:
| However, a senior officer said, "Canada, which is a
| member of Interpol and talks about the rule of law, has
| disregarded Interpol red notices. As a rule, once a red
| notice is issued, a member country is bound to take the
| suspect(s) into custody"
|
| Canada yet to act on Interpol notices against Khalistani
| gangsters - https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hindustantim
| es.com/india-ne...
| AverageDude wrote:
| Because India has ridiculous history of making charges
| against people whom they don't like politically. Search
| "Umar Khalid".
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| > Hopefully this is all false
|
| Not hopefully for Trudeau. If he has no incontrovertible
| proof that the international community would accept, then
| this move should be the end of his political career in
| Canada. It won't be, but it should be.
| dirtyid wrote:
| The allegations is tied to FVEY credibility at this point.
| busterarm wrote:
| There's been seven or eight major scandals that should have
| been the end of his political career, but because of
| certain uncomfortable political realities he is immovable.
|
| He would have to voluntarily retire from his party and
| politics altogether...and unfortunately it seems like he
| likes power.
| momirlan wrote:
| his career should have ended before it started, he's that
| bad. the fact that he survived like a cockroach is truly
| miraculous, and only points to how bad Canadians are at
| smelling bs.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _and 38y later someone related to the movement being
| (allegedly) assassinated by the Indian government on Canadian
| soil._
|
| There was another "suspicious" event this morning (quotes
| because I don't understand the politics enough to make a
| judgement):
|
| https://www.business-standard.com/india-news/sukha-duneke-
| wh...
|
| The source definitely has a view, but "one person's freedom
| fighter..." and all that.
| rhaway84773 wrote:
| It's irrelevant if they're a freedom fighter or a
| terrorist. Extra judicial killings are not justified.
|
| I'm not sure if this particular killing was done by India,
| but either way it's not great timing.
| mortureb wrote:
| It is if the nation harboring the terrorist refuses to
| cooperate with an interpol order related to murder and
| the person is actively killing politicians in your
| country. What exactly was India supposed to do since
| Canada refused to work with them? Sit on their hands and
| watch their elected reps get assassinated?
| jltsiren wrote:
| The accepted response is escalating the situation on the
| diplomatical level. Imposing sanctions if necessary.
| Getting other countries impose them as well. And, in
| extreme cases, trying to get the UN Security Council
| authorize military action.
| pseg134 wrote:
| Well they killed him and haven't had any real
| consequences so I would say killing him was also an
| accepted response. It was accepted by everyone
| realistically able to do anything about the situation.
| tyrd wrote:
| "The death of Ayman al-Zawahiri is a step toward a safer
| world. Canada will keep working with our global partners to
| counter terrorist threats, promote peace and security, and
| keep people here at home and around the world safe" -Justin
| Trudeau
|
| So extraterrestrial killing are fine when certain countries
| do it?
| murderfs wrote:
| > extraterrestrial
|
| I knew it, aliens did 9/11!
| AYBABTME wrote:
| Whataboutism.
| capdiz wrote:
| Define Whataboutism?
|
| It is my father having a love child with the neighbour's
| wife while I get a ass whopping for sleeping with the
| maid.
|
| All jokes aside; I believe the western world set a
| dangerous precedent with the war on terror and the
| chickens are coming home to roost. Am fearful of what is
| to come in the future.
|
| Russia's war on Ukraine may end up emboldening nations to
| act as they please with regards to dissidents wherever
| they might be and this is a scary world that we moving
| into.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| Distraction from the relevant point by bringing up cases
| where the accusee might be construed as having performed
| the same act as the accused. It's a distraction because
| it detracts from whether the accused did or didn't do the
| act. And the matter here is whether India did it;
| distractions away from this question are either implying
| that they did it ("so what if I did, you did too"), or an
| attempt to throw off and confuse the conversations about
| it.
| thrway63245 wrote:
| Teaching the masses this word is really an amazing
| victory by American propagandists.
|
| It can be used to instantly shut down any discussion and
| win any argument (if only in the eyes of the person using
| it).
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| it can only be used to shut down whataboutism
|
| if literally all your arguments and all your discussions
| depend on your use of whataboutism, the problem and
| solution lie within yourself: conceive of affirmative
| arguments supporting your position which aren't logical
| fallacies, like whataboutism is
| mahastore wrote:
| Consequentism. What goes around comes around yada yada
| AYBABTME wrote:
| Explain this in more details. The outline I gather of
| your position is that "the US killed Ben Laden on
| Pakistani territory so India killed someone on Canadian
| territory, Canada had it coming for what they did to Ben
| Laden". Fill in the details.
| unmole wrote:
| > Fill in the details.
|
| If you harbour terrorists who are wanted by your
| ostensible partners, don't be surprised if they lose
| patience and decide to take matters into their own hands.
|
| Does that help?
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| what makes you think that's okay?
|
| even children are taught that 2 wrongs don't make a right
|
| I'm not saying you were raised wrong though
| unmole wrote:
| I don't care how you were raised but killing terrorists
| is 100% OK.
| [deleted]
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| I don't care how you were raised, but two wrongs don't
| make a right, and unilateral, extrajudicial,
| extraterritorial assassinations of political opponents
| are wrong, even if you shout _" terrorist!"_ while
| murdering
|
| imagine if such shouting made murder okay, like a secret,
| magical incantation any arbitrary thug could recite to
| immunize oneself from guilt - it's a ridiculous concept
| when you think about it!
| unmole wrote:
| > unilateral, extrajudicial, extraterritorial
| assassinations
|
| Is an _assination_ ever bilateral or judicial?
|
| This is basically the trolley problem: Do you pull the
| lever and kill terrorist, or do you let him keep bombing
| movie theatres and organising hits?
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| I'd say this is different from the trolley problem,
| because, again, unilateral, extrajudicial,
| extraterritorial assassinations of political opponents
| are wrong, even if you shout "terrorist!" while murdering
|
| they are always wrong
|
| it doesn't matter if you also did a good thing, it
| doesn't even matter if the good thing was related: you
| aren't allowed to do the wrong thing, period, even if you
| really, really, really want to, even if _you_ think _you_
| have a good reason to break the rules and do wrong
|
| and as to your first question, eh, could be for some
| examples, but it'd be a distraction, as the answer
| doesn't matter, because the case we're discussing
| definitely wasn't either one
| [deleted]
| walrus01 wrote:
| There is zero credible information that the person assassinated
| had anything to do with any armed militant groups. He was a
| political activist. RCMP and CSIS investigated him quite
| thoroughly.
|
| edit: the persons posting replies to "news" articles
| contradicting this are from sources that are hardcore Modi/BJP
| supporters. About as credible as posting a newsmax URL.
| nsenifty wrote:
| Another example of RCMP and CSISs glorious due diligence -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.H.M.B_Noor_Chowdhury
|
| This guy killed the President of Bangladesh and most of his
| family (women and children included) and is now a guest of
| Canada and is refused extradition based on a technicality.
|
| I don't condone extra-judiciary killings but Canada
| absolutely has and continue to harbor criminals.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Hard to find the info, but seems like the guy got sentenced
| to death in absentia.
|
| From what I can tell, Canada can't constitutionally
| extradite when a death sentence is on the table.
|
| Not much of a technicality. Not a guest of Canada either,
| but nowhere to deport him to. Bangladeshi judges basically
| made this guy unreturnable to Bangladesh.
|
| Probably also fair-trial concerns in any conviction in
| absentia. Kinda surprised another common-law country allows
| that as Canada doesn't.
| makomk wrote:
| This isn't even particularly unusual. Most of Europe
| can't or won't extradite people when a death sentence is
| a possibility for basically the same reason, including to
| the US - the only way for the US to get an extradition is
| through a binding agreement that the person being
| extradited cannot be sentenced to death. Actually, the
| Canadian Supreme Court case which found this to be
| unconstitutional seems to have involved an extradition to
| the US from what I can tell...
| eklavya wrote:
| Sure he was https://m.timesofindia.com/india/26-years-before-
| he-was-shot...
| belltaco wrote:
| The whole affair is somewhat fishy.
|
| When the Canadian Immigration Minister cannot get basic facts
| right before posting on Twitter about him, it gets strange.
|
| https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/canada-allowed-
| hard...
|
| At the very least he appears guilty of traveling on fake
| passport and committing immigration fraud to obtain Canadian
| citizenship, for which normal folks without special treatment
| would be punished for. But the Canadian govt seems so hell
| bent on harboring him that the Immigration Minister was
| willing to lie to the world on Twitter about him.
| alephnerd wrote:
| Feels more like incompetence and red tape. Canadian
| immigration authorities are not the greatest at background
| checks. I've had distant relatives buy fake credentials in
| PB and HP to emigrate to Canada and they're now PRs and
| Citizens
| nsenifty wrote:
| Not to mention the travesty that followed in terms of bringing
| the perpetrators to justice. Most of them walked, owing to
| witnesses getting murdered in Canada under RCMP's watch.
| belltaco wrote:
| Also apparently wiretaps by Canada's intelligence agency had
| been erased before they could be used as evidence.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| And the winners in this are China and Russia.
| jbm wrote:
| The winners of this news coming out are the victims and family
| members of the murder victim, as the norm until now was to hide
| information. As normal people, we all win when governments hold
| less secrets.
|
| By sharing inconvenient information, I am more likely to trust
| the Trudeau Government, eventhough I don't agree with them on
| most things anymore.
| AYBABTME wrote:
| The impact on the immediate victim and family members pales
| in comparison to the large scale impact this can have by
| driving a wedge between nations that ought to be friendly and
| allied.
|
| I don't wish India and Canada (and the West) to be unfriendly
| for one bit, as the result of this misalignment could be a
| more severe return to bloody Cold War era and its related
| proxy wars. Many more victims will derive from democracies
| not being on good terms and showing a strong unity.
|
| The only winner in this spat is whoever benefits from India
| and the West being driven apart.
| ekam wrote:
| If India didn't want this wedge they shouldn't have
| violated Canada's sovereignty over a local plumber that
| liked to volunteer at his place of worship
| tinuviel wrote:
| The local canadian plumber who like to volunteer at his
| place of worship was a known indian fugitive with an
| interpol request for extradition. He also ran a training
| camp in Mission,BC to build a militant army. Canada can
| keep these snakes in its back yard.
|
| https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab/conspiracy-to-
| kill-...
| spandrew wrote:
| Sovereignty matters more. You can't just assassinate
| someone based on your own laws in someone else's
| jurisdiction. That's anarchy.
| Ekaros wrote:
| So default state of the world?
| ekam wrote:
| Haven't seen any evidence for the militant training camp
| except for unrelated video that clearly showed a
| different person. Countries can put anyone on Interpol,
| including activists and that's a known problem
| https://www.voanews.com/a/as-interpol-
| turns-100-criticism-pe...
| AYBABTME wrote:
| They probably didn't want this wedge, and the leak to the
| media that forced Canadian PM's hand was probably not
| motivated by neither India or Canada's interests. If I
| was a conspiracy theorist, I would think that a third
| party with an interest in dividing these two countries
| would have leaked the information.
| [deleted]
| belltaco wrote:
| > The winners of this news coming out are the victims and
| family members of the murder victim
|
| I wish the 320 Air India passenger victims got the same
| consideration from Canada even though the Canadian citizens
| were likely ethnically South Asian than Canadian. The alleged
| perpetuators were let go due to lack of evidence two decades
| later.
|
| > Wiretaps by Canada's intelligence agency had been erased
| before they could be used as evidence
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/18/world/canada/canada-
| india...
|
| > Canada's security agency destroyed wiretapping evidence on
| suspects in the 1985 Air India bombing as part of a "default"
| policy
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/erasing-wiretap-evidence-
| was-...
| AlexandrB wrote:
| You keep bringing this up, but I don't see how it's
| relevant considering Hardeep Singh Nijjar was 8 years old
| at the time of the bombing.
|
| > Wiretaps by Canada's intelligence agency had been erased
| before they could be used as evidence
|
| Is there any evidence of a coverup? The trial was ~20 years
| after the wiretaps were collected which leaves plenty of
| time for incompetence/negligence to do the job.
| belltaco wrote:
| > Is there any evidence of a coverup? The trial was ~20
| years after the wiretaps were collected which leaves
| plenty of time for incompetence/negligence to do the job.
|
| From https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/air-
| india-bo...
|
| > June 2, 2003:
|
| > Opposition MPs call for an inquiry into accusations
| that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
| blocked the RCMP investigation into the bombing.
|
| > According to RCMP documents, CSIS ordered the
| destruction of hours of wiretaps to conceal the fact that
| one of its agents, Surjan Singh Gill, had penetrated a
| circle of Sikh extremists planning the attack. He was
| ordered to pull out three days before Air India Flight
| 182 blew up.
|
| > You keep bringing this up, but I don't see how it's
| relevant considering Hardeep Singh Nijjar was 8 years old
| at the time of the bombing
|
| The NYTimes considers it relevant enough to mention it in
| the context https://archive.ph/9re2c
|
| The accused in the bombing was heavily associated with
| Nijjar later on to the point of them having a dispute and
| a lawsuit about a commercial printing press used for the
| separatist movement.
| justanotheratom wrote:
| perhaps he can share evidence as well?
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Sorta on-topic, some credit cards do have insurance coverage that
| lets you get an airfare refund if you applied for a visa and it
| was rejected.
|
| Not sure how this will go here for applications in progress.
|
| And what the airlines will do if their traffic takes a dive.
| teitoklien wrote:
| Wont be an issue for airlines, as until last year flights
| between Canada and India was restricted to 35 flights max /
| week.
|
| I doubt the number of flights can balloon up too much in a
| matter of months.
|
| So it should be a minor blow to them.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Actual article title is: " India suspends visa service operations
| in Canada until further notice, says BLS International"
|
| This nuance is important as Indian has e-visas, so can't tell
| what happens with those when the physical application centres are
| closed.
|
| This might not impact tourists so much as work/study visitors or
| others excluded from e-visas (like those with some Pakistani
| blood).
| ghoomketu wrote:
| Sorry I had more than one tab open and originally meant to link
| to this article (1) but copy pasted the other url. Hence the
| discrepancy.
|
| (1)
| https://www.ft.com/content/9f9a1c55-1079-43a3-973c-11443e660...
| elforce002 wrote:
| I don't have a dog in this fight but this is geopolitics. Unless
| you're absolutely sure, you cannot accuse other countries of
| planning and executing hits on people living in your country.
|
| Now, on the other hand, a person living abroad, advocating for
| basically secession and creation of a new country, with a massive
| following also living abroad (+700,000), get gunned down in a
| country with some of the most restrictive gun control laws and
| there's no suspect in custody? It's odd, to say the least.
|
| The world is getting more divided by the day. We're practically
| seeing in realtime the world is dividing itself into factions.
|
| Interesting times indeed.
| eureka-belief wrote:
| The defensiveness and overreaction of India suggests that
| something is amiss. Why not just either 1) work with Canada to
| convince them they didn't do it, or 2) just let it go?
| pratikss wrote:
| Do you expect for someone to not be defensive after you accuse
| them of murder? And then how can you ask them to investigate
| themselves? In civilized countries false accusation is
| considered criminal offense. Accusation comes after evidence,
| not before or during investigation.
| 0xDEF wrote:
| Considering all the Snowden fanboyism and anti-CIA/NSA
| sentiments on HN and reddit I expected people to be more
| critical of a Five Eyes intelligence service saying "just trust
| us bro".
| wendyshu wrote:
| non sequitur
| yumraj wrote:
| So India should just accept being called a murderer without
| evidence, and expulsion of its diplomat as well as Trudeau's
| clear support to Khalistanis in Canada.
|
| I don't think so.
|
| The onus is on Canada to provide evidence, not on India.
| Remember, innocent until proven guilty - or would you like that
| legal principal to be changed?
|
| Secondly, I'll say that silence is an admission of guilt. India
| is daring Trudeau to show evidence or retract.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Innocent until proven guilty isn't a legal concept that
| applies to international relations, it is a colloquial phrase
| that clarifies rights in certain criminal cases. But also,
| "silence is an admission of guilt" is in direct contradiction
| to innocent until proven guilty.
|
| There are a variety of reasons why Canada might not provide
| proof to your satisfaction. One might be that it would expose
| intelligence channels that they are trying to keep alive
| (literally, in some cases). It has also only been a few days,
| and there is likely some pretty serious maneuvering on both
| sides where withholding information is important.
|
| I can also assure you that most Canadians, including the PM
| do not care in particular about "Khalistanis", or really know
| what that means in the context of Indian politics. Before
| this week, I would be surprised if most Canadians knew there
| was a rift between Hindus and Sikhs
|
| Canada does need to provide proof, but in Canadian politics
| you simply don't make an announcement like this as the PM
| without strong evidence.
| yumraj wrote:
| So, I'm assuming that tomorrow Indian PM can make a claim
| that Canadian agents (CSIS?) was behind it and not provide
| any evidence. That'll be equivalent and acceptable right?
|
| India has provided ample evidence including via Interpol
| (whatever the process it called, red something notice or
| whatever) regarding various Khalistanis and Canada hasn't
| acted. Culprits from Air India bombing in the 80s were
| acquitted since Canadian intelligence had decided to erase
| evidence. Just look at the videos of the Gurudwara in
| question, it has posters calling for assassination of
| Indian diplomats. Graffiti was painted in Hindu temples in
| Canada. Etc. Etc.
|
| It is very clear that Canadian governments and politicians
| have a soft spot for Khalistanis since they constitute a
| sizeable vote bank. I believe NDP leader is also a
| Khalistan sympathizer, has to be if he wants Sikh votes in
| Canada.
|
| Having said that, I still believe that this is not a rift
| between Hindus and Sikhs. This is limited to a vocal, but
| powerful, minority of Sikh diaspora. Khalistan is a non-
| issue within India, but can flare up which is why
| governments need to be careful.
|
| Edit: I have no idea how good/bad Canada's National Post
| is, but I found this to be a rather logical opinion piece :
| https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canadas-remarkably-
| slapdash...
| vjust wrote:
| The Khalistan movement found a fertile breeding ground in
| Canada about 40 years ago. They bombed an airline (AirIndia
| flight 182) in the 80s, the terrorists who plotted walk
| free in Canada to this day. Additionally, any Sikh , in
| Vancouver, who dissents with the Khalistan idea is asking
| for trouble - its a mafia. This tumor in Canada's politics
| has been allowed to fester, and now their PM is hostage
| because he is a minority party , one wrong move and he's
| out of power. Assassinations and hit jobs are common. In
| 1984, a monster blew up in Punjab (called the Sant, i.e
| Monk Bhindranwale) - who had been groomed by Politicians
| (and the silent sikh majority held hostage by violence) -
| there were riots and a major political assasination of PM
| Indira Gandhi. I wonder what other leader is being groomed,
| this time in Canada - to blow up in the Canadian political
| scene.
|
| When the Khalistan govt. crackdown, and violent riots
| happened in India in 1984/85 I saw that first hand. These
| fugitives from India are a mix of Political aspiration
| (nothing wrong there), bigotry, criminal mafia, and
| vengeful militias that wields political power in Canada -
| Canada has opened its doors to trouble. Some of the
| grievances are no doubt legit, but there is zero religious
| repression of Sikhs in India (unlike other minorities who
| have serious problems that are well covered in the media).
|
| The vast majority of Sikhs want nothing to do with these
| extremists. Obviously, the Indian govt can do much more and
| be more effective if it tries, within its own borders - but
| thats a matter of political will or games.
| orwin wrote:
| I really disagree with your second point.
|
| Silence and carry on is what false accusations deserve. The
| issue is, I don't think Modi can afford to stay silent,
| whether the accusations are true or not.
| glonq wrote:
| I'd like to think that Canada has a clean enough reputation as
| decent global citizens that they've earned the benefit of the
| doubt on this one.
|
| India aspires to be a global superpower, and since there's few
| decent role models for how to do that they've decided that
| "reckless impunity and belligerence" is how it's done.
| michael1999 wrote:
| Because they did it, and resent being called on it.
|
| The USA reserves the right to assassinate any one, any where,
| at any time as long as someone with signing authority calls
| them a terrorist. The Russians have made a game of it with
| their exotic mix of radioactive poisons and throwing people out
| of windows. The current nationalist government of India is
| demanding these same prerogatives to match their self-
| conception of India and status as a major power.
|
| Or (only slightly) more charitably: India would have been happy
| to keen this quiet. But once Canada announced this, India had
| to respond. Their voters respond well to muscular gestures, so
| something flashy like a visa ban demonstrates their toughness.
| Canada had already generating some bad publicity in India, and
| beating up on us for a little bit will probably make number go
| up.
| crawsome wrote:
| Russia doesn't assasinate terrorists though, they simply
| murder dissenters. The oligarchy has lots of enemies.
| yumraj wrote:
| > Because they did it, and resent being called on it.
|
| based on what evidence??
| [deleted]
| mortureb wrote:
| Generally being amicable in situations like this where you are
| accused of serious issues is viewed as insulting. I'm not
| saying they didn't do it, I'm just saying that even if they
| didn't they wouldn't take kindly to it just being thrown in
| their face.
| donbox wrote:
| That goes for Canada too, what was the need to go public and
| that too without presenting any evidence.
| thrusong wrote:
| Apparently Robert Fife told the PMO they were going to run
| this. The government asked them to hold off for a week, and
| then The Globe and Mail said "no, we're running it in 24
| hours."
| AYBABTME wrote:
| It seems unlikely to be false and made up, it's not like
| Canada goes about saying stuff like this, historically. At
| the same time it's not hard to imagine a case where revealing
| the evidence/sources would compromise the capabilities/assets
| used come up with this conclusion.
|
| Perhaps the early announcement is a misstep from the Canadian
| PM, but I really doubt that they would make this stuff up.
| They have very little to gain by coming out with this, if
| untrue, and a lot to lose.
|
| And if the allegations are true, Canada still is probably in
| an unenviable position of not wanting to come stir problem
| unnecessarily, but also not being able to let it slide and be
| seen as a push over. Extraterritorial killings by foreign
| nations is a big deal, and being soft on this is opening the
| door to a whole lot of problems.
| teitoklien wrote:
| I would be weary of trusting the current Canadian prime
| minister
|
| CSIS and Canadian NSA (Canadian Intelligence Services)
| overall have a good reputation but have been mismanaged
| recently and also have been politicised and made to lie
| about events
|
| An example incident around 2018-2019
|
| Canadian Prime Minister on his visit to India in 2018 had
| invited a known terrorist in hiding to his gala, who was
| shown to even take a photograph with his wife, the first
| lady at that event [0]
|
| Then after this incident blew up back then, the national
| security advisor of Canada, CSIS and the Canadian Prime
| Minister claimed that it was rogue elements in the Indian
| government who brought the criminal to the gala to embarass
| Canada [1]
|
| Only for a liberal mp from Prime Minister's own party
| admitting they were the ones who invited the known fugitive
| who was facing charges on attempted murder against Indian
| beauracrats and journalists. [2][3]
|
| It was a disaster and showed how the current prime minister
| likes to use public services to save his face and make
| false accusation against other governments and nations.
|
| The Minister even had to resign later for this.
|
| I've added two attributions for last point [2] and [3] a
| canadian and a indian media source as it wasnt widely
| publicised in Canada (considering how embarrassing it was
| for them) but was widely shown in India
|
| I linked only canadian sources and newspapers to give them
| the benefit of the doubt.
|
| [0](https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-
| pmn/a-time...)
|
| [1](https://youtu.be/FyTFBtLqO9U?si=1CYifRlmJNy9woLJ)
|
| [2](https://youtu.be/n72L1V1NzzQ?si=XNbt-IfGZGqYFm56)
|
| [3](https://youtu.be/o0rtEQc96XE?si=goYPMQ8wzAwyN2qw)
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > it's not like Canada goes about saying stuff like this,
| historically
|
| Almost nothing Trudeau is doing could be considered
| historic.
| momirlan wrote:
| historically low, it is.
| neom wrote:
| Somewhat reminds me of the situation with Meng Wanzhou.
| Canada seems to end up with high profile folks with ties to
| other countries that then put Canada in a difficult
| position. China is still angry at Canada over the Meng
| Wanzhou situation (among other things). Xi Jinping took a
| swipe at Trudeau in front of the Camera recently, Modi is
| now telling me to f'off. Politics aside, say what you will
| about Justin, sure as heck wouldn't want to be him.
| lazyninja987 wrote:
| [dead]
| teitoklien wrote:
| A lot of people are saying that these accusations against India
| must be true, and why would Canada lie, it has no benefit from
| lying.
|
| The Trudeau government operates significantly differently than
| previous administrations, they have used their national security
| advisor and CSIS before to lie about India to save their prime
| minister from embarrassment and then get caught red handed for
| making false accusations.
|
| An example incident around 2018-2019 Canadian Prime Minister on
| his visit to India in 2018 had invited a known terrorist in
| hiding to his gala, who was shown to even take a photograph with
| his wife, the first lady at that event [0] Then after this
| incident blew up back then, the national security advisor of
| Canada, CSIS and the Canadian Prime Minister claimed that it was
| rogue elements in the Indian government who brought the criminal
| to the gala to embarass Canada [1] Only for a liberal mp from
| Prime Minister's own party admitting they were the ones who
| invited the known fugitive who was facing charges on attempted
| murder against Indian beauracrats and journalists. [2][3] It was
| a disaster and showed how the current prime minister likes to use
| public services to save his face and make false accusation
| against other governments and nations. The Minister even had to
| resign later for this. I've added two attributions for last point
| [2] and [3] a canadian and a indian media source as it wasnt
| widely publicised in Canada (considering how embarrassing it was
| for them) but was widely shown in India I linked only canadian
| sources and newspapers to give them the benefit of the doubt.
|
| I've also found the current canadian administration with how
| unprofessional they are, their prime minister was caught publicly
| insulting trump and making jokes about him at a NATO summit (no
| matter what you think of trump, it is unprofessional and bad,
| considering canada was back then negotiating a Free Trade
| Agreement with america back then), he has lied about India
| accusing them of serious things before then after getting caught
| about it, put it all under the bus. He has soured relationships
| with a lot of countries, China, India, USA (under Trump),
| publicly tried to lecture Italy (no matter what your opinions are
| on that), got shamed at EU parliament during his speech.
|
| [0](https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-
| pmn/a-time...)
|
| [1](https://youtu.be/FyTFBtLqO9U?si=1CYifRlmJNy9woLJ)
|
| [2](https://youtu.be/n72L1V1NzzQ?si=XNbt-IfGZGqYFm56)
|
| [3](https://youtu.be/o0rtEQc96XE?si=goYPMQ8wzAwyN2qw)
| vinni2 wrote:
| Not sure if it means even e-visas are suspended. According to
| this https://indianvisaonline.gov.in/evisa/tvoa.html Canadians
| are still eligible for e-visa.
| lazyninja987 wrote:
| [dead]
| pseudo0 wrote:
| The sequence of events here was rather interesting. The Globe and
| Mail got the assassination story, and asked the government for
| comment. The government asked the Globe to hold the story for a
| week due to security concerns, and the Globe gave them 24 hours.
| Then Trudeau used that window to get ahead of the story by
| announcing it himself.
|
| He probably burned some bridges with journalists due to this
| stunt, and that would also explain the complete lack of evidence.
| neom wrote:
| From what I've read in multiple news agencies is: Canadian
| diplomates state they have been working behind the scenes with
| Brits and the Americans for weeks to try and avoid a full on
| conflict with India, they opted not to get involved, then
| Trudeau met with Modi at the G20 and he brushed it off, Globe
| and Mail just pressed the issue further. Seems like a bit of a
| cluster f.
|
| https://youtu.be/wid6H7fiTgU?si=UTZIIdRSd371cZm9
|
| https://youtu.be/1OWPVqZWK9g?si=ypJ3jX57sKbPIqSb
| rg111 wrote:
| This is done mainly for identity politics.
|
| Trudeau leads a minority government and is in power with the
| support of Shikh-aligned NDP whose leader is a known pro-
| Khalistani.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Ironically _this comment_ is actually an excellent example
| of "identity politics" (as the term was originally used at
| least). It ascribes identity-based motives on state actors
| when other possible explanations exist.
| bananapub wrote:
| what on earth?
|
| your theory is that the only reason that the PM of Canada
| is annoyed about a _notionally allied country murdering
| someone*, in Canada, is because of parliamentary politics?_
| unmole wrote:
| No, the theory is that the PM of Canada recognises the
| electoral benefits of pandering to Khalistani extremists.
| kderbyma wrote:
| welcome to Canada. That's how it is here. Politics is
| corrupt in every country. The political class is not
| equal before the law regardless of their claims.
| theironhammer wrote:
| Didn't the comment say "mainly" not "only"?
| yakubin wrote:
| So far he seems to be annoyed based on suspicions, but
| without evidence. His actions seem a bit rash in that
| situation.
| pratikss wrote:
| That's exactly how parliamentary politics work. NDP that
| has 25 seats in parliament can revoke their support and
| Trudeau stops being a prime minister.
| momirlan wrote:
| he also showed again his true colours, and they are not looking
| good.
| maximilianburke wrote:
| Lack of publicly revealed evidence does not mean a lack of
| evidence.
| b59831 wrote:
| [dead]
| morbidious wrote:
| Why the hell should the Indian government trust Canada's so-
| called evidence that they are not even willing to reveal?
| Anyone with two brain cells will call bs on something like
| this.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| The Indian government wouldn't rely on Canada's evidence to
| determine whether they carried out an assassination, in any
| case.
| morbidious wrote:
| Why not? If the evidence can be fact-checked on both
| sides, then its credibility can be established. All this
| depends on what kind of evidence Canada has (if at all
| they do).
| dragonwriter wrote:
| Because if they did carry out the assassination as state
| policy, they know that, and if they didn't, they know
| that, too.
|
| Would you need to review someone else's evidence to
| decide if you committed a murder?
|
| Third party evidence is relevant only to the extent that
| they didn't do it as a matter of state policy but a rogue
| agent or group might have done it.
| powersnail wrote:
| Surely India already knows whether they themselves have
| carried out the assassination?
| pseudo0 wrote:
| Sure, there might be evidence that they are refusing to
| release, but Trudeau made the accusation publicly. By turning
| this into a public diplomatic spat, he now needs to show the
| proof.
| pratikss wrote:
| So far this mysterious evidence is not shared with ANYONE.
| Whether it is leader of opposition, five eyes allies whom he
| seeked support from, with the government he is asking to
| cooperate.
|
| In all likelyhood the evidence does not exist.
| dirtyid wrote:
| It's not shared with public, which these things rarely are
| due to usual sources/methods excuse. US formally supports
| Canadian allegations against India, which means
| intelligence at least been vetted by FVEYs. Which isn't to
| give credenance to FVEY credibility, only it suggest there
| isn't LACK of evidence that gives US an out.
| pseudo0 wrote:
| No, the US has not formally supported Trudeau's
| allegations.
|
| > Weeks before Trudeau's announcement, Canada had asked
| it's closest allies, including Washington, to publicly
| condemn the killing, according to a Western official, who
| spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a
| diplomatically sensitive matter. But the requests were
| turned down, the official said.
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/09/19/india-
| expels...
|
| https://archive.ph/iblcf
| dirtyid wrote:
| US admin disputes the WP piece.
|
| >"Reports that Canada asked the U.S. to publicly condemn
| the murder and that we refused are false and we would
| strongly push back on the rumours that we were reluctant
| to speak publicly about this," the official said.
|
| US formally support Canada investigation, urged India to
| cooperate. That doesn't happen behind the scenes if US
| can wiggle out of allegations. Canada wouldn't have gone
| to G20 with allegations on sidelines unless they have
| sufficient FVEY intelligence. That's read between the
| line of formally supporting Canadian allegations but
| trying to find a position not throw everything into the
| shitter. Which they could have during Indian G20 to make
| this the dominating narrative. The most charitable
| interpretation right now is FVEY/US supports CA
| allegations, but still hoping this somehow IN/CA can
| manage crisis in way it would blow over.
| pseudo0 wrote:
| Spot the difference between these two statements:
|
| > Canada had asked it's closest allies, including
| Washington, to publicly condemn the _killing_
|
| > US formally support Canada _investigation_ , urged
| India to cooperate.
|
| They got a much, much weaker level of support than they
| wanted.
| dirtyid wrote:
| There is no difference. The point wasn't level of
| support/theatre/posturing but presence of support at all
| that tacitly indicates the level of intelligence behind
| Canada's accusation. It's credible enough that FVEY can't
| deny. Which is key. How they hedge / crisis
| manage,whether they hang Canada out dry during G20 etc,
| is secondary to the fact that they can't swept it under
| the rug. Like this isn't India said vs Canada said, this
| is India said vs FVEY said even if 4/5 of FVEY also say,
| much whatever to the incident overall.
| belltaco wrote:
| Maybe they already lost the evidence because of routine
| deletion like it happened with the downing of Air India
| Flight 182 that killed 320 people and the alleged Canadian
| perpetuators were let go.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37601284
|
| The guy murdered was associated with one of the alleged
| perpetuators later on according to Canadian court records.
| maximilianburke wrote:
| > Maybe they already lost the evidence because of routine
| deletion like it happened with the downing of Air India
| Flight 182 that killed 320 people and the alleged Canadian
| perpetuators were let go.
|
| The perpetrators weren't "let go"; they had a trial (the
| most expensive trial in Canadian history), and two of the
| three charged were found not guilty. Which is how things
| work in a liberal democracy.
|
| > The guy murdered was associated with one of the alleged
| perpetuators later on according to Canadian court records.
|
| Pretty sure that's not a crime in Canada. And if it is one,
| it doesn't meet the standard of "summary execution while
| sitting in ones car", which is definitely not a thing in
| Canada.
| belltaco wrote:
| > The perpetrators weren't "let go"; they had a trial
| (the most expensive trial in Canadian history), and two
| of the three charged were found not guilty. Which is how
| things work in a liberal democracy.
|
| Is the destruction of critical evidence also part of a
| liberal democracy? Not to mention failure to prevent
| critical witnesses from getting killed before being able
| to give testimony.
|
| > June 2, 2003:
|
| > Opposition MPs call for an inquiry into accusations
| that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
| blocked the RCMP investigation into the bombing.
|
| > According to RCMP documents, CSIS ordered the
| destruction of hours of wiretaps to conceal the fact that
| one of its agents, Surjan Singh Gill, had penetrated a
| circle of Sikh extremists planning the attack. He was
| ordered to pull out three days before Air India Flight
| 182 blew up.
|
| https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/air-
| india-bo...
|
| > June 17, 2010:
|
| > Major releases his final report. Over more than 3,200
| pages, he tears into the government and its "wholly
| deficient" agencies. He says failure to prevent the
| bombing was "inexcusable," the CSIS was "ineffective" and
| notes a "lax security culture" at airports. The RCMP
| "failed" to protect threatened witnesses, he adds.
|
| > Major says he cannot understand why CSIS deleted its
| wiretap tapes: "Inconceivable, incomprehensible,
| indefensible, incompetence," he writes
|
| > He also says successive governments had treated the
| victims' families "like adversaries, as if they had
| somehow brought this calamity on themselves."
| Politicians' failure to plug security holes was
| "inexcusable."
|
| > The inquiry concludes Talwinder Singh Parmar was the
| mastermind behind the deadly bombing.
|
| Maybe you know more than the retired Supreme Court of
| Canada Justice John C. Major.
| maximilianburke wrote:
| What point are you trying to make?
| gauku wrote:
| I think the point they are trying to make is pretty clear
| - Canada, be it due to systemic incompetence or vested
| political interests, shares a lot of the blame.
| belltaco wrote:
| Your earlier comment made it sound it like it was a fair
| trial for the 329 victims(including 82 children) on board
| the Air India flight and their families.
|
| Did the presumably new information change your mind? Or
| do you still think it was a standard part of a liberal
| democracy?
|
| Here's the then Canadian PM's apology after 25 years.
| https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/stephen-harpers-
| apology...
| whatever1 wrote:
| So Modi can send his goons in foreign soil to bring
| justice.
|
| I don't understand this line of thought.
| belltaco wrote:
| I never said that or think so. Please don't accuse me of
| things I didn't say or think.
| whatever1 wrote:
| You have several identical comments pointing to the same
| incident trying to build the case that implicates Canada
| in a terrorist attack.
|
| If not to justify the murder then what are you trying to
| achieve?
| belltaco wrote:
| > that implicates Canada in a terrorist attack
|
| That is an extremely flawed reading of what I posted. Can
| you quote parts of where I implicated Canada?
|
| The NYTimes wrote about the case of the flight in their
| article about the recent incident a few days ago. Are you
| going to accuse them too?
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/18/world/canada/canada-
| india...
|
| So did the CBC https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-
| columbia/air-india-bo...
|
| How many percentage of HN folks do you think know about
| Air India Flight 182? Do you think that the context of it
| has zero bearing on this story?
|
| If I were to do the same as you, I would say that you
| seem oddly upset that people are bringing up the
| circumstances around the largest civil terrorism aviation
| incident before 911.
|
| The fact that you're focusing on the commenter rather
| than the argument is strange, because it's well
| documented with trustworthy sources, so it's very easy to
| come up with counter arguments if there were any.
| belltaco wrote:
| >trying to build the case that implicates Canada in a
| terrorist attack
|
| Next you will accuse the RCMP and a retired Canadian
| Justice of the Supreme Court of doing the same
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37604552
|
| Or the Canadian PM in 2010.
|
| https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/stephen-harpers-
| apology...
| alephnerd wrote:
| The Globe and Mail leans Conservative. It's basically Canada's
| WSJ.
|
| I'm kind of curious whether it was the Cons who leaked it or
| someone in the CSIS (some analyst did the same thing a couple
| months back about an ongoing investigation into Chinese
| interference)
|
| It just doesn't seem like something Trudeau's Cabinet would
| want to leak, as you win 100% of the controversies you never
| participate in.
| ipaddr wrote:
| It leans left and elitist. An American running for president
| use to call it the Havana Times.
| waffleiron wrote:
| The American Overton window isn't the only one.
| alephnerd wrote:
| And people call Cambridge MA the People's Republic of
| Cambridge despite hosting multiple DoD labs.
| MrFoof wrote:
| Moreover, Cambridge's Harvard and MIT produced _many_
| scientists that worked on the Manhattan Project. There's
| always been interesting military tech where research
| started in Cambridge.
|
| As for People's Republic, that was long immortalized in
| the bar, "People's Republik" close to Harvard. Closed
| down I think around or just after the pandemic.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| To be fair, there was overlap between "Communists" and
| "scientists that worked on the Manhattan project".
| wk_end wrote:
| Just curious, which "American running for president"? I
| googled "Havana Times" and "Globe and Mail" and couldn't
| find anything about it. Is it an American who would know
| much about the Canadian news media? Because - as a Canadian
| who routinely reads newspapers - that's a position that's
| wildly difficult to square with my reality.
|
| Various groups assessing the issue find it's a little to
| the right of centre. My personal take is that it's a little
| more right-leaning than this implies, but I'm just one guy.
|
| https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-globe-and-mail/
|
| > Overall, we rate The Globe and Mail slightly right-center
| biased due to editorial positions and High for factual
| reporting based on proper sourcing.
|
| https://www.allsides.com/news-source/globe-and-mail-media-
| bi...
|
| > Though the Globe and Mail's political stance has shifted
| over the last several decades, today the paper routinely
| exhibits a center bias.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Globe_and_Mail
|
| > A 2017 survey of Canadians found that the Globe and Mail
| was perceived to be the most biased national news media
| outlet [...] Respondents had mixed opinions as to whether
| its coverage favoured the Liberal Party or the
| Conservatives. A 2010 survey found that the Globe and Mail
| was perceived as slightly right of centre, in similar
| standing to the bulk of other Canadian news organizations.
| munk-a wrote:
| It leans conservative for Canadians - on the American
| political spectrum Danielle Smith might be considered more
| radically progressive than Bernie Sanders since she runs a
| government that provides provincial health insurance.
|
| Framing politics by American standards is rarely helpful.
| chollida1 wrote:
| https://www.allsides.com/news-source/globe-and-mail-media-
| bi....
|
| Probably not true, if anything its centrist with occasional
| leanings both ways.
| blast wrote:
| I have the opposite impression of G&M's leanings, in fact I'm
| surprised to hear anyone say that.
| pseudo0 wrote:
| I'd classify it as neoliberal. They favor business
| interests but lean left on social issues. They are also big
| proponents of the Century Initiative, a plan to have Canada
| reach a population of 100 million by 2100 through massively
| increased immigration.
| alephnerd wrote:
| It's not as bad as the National Post, but the Opinions
| Pieces they host have a distinct PC (Progressive
| Conservative) tinge to it, and they have had a history of
| endorsing the Conservatives. This can be seen as well in
| their endorsements within Ontario (which is basically the
| only part of Anglophone Canada that matters tbh)
| blast wrote:
| Good to know. I'm surprised. Thanks.
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| The G&M has regularly endorsed the Conservative party in
| election years.
|
| It's not deeply right wing (that would be the National
| Post), but it's essentially a centre-right classicly
| liberal establishment newspaper.
| waffleiron wrote:
| Wikipedia seems to agree with the poster you replied to,
| that it leans moderately conservative.
| VancouverMan wrote:
| Keep in mind that the "left" vs "right" determination is
| somewhat skewed within the Canadian political landscape.
|
| Among the major federal parties in Canada, none of them
| offer or propose policies that could be considered "right
| wing" in any meaningful way.
|
| Policy-wise, the Conservative Party should objectively be
| considered a "left-of-centre" party. They embrace
| socialism and big government, and they support high
| immigration rates, for example. Such stances are
| inherently antithetical to "right wing" ideologies.
|
| The Conservative Party only appears to be "right wing"
| because they aren't as far "left" as the Bloc Quebecois
| or Liberal Party are, which aren't as far "left" as the
| NDP or Green Party are.
|
| The PPC is perhaps the most "right wing" of the
| mainstream parties, but platform-wise, it's still quite
| centrist in pretty much all respects.
|
| Essentially all mainstream media in Canada should be
| considered "left wing", including those that tend to be
| somewhat supportive of the Conservative Party.
| orwin wrote:
| I mean, when American say they are 'leftists', 90% of the
| west hear 'right of center'.
|
| NDP being 'far left' is quite funny, but I guess it is
| from an American perspective.
| momirlan wrote:
| Canadian press is a farce, doesn't even qualify as "left" or
| "right". just government propaganda, totally controlled.
| munk-a wrote:
| I'll let the Georgia Straight[1] know that they're totally
| controlled government propaganda... overly broad vague
| statements like this are rarely helpful. Though G&M, CBC
| and Nat Post are heavily biased news sources Canada does
| actually have a press that does good work.
|
| 1. https://www.straight.com/
| momirlan wrote:
| never heard of it, and probably 99% of Canadians haven't
| either. Canada is pretty much an oligopoly in everything:
| media, communications, air transport ... not sure what is
| the surprise for you, do you live here ?
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| I live in Canada, and everyone I know is aware of the
| Georgia Straight. Maybe you haven't heard of it because
| it is local to... the Georgia Straight (Vancouver and
| Victoria), even though it does cover national interests
| too.
| alephnerd wrote:
| I don't remember this and I lived on the Delta and
| Vancouver Island for several years as a kid. Vancouver
| Sun was always the go to newspaper I remember as a kid,
| plus that terrestrial Punjabi news channel that would
| report on Vancouver news in Punjabi around 5.30 or 6.30
| pm every weekday. Also some 2 pager newsletter/newspaper
| that would also give fun facts and stuff.
| belltaco wrote:
| The same agency that deleted the wiretap evidence of Canadian
| based terrorists that killed 320 people aboard the Air India
| flight that was blown up over the Atlantic after taking off
| from Canada, resulting in no convictions?
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37601284
|
| The guy recently murdered was associated with one of the
| alleged perpetuators according to Canadian court records.
| alephnerd wrote:
| What I'm curious about is who is the leaker.
|
| The Five Eyes and India have been communicating about this for a
| couple months now, but Trudeau publicly announced this after The
| Globe and Mail said they would publish a story about Foreign
| Interference. To preempt that Trudeau announced this in
| Parliament 30 minutes before that article was released [0]
|
| Generally, stuff at this level is highly sensitive and classified
| because it becomes a headache for everyone [1]. It doesn't make
| sense for the Canadian PMO to leak this despite G20 crap because
| it has no actual benefit during a non-election year nor does it
| make sense for the Indian PMO to leak this as this impacts Indian
| foreign relations.
|
| Was this a disgruntled CSIS analyst (like the China Election
| Interference leak), the Tories (they leaked the existence of a
| military base in Afghanistan used for anti-Taliban black ops),
| disgruntled NDP MPs (force an early election and win the
| Vancouver suburbs where they compete against the Liberals), or
| disgruntled Liberal MPs (force an early election and get a
| cabinet position or a more senior role)?
|
| [0] - https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/harjit-sajjan-
| hardeep-s...
|
| [1] - personal experience
| Tiktaalik wrote:
| Doesn't make much sense to me for anyone from the political
| side to leak this. No real upside. Especially not for the
| Conservatives.
|
| The Liberals are doing terribly in the polls right now, and
| Canadians, due to inertia and history, are resultingly giving
| the Conservatives a big uptick in poll numbers.
|
| This story does not help the Conservatives or any opposition
| parties in that it helps "change the channel" from the current
| issues that the government is doing poorly on.
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(page generated 2023-09-21 23:02 UTC)