[HN Gopher] Toyota's advanced battery technology roadmap
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Toyota's advanced battery technology roadmap
Author : t4h4
Score : 32 points
Date : 2023-09-14 19:38 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (newsroom.toyota.eu)
(TXT) w3m dump (newsroom.toyota.eu)
| Prcmaker wrote:
| >Note established driving range includes aerodynamic and vehicle
| weight improvements.
|
| While some of these improvements rely on a switch to electric, I
| would love to see as many of these implemented in a much shorter
| term.
| zactato wrote:
| I'm surprised their battery technology isn't just a tank of
| hydrogen that's shaped like a normal EV battery.
| willmadden wrote:
| It would have terrible range with the same footprint. Hydrogen
| has great energy density by mass but terrible energy density by
| volume. The tank needs to be huge (but it would be light).
| _hypx wrote:
| Hydrogen has a higher energy density by volume compared to a
| li-ion battery. People really need to check their fact here.
| willmadden wrote:
| I meant compared to gasoline.
| fragmede wrote:
| Hydrogen is a gas, which expands or compresses to fill all
| available space, so its density varies. People really need
| to check their understanding of physics here.
| Alupis wrote:
| I would assume, but perhaps be wrong, that it would be
| liquid Hydrogen pumped into a vehicle's tank, and much
| like a tank of propane, the liquid expands back into a
| gas as pressure decreases (due to consumption).
|
| Hydrogen vehicles have the advantage of being refillable
| in minutes, much like petrol based vehicles - yet the
| only byproduct is water vapor, making them completely
| environmentally friendly.
|
| Hydrogen is also hugely abundant, and renewable in the
| sense that the water vapor could theoretically be split
| again via some other process.
|
| I would really like to know more about why Hydrogen
| vehicles did not take off as much as electric. They seem
| superior in many ways.
|
| My guess would be the chicken and egg problem - few
| Hydrogen refilling stations nation-wide vs. you can plug
| in at home and charge for 18 hours or whatever.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| Toyota does sell the Mirai[1] in California, it has
| pressurized tanks[2] I think keeping the hydrogen
| liquefied would take low temps as well, which would use a
| lot of energy for refrigeration (and or a lot of volume
| for insulation).
|
| 1: https://www.toyota.com/mirai/
|
| 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai#High-
| pressure_hyd...
| [deleted]
| willmadden wrote:
| lol
| canadianfella wrote:
| [dead]
| eloop wrote:
| FUD isn't enough to maintain market dominance indefinitely, just
| ask Microsoft.
| jbm wrote:
| 1000 km battery, 10 minute charge?
|
| I'm suspicious for many reasons. If they can't build their prime
| hybrids -- or even supply gas Siennas in Canada -- I'm not very
| confident about their manufacturing in the mid-term.
|
| I hope I'm wrong.
| rgbrenner wrote:
| I see way too many Toyota battery articles for a company that can
| barely put out an EV. They're all promises... in the future, they
| swear they'll beat everyone, but they just released a Lexus EV at
| $60k with 196mi range and 5sec 0-60.
| itsoktocry wrote:
| > _5sec 0-60._
|
| When did this become a metric that mattered to any normal
| person? Do you even know the 0-60 of your car? Do you realize
| how quick 5 second is to 60mph? Most sports cars of a
| generation ago couldn't touch that. Why do you feel it needs to
| be faster? It's plain dangerous to inexperienced drivers.
| doublepg23 wrote:
| Aren't Lexus cars luxury?
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| Lexus is the new Cadillacs they might have a 400 horsepower
| engine and really high performance but the people that
| drive them drive them like slugs.
|
| They're the cars of old conservative rich people that don't
| buy American and primarily considered reliability
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| To some, to others they're just Toyotas with leather seats
| ;)
| hedora wrote:
| 5 sec is slow-ish by EV standards.
|
| The more important questions (for me) are how well it handles
| on curves, how efficient it is and what the range is.
|
| The energy efficiency and weight (in American metrics) are
| 5.32 mi/kwh (extremely good), and a bit over 4000 lbs (pretty
| heavy; makes me wonder about handling), with well under 300
| miles of range, depending on conditions.
|
| So... It looks like it'd appeal to the people I know that buy
| Lexus cars. That's not me, but I hope they sell a lot of
| them.
|
| https://ev-database.org/car/1943/Lexus-UX-300e
| rgbrenner wrote:
| I do know the 0-60 of my car... but that's not the point. I
| just want to make sure the reader doesn't think the range is
| low because it's some high performance car. It's just a
| normal Lexus suv that's not up to par in the EV category.
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| Idk what the 0-60 of my leaf is but I beat every one off the
| line when I want to. It makes me far more comfortable on the
| freeway to get all the power I want on demand to quickly and
| safely make a maneuver. I would never have considered it
| before owning an EV, but now that I have one, I'll definitely
| be considerate of it in my next EV purchase.
|
| Previously I had only had crappy used ICE vehicles, and the
| acceleration was so bad it had never occurred to me how much
| better driving could be with good acceleration. I probably
| wouldn't include it in my calculus for an ICE vehicle, but
| I'll probably never purchase another ICE vehicle either.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| > I beat every one off the line when I want to.
|
| It's easy to win a race when nobody else is racing.
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Depends on the year, it used to be around 11s, latest
| models brought it down to 8-7 seconds.
|
| Normal ICE cars are in the 12-18s range, sometimes <10s but
| you'd look like a mad man revving your engine high enough
| to achieve that.
|
| 5s is ridiculously fast and that kind of acceleration
| should _never_ be used in the middle of traffic or city
| roads.
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| My Tesla's 0-60 makes a huge difference in normal
| driving, because the acceleration profile at low speeds
| is a lot more "do the right thing now". Driving my
| minivan or other ICE cars feels laggy to me now.
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| This is the sense I was trying to communicate.
|
| I'm not flooring it, but when I make a speed adjustment,
| it happens 'right away'. There is no delay. Its
| immediate.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| A lot of that is the automatic transmission in ICE
| drivetrains. a manual transmission delivers immediate
| acceleration but still not as good as a Tesla
| a_t48 wrote:
| I drive a Jetta GLI, it's 6.1 (edit - 6.4?) seconds -
| fairly fast but not a fancy sports car, no obnoxious
| reviving required. It's a four cylinder, too!
| quicklime wrote:
| The Nissan Leaf has an official 0-100km/h sprint time of
| 7.9 seconds, while the Leaf e+ achieves a sprint time of
| 6.9 seconds.
|
| This is easily achievable by many ICE cars. You can get a
| Toyota Corolla that matches this (and I'm not talking about
| the GR Corolla).
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| 6.5 seconds used to be pretty fast, thirty years ago.
|
| Now nearly every mainstream sedan or minivan with a V6
| will do that, often better.
| [deleted]
| golemiprague wrote:
| [dead]
| ronnier wrote:
| I do. My Tesla 0-60 is 1.99~ and gets about 400 mile range
| fragmede wrote:
| Are we gatekeeping liking fast, expensive cars now? Cars are
| an absolute _fixture_ of American society, and even a blind
| person can feel the difference between a 5-second 0-60 and a
| 15-second 0-60.
|
| It's fair to point out that, eg, a Corvette from 1960 was
| slower than 5 seconds for 0-60, but you don't have to be a
| total gearhead to want to be the fastest off the light.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| There's a saying in car manufacturers that Americans buy
| horsepower but drive torque.
|
| Torque is generally what you need when you need that. Beat
| the person off the line because you didn't merge into the
| right turn lane early enough acceleration onto the highway
| and two lane highway passing.
|
| Horsepower is largely a metric for top speed of the vehicle,
| and if we're talking about in a relative statistic for road
| cars, top speed is far more useless than 0-60
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| > When did this become a metric that mattered to any normal
| person?
|
| 1946 it seems:
|
| https://www.motortrend.com/vehicle-genres/c12-0603-icons-
| unc...
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| Because 0 to 60 in 5 means 0 to 30 in even less than it used
| to take.
|
| No need to be a sour puss, let car people love their cars
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > Why do you feel it needs to be faster?
|
| Because there's nothing I hate more than a car that doesn't
| respond when I try to accelerate.
| Dig1t wrote:
| For Americans: always
|
| For the rest of the world: I have no idea.
|
| I have seen car commercials my entire life stating the car's
| 0-60. EV's I think are especially good for this though
| because it's fun to accelerate in an EV. Fun does sell cars,
| see the Miata, S2000, every convertible, etc There are tons
| of examples.
|
| I, personally, as an average Joe, definitely would consider
| acceleration when buying a brand new car, I think it can be a
| good differentiator.
| pengaru wrote:
| > When did this become a metric that mattered to any normal
| person?
|
| Are you seriously going to try gaslight us that nobody cares
| about 0-60 times?
|
| I'll be charitable and assume you're confusing max speed with
| 0-60. Most people care about 0-60 performance as it's what
| they experience after.every.single.stop. They may not know
| the documented 0-60 time, but they generally know and
| appreciate better acceleration.
|
| But I do doubt most people know the actual top speed of their
| vehicles, and relatively few have ever operated their
| vehicles near or at vmax.
| RosanaAnaDana wrote:
| >196mi range
|
| Oof size "La Grande".
| BizarreByte wrote:
| I don't know what Toyota's future looks like in terms of
| electrics, but I know that I won't own an electric car until
| they sell an electric Corolla, or something equivalent.
| willmadden wrote:
| Just get the new Prius Prime. The battery is large enough to
| go 44+ miles all electric, plus you can still use gasoline
| for long road trips. It has more cargo space than a corolla
| and actually looks kind of cool.
| hedora wrote:
| I wouldn't hold my breath for something called a "Corolla".
| Their roadmap is a big gaping hole for the next 3 years.
|
| However, this exists, and kind of looks like a tall Corolla:
|
| https://www.toyota.com/bz4x/
| reducesuffering wrote:
| It's telling how ashamed they are at the range when they have
| an entire screen filled with info about how range is affected
| by a variety of conditions. And the actual 220mi/196mi range is
| found in tiny font hidden behind a tab.
| [deleted]
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| They were supposed to have solid state battery cars and
| vehicles for the Tokyo Olympics. It was obvious that wasn't
| going to happen and it didn't.
|
| Toyota has been completely asleep at the switch for EVs which
| is baffling since they pioneered the hybrid electric vehicle.
|
| What's really strange is after having such a huge lead and
| hybrid electric vehicle, they have really crawled behind other
| manufacturers and producing plug-in hybrid electric vehicles
| which are really just a plug adder onto the vehicle.
|
| It really is mystifying
|
| Keep in mind they're basically isn't a single car manufacturer
| outside of China and maybe Tesla. They're actually doing
| original battery research. They are all partnering with actual
| battery manufacturers like Panasonic, Samsung, etc
| ZeroGravitas wrote:
| They're trying to Osborne effect their competitors.
|
| Don't buy our competitors EVs, something much better is coming
| soon we promise...
| ricardobeat wrote:
| Overcompensating from their statements that EVs were a fad and
| hydrogen was the way to go?
| dv_dt wrote:
| It's Toyota version of the remote work snafu. Buying a
| futuristic car where you still have to go somewhere else to
| fill up is backwards compared to charging at home 99% of the
| time.
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