[HN Gopher] Sweden brings more books and handwriting practice ba...
___________________________________________________________________
Sweden brings more books and handwriting practice back to its tech-
heavy schools
Author : franczesko
Score : 76 points
Date : 2023-09-12 11:30 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (apnews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (apnews.com)
| JR1427 wrote:
| I want my daughter (aged four) to enjoy writing by hand. It's
| part creative, part practical, but I also think that humans have
| a connection to the physical act of making things, or marks, that
| will take a (very) long time to go away, and that we will yearn
| for if we stop.
|
| That said, I love making things, drawing, painting etc, but have
| terrible handwriting, and mostly hate doing it! My teachers never
| let me get my "pen licence", so to this day I much prefer a
| mechanical pencil.
| version_five wrote:
| My guess is it's not technology per se that's the problem but
| that it gets used primarily to make the teacher's life easier and
| substitute for them giving lessons and feedback.
|
| Also, ed-tech built by the lowest bidder is always going to be
| crap. Imagine "learning" as a kid in the same way that corporate
| training is done.
|
| I think this is the right move, even if it's technically solvable
| to provide good tech-heavy education, I don't see it as
| practically possible.
| belugacat wrote:
| Yes. From the article:
|
| _> "We believe the focus should return to acquiring knowledge
| through printed textbooks and teacher expertise, rather than
| acquiring knowledge primarily from freely available digital
| sources that have not been vetted for accuracy," said the
| institute, a highly respected medical school focused on
| research._
|
| Why were schools using unvetted materials in the first place!?
|
| > it's not technology per se that's the problem
|
| That said, handwriting practice is correlated to developing
| fine motor skills, which are documented to be in decline in
| children in a number of countries. Excessive time with
| (touch)screens is terrible on that front.
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| > Why were schools using unvetted materials in the first
| place!?
|
| Maybe to train the kids in vetting materials themselves?
| Seems like an important skill. It's incredible that in school
| you're never confronted two contradictory sources of
| information and have to decide which is right.
| michaelt wrote:
| _> Why were schools using unvetted materials in the first
| place!?_
|
| Eh, who knows what 'vetted for accuracy' means to this guy?
|
| I mean, is Wikipedia allowed? What about Khan Academy, this
| Sal Khan guy doesn't hold even the lowest swedish teacher's
| qualification.
|
| And that's without getting into the vetting of history
| textbooks.
|
| I can well believe the rush to online learning during the
| pandemic lead to the use of material some people would
| consider unvetted.
| ta1243 wrote:
| My son could print perfectly legibly about age 7, then the
| schools tarted forcing letter shapes that were far harder to
| read with loops and smears etc.
|
| His handwriting then devolved into a spidery mess which was
| impossible to read, which meant that marks started slipping.
|
| Joined up handwriting is a disgusting unrequired curse on
| society. If you want to do "beautiful calligraphy"
| (unreadable scrawl) that's fine, have an optional class.
| WillAdams wrote:
| Possibly because things such as:
|
| https://mathcs.clarku.edu/~djoyce/java/elements/elements.htm.
| ..
|
| didn't get grandfathered in, but more likely because teachers
| just search for:
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=handwriting+worksheets
|
| and grab the first free result.
|
| That said, I would recommend:
|
| https://www.handwritingrepair.info/
|
| and
|
| https://sites.google.com/view/briem/free-books
| dotnet00 wrote:
| I think what they might be implying is that electronics make
| it very easy for teachers to rely on potentially inaccurate
| sources on the internet. Rather than that there aren't vetted
| sources that are acceptable to use (there probably are).
|
| I somewhat tend to agree, assuming that the quality of
| teachers in Sweden is comparable to my own experience. In
| hindsight many teachers I had (especially for earlier grades)
| weren't likely to be better than the average rando taken off
| the street when it comes to vetting the material they use.
|
| Only upon getting to university did it finally seem like the
| free/open source materials some professors liked to use were
| vetted.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| Good decision. Just like with Covid lockdowns. Somehow when you
| are away from a screen your mind expands, at least for me. Like
| the screen craves your attention and robs your thoughts. When I
| have some kind of problem with coding, I just move away from the
| computer, get a notebook, start scribbling and writing down
| things and the solution just comes.
| [deleted]
| 6stringmerc wrote:
| There are numerous studies regarding the brain and dexterity
| development but they got co-opted by the video game and quick fix
| industry.
|
| If you want to learn how to write with an active mind, you can't
| have assists. Pencil is okay with erasing, pen is permanent.
|
| Oh well.
| danwee wrote:
| As long as schools allow to store books in their buildings...
|
| I keep seeing (in Europe) kids with school bags full of notebooks
| and books that easily weight 4-5 KG. That's not healthy. The
| problem I see is that kids have homework that require the books
| at home, but then teachers use the books at classroom... so, they
| need to carry them here and there.
| r00fus wrote:
| For the first several years (here in Silicon Valley, CA) my
| kids had little to no content in their school bags (grades
| K-4). Then they had some stuff and we thought it'd be best if
| they got roller bags. Now they're in middle school and the
| roller bags are full and weigh 10kg+ it seems. Insane. I want
| them to ride their bikes to school but with this weight it
| would only happen with rear-racks and panniers. Sigh.
| naavis wrote:
| How will you study books or notes for homework, if they are at
| school? I admit that we had a lot of school books to carry when
| I was young and I occasionally got a sore neck from lugging
| them around, but I wouldn't call it especially unhealthy. You
| anyway don't have that many school books until ages 13 and up
| here (Finland), and by that time you are perfectly capable of
| carrying things.
| batch12 wrote:
| Why is carrying 5kg of books unhealthy for children?
| belugacat wrote:
| "Many authors have concluded that the weight of a school
| backpack should not exceed 10% of the child's body weight"
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4564613/#:~:tex.
| ...
|
| The average 6 year old weighs 20 kg. The average 10 year old
| weighs 30kg.
|
| https://www.disabled-world.com/calculators-charts/height-
| wei...
| arp242 wrote:
| No 6 year old is lugging around a backpack full books;
| these are teens we're talking about.
| willcipriano wrote:
| That paper also finds problems with sitting:
|
| > However, when the child begins to attend school, their
| time spent in a sitting position is extended, which can
| result in disorders of posturogenesis.
| batch12 wrote:
| > However, there is still no clear information about the
| impact that a school backpack has on the formation of
| spinal curvature in the sagittal plane in school children.
|
| The next sentence following the stats quoted from the link.
| lm28469 wrote:
| Many experts will tell you walking 30 min a day is "enough
| exercise" too... I'd be very suspicious of these studies
| kranke155 wrote:
| It's unhealthy to carry them in modern backpacks id say. Poor
| design in a lot of them helps contribute to back problems
| jwestbury wrote:
| I've spent a lot of time hiking and backpacking. I've also
| had to walk five miles home (that's about 8km for those not
| in insane countries that start with "United") when buses or
| trains were cancelled due to weather.
|
| I absolutely refuse to buy a backpack without a hip belt of
| some sort, because while you might not really need it for
| the five-minute walk from the bus stop or train station to
| the office, that changes when you're carrying it for a two-
| hour walk in the snow.
| naavis wrote:
| Yep, a hip belt on a backpack makes a world of difference
| when you can put most of the weight on your hips instead
| of your shoulders.
| Ekaros wrote:
| If we take a young child weighting 20-30 kg, 5 kg would be
| 1/4th to 1/6th of body mass... 15-20 kg or 10-15kg carried
| daily by adult is not a light load. And children have less
| developed bodies.
| konschubert wrote:
| Those digital blackboards are pretty bad.
|
| They are laggy and have lower resolution than a chalk board or a
| whiteboard.
|
| And what for? What can they do that a whiteboard cannot?
|
| (teachers should write on a board and not use slides, because
| slides cause teachers to go too fast and to jump over important
| details.
| Manuel_D wrote:
| Easy to erase. Easy to show slides, videos, or animations. Easy
| to annotate said media with the digital market.
|
| Slides are entirely appropriate, especially if the teacher is
| teaching the same class multiple times per day.
| konschubert wrote:
| > Slides are entirely appropriate, especially if the teacher
| is teaching the same class multiple times per day.
|
| I have had Maths professors who were teaching the same class
| for decades. They would pencil it all out on the blackboard.
| We copied it by hand. This slowed everything down and we got
| time to digest the content. First questions could be asked
| and answered.
|
| And yes, we all had laptops, but we kept them in the
| backpack.
|
| It was awesome.
|
| (German university ~10 years ago)
| bitwize wrote:
| Just wheel in the frickin' TV on a cart! Is that so hard?
| agomez314 wrote:
| Hasn't it been proved as well that writing things out by hand is
| the most effective way to memorize things? Wouldn't all schools
| want to teach this valuable tool to students?
| lapama wrote:
| I am a scientist and over the last years I stopped using
| notebooks for notes... I lost something, you connect deeper
| with your thoughts by writing with hand. Now I occasionally use
| A3 papers when I see need, but still. I will take a notebook
| tomorrow!
| chamanbuga wrote:
| I haven't looked into this, just responding intuitively, but
| aren't we trained to learn better by writing by hand because
| of our upbringing. If the next generation stops hand writing
| and starts typing from early childhood education, wouldn't it
| be the same for them?
| waynesonfire wrote:
| "New research has analyzed brainwave patterns in both
| children and young adults while they wrote by hand and as
| they typed on a keyboard. The results revealed distinctly
| different brain patterns between the activities, leading
| the researchers to suggest learning is more effective when
| it is accompanied by handwriting."
| atonse wrote:
| Handwriting is one of those things I seem to have an argument
| with my son (he's 10). And it isn't about him having that
| specific skill. But it's about having a sense of pride in your
| work and not half-assing things.
|
| But my wife and I struggle to get anyone to agree with us. The
| teachers don't seem to care (which my son is happy to relay to
| me).
|
| Other parents say why bother, it's an outdated skill (I actually
| disagree, even though my handwriting is often bad from lack of
| practice, when I do fill up forms by hand, I understand the
| importance of legibility).
|
| But again, to me it is symptomatic of a larger issue where I feel
| that more and more, kids are not taught to have a sense or
| standard in the quality of their work and improve upon it,
| regardless of the particular skill.
|
| I still remember my grandfather telling us, everything you do,
| you must strive to do it well. It was about having pride in your
| work.
|
| Am I alone in this? Looking for a good counterpoint.
| orochimaaru wrote:
| I have a good hand and enjoy writing with the gel 0.5. Cursive
| was drilled into me as a child.
|
| I will still take notes and write my thoughts out on paper. It
| somehow manages to provide me focus and shut out distractions.
| It's also a space I can do a lot of free form thinking and tie
| things together.
|
| Assists shouldn't be given at an early age. I believe they are
| counter productive.
|
| Another example. We never used calculators till 11th grade. All
| calculations had to be done by hand. I can still quickly
| approximate to know if numbers are in the ballpark.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| >I still remember my grandfather telling us, everything you do,
| you must strive to do it well. It was about having pride in
| your work.
|
| This seems fairly contradictory to me. He's not choosing to do
| it, he's forced to learn some outdated skill. Let him excel in
| some useful skill, like mathematics.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Teachers don't care about handwriting anymore because
| handwriting is not part of standardized testing, and that is
| how schools and teachers are evaluated now.
| linuxftw wrote:
| I hated writing as a kid. I think part of the problem was that
| my thoughts were much faster than my pen, so I by default wrote
| as fast as I could. If I tried to write more legibly, my
| writing would still look poor compared to many others, and I'd
| have to slow to a fraction of the speed, so why bother? For
| instance, whenever I have to write my email address on a form
| (you know, it has to be perfectly legible or you won't receive
| your email), and half the letters still look like trash.
| ck425 wrote:
| > And it isn't about him having that specific skill. But it's
| about having a sense of pride in your work and not half-assing
| things.
|
| Maybe you'd have more luck teaching him the latter if you
| focused on skills/work that are clearly useful. Or useful to
| him atleast even if you disagree that handwriting is outdated.
|
| Take pride in your work and doing it well is a useful lesson
| (and unfortunately not something I'm great at personally) but
| if he doesn't see any value in that specific work he'll never
| even comprehend the difference between work done well and work
| half-assed, never mind strive for it. All he see's is you
| asking him to put more effort into a pointless activity.
|
| I reckon this is one of the reasons that sports and arts are
| relatively successful at teaching kids life skills like
| discipline. It's easier for kids to see the immediate value of
| being good at those than other skills, so their more motivated
| and lessons stick.
| atonse wrote:
| Good points. I am getting a solid smacking and lectures from
| HackerNews (the kind I often dole out) but appreciate the
| input from all of you.
|
| I know my son especially will. Well, he IS obsessed with
| Soccer.
| ck425 wrote:
| I always hated football myself but if he's into it look up
| the stories many coaches/managers tell of how they
| recognised future top players early on because of their
| discipline/work ethic. Those might inspire him more.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| I don't think you're alone. And I appreciate your arguments.
| They're valid, even if I disagree.
|
| My perspective is that there is an ever growing wealth of
| knowledge and skills and only so much time in the day. We see
| this conflict in some hardcore parents who sign their kids up
| for an entire childhood of studies.
|
| I think it's deeply important to have pride in your work and to
| do it carefully, patiently, methodically. I'm not sure this
| must be practiced with any specific skill.
|
| I think doctors are an example of how this can be at odds with
| reality. Do they not take pride in their work, or do they have
| just so much to study that they cannot afford the expense?
|
| I think it's also important to identify that this discussion
| often conflates two things: cursive handwriting and legible
| printing. I believe schools still endeavour to teach kids to
| print legibly.
| atonse wrote:
| Good point that there has to be some kind of decision about
| each skill. I should clarify I am not asking for us to be
| great at every single thing.
|
| But at least have that debate in your head. Is this a skill I
| want to put time into improving?
|
| And "nobody else cares" shouldn't be a _major_ part of that
| argument.
|
| Our school doesn't teach them to print legibly. That's my
| point. I've seen his homework and sometimes it borders on
| illegible.
| ck425 wrote:
| > And "nobody else cares" shouldn't be a _major_ part of
| that argument.
|
| I disagree. Nobody else caring is a strong indication the
| skill isn't that valuable. If nobody else cares and he
| can't see a reason to care himself then why would he decide
| it's a skill he wants to put time into improving?
|
| Tbh it sounds like your son has considered the merits and
| decided it's not a skill worth working on. You just
| disagree.
| david38 wrote:
| Agreed. I have limited time in my day. If I spent too
| much on things nobody else cared about, I would be
| wasting a lot of time.
|
| This would translate to other more important tasks not
| getting done.
| thfuran wrote:
| I think you've taken it too far--it's not just that
| others don't care for it but that he also doesn't. Doing
| something that you care about but others don't isn't
| necessarily a waste of time.
| atonse wrote:
| > I disagree. Nobody else caring is a strong indication
| the skill isn't that valuable. If nobody else cares and
| he can't see a reason to care himself then why would he
| decide it's a skill he wants to put time into improving?
|
| Hmmm didn't think about it that way. Definitely a more
| practical approach.
| sebzim4500 wrote:
| I'm not sure I understand your position here. If he doesn't
| care about his handwriting, and his school doesn't care
| about his handwriting, what's the point of improving it?
|
| I honestly can't think of the last time I wrote anything
| down except my signature, and I doubt this trend is going
| to reverse.
| atonse wrote:
| I was trying to make a bigger point (using handwriting as
| one example) of having an innate sense of wanting to do
| better quality work in whatever you do. Maybe having the
| entire population with bad handwriting will push us
| faster into digital forms.
|
| But as many have stated, maybe I'm just a cranky old dad
| and things will work themselves out with things he's
| genuinely interested in. :-)
| verve_rat wrote:
| But here the thing, to your son handwriting isn't work,
| it's not something to take pride in, it is a chore, it is
| toil with little point or reward.
|
| If you want him to engage in an activity, you need to
| show that it has some value, any value at all.
|
| Taking pride in pointless activity is, well, pointless.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| Writing is extremely important. First google result,
|
| Writing is an invaluable tool for exercising our
| cognitive faculties. Extensive and diverse research has
| suggested links between writing and mental capacities in
| such domains as memory, critical thinking, creativity,
| verbal skills, and overall health.
|
| Keep encouraging it.
| gumby wrote:
| My son was in a school that taught English via immersion (they
| hired English teachers who couldn't even speak any German).
|
| Starting with grade 1 the kids wrote exclusively with fountain
| pens, and were marked early on on penmanship. Except in
| English, where they were allowed to write with pencils or biros
| so of course they did because it was a change, and the teachers
| didn't seem to care about penmanship at all.
|
| Two decades later his writing with a fountain pen in any
| language is as clear as a bell, while anything else results in
| a scrawl. I don't believe it's because the tool is superior in
| some way, I think it's simply the attention to detail got wired
| in.
|
| ==
|
| An amusing nerd side point: In grade 1 they learnt a letter a
| week, and from that were reading by xmas. To avoid confusing
| the kids, English was supposed to use "German letterforms" but
| really they are pretty much the same! Anyway the funny thing is
| that in English they start the first week with "A" (Apple,
| Ant), then "B" (Banana, Buffalo) and so on. German was taught
| in the alphabetic frequency order: "E" (Elefant), then "N"
| (Nase), "I" (Igel) and so on. Disappointingly, Christmas came
| before they got to ss as I was curious what they would do (no
| word starts with it).
| Zelphyr wrote:
| My kids have gone to a Montessori school since pre-K and those
| schools teach handwriting. It's not done because of how much or
| little the student will use that handwriting later in life but
| more because, early on, it helps develop fine motor skills.
|
| Now that they're in high school, my daughter has excellent
| penmanship. My son... not so much. :) But! He can do it.
| gizmondo wrote:
| An alternative hypothesis is that it's done because it has
| always been done, and the fine motor skills thing is merely
| an attempt to rationalize this practice.
| biggoodwolf wrote:
| I went to the top private school in my country
|
| Cursive handwriting was not optional, same for spelling.
| Teachers would flunk people and no, there are no repeats at
| that school. From 200 in kinder, only 70 finished HS
|
| You are on the right side, find people who give a damn about
| education.
| sebzim4500 wrote:
| >I still remember my grandfather telling us, everything you do,
| you must strive to do it well. It was about having pride in
| your work.
|
| You aren't alone, but I think this is terrible advice. You
| should figure out what you want to do and find the best way to
| do it. The best way will probably involve half-assing a lot of
| stuff, since you only have a finite amount of time/energy.
|
| I had a teacher at school who used to say "if it's worth doing
| then it's worth doing properly", but he mainly said it about
| things that weren't worth doing.
| dotnet00 wrote:
| Relating to this, a big realization for me was in highschool
| when I was given the advice by an elder sibling that I didn't
| need to try to do everything perfectly if I had other
| important things to do. Eg. it's okay to take a small hit on
| one class's grade by skipping a weekly homework assignment if
| it means being able to focus on the term end project from
| another class.
|
| In hindsight it seems kind of obvious, but I was so used to
| the parental pressure to just do everything perfectly from my
| earlier years that it had never occurred to me to prioritize.
| Although I suppose it does still require you to have a mature
| sense of priorities, since skipping all assignments to party
| every day is obviously not healthy.
| mongol wrote:
| Is it terrible advice? Those are quite strong words. I don't
| think it is terrible. It may not be for everyone but I can
| surely see that such a philosophy and approach to life can be
| fulfilling. I think it can make you focus, do less but do it
| better. Quality over quantity, kind of.
| tmn wrote:
| I agree. I don't think it's inconsistent to implement said
| advice and to utilize Pareto Principle.
| harry8 wrote:
| > "if it's worth doing then it's worth doing properly"
|
| Big life lesson for me was "if it's worth doing then it's
| worth doing poorly" Even if it's more worthwhile doing it a
| little better (and once done poorly you can work toward that
| if it makes sense).
| owenmarshall wrote:
| I always liked this quote on officers which has been
| attributed to dozens of different generals throughout
| history:
|
| > I distinguish four types. There are clever, hardworking,
| stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are
| combined. Some are clever and hardworking; their place is
| the General Staff. The next ones are stupid and lazy; they
| make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine
| duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for
| the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the
| mental clarity and strength of nerve necessary for
| difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is both
| stupid and hardworking; he must not be entrusted with any
| responsibility because he will always only cause damage.
|
| I try to be clever and lazy in all things :-)
| balfirevic wrote:
| You one-sidedly pick a skill for someone else, that they don't
| enjoy and don't find useful and that you can't reasonably
| justify as being useful.
|
| Then you insist that they do it well.
|
| But that's not enough - you also insist that they have to
| _want_ to do it well.
|
| Which you also can't justify, other than very abstractly, by
| insisting that everything they do - including things they
| didn't choose themselves, don't care about, don't find useful
| and won't actually find useful - they should want to do well.
|
| I'd be more worried for someone who didn't find that
| preposterous.
| vkou wrote:
| > Looking for a good counterpoint.
|
| You only have a limited number of hours in life to devote to
| acquiring mastery, and there is a nearly unlimited number of
| subjects that are worth mastering.
|
| Instead of trying to be good at everything you're doing, decide
| _what_ you 're going to be good at, what you're going to
| outsource and half-ass, and work towards being good at the
| former, while getting by/paying other people to do with the
| latter.
|
| You need to take pride in _something_ , but you're fooling
| yourself if you think you can do everything well - or that its
| a good investment of your time.
|
| Maybe instead of forcing him to become an expert at a skill
| with incredibly poor return on investment, you should drive him
| towards becoming an expert at... Writing.
| kqr wrote:
| I have recently seen some children work out things (mechanics,
| strategies, communication) to perfection in video games. They
| are incredibly perceptive critics of their own and other's
| performance.
|
| They are probably much better than your grandfather at both
| game and meta-game, because they are standing on the shoulders
| of slightly larger people. They are familiar with the
| conventions and input methods and community and thus have a
| base understanding that few older people do.
| atonse wrote:
| Funny I used to use this argument when people used to
| complain to me about video games. They can be incredibly
| complex and utilize your brain in amazing ways.
|
| And I actually have zero issues with him playing video games.
| The sports ones involve building your team, trading players,
| etc. That's all pretty complex stuff.
| sneak wrote:
| By this logic, should not schools teach calligraphy?
| floren wrote:
| Sure, why not?
| sneak wrote:
| Because it's a waste of time in an age where we have
| machines that can do a much better job?
|
| The same reason we don't wash clothes on a washboard in a
| river anymore?
|
| Teaching how to make pretty smudges on dead trees to store
| and communicate information is in the exact same bucket, to
| me. It's a an utterly useless and wasteful anachronism,
| like mechanical watchmaking or praying. Given that we have
| limited time, energy, and budget to educate children, it is
| actively harmful to their future.
| WillAdams wrote:
| No, that seems to be the prevailing viewpoint, which I find
| sad.
|
| Powerful argument for Sloyd Woodworking instruction coming back
| to schools:
|
| https://rainfordrestorations.com/category/woodworking-techni...
|
| >Students may never pick up a tool again, but they will forever
| have the knowledge of how to make and evaluate things with your
| hand and your eye and appreciate the labor of others
|
| See my other post in this discussion for a link to Kate
| Gladstone's site and as well as SE Briem's list of calligraphy
| texts.
|
| A touchstone for me on this is John Quincy Adams' translation
| of Wieland's Oberon:
|
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/458794
|
| which it is well worth finding a facsimile copy of.
|
| Or see:
|
| https://www.flickr.com/photos/21860485@N06/albums/7215764113...
|
| One thing to try, would be to have the child write thank you
| notes.
| marcinzm wrote:
| >But again, to me it is symptomatic of a larger issue where I
| feel that more and more, kids are not taught to have a sense or
| standard in the quality of their work and improve upon it,
| regardless of the particular skill.
|
| You mean so they can work 60 hours for a mediocre salary with
| little upwards mobility that won't even let them buy a house
| anymore while sinking in student debt?
|
| Knowing when work for the sake of work is a waste of your life
| is a very important skill now that you can't walk into a random
| company Monday morning and come out with a job
| iepathos wrote:
| Depends what profession you end up pursuing. If your son
| pursues computer science then likely never need to use
| handwriting ever again. As a 10+ year software engineer I've
| never needed to handwrite anything professionally, not once.
| Personally, still like to do the occasional handwritten card or
| letter for friends and family.
| natoliniak wrote:
| > not once
|
| not even on a white board?
| ghaff wrote:
| Mostly don't even use those these days--basically never in
| an office. Collaborative docs are more common. I mean you
| need basic at least somewhat legible printing but that's
| probably fine for a lot of things these days.
|
| Handwriting was always my worst grade in elementary school
| and don't really know Palmer script any longer.
| rgblambda wrote:
| Everything I do in my work (Software Engineering) is about just
| getting it done/ getting v1.0 over the line. Not my choice, but
| leadership don't seem to care about things being done well so
| long as they're done.
| jbd0 wrote:
| Your son could have dysgraphia. My son (14, homeschooled)
| struggles with writing, and it was hard to not think of his
| poor writing as a result of him being lazy or not caring.
|
| We purchased some material from Dianne Craft to help with his
| dysgraphia: https://diannecraft.org/dysgraphia-what-is-
| dysgraphia/
|
| The exercises definitely helped.
| YeBanKo wrote:
| Handwriting is like drawing or music. Do you absolutely need
| it? No. But it is another mode of operation, that develops
| brain. Arguably, reading and writing/typing may become obsolete
| with next decade or two, thanks to voice interface enhanced by
| NN models.
| sparrowInHand wrote:
| I think your focus on kaligraphy is damaging to the lesson. You
| should pick something your son values, and teach him to drive
| it to perfection. Then watch him getting annoyed when you half-
| ass it in front of him.
|
| All education is a crude attempt at telepathy and while
| repeated confrontation can transport the value you place upon a
| thing, it does not make it intrinsic. Also skills are filtered
| for right to exist every generation. Skills become value less
| is a normal and even healthy thing.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| it's a child. By definition it doesn't know what it values.
| This has seemingly been forgotten but parents have a
| mentorship and guiding role. Their job is to cultivate in
| their children interest in activities in the first place.
| When I was young I hated that my parents made me learn an
| instrument, because I wanted to play video games and eat ice
| cream all day. As an adult (who became a part time musician)
| I understand the value of it.
|
| "do what your son wants' gets you children raised on an ipad
| with no education in the arts.
| gizmondo wrote:
| When I was young I hated that my parents made me learn an
| instrument. As an adult I still hate that they did that,
| there is no value in it for me. There are parents that
| pursue their own interests through their kids (who often
| can't resist), I find that objectionable.
| anon____ wrote:
| Calligraphy is an art form. The good thing about art is that
| you can't argue with it. Practice for the beauty!
| tomjen3 wrote:
| Counterpoint: Pareto principle. For 20% of effort you get 80%
| of results, so you are better of 1/5ing-assing 2 things for a
| total of less than half the effort and more than 50% more
| gains.
|
| Your grandfathers advice might have been sane back in the day
| when you could only do one or two things and so quickly hit
| diminishing returns, but today it does not matter greatly.
|
| More emotional argument. What do you call the person who does
| more than they get rewarded for (over a long time?): a sucker.
| And who wants to be a sucker?
| mongol wrote:
| I once saw a documentary about Nelson Mandela. When he read a
| newspaper he was very careful to line up the pages and to
| crease the paper so it was straight and had even corners
| between the different pages. He did not half-ass the act of
| turning pages in a newspaper. It seemed like such a waste of
| time. How much less must he have had time to read, wasting
| time to turn pages like that?
|
| On the other hand he had an incredible reputation and was
| admired as a leader across the world. Perhaps his attention
| to detail mattered even when it seemed like a waste.
| stanrivers wrote:
| I think there is something very different about handwriting
| than typing. Like, listen to a lecture and write notes on a
| pad, and then go to the lecture the next day and type them on a
| computer.
|
| Then, wait a week, and take a test without reviewing anything.
|
| My money, based on my experience, is on you better remembering
| the handwritten notes. I think this is because you cannot write
| as fast as you type, so you have to hear, think about what is
| important, and summarize when handwriting. When typing, you can
| get almost all the words someone says typed out. So you switch
| to "hear-to-type" mode without thinking.
|
| So, I think it is important for learning to have that skill. I
| think it is better in the real world too, for some use cases.
| If I am in a meeting with a counterparty, I take hand written
| notes. I rarely look at the notes after. Why? I remember what
| we talked about.
|
| I used to bring a computer and type out notes - and I still do
| if I need perfect information to reference later - but when I
| do that, my notes take the place of my memory.
|
| It seems more efficient to handwrite my notes and have my
| memory be my memory instead.
| whatisyour wrote:
| Research has shown that writing notes by hand leads to better
| retention than typing even if the notes are never read in the
| future. However, given that writing is just 7000 years old,
| I'm not sure how long will it take before typing to become
| the more natural skill (if typing does last for 7000 years
| that is)
| vkou wrote:
| Or, better yet, why not actually prepare for the test, by
| doing the reading, and the homework?
|
| Notes are an incredibly poor substitute for putting in the
| actual work of learning.
| DharmaPolice wrote:
| This is my own personal bias talking here but I think
| handwriting might be a poor subject to teach the wider lesson
| of taking pride in your work. My hand writing has always been
| terrible. It was a big deal 30 years ago (when I was at school)
| - it's not really been an issue since. But it's not whether
| it's outdated or not, it's just not something which easily
| improves with practice (at least, in my experience). Even when
| I spent a lot of time and energy trying to slowly draw
| individual letters the end result was still messy.
|
| My problem was exacerbated because I sat next to a kid who was
| a great artist. He used to draw comic strips (at age 9-10) and
| the lettering looked professional (at least to my eyes). Yes if
| I had spent an enormous amount of time and effort I could have
| improved my handwriting but I don't think I'd ever be able to
| produce 1/5th the quality of what he did. My hand just wasn't
| (and isn't) that steady.
|
| With other subjects you can spend a lot less time and improve
| quality a lot easier and faster. With something like code
| layout it's much easier to brute force tidiness in a way that
| just isn't possible with handwriting (or drawing).
| tootie wrote:
| I don't think it's a generational thing. I think it varies by
| family. Neither my parents nor grandparents really pushed that
| kind of message even though they were very focused on
| education. My family is Jewish-American and still have strong
| cultural memory of being deliberately excluded from
| opportunities despite effort. I absorbed it as a dual mandate
| to learn as much as possible and to play whatever game the
| schools needed you to play to get recognition.
|
| I also had terrible handwriting despite tons of experience.
| Meanwhile I knew kids who wrote like typewriters from the 4th
| grade just due to natural talent.
| kenoh wrote:
| 45 here. I certainly didn't and don't appreciate the fact that
| I spent hours on Saturdays improving my cursive during early
| education because my writing was horrible unless I took too
| long to do it. I envy the younger generations.
| hangonhn wrote:
| Rather than argue about this, perhaps it may be better to see
| if you can get your son to be interested in practicing
| calligraphy, where the whole point of the exercise is to write
| in beautiful way. Otherwise, you're trying to win an argument
| about something that is often tangential to another goal.
|
| You and I both have terrible handwriting. In my life, it hasn't
| been a hindrance to my work as a software engineer so maybe
| your son has a point. However, I do agree that doing things
| well has merit but maybe reframing it will get you farther
| along this goal. And lastly, maybe you can achieve the same
| goal through other means? Perhaps in playing an instrument or
| practicing some other skill. I think the value you want to
| teach your son is practicing something and doing it well. It
| doesn't need to be handwriting.
| kranke155 wrote:
| There's plenty of scientific evidence that handwriting is good
| for you
|
| https://redbooth.com/blog/handwriting-and-memory
| brtkdotse wrote:
| > I still remember my grandfather telling us, everything you
| do, you must strive to do it well.
|
| I'd like to counter with "perfect is the enemy of good".
| Knowing when to half-ass something can be a skill in of itself.
| jameshart wrote:
| I think your second sentence needed a verb. This would be a
| case where half-assing it did not.
| harry8 wrote:
| I think I understand op, there was an 'and' missing that
| seems obvious? Was it edited? Yours I do not understand.
|
| > This would be a case where half-assing it did not.
|
| Did not what? Did that woosh over my head?
| jameshart wrote:
| Op edited. Originally read
|
| > Knowing when half-assing something can be a skill in of
| itself.
| brtkdotse wrote:
| Wrong tense. Chalking it up on English being my third
| language :)
| waynesonfire wrote:
| I don't read this as a counter as the skill you mention is in
| full alignment with the grandfathers advice.
| toxik wrote:
| It is a well-established fact that the mechanical act of
| handwriting notes is good for memorization. Perhaps it is
| meditative, perhaps we're just physical beings -- whatever it
| is, typewriting on a computer is not as good.
|
| A famous man whose name I forget once said "Plans are useless,
| planning is indispensable," and I would like to paraphrase it
| as "notes are useless, note-taking is indispensable."
| brtkdotse wrote:
| > "notes are useless, note-taking is indispensable."
|
| This is very, very true for me. I read, optimistically, 5% of
| my notes.
|
| As a corollary, I'm unable to take notes if the notepad is
| too fancy. I get analysis paralysis from something like a
| moleskine, like something this nice deserves nicely formatted
| notes. Only cheapo gas station notpads work for me.
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| haha college-ruled exam workbooks for me. Basic as can be.
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| This is not at all a well-established fact. There's one
| questionable study on this topic that used to go viral
| occassionally, and that's it.
| ghaff wrote:
| I'd add that, as someone who does articles about events and
| the like, it's _much_ more efficient for me to be able to
| cut /paste/edit from typed material than to transcribe from
| my abbreviated and hard to read scrawls.
| [deleted]
| astura wrote:
| >kids are not taught to have a sense or standard in the quality
| of their work and improve upon it, regardless of the particular
| skill.
|
| I'm over 40 and I was never taught that- not at school and
| certainly not at home.
| atonse wrote:
| Maybe I'm mostly remembering my grandpa haha.
|
| We were penalized for untidy work in school though. That was
| my early years in India.
| blackhaz wrote:
| The onslaught of greedy Google and Microsoft execs on our
| education system will not allow this to happen.
| INTPenis wrote:
| I actually had hand-writing in school, in Sweden in the late 90s.
| But since I didn't practice it outside of school, and was such a
| computer nerd, I can't write good at all now. Whenever I have to
| sign like 3 copies of a contract, I sign with 3 different
| signatures.
|
| For a while I had a pen pal and that was very good practice, but
| it was slow, and painful to write a whole letter. I'd have to
| keep it up daily.
| the-smug-one wrote:
| I don't think they'll be taught "skrivstil"/cursive, I think
| it's literally going from less iPads where you play Hangman or
| whatever to learn to read to more reading and writing. Cursive
| sucks ass, I hated doing that so much.
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