[HN Gopher] The molecule DIM reduces biofilms causing dental pla...
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The molecule DIM reduces biofilms causing dental plaque: study
Author : hanniabu
Score : 103 points
Date : 2023-09-10 12:11 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (scitechdaily.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (scitechdaily.com)
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Whatever dental society that is gets paid for giving dentists
| licences is not gonna approve this if it means it will lower
| cavities by a lot, a big portion of dentists fees is from
| patching up cavities and it's sideffects.
| TheAceOfHearts wrote:
| I can't wait for daily teeth brushing to be a thing of the past.
| It amazes me we've had so many technological advances while still
| having such primitive mouth cleaning solutions.
|
| There's people that basically never have to brush their teeth,
| why can't their magical bacteria be used by everyone? I recently
| asked a dentist in training and they told me the bacteria would
| die after eating the plaque. Even if you have to regularly re-add
| the bacteria, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal. You could
| make a lozenge which you suck on once a week, and it's still less
| effort than brushing daily.
| [deleted]
| anonym29 wrote:
| Technically, teeth brushing can become a thing of the past for
| you at any time, if you're not in love with your teeth.
| WhereIsTheTruth wrote:
| If you are referring to implants, you still have to brush
| them daily
| pdimitar wrote:
| Do you really have to do it daily with them? I have two
| zirconium-based implanted teeth and they're always smooth.
| Zero biological film or gunk on them, and I had some
| periods this year during which I didn't brush teeth for 4-5
| days. All other teeth were nasty but the zirconium implants
| looked and felt pristine. (Sadly still prone to food bits
| getting stuck in-between though, but oral shower and
| interdental brushes take care of that.)
|
| Though I agree that even if you replace all your teeth you
| still have to brush somewhat because the gums need the
| cleanup as well and you can't replace those. Though I'd
| think I can get away with a much shorter procedure than
| what I do for several years now (powerful oral shower,
| interdental brushes, brushing teeth and gums, and
| Listerine).
| WhereIsTheTruth wrote:
| If I remember correctly, it's mostly inter-dental
| brushing/flushing to avoid gum related problems or food
| getting stuck (infections)
| pdimitar wrote:
| That's what I thought, thanks. Interdental brushing is
| the one and only unavoidable cleaning procedure even if
| all your teeth are artificial, it seems.
|
| Gums and inter-teeth space are still prone to pollution
| that can easily grow to infections and ultimately nasty
| stuff like periodontitis (I got operated to be cured of
| it several years ago).
| agumonkey wrote:
| I think he had soup and straws in mind
| bigbillheck wrote:
| Never brushing your teeth is a great way for nobody to ever
| want to smooch you.
| amelius wrote:
| But note that more brushing != more smooching.
| dghughes wrote:
| Only if you brush up against somone.
| bigbillheck wrote:
| It's necessary but not sufficient.
| xorbax wrote:
| It depends on what range of the x-axis you select, and what
| units you use for y
| lijok wrote:
| Speak for yourself - my wife is a dentist
| happytoexplain wrote:
| I can attest that this is not a rule. Some people simply do
| not develop bad breath despite never brushing (I am not one
| of them). I assume it is a lucky minority.
| tsss wrote:
| I would still brush my teeth after every meal if I can. Not
| only to prevent smells. I find it also reduces the frequency of
| snacking and thus helps to keep the weight down.
| SanderNL wrote:
| [flagged]
| TheHumanist wrote:
| Seems like an unnecessarily condescending comment
| testbjjl wrote:
| Weird that the parent comment somehow triggered this
| person. I'd be curious as to why, perhaps a dentist or a
| dental sympathizer?
| happytoexplain wrote:
| What a strange thing to have this feeling about.
| TheAceOfHearts wrote:
| Are you trying to make a point that it's unrealistic? Because
| there's definitely people that don't have to brush their
| teeth daily to maintain great dental health. Calling it
| magical bacteria is a bit of a hyperbole, but I figured
| anyone reading my post in good faith would catch that.
| avery17 wrote:
| Do you have a source of this claim that people exist who
| dont "need" to brush their teeth?
| [deleted]
| happytoexplain wrote:
| I've never looked into the facts, but anecdotally I've
| known of two close friends who never (and I mean never -
| not an observation, but an admission) brushed their teeth
| and never had one solitary cavity. They ate pretty normal
| American diets (meat, sugar, carbs, soda, coffee, but
| nothing in excess). Additionally, I've heard this same
| second-hand anecdote from others multiple times in my
| life.
| ipnon wrote:
| Interestingly enough, it's a cannabinoid receptor agonist.
|
| https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ardp.202200493
| beefman wrote:
| Conveniently doesn't mention that DIM smells horrible!
| kej wrote:
| I feel like I've read some variation of "new thing will make
| tooth brushing obsolete" every few years for the last two decades
| at least, but they never seem to come to fruition.
| briHass wrote:
| I'd like to see more research on bleach (sodium hypochlorite) for
| this purpose. The limited studies out there are very promising
| for bleach as a mouthwash, where it compares favorably to
| chlorhexidine, another bacteria killer available as prescription
| mouthwash. Unlike chlorhexidine, however, it doesn't stain teeth
| as significantly, and it's obviously much cheaper. (Note: the
| concentration is 0.1% typically, so diluted from the 6% common in
| the jug)
|
| One interesting point I saw was that bleach is unlikely to
| promote oral cancers, unlike alcohol mouthwash or oxygenating
| compounds like hydrogen peroxide.
| vidarh wrote:
| Where is chlorhexidine prescription only? Here (UK) there are
| several brands sold everywhere as daily mouthwash.
|
| Staining w/chlorhexidine appears to be very individual.
| klipt wrote:
| I've had several hygienists and dentists tell me Closys (sodium
| fluoride) is great for killing the bad bacteria without
| staining.
| dlg wrote:
| There was a version of streptococcus mutans developed that didn't
| produce tons of lactic acid and would have pretty much ended
| tooth decay back in 2000. Iirc, it was built to outcompete the
| regular bacteria too. As far as I can tell there's been no
| progress in commercializing this---I assume because of the cost
| and complexity of FDA approval.
|
| E.g., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12369203/
| TheHumanist wrote:
| I wonder if there is anything more to the reason that it has
| never gained any real traction? A lot of groups would stand to
| lose a lot of money if something like this become used by even
| half the population. This would mean a massive reduction in
| purchases of many dental products, visits to dentists,
| procedures needed by dentists, etc.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| How'd you call this lactic acid promoting cartel? Big
| Toothpaste? Big Plaque? Big Teeth?
| maximinus_thrax wrote:
| You're trying to make a joke here, but please do some
| reasearch about the dental lobbying groups. The ADA is no
| joke.
|
| What OP is implying is not really tinfoil hat material. As
| one example, one of the reasons parroted (by democrats,
| actually) that we won't have universal healthcare ever, is
| that it's going to cause thousands of health insurance jobs
| to dissapear.
| beebmam wrote:
| Then why doesn't a country with a nationalized health
| care system do it? There are incentives in other
| countries that would encourage this, if it were possible.
| zaat wrote:
| I'm not saying there isn't such a country, but the
| countries with national health care that I know about
| don't or don't fully cover dental health (presumably
| because one can live in perfect health with a rotting
| mouth and not due to a strong dental healthcare lobby
| /s).
| peteradio wrote:
| How oh how did our ancestors survive without the dental
| lobby!? How did the children with their rotten ass teeth
| consume all their goodies and sodie pops with such poorly
| functioning teeth!? Its a complete mystery, one I'm sure
| is lost to the sands of the 1950s.
| zaat wrote:
| They died at young age, miserably?
| klipt wrote:
| Most of our ancestors just ate much less refined sugar,
| so probably had less need for dental care in the first
| place.
| zaat wrote:
| > ...there was never yet philosopher that could endure
| the toothache patiently (shakespeare)
|
| Why defer to a baseless "probably" when you can easily
| check what is known about the past? Wikipedia doesn't put
| the blame on refined sugar but rather point to farming as
| to what correlated with dental issues. Are you familiar
| with the barber's pole? that's the sign for the location
| where our ancestors went to be relived from owning teeth.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber%27s_pole
| maximinus_thrax wrote:
| My nationalized healthcare comment is unlreated to the
| existence of the dental industry in its current form. It
| was just an example to point out that protecting jobs is
| something our elected leaders are worried about when
| lobbyists are paying up (they're not really that worried
| about jobs dissapearing due to automation or mergers or
| monolopies, etc..)
|
| Regardless of the type of healthcare (nationalized,
| private, etc..) the dental health industry is still
| getting paid, the only diffference is who is doing it.
| The original statement was that a breakthrough in
| preventive medicine will destroy a large portion of the
| bread and butter of the dental health industry, which
| will lead to it being only a fraction of what it is
| today. Industries fight tooth and nail to keep growing.
| Guess what they do when their existence is threatened.
| zaat wrote:
| > Regardless of the type of healthcare (nationalized,
| private, etc..) the dental health industry is still
| getting paid, the only diffference is who is doing it.
|
| No, one difference is who is doing it, another one is the
| sums being payed. That's why the dental industry in
| countries with national health care fight to stay out of
| the general health system. The lucrative compensation of
| the practitioners lead people to want to go specifically
| for that. If it were part of national health care it
| would cease to be sure path to accumulating loads of
| money, the incentive to become a dentist as well as the
| power of current practitioner will be similar to that of
| family doctors or orthopedic specialist. Spoiler alert:
| in countries with national health care their status is
| higher then the status of teachers in national school
| systems, but not by much.
| Finnucane wrote:
| What's more likely, vast cabal conspiring against competing
| product, or competing product just doesn't work as well as
| claimed? There aren't nearly as many grand conspiracies out
| there as there should be.
| amelius wrote:
| > it was built to outcompete the regular bacteria too
|
| What if it invades the gut?
| piuantiderp wrote:
| Very different conditions
| tyre wrote:
| Looks like that research led the lead author to found a
| company[0] and develop a probiotic tablet[1]. Seems like it
| could be worth trying.
|
| [0]: https://www.dentistryiq.com/dentistry/oral-systemic-
| health/a...
|
| [1]: https://probiorahealth.com/
| darkclouds wrote:
| [1]: https://probiorahealth.com/ resolves to google, yet it
| shows in google results, so dont know if the HN hug of death
| has forced this change.
|
| Last scan by the wayback machine.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20230628125533/https://probiorah.
| ..
| clumsysmurf wrote:
| There are a few of these kinds of products, I wonder how they
| compare
|
| https://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-
| supplements/item02120...
| Obscurity4340 wrote:
| No way?! Great find, dude. I wonder if anyone can comment
| about it specifically or if it might be worthwhile to start a
| thread soliciting users experience...
| lisper wrote:
| I've never tried it but I see cause for skepticism: the
| claim is that these beneficial bacteria will out-compete
| the harmful ones. But if that's true, why would it take 30
| days for them to get established? One shot of Listerine to
| kill what's there now, then one batch of the good critters
| to get them started, and, if the claims are true, you
| should be set for life, right? So something doesn't add up.
| darkclouds wrote:
| Zinc starves bacteria via a variety of means, and a high
| zinc intake will see high levels of zinc in the saliva
| and in the teeth, helping to keep bacterial levels down,
| but RDA's are highly conservative amounts for young
| healthy people, not old or ill people, which then makes
| some RDA's woefully inadequate.
|
| Very few products kill 100% of bacteria, even deionised
| water will still have less than 25 colony forming
| bacteria per litre in it, although by virtue of being
| deionised has less in it to help bacteria get
| established. Acidifying water will make it harder for
| pseudomonas to get established. But when scientists say
| they are searching for life on mars or an asteroid, they
| are referring to bacteria, mainly the bacillus aka rod
| shaped bacteria as it can survive in radiation 100,000
| times more than humans can survive in, and extreme cold
| like space, so global warming and melting ice at the
| poles presents new viral and bacterial risks.
|
| Diet can also reduce the body's own immune response, for
| example calcium disodium ethylene diamine tetra-acetate
| aka Calcium disodium EDTA found in a variety of products
| from makeup to food like Mayonnaise chelates zinc
| reducing zinc's ability to activate GPR39.
|
| Zinc's inability from deficiency or chemicals like the
| one mentioned above, from being able to activate GPR39,
| creates a myriad of problems in human health, including
| reducing saliva production. [1]
|
| There isnt anything wrong with using bacteria to out
| compete other bacteria, but adaptions occur.
|
| Phages are viruses that kill bacteria, something the
| Russians developed decades ago as the West when with
| antibiotics[2]. I would also consider Georgia as a
| medical destination for some conditions as they are
| superior to Western options. Some of their doctors do
| scoff at the Western doctors!
|
| You can find millions if not billions of phages in just
| 1ml of seawater [3]. The problem with phages is they take
| time to develop, so you could be dead before the
| bacterial strain is identified and a phage is developed,
| so antibiotics are the fastest immediate response, but
| the gold standard is antibiotics until the phages have
| been developed and then used as a part of a treatment
| program, but you'll only get this from very expensive
| private healthcare.
|
| Of course drinking seawater when one goes surfing is a
| bit of pot luck, or lucky dip with regards to consuming
| phages. It makes me wonder if Surfers Against Sewage know
| about phages. [4]
|
| So lots of different ways to tackle health problems, but
| medical experts cant always use them due to cost or
| simply lack of knowledge.
|
| [1] https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/22/8/3872
|
| [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6203130/
|
| [3] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210115-the-
| viruses-that....
|
| [4] https://www.sas.org.uk/
| rdedev wrote:
| It could be the case that these specific strain of good
| bacteria does not last long enough in the mouth for some
| reason. For example they could mutate or they might not
| have the capability to attach itself to the tooth surface
| for long enough.
|
| In their website they claim that within 30 days the good
| bacteria will outcompetes the bad one. I don't think you
| can stop taking the tablets after those 30 days
| completely to keep tits benefits. Those bacteria might
| die down over a course of a few months for various
| reasons.
| lisper wrote:
| What do you think "outcompete" _means_ in the context of
| evolutionary biology? _Something_ is going to set up shop
| in your mouth; it 's just too attractive an environment
| to be left fallow. Whatever that ends up being without
| intervention has _by definition_ outcompeted all the
| other contenders. So if the good bacteria don 't persist,
| then _by definition_ they have not "outcompeted" the
| competition.
| Obscurity4340 wrote:
| Doesn't your body have a reservoir of your microbiome
| throughout your body (like in the appendix or whatever)?
| Is it that far-out that some of the mouth stuff makes it
| there as well? Keep in mind, these bacteria have probably
| adapted and co-evolved over our development as a species,
| they must be fairly hardy and well-positioned
|
| Not qualified to argue with your very logical position
| here but I feel like it might be a longer-term transition
| and there might still be hold-outs if its only a one-and-
| done deal like you've described.
|
| Mea culpa tho, I definitely want to believe
| lisper wrote:
| > I definitely want to believe
|
| Me too. Nothing would make me happier than for someone to
| show me why I'm wrong here.
| Obscurity4340 wrote:
| It totally makes sense as a real-life conspiracy theory
| too, although I'm not super familiar with the ADA's
| exploits. Obviously, dentists have an enormous amount to
| lose if something like this ever escaped the laboratory,
| so to speak.
| lisper wrote:
| That's true, but if it really were the case that you
| could stop cavities and gum disease by popping a pill
| that was already on the market I don't see any way they
| could stop it. I also think that there are a few ADA
| members who actually care about people's dental health,
| and if they thought that there was a conspiracy to
| suppress such a thing, they would have said so.
|
| Like I said, nothing would make me happier than to be
| proven wrong about this. But right now my money is on the
| things-that-sound-too-good-to-be-true-usually-are theory.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| My naive thought, assuming it was effective, could outcompete
| acid spewing species, and you had dosed a handful of the
| population: why would it not have been able to spread through
| the population?
|
| Inoculated person X kisses two people, they go on to kiss two
| people, etc. Probably too simple a model, but I assume that
| kissing spreads all manner of microorganisms. How much do you
| need for the bacteria to take hold?
| tycho-newman wrote:
| Y'all will do anything to avoid some mouthwash.
| justinclift wrote:
| Well, it's pricing is kind of extraordinary.
|
| Like soft drinks, it's pretty much water + additives.
|
| Yet it makes brand name soft drinks look extremely cheap. ;)
| retSava wrote:
| You could call my child, or me, water + additives, yet she is
| priceless :).
| doubled112 wrote:
| Interesting. My children seem to be incredibly expensive.
| Obscurity4340 wrote:
| Is that really all it takes?
| klipt wrote:
| No, you need mechanical stimulation to break up biofilm, aka
| brushing.
|
| Most effective are those Oral B electric brushes that
| alternately rotate back and forth.
| lifty wrote:
| Is there a DIY version of this molecule?
| stereo wrote:
| Broccoli contains loads of it. You can also buy a bag for $19:
| https://www.amazon.com/PURE-ORIGINAL-INGREDIENTS-Diindolylme...
| amelius wrote:
| From:
|
| https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1049/diindo.
| ..
|
| > Diindolylmethane might act like estrogen in the body, but
| might also block estrogen effects.
|
| Right, so don't swallow it?
|
| > People commonly use diindolylmethane for breast cancer,
| prostate cancer, and many other conditions, but there is no
| good scientific evidence to support these uses.
|
| Or perhaps do swallow it?
| LinuxBender wrote:
| I take it in capsule form. It may be worth noting should
| anyone decide to take this to remember in advance how it
| will color the urine. The first time can be rather
| disturbing. It makes the urine kindof a splotchy red/bronze
| color if it has not been consumed in a while. I totally
| forgot about that the first time and though I was
| experiencing renal failure at first.
|
| I personally only take small amounts as it seems to up-
| regulate some repair pathways that can cause pain in some
| joints. No pain no gain but I'm just lazy enough to stick
| with broccoli sprouts for DIM and sulforaphane most of the
| time. I also don't measure serum estrogen and _guess_ as
| with most things.
| tourmalinetaco wrote:
| As is common in food sciences, "we have no idea what this
| actually does but SOME small studies have SOME big
| conclusions so here you go".
| Projectiboga wrote:
| This molecule is safe to eat, it helps the body fight the
| stomach ulcer bacteria. This cuts the slime that these
| bacteria use but aren't indiscriminate at killing
| microbes. You're immune system still does the actual work
| this just prevents evasive measures resistant bugs use.
| typingonmyphone wrote:
| Careful, if this molecule is basically an antibiotic (and at
| that, with poor effectiveness outside of a specific dose
| range), you could produce resistant bacteria or hard-to-predict
| side effects
| ravenstine wrote:
| This molecule, DIM, _supposedly_ breaks up the biofilms of S.
| mutans. But there are other substances known to break up
| biofilms, including xylitol. There 's been research around this,
| and it suggests that it can work but only under the condition
| that sucrose (and possibly other sugars) not be present.
|
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32932149/
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/342535934_Xylitol_a...
| klipt wrote:
| We already have a reliable way to break up biofilm, it's called
| brushing ... unfortunately you have to repeat the process twice
| daily.
| ironborn123 wrote:
| So any salad that contains chopped cabbage/broccoli and eaten
| daily should do the trick?
| xk_id wrote:
| there is something odd about their results. the compound was
| found not to be effective at either 0.1x or 10x of the effective
| dose. and they don't really explain why. this kind of dose-
| response curve makes it impractical to use.
| ta988 wrote:
| Unfortunately typical of compounds that have promiscuous
| activities. Lets wait for this to be replicated or applied
| before getting excited.
| kens wrote:
| Wow, you're right; the results are very strange. Concentrations
| of 50, 5, and .05 have no effect at all, while .5 almost
| completely eliminated biofilm. That kind of looks like
| experimental error.
|
| Figure 1 at https://www.mdpi.com/2079-6382/12/6/1017
| arcticfox wrote:
| Wowwwww. I desperately want this approach to hold up but who
| in their right mind puts that in a paper with only the caveat
| "interestingly, only one dose worked." when they tested three
| others with literally zero effect and there's no known
| mechanistic reason listed.
|
| I hope I'm missing something but that _looks_ like a
| ridiculous blunder perhaps made to get forward to publishing.
| smeej wrote:
| > A significant portion of the global population experiences
| persistent issues with dental plaque and cavities or will face
| them at some time.
|
| How significant a percentage are we talking about?
|
| Pretty much every dentist I've seen throughout my life has told
| me that I'm somehow immune to cavities. I don't know how they're
| figuring this out just from looking in my mouth (I'm not aware of
| having had any saliva tests or anything like that), but they've
| all agreed about it.
|
| I wonder if I'm in some less significant percentage of people who
| foster this bacteria (or something like it) on our own somehow?
| peteradio wrote:
| [flagged]
| ipnon wrote:
| In my opinion this is a bad comment because its only purpose
| is to denigrate the person you're replying to.
| tremon wrote:
| _Pretty much every dentist I 've seen throughout my life has
| told me that I'm somehow immune to cavities_
|
| My dentist told me there's two types of mouth flora: one that
| causes cavities, and one that causes calculus. My mouth seems
| to be of the latter.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| stop brushing and find out
| HWR_14 wrote:
| They can see the beginning stages of cavity development long
| before they need to be dealt with. I would take it as "my teeth
| are abnormally healthy"
| impish9208 wrote:
| 9 out of 10 dentists hate this molecule.
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