[HN Gopher] DJI Virtual Flight (iOS) has been broken for five mo...
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       DJI Virtual Flight (iOS) has been broken for five months
        
       Author : curiousexplorer
       Score  : 138 points
       Date   : 2023-09-09 14:38 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (forum.dji.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (forum.dji.com)
        
       | instagraham wrote:
       | DJI once bricked all Vision 2+ drones with a software update a
       | year or two after launch and offered _zero_ support because it
       | had newer models in the market.
        
         | hh3k0 wrote:
         | DJI may be the best of all the Chinese drone companies but it
         | is ultimately still a Chinese company.
        
           | wahnfrieden wrote:
           | This behavior isn't unique to Chinese companies
        
       | bowsamic wrote:
       | DJI have likely got many more, more important projects on the go.
       | They delivered it, stop complaining
        
       | lisardo wrote:
       | Apple did the breaking change from their side. I don't think DJI
       | is to blame.
        
         | threeseed wrote:
         | It is the responsibility of app developers to target the latest
         | SDK.
         | 
         | Apple has always made it clear and so DJI is absolutely to
         | blame.
        
         | wrs wrote:
         | This is just how iOS works. Sometimes you have to update your
         | app. If it takes you a month, maybe you get a pass. If it's
         | been 162 days and you don't even have a definite answer for
         | whether you're ever going to fix it, then you just shouldn't be
         | making apps.
        
           | DarkmSparks wrote:
           | This is the best advert for not buying an IOS device I've
           | heard in a while....
           | 
           | never had any such problem on android, I still have working
           | apps that target android 6...
        
             | Lammy wrote:
             | Starting in Android 14 you will have to use ADB to install
             | any APK targeting lower than API Level 23 (Android 6):
             | https://developer.android.com/about/versions/14/behavior-
             | cha...
             | 
             | Obviously expect that boundary to ratchet up with time,
             | plus the single point of failure if they ever decide to
             | remove `--bypass-low-target-sdk-block` from the dev tools.
        
               | DarkmSparks wrote:
               | android 6 runs on phones dating back to 2013.
               | 
               | Thats 10 years ago, and only 5 years after the very first
               | iPhone (2007)
               | 
               | 6 was a milestone, because it was the first to actually
               | feature restricted app access to
               | contacts/microphone/camera.
               | 
               | facebook, twitter, linkedin and a load of others
               | (especially facebook games) got where they are from
               | stealing everyones contacts via that method and then
               | spamming them with adverts. TF those days are behind us.
        
               | Lammy wrote:
               | Justify your e-waste any way you want. I still use my old
               | Kitkat phone offline for MP3+OBD in my car, and it still
               | gets brand-new versions of the apps I like:
               | https://krosbits.in/musicolet/
        
             | lm411 wrote:
             | Google is worse, in my opinion.
             | 
             | "Currently, existing apps (across mobile, Android Auto,
             | Android TV) must target API level 31 or above by August 31,
             | 2023 (target API 30 or up API level 33 for Wear OS).
             | Otherwise, they will stop being discoverable to all Google
             | Play users whose devices run Android OS versions newer than
             | your app's target API level"
             | 
             | https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-
             | developer/answ...
             | 
             | It is now a yearly requirement to target the latest API
             | version.
             | 
             | You might have "working apps that target Android 6" but no
             | one with a phone built after 2017 can find them. I often
             | run into incompatibilities between API versions.
        
               | DarkmSparks wrote:
               | Thats only new listings. And while old ones dont get
               | listed for new installs.
               | 
               | They dont stop working if you installed them before the
               | minimum requirements for new apps came into force, and
               | you can still install them on new phones from the list of
               | applications attached to your account.
        
               | lm411 wrote:
               | Right.
               | 
               | But there have been changes in the Android API that have
               | been non-backwards compatible and if your app is using
               | those API's, they will break when run on newer versions.
               | Same as for iOS.
               | 
               | Many simple apps targeting very old versions of their
               | respective API/SDK will still work on both platforms.
               | 
               | Ultimately, keeping an app active and functional does
               | require maintenance.
        
               | lelanthran wrote:
               | > Otherwise, they will stop being discoverable to all
               | Google Play users
               | 
               | Sounds like they still work though. GP's Android 6
               | application won't stop working, would it?
        
         | natch wrote:
         | Breaking changes are part of the deal. It's no secret that iOS
         | has a new major version every year. If there's blame here, it's
         | on DJI.
         | 
         | And usually the breaking changes only come after many years of
         | advance notification from Apple, unless it's an urgent change
         | to address for example abusive developers doing egregious
         | infringement of privacy.
         | 
         | Those developers tend to be hit harder. Maybe that's the case
         | here.
        
       | mig39 wrote:
       | So something's changed about DJI's API as well.
       | 
       | In the past, you could use 3rd-party apps that extended features,
       | and offered new ones. One popular app is Litchi
       | https://flylitchi.com
       | 
       | However, DJI seems to have stopped updating their iOS API, so
       | 3rd-party iOS apps won't work with any newer drones and Android
       | stuff seems to be available only by side-loading.
       | 
       | Perhaps there's something in the newer APIs that neither Apple or
       | Google like? Sending back too much data to DJI?
        
         | ballenf wrote:
         | It may not be there choice entirely with all the new FAA flight
         | tracking regulations that recently came into force.
        
         | voakbasda wrote:
         | This seems to be assured. Another comment mentions the
         | collection of the phone's IMEI.
         | 
         | I'd love to see a proper security analysis of their packages,
         | because I would be willing to bet cash money that every app
         | they offer does multiple nefarious things to collect your
         | personal and flight data.
         | 
         | Sadly, such revelations still would probably not be enough to
         | damage their reputation and sales in a meaningful way.
        
           | entropie wrote:
           | > to collect your personal and flight data.
           | 
           | Its no secret they save flight data (like everything you
           | input, temperature, gps points...) in their cloud.
           | 
           | I think there are workarounds for this, a friend of mine
           | never paired his drone with a smartphone connected to any
           | network. Iam pretty sure this will not work for a long time.
           | 
           | Its very daunting if you ask me, the amount of data they
           | gather. Not a small part of drones used in active wars, like
           | ukraine right now, is by DJI. This is alot of power in the
           | hands of a few.
        
       | phero_cnstrcts wrote:
       | Yet a DJI done just managed to fly off my wishlist.
        
       | bri3d wrote:
       | Most hardware companies operate this way: their devices are on
       | fixed release schedules, and once they're done, they're "done."
       | Virtual Flight was part of the release cycle for some drone or
       | another (I think the FPV potato, if I recall correctly?) and now
       | that it's done, there's nobody allocated to or tasked with fixing
       | it.
       | 
       | So, software is treated the same way. Engineers copy and paste
       | whatever stuck-together yarn ball of code off Gitee they need to
       | produce an artifact which passes QA, then ship it.
       | 
       | The problem comes in when there's software that needs to live for
       | a long time in the real world - Virtual Flight, for example, was
       | broken by some Apple update or another, and their Fly app has to
       | support a broad range of drones so it creaks under the weight of
       | everything being pasted together.
       | 
       | IMO, almost all "hardware" companies trying to make software are
       | the same way. From industrial controls to mobile phone vendors.
       | If anything, DJI have gotten better in recent years about after-
       | sales updates, fixes, and support than they used to be.
        
         | cm2187 wrote:
         | There is also the fact that this particular software is running
         | on a platform that seems to wear breaking changes and backward
         | incompatibility as a badge of honour.
        
           | qorrect wrote:
           | I am just imagining this, or did it feel like 10-15 years ago
           | breaking changes were a big deal, and companies went out of
           | their way to provide an upgrade path. Now my flutter app from
           | 3 months ago won't even compile.
        
             | wrs wrote:
             | The major platform companies have different historical
             | attitudes that haven't changed much.
             | 
             | Microsoft: We told you what not to do, and you did it
             | anyway, so we'll put code in our OS specifically to keep
             | your app running.
             | 
             | Apple: We didn't tell you that was OK to do, and you did
             | it, and our latest cool stuff broke your app. Over to you.
             | Also, we didn't mention this earlier, but no more 32-bit
             | apps next year, sorry.
             | 
             | Android: We try to keep your app running, for a while, but
             | TBH a lot of the platform comes from manufacturers who only
             | care for about 18 months. Let's all just try to survive.
        
               | cm2187 wrote:
               | not just 32bit. No more powerpc (and soon x86), no more
               | system 7/8/9 apps, etc. It's now a long tradition.
        
               | mrandish wrote:
               | A depressingly accurate summary...
        
         | sswr wrote:
         | Do you think this is related to the fact that they only sell
         | hardware (i.e., no subscription costs for the software)?
         | 
         | Shouldn't they already factor in the cost of app support for
         | the next X years when selling the product?
         | 
         | I assume the same principle applies when you purchase an
         | iPhone. Though in this case, DJI may not see Virtual Flight as
         | core software for their product.
        
           | bri3d wrote:
           | Yes, 100%. In places where they get software residuals
           | (agriculture and enterprise, via FlightHub and other
           | services), development is constant because a team stays
           | assigned to it.
           | 
           | I do think that in recent years DJI have gotten way better at
           | budgeting for after-sales support on mainline products. The
           | Mavic 3 series have gotten consistent and meaningful updates
           | for quite some time now. This Virtual Flight app was always
           | kind of a joke and I'm not really surprised it's abandoned.
        
           | jon-wood wrote:
           | I suspect some of this is why more recent DJI drones have an
           | OS and screen on the controller, because that way they have a
           | single set of hardware to target, and even if some future
           | Android release breaks backwards compatibility they can
           | simply choose not to update to it and the controller will
           | still work.
        
           | bee_rider wrote:
           | I think hardware companies just view programmers as, like, EE
           | that aren't even trustworthy enough to put in charge of
           | keeping the magic smoke in the chips.
        
           | dronodeath wrote:
           | > Shouldn't they already factor in the cost of app support
           | for the next X years when selling the product?
           | 
           | Depends what you mean by "should". If you mean that they
           | should because it would be the right thing to do, sure. If
           | you mean it would be competitively advantageous, well I
           | rather doubt it. Consumers have almost uniformly demonstrated
           | that price trumps all.
        
             | TeMPOraL wrote:
             | Price and marketing. For better or worse[0], the consumers
             | are putting trust into marketoids and their emotionally
             | manipulative messaging, that focuses on imaginary nirvana-
             | like experience, and completely omits how the experience is
             | likely to look like a few months after purchase.
             | 
             | --
             | 
             | [0] - Sadly, it's likely for better. The world after most
             | people get an accurate feel for how much they can trust
             | companies will be a very bad place to live in.
        
         | tetris11 wrote:
         | Yep. Take a look at Parrot's support for the Disco and Bebop
         | drones. As of a few months ago, the FreeFlightPro app[1] no
         | longer connects to Parrot servers so that you can login to your
         | account on their servers, and only then connect to the drone a
         | few feet away from you.
         | 
         | All this obsolence, just so that they can sell you the new
         | Anafi drones (which will be similarly obsolesced).
         | 
         | Thank god for the Ardupilot community[2tT] stepping in to open
         | up their drones for at least some semblance of autonomy, so
         | that people can once again control the devices that they've
         | purchased...
         | 
         | 1:
         | https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.parrot.fre...
         | 
         | 2: https://discuss.ardupilot.org/t/controlling-parrot-drones-
         | us...
         | 
         | t: admittedly some ex-Parrot developers helped port some stuff
         | over.
         | 
         | T: Andrew Tridgell (of "reason for chaging VC in Linux from
         | BitKeeper to Git", and other true-coder fame) is pretty active
         | here. It's a very talented community.
        
           | aftbit wrote:
           | Thanks for the post about this. I have a Parrot Disco that I
           | was planning to take for its first flight in about two years
           | next weekend. Honestly these companies need to be sued over
           | this behavior. Shutting down the servers without updating the
           | app to work without needing login essentially bricks a
           | product that I paid for.
        
             | tetris11 wrote:
             | For Disco you're in luck, there are some really decent
             | ardupilot-based projects out there[1]. Plus, unlike the
             | Bebop camera which is inaccessible via the shell (you can
             | only use the Parrot SDK), the Disco camera can be commanded
             | to stream/record with a few simple commands, and even bound
             | to controller inputs.
             | 
             | A caveat with the controller: it needs to have custom
             | firmware[2] to get it communicating with ardupilot, and to
             | get the firmware onto the controller you need telnet/adb
             | into it via SkyController-usb-ethernet-usb-Laptop
             | adaptor(s) setup.
             | 
             | For a ground control system (GCS), there's three to choose
             | from: Mission Planner, APM Planner, and QGroundControl[3]
             | (ignore the rest, use this one).
             | 
             | For configuring the drone, mission planner is pretty
             | good... but you can also just use MavProxy[4] which is a
             | fantastic commandline program that all the GCSes use in
             | some way, and can even be installed in Termux/Android.
             | 
             | 1: https://github.com/uavpal/disco4g/
             | 
             | 2: https://github.com/ArduPilot/dema-rc/
             | 
             | 3: https://github.com/mavlink/qgroundcontrol
             | 
             | 4: https://github.com/ArduPilot/MAVProxy
        
         | squirrel6 wrote:
         | I like this use of "artifact"
        
         | xattt wrote:
         | K'nex had a roller coaster kit that came with Google Cardboard-
         | style glasses and an app. The app was released when iOS 13 was
         | current. iOS 14 broke whatever orientation alignment API the VR
         | app used.
         | 
         | The app reviews are flooded with people complaining it's
         | broken. I absolutely have no hope it will ever get fixed.
        
         | pacifika wrote:
         | Ok you're saying DJI doesn't understand that modern software is
         | build on top of a moving base whose interface changes over
         | time. It's called lifecycle support
        
           | howinteresting wrote:
           | Sounds like the world in which the platform keeps moving and
           | breaking APIs is a pretty bad world!
        
           | clnq wrote:
           | [flagged]
        
             | Shaanie wrote:
             | >it might be illegal to support an existing product when
             | more profit can be extracted from building a new one.
             | 
             | Lol no, that's just a reddit opinion. Business judgment
             | rule means businesses have a huge leeway on how to do
             | business, outside of fraud or intentionally trying to
             | cripple the company.
        
               | bobbob1921 wrote:
               | Unrelated to drones (but is a hardware/software
               | manufacturer)- I would like to call out Axis (as an Axis
               | network cameras) as one of the rare positive lights in
               | this mess. They clearly state how long their products
               | will be software supported, and they stick to that
               | minimum and frequently go well beyond that minimum.
               | 
               | Axis has products that are over 10 years old that still
               | receive frequent security only firmware updates. If they
               | can do it across hundreds of different hardware products,
               | then these companies can too. (in fact, Axis was doing it
               | well before this became a main stream issue)
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | > _If they can do it across hundreds of different
               | hardware products, then these companies can too._
               | 
               | It's pretty clear the issue isn't "we can't", but rather
               | "we can, but why would we want that".
        
           | lazide wrote:
           | I think they're saying every hardware company is this way,
           | with rare exceptions.
        
         | saidinesh5 wrote:
         | A lot of hardware companies also just tend to just outsource a
         | lot of software development to other third parties. Once the
         | software is delivered, sometimes these third parties just move
         | on/go under and the bugs in the software never get fixed.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | numbsafari wrote:
         | This is why hardware manufacturers should be required to place
         | schematics and software source code for all components into
         | escrow, and it becomes public when they discontinue meaningful
         | support and or shipping a product.
        
           | Eisenstein wrote:
           | The problem is that the software is most likely not composed
           | by them in any meaningful way. If you take apart any
           | proprietary firmware and controlling application you are
           | almost certain to find boilerplate code provided by the
           | chipset vendors (protected by NDA) glued together with other
           | code from other vendors with a GPL violating Linux backend.
           | 
           | Recent example: I patched in to my 3D printer's mainboard
           | using a TTL to USB and opened up putty and guess what shows
           | on the console?
           | 
           | > Linux version 3.4.39+ (zhanglei@ubuntu Revision:543)
           | 
           | * https://pastebin.com/CPB7RBdK
        
             | dvdkon wrote:
             | That's less of a problem for a hypothetical law requiring
             | either longer-term maintenance or enabling users to perform
             | that maintenance themselves. Manufacturers would just have
             | to make adequate contractual arrangements.
        
           | Aurornis wrote:
           | That would be a great way to guarantee that nobody builds
           | hardware in your country.
           | 
           | It would also do absolutely nothing in this situation where
           | the product already comes from a foreign country.
        
             | bigtunacan wrote:
             | Maybe if it's a tiny country that makes up virtually no
             | market share. If it's a major market like the USA companies
             | will find a way to comply with the laws to continue
             | marketing their products.
        
           | prox wrote:
           | Maybe a software-esque "right to repair"
        
             | Valodim wrote:
             | Sounds pretty close to what the GPLv3 does, doesn't it?
        
               | theK wrote:
               | Can you elaborate? AFAIK the GPL just naively enforces
               | that something needs to be and remain open source. How
               | can it turn closed source into open source?
        
         | ohyes wrote:
         | This is the most accurate description of dealing with a
         | hardware manufacturer I've ever read. I've never experienced
         | getting for example, drivers from a hardware company where it
         | wasn't exactly as you described.
        
       | Tepix wrote:
       | I've had a very good experience with DJI recently. On my DJI Mini
       | 2 the IMU was malfunctioning and they repaired it for free
       | (including shipping both ways), despite it being out of warranty.
       | 
       | I was able to buy DJI care after the repair which came in handy
       | for my upcoming high risk flights ;-)
        
       | bambax wrote:
       | > _problem started when apple upgraded iOS to 16.4+ version
       | (27.3.2023 exactly 162 days ago)_
       | 
       | Every single comment blames DJI, but shouldn't it be Apple's
       | responsibility to not break existing apps with iOS "upgrades"?
       | 
       | Apple is free to decide they don't care one bit about retro
       | compatibility, but it's just weird we would simply accept that
       | and think of updates like a kind of act of God that just happens.
        
         | crazygringo wrote:
         | On the one hand, there are _always_ going to be changes with
         | upgrades that break things, even if not intended -- especially
         | when apps inadvertently rely on undocumented API behavior.
         | 
         | But on the other hand, that's a well-known difference between
         | Apple and Microsoft philosophies. Microsoft bends over
         | backwards to support old software (e.g. hard-coding old
         | buggy/undefined behavior for specific legacy apps), while Apple
         | fully expects app developers to maintain their software and
         | upgrade it as necessary with each new iOS release, using new
         | versions of libraries etc.
         | 
         | I don't think either is "correct", they're just different
         | philosophies. The Microsoft way leads to incredibly complicated
         | OS behavior that must be hell on the Windows devs. But if you
         | develop an iOS app, you should know this going into it, that
         | you'll need to budget for a certain level of occasional
         | maintenance or risk that the app breaks.
        
           | TeMPOraL wrote:
           | The that cultural difference causes some pretty important
           | secondary differences too - for example, Microsoft's way
           | enables software to be a product - written once, working
           | approximately forever; Apple's way pretty much forces a
           | subscription model.
        
           | howinteresting wrote:
           | The Microsoft way is absolutely better than the Apple way.
           | Platform holders, Apple in particular, reap enormous profits.
           | They have at least some basic responsibility here. It's hard?
           | Tough shit, software is hard. Start putting in the work for
           | your 400k TC.
           | 
           | This is also why Apple will never be a long-term gaming
           | platform for anything other than gacha pull and otherwise
           | exploitative games. I can still play the original Dark Souls
           | with DSFix on modern Windows (or Linux via Proton for that
           | matter). The game is timeless and should never be lost to
           | lazy platform holders.
        
             | s3p wrote:
             | Microsoft is not shipping mobile phone software! I fault
             | them for breaking older apps, yes, but this is not always
             | the case. I have an app that is 7 years old and it hasn't
             | been updated for any phone since the iphone 7. I see the
             | black bars when I open it. It's a drink making app that
             | since got taken off the app store, but I'll never delete it
             | because it was a one time purchase and got me access to the
             | easiest explanations for making drinks I have ever seen in
             | my entire life. And _every_ drink is there. Apple has
             | never, I repeat *never*, broken it for me. It still opens.
             | 
             | Your mileage may vary. I think backwards compatibility is
             | important, but we can't expect Apple to do a quality test
             | on every last app on the app store for hours and hours
             | making sure it opens on every phone on every software
             | version.
        
             | crazygringo wrote:
             | Except that it's easy to make the exact opposite argument:
             | that making apps is so tremendously easy and cheap compared
             | to making hardware, or even writing and physically
             | distributing software back in the 1980's and 1990's. It's
             | never been so easy for a handful of developers to to make
             | millions via app stores and cloud computing. So app makers
             | have at least some basic responsibility here. It's hard?
             | Tough shit, software is hard. Start putting in the minimal
             | work to keep your apps up to date.
             | 
             | Apps are more interoperable than every before so the idea
             | of something you write once and never touch again stops
             | making any sense. Encryption standards progress, privacy
             | entitlements become more granular, image formats get added,
             | retina compatibility becomes expected, dark mode becomes
             | expected, etc. etc. etc.
        
         | the__alchemist wrote:
         | Same thought. I don't blame DJI for not playing this fast
         | moving ballgame; stability matters. I suspect there are
         | cultural issues at play between firmware and phone devs. I'd
         | like to see conventional wisdom on regular updates being
         | critical, ostensibly for security, going away.
        
           | wahnfrieden wrote:
           | Exec orders aren't the same as culture issues among workers
        
         | kmlx wrote:
         | > but shouldn't it be Apple's responsibility to not break
         | existing apps with iOS "upgrades"?
         | 
         | according to the comments in the thread it doesn't work even on
         | ios 15.7?
        
         | Brosper wrote:
         | We don't know what is exact issue. I wouldn't jude it so
         | quickly.
        
         | comboy wrote:
         | It depends on what exactly happened. Sometimes documentation
         | will say stuff like "order of execution of these methods can be
         | random" which if ignored may lead to a bug after a perfectly
         | compatible upgrade.
        
         | Oras wrote:
         | You're not wrong, however it is still making DJI support
         | questionable.
        
         | galad87 wrote:
         | If the app breaks every minor iOS update I would start
         | wondering on what exactly are DJI coding practices.
        
         | basisword wrote:
         | Apps rarely break on dot releases of iOS. If you're using
         | private API's though when you're explicitly told not to, shit
         | happens. I'd bet my house on this being a DJI issue as opposed
         | to Apple breaking a public API in a dot release.
        
       | latchkey wrote:
       | I wonder if this was intentional, given the Ukraine war. It would
       | affect people's ability to train.
        
       | rlex wrote:
       | their simulator for PC has been broken and not updated for quite
       | some time too. It doesn't work with new controllers (anything
       | from mavic 2 and up i think)
        
       | mosfets wrote:
       | Try the free FPVSIM drone simulator[1], you can train there!
       | 
       | [1] https://store.epicgames.com/p/fpvsim-2a20cb
        
       | voakbasda wrote:
       | This is why I will only buy a drone that can be supported fully
       | by an Open Source software stack. Yes, that will require far more
       | work to set up and maintain, but it literally can last as long as
       | I need it, without future restrictions, for as long as the
       | hardware shall live.
       | 
       | Proprietary hardware _will always_ be abandon by its
       | manufacturers eventually. Always!! This is not the first drone to
       | be dust-binned by software obsolescence. It will not be the last.
       | What will it take for people to realize this fundamental truth?
        
         | mcculley wrote:
         | Can you recommend a good drone with an open source stack? I
         | would very much like to buy one but it is unclear which are
         | comparable or better than something I would buy from DJI.
        
           | voakbasda wrote:
           | The PX4 stack would be where I would start if I were in the
           | market to buy today. They have a list of compatible hardware
           | and drones, including some relatively off-the-shelf drones.
           | The list of drones provides a lot of detail about the various
           | levels of support and functionality available.
        
             | mcculley wrote:
             | I just went to the PX4 website and found a lot of broken
             | links. Do you have any experience with fully open source
             | drones that you can recommend?
        
               | saidinesh5 wrote:
               | I think they meant this page:
               | https://px4.io/ecosystem/commercial-systems/
               | 
               | But it depends on your budget/use case really (just to
               | fly around with a camera like payload, drone racing,
               | autonomous missions using gps). A lot of the drones out
               | there use a lot of open source software for one thing or
               | another.
               | 
               | Ardupilot, PX4, Betaflight, iNav etc.. are open source
               | drone flight control software which run on drone flight
               | controllers. flight controller = a little microcontroller
               | + gyro/accelerometer + connections to some peripherals
               | like radio receivers , GPS, sensors like sonar etc.
               | 
               | Blheli_S, AM32 etc.. are Open Source ESC firmware. ESC =
               | Electronic Speed Controller. The component that is
               | responsible to spin the motors as the flight controller
               | wants it to.
               | 
               | Sik Radio, ExpressLRS, mLRS etc.. are Open Source RC
               | control link software that let you send control messages
               | from your ground station to your drone.
               | 
               | As for Video Transmission, you can use anything from
               | OpenHD/wifibroadcast(doesn't use Wifi. just Wifi hardware
               | in monitor mode.) to webrtc over 4g to transmit video
               | from quad to your ground station. And optionally record
               | it on the drone side too.
               | 
               | Mix and match these open source components to build your
               | own drone as per your needs.
               | 
               | I mostly fly racing drones and every single component on
               | my quads is open source to one extent or another.
        
               | mcculley wrote:
               | That's the page I went to that led me to some 404s
               | 
               | I appreciate all of the info you have supplied.
               | 
               | I would very much like to buy a complete multicopter to
               | which I can add payloads and program routes/waypoints and
               | otherwise customize. Do you or anyone else reading this
               | have good experience with any vendors of open source
               | drones?
        
       | dreday wrote:
       | Please don't give Tony DJI a hard time. He's just a support
       | person who's taking the brunt for a large corporation's
       | priority's decisions.
        
       | can16358p wrote:
       | What do you expect from a company whose app requires you to re-
       | login every other week to be able to fly your drone?
       | 
       | But if you ask them that doesn't exist, once you login you never
       | need to login again... except, well, you do.
       | 
       | Their hardware is excellent. I wish their software was at least
       | remotely on par with that.
        
         | hunter2_ wrote:
         | Might you be using an unusual configuration, like having
         | changed an OS privacy setting where the weaker default is
         | relied on by the app for a persistent session, or is this bug a
         | consensus among all users?
        
       | oh_sigh wrote:
       | DJI is the only major company that I've experienced demands you
       | install an APK on your android instead of providing something via
       | the app store. Something is completely broken with their software
       | development, though their hardware seems quite nice.
        
         | outside1234 wrote:
         | Or there is something strange in that APK from China
        
           | doublerabbit wrote:
           | I own a HEXA robot, I was a kick starter and paid a price for
           | it.
           | 
           | When I first purchased the robot it never required phone GPS.
           | And that now if you disable it at any point it disconnects
           | you from the robot. It sits gaining dust because I wish not
           | to use an IOS app with GPS enabled for no reason.
           | 
           | Questioning support to why this is required they said "people
           | are happy with GPS on" and that was that.
           | 
           | I look at it sadly because it runs Linux, has full root
           | access and so much potential. But, I just don't like the fact
           | that could be potentially tracking GPS coords back to HQ.
        
             | heliodor wrote:
             | Frustrating stuff!
             | 
             | The one good experience I've had with customer support for
             | a hardware+software company was for the Eufy cameras by
             | Anker.
             | 
             | Opening the app would stop the audio stream that was
             | playing. No reason to do that while showing me a list of
             | cameras. The audio stream should have been interrupted only
             | once one selects a camera to view and listen to.
             | 
             | I wrote customer support and after some explanation and
             | friction, they understood and a fix was released about two
             | months later.
        
               | tbyehl wrote:
               | Eufy, the company who'd send your footage to their cloud
               | unencrypted even if you didn't have cloud storage
               | enabled?
               | 
               | https://gizmodo.com/eufy-local-security-camera-cloud-
               | unencry...
        
               | TeMPOraL wrote:
               | On that note, does there exist a company I could buy
               | cameras to install at home, that 1) _doesn 't_ force me
               | to go through some cloud, and 2) sells products to
               | European market? I was excited about buying some Amcrest
               | cameras, only to then discover it fails point 2) - I
               | can't just get them without complex and expensive
               | sourcing process, and should I do it anyway, jumping over
               | the voltage difference between US and EU grids.
               | 
               | (I mean, I probably _could_ make Amcrest stuff work if I
               | tried hard enough, but I am at the age where spare time
               | is precious, so I was looking for something that I could
               | order and install without hassle or tinkering with mains
               | electricity.)
        
               | selectodude wrote:
               | Ubiquiti cameras check all three of those boxes.
        
             | xxpor wrote:
             | I assume HEXA isn't a drone then? There's legit (well, at
             | least regulations) reasons why they'd need GPS for that.
             | But if it's ground based that's silly.
        
               | doublerabbit wrote:
               | Hexa is advertised as a multi-functional all-terrain
               | robot. No drone capacities.
               | 
               | My educated guess is that the company Vincross sold their
               | tech to the Chinese Military back in 2017 and China is
               | being China.
               | 
               | It is a very nifty robot, the company still exists but
               | feels as an empty shell.
        
             | meatmanek wrote:
             | Is the connection to the robot using Bluetooth Low Energy?
             | I believe certain BLE-related APIs are gated behind the
             | permission setting because scanning for BLE beacons can
             | give the app very precise location.
             | 
             | Would be nice if users could give BLE permissions but _not_
             | GPS or wifi-based location permission to an app.
        
               | izacus wrote:
               | > Would be nice if users could give BLE permissions but
               | _not_ GPS or wifi-based location permission to an app.
               | 
               | Not sure about iOS, but Android supports that for several
               | years now (to the point where a given app only gets BLE
               | access to one device it cares about which prevents data
               | leakage).
        
               | doublerabbit wrote:
               | Unfortunately not. the connection is via WiFi, you
               | connect to it's WiFi network.
        
             | Eisenstein wrote:
             | If you have full root access can't you fake the GPS toggle?
        
               | doublerabbit wrote:
               | I've looked in to that. The GPS toggle is app-bound where
               | that if the app detects it's off, it kills the
               | connection.
        
         | sschueller wrote:
         | That maybe due to US sanctions against DJI and they can't put
         | apps in the play store. [1]
         | 
         | [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59703521
        
           | coder543 wrote:
           | Nope. They have apps on the iOS App Store just fine. DJI Fly
           | for iOS was last updated 4 days ago.
        
             | sschueller wrote:
             | Apple may have paperwork DJI can fill out while Google may
             | not. Being compliant can be a huge ordeal and it is quite
             | possible Google does not offer what is required.
             | 
             | Alternatively it's probably a lot cheaper to offer an apk
             | while for Apple there is no other option than the app store
             | requiring all kinds of paperwork and lawyer fees.
        
           | avel wrote:
           | DJI used to have the "Mimo" app in the play store. It was
           | rated very low, 2.3 stars. The app required users to allow
           | the permission to read the phone's IMEI. If you denied that
           | permission, the app closed. Myself, and I'm sure plenty of
           | others, have reported this to the play store as something
           | against the play store policies. Perhaps Google gave in to
           | the complaints eventually and told DJI, enough is enough with
           | your crap, who knows... And that made DJI say, "enough is
           | enough with _you_, we're big enough to distribute these
           | outside the play store and keep our invasive tracking and
           | permissions".
           | 
           | Page visible only if you have installed the app in the past:
           | https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=dji.mimo
        
             | bmurphy1976 wrote:
             | The drone apps work for me although installing the APKs is
             | annoying and I moved on to litchi anyway. At least my very
             | old spark still works.
             | 
             | The mimo app on the other hand is straight up garbage. The
             | thing never works right if it even connects to the device
             | at all. I regret buying that thing (it's the osmo mobile
             | version 2 or 3). It's so bad I don't think I will ever buy
             | a new dji device.
             | 
             | I love flying my spark but the battery life is trash and my
             | Air 2 isn't fun to fly (it's more of a utility van than a
             | fun little sports car). I'd love to get a replacement for
             | my spark. It's probably better to just build my own at this
             | point.
        
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