[HN Gopher] Titanium spikes kill superbugs drug-free by ripping ...
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Titanium spikes kill superbugs drug-free by ripping them apart
Author : LordAtlas
Score : 66 points
Date : 2023-09-04 13:29 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (newatlas.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (newatlas.com)
| LinuxBender wrote:
| [flagged]
| refulgentis wrote:
| #1 ?
|
| #2 It's a surgical implant, why would they remove it?
| oniony wrote:
| Surely any surface with this feature would get covered in a layer
| of grime and become ineffective within days.
| simbolit wrote:
| "Grime" is only a thing in our medium-scale world. In the
| micro-world, there is no grime. Most (tiny tiny) things people
| consider to be grime are far too big to even come into
| consideration here.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Sure, but wouldn't those larger particles cover the spikes,
| by laying on top of them? So if the whole surface is covered
| in grime, wouldn't the grime become the outer layer, so
| negating the benefits of whatever happens to be under them?
| Sure, whatever bacteria gets to reach the spikes would be
| dead, but I'd expect "enough" bacteria to be able to stay on
| top of the grime.
| simbolit wrote:
| I am really not an expert in the micro-world, but from the
| times I have worked with microscopy, i know a lot of
| materials (and surely such a heterogenous material as
| "grime") have more holes than swiss cheese. So, yes, of
| course, some particles can cover some spikes, but "covered
| in a layer of grime" (which implies, well, coverage)
| doesn't seem likely to me.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I seem to remember some "science" program on TV a while
| ago talking about how the lotus leaf had some specific
| texture on which liquids wouldn't adhere. Would you think
| this is similar, in that whatever "grime" would fall on
| the spiked surface wouldn't adhere and just fall off?
| simbolit wrote:
| Is possible, but is not what I mean. I mean anything
| large (on this scale, for us it's still tiny) will only
| ever cover a few of these spikes.
|
| bad analogy: Take a beach ball, and put it on a chess
| board. It will only cover very few squares, because
| "covering" (in the sense we use it here) needs surface
| contact.
|
| Again, I am not an expert on the micro-level, this is
| just extrapolation from the little bits I do know.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| >> "It's like stretching a latex glove," said Elena Ivanova,
| corresponding author of the study. "As it slowly stretches, the
| weakest point in the latex will become thinner and eventually
| tear."
|
| Someone really has to make a collection of the truly unexpected
| similes that scientists often use to try and communicate their
| work in terms "a non-specialist would understand". "Like
| stretching a latex glove"?
|
| Perhaps there should be an award for the most far-fetched science
| popularising metaphor.
|
| ...latex glove...
| b800h wrote:
| What else do they rip apart?
| [deleted]
| exabrial wrote:
| Seems like there might be an analog here to battery technology...
| we're trying to develop anode/cathodes with higher surface areas
| via nanostructures.
| Pxtl wrote:
| Relevant xkcd:
|
| https://xkcd.com/1217/
| giarc wrote:
| I kind of work in this field and this isn't necessarily a new
| idea (micro structures killing bacteria). I remember being
| pitched on a tech called Sharklet that was proposed for hospital
| curtains. This was likely 10-13 years ago and it was a "nano-
| structure" killing mechanism.
| PoignardAzur wrote:
| Yeah, I definitely remember hearing about a similar concept for
| a microbe-killing surface about 15 years ago.
| noodlesUK wrote:
| I'm no expert in this field, so my question might be completely
| nonsensical.
|
| If this surface treatment is physically destructive to bacteria,
| is it also damaging to the human cells it is trying to sit next
| to after implantation?
| fit2rule wrote:
| [dead]
| simbolit wrote:
| I am wondering the same. The spikes on the dragonfly wings are
| on the outside, this is (at least in his article) promoted as
| being used for implants.
|
| One of the main qualities of implant materials is low bio-
| reactivity. I don't know if this fits the proper definition,
| but at least loosely speaking, tearing cells apart sounds like
| quite a bit of bio-reactivity.
|
| I am especially wondering because implants are always
| encapsulated by fibrous tissue (similar to scars), in order to
| protect the body from the "foreign object".
| simbolit wrote:
| tokai above says human cells are orders of magnitude larger
| than the cell in question. So that might be the answer.
| helpfulContrib wrote:
| This material would be most usefully applied in a hospital
| environment, where extremophiles are capable of adapting to the
| hostility they normally encounter, and is rather a leap beyond
| the existing strategies for containment.
|
| I don't think it has direct application to the human biome;
| more as a protective measure to stop the superbugs.
| tokai wrote:
| All types of human cells are much larger than Candida, up to
| several orders of magnitude. If the effect that destroys the
| cell is indeed some kind of stretching, it would make sense if
| the titanium surface doesn't have an effect on humans cells.
| formvoltron wrote:
| unless they tear through the walls of our cells.
|
| nanoplastics have been found inside human cells.
|
| this stuff is pretty scary to be creating. Stick to
| biochemistry for dealing with biology.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Human (and other animal) cells do not have cell walls.
| etrautmann wrote:
| What?
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| Animal cells do not have cell walls, but rather flexible
| cell membranes.
|
| Other living creatures generally do have rigid cell walls
| (sometimes with a flexible membrane inside the wall, I
| believe).
|
| https://www.khanacademy.org/science/high-school-
| biology/hs-c...
|
| "Animal cells simply have a cell membrane, but no cell
| wall."
|
| A web search will turn up many other citations for this.
| kurthr wrote:
| I think the point is that they don't have "cell walls",
| animal cells have "cell membranes". I'm not sure it's
| that relevant here since cell size seems more important
| to tolerating the spikes, but hopefully this helps
| explain the comment. I'd really only considered plants as
| having "cell walls" prior to this.
| chasil wrote:
| The article explains that dragonfly wings have naturally
| developed this kind of destructive surface for killing
| various types of bacteria.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| I'm not an expert, either, but I believe that animal cells are
| different from most other living things (plants, fungi and
| fungus-like/bacteria and bacteria-like organisms) in that they
| do _not_ have cell walls, just a flexible, self-healing
| membrane. Organisms with cell walls often have internal
| pressure, which makes any punctures much more serious than for
| animal cells. Perhaps something like that is in play.
|
| I do know that a common mechanism of action for many common
| antibiotics is interfering with the formation of cell walls.
| That's what lets them be effective against bacteria without
| causing (much) harm to the surrounding animal cells.
| NoZebra120vClip wrote:
| While there was full disclosure about flexible implants from a
| recent surgery, I had a rod inserted in my tibia in 2006 and they
| haven't told me its composition. I like to joke that it's
| Adamantium, or me pirate peg leg, yarr. But it's probably
| titanium. It definitely hasn't given me trouble at airport
| inspection points.
| alexwasserman wrote:
| Repeat?
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37319562
| evrimoztamur wrote:
| At a larger scale, diatomaceous earth
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceous_earth)--which is just
| fossilized shells of a kind of micro-algae--is useful for pest
| control. It works essentially the same way, stick onto, dry, and
| even lacerate bugs. Cool concept, waiting to see applications!
| plasma_beam wrote:
| Also used for many swimming pool filters. You literally coat
| the filter grids with straight DE powder.
| tbalsam wrote:
| I'm terrified by the idea of breathing this in. Reminds me of
| asbestos snow.
| tbalsam wrote:
| (especially as they've shown diatomaceous earth to be
| microscopic, razor-sharp fragments. Some people even eat this
| to try to kill parasites, eep! I'm not sure of the research
| here but my Spidey sense at least is going off the clock!
| D''''::::)
| beeforpork wrote:
| How and to what would the modified titanium be applied? Could it
| be a coating for implants? Or a cleaning agent for tools and
| instruments? Or a desinfectant on skin or even wounds?
| simbolit wrote:
| If you read the article, it initially mentions implants, then
| the article ends with the following quote:
|
| "This new surface modification technique could have potential
| applications in medical devices but could also be easily
| tweaked for dental applications or for other materials like
| stainless steel benches used in food preparation and
| agriculture"
| tbalsam wrote:
| It's also likely got some sort of basis in the oligodynamic
| effect, as Titanium rips apart cell walls passively that way as
| well. How much each does each, I can't say.
|
| Works for a lot of other metals, like bismuth (you wonder how
| Pepto stops diarrhea? Oligodynamic effect, among other things),
| copper, silver (yes, they put this in some medical dressings and
| such for hospitals, it kills MRSA as do many oligodynamic
| metals). Usually does the vast majority of its self-sanitization
| within a few _hours_, not days, as I best understand it.
|
| It's an excellent and still-underappreciated effect. Use it in
| your everyday life, I know I go out of my way too and it's quite
| worth it! :3 :')))) < :')
|
| Nothing too new about this article. Titanium white is a good
| self-sanitizing pigment if you need it, though I'd recommend
| talking to the appropriate professional before doing anything
| funky with anything. Stay safe! <3 :'))))
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligodynamic_effect
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| Does Pepto-Bismol indiscriminately kill bacteria in the gut
| then by this effect?
| tbalsam wrote:
| I would assert so, oddly enough different metals kill
| different bacteria, let's see.
|
| I shall now search ncbi and see: Bismuth apparently has
| action, especially highlighted against E. Coli:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8236042/
|
| One study found few significant changes on normal fecal
| microflora before and after during a 1-2 day treatment period
| (I'm assuming this is a 'normal use' case :')))):
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2305174/
| civilitty wrote:
| About 5-10 years ago there used to be a bunch of tupperware
| products impregnated with silver nanoparticles which were
| supposed to slow the growth of mold, fungus and bacteria until
| they were shut down by the EPA as unregistered/untested
| pesticides.
| atoav wrote:
| Afaik this is still used in compound packaging materials
| (e.g. tetrapak).
|
| Traditionally in the alps richer families would put a silver
| spoon into their milk for similar reasons.
| tbalsam wrote:
| This is fascinating, wow. Thank you for sharing that.
|
| If it was not clear from my earlier oligodynamic post, I'm
| autistic and the fewer day-disrupting routines I have
| (washing cup with soap, I'm allergic to almost any
| detergent so it's a ....very long and stressful process to
| make it 'drinkable' and safe-feeling [unfortunately only
| detergent seems to get the biofilm]) the better.
|
| I've heard of farmers putting copper pennies in their rain
| barrels (yes, it actually works, apparently increases the
| amount of copper ions in the water a decent bit though
| IIRC? There's some downside), I hadn't thought of the
| silver contact bit.
|
| I struggle with cups building biofilm quickly, I'll have to
| electroplate some with silver or just put a piece of silver
| in there in the meantime to keep it clean for longer-term
| storage.
| tbalsam wrote:
| That is very cool. I'm currently experimenting with dyeing my
| armpit hair with dyes containing oligodynamic metals to
| reduce the amount of noxiousness induced from long-haul
| (weeks-months) backpacking trips (it's what I do). Deodorant
| is just not worth the weight. Self-sanitizing body hair and
| clothes? Yes. I could do my head hair as well but I'd rather
| have that professionally dyed for sake of aesthetics.
|
| Dead bacteria under clothes do not seem to care about
| aesthetics.
|
| Already did it with my socks. They're all oddly colored, but
| no matter how many days in a row I've worn them to make them
| smell, a few-12 or so hours out of the shoe and the smell
| just...fades to a regular "human" smell (like if someone
| showered vigorously without soap. It's actually a rather
| neutral-pleasant smell).
|
| This is partially also because even after weeks without a
| shower or scrub in the river I still somehow retain my sense
| of smell of myself. It's... terrible. Would not wish it on
| anyone. Losing that sense of smell is an absolute gift, I
| say! :D :'))))
|
| So, in this and in a few other cases, having everything being
| self sanitizing is much more convenient.
|
| Plus, if it's strong enough, as the compounds I
| chose/currently use are non-toxic even if ingested directly
| in large quantities before dyeing, I can use my dry spare
| shirt as a self-sterilizing wound dressing if needed (just
| rinse w/clean water, or river water and leave it for a few
| hours if worried about exogenous compound contamination, but
| it is/should be fortunately quite sterile), or if my water
| filter breaks, I can simply clean an article of clothing
| thoroughly (soapless) in the water supply, then suspend it in
| whichever water vessel I'm putting contaminated water in for
| a few hours to sterilize it nearly completely. Won't remove
| petroleum derivatives or anything like that (unless the
| fabric adsorption really is that good), unfortunately, but
| bacteria/viruses/etc are one of the big kickers.
|
| You can see how oligodynamic materials open up a new world of
| safety, comfort, convenience, and light weight in the world
| of ultralight backpacking.
|
| Currently I'm working as well on building a carrying system
| that uses all of my day to day elements but does not involve
| a backpack. Test run alpha1 is today. Hurray! :')))) :3 <3 <3
| <3 <3 :'))))
|
| [Final note: I'm not a doctor, this is not medical advice, I
| carry niacinamide for emergency treatment of infectious that
| do not respond to antibiotics. It can and will kill MRSA in
| many cases as well due to the fact that it causes the body to
| upregulate a huge variety of anti-viral, anti-bacterial,
| anti-parasitic, etc proteins, i.e. the body's own broad
| spectrum antibiotics. I encourage everyone to carry 5-6+
| 500mg pills in their emergency kit and an adjunct, even if to
| slow down progression while out of civilization.
|
| I could go on about these topics for a long time, I'm an
| empirical researcher, darn it! It's how my brain seems to be.
| :3]
| fellowniusmonk wrote:
| If you don't mind me asking, what dyes have you found
| effective?
| tbalsam wrote:
| Copper pthalocyanidine (generally good-looking+most
| accessible that I know of, so I've stuck with that <3
| :')), you can get it as powder online (cheapest+lightest)
| or as watercolor paint (it's called Pthalo Blue -- yes,
| of Bob Ross fame. Phalo Green has Cobalt IIRC, not the
| same, dunno about toxicity there. Check to make sure the
| dye is pure Copper Pthalocyanidine on the manufacturers
| website). I'm sure there are others, but the ones I've
| found don't bind nearly as well unfortunately, which is
| what we care about (transforming fabrics, proteins,
| compounds, etc to become an oligodynamic surface when not
| previously. As an aside, finding a silver compound of
| some sort that is A. Not damaging long-term, and B. acid-
| dyeing compatible would truly be my dream! <3 :')))))
|
| Acid dye in a pot you don't care about as much (or not,
| it's your life!), citric acid in the canning section is
| the easiest to get. I use maybe 3-4 tablespoons or so.
| Add maybe a tablespoon of salt too.
|
| Make it easier on yourself by putting warm water in the
| pot, adding the watercolor, and stirring until well
| mixed. Then run water from the faucet into the sink until
| it's as hot as it can get, and fill it almost all of the
| way. Then mix in your salt and acid. _Make sure you don't
| have bleach in your clothes, the acid will turn it into
| chlorine gas. In large quantities this can chemically
| destroy your lungs and if you're too far gone you'll
| suffocate. Not likely if you're careful, just adding the
| warning. If you've pre-bleached, rinse several times very
| thoroughly and soak until there is no more bleach
| remaining_.
|
| Then add clothing, and heat water until it's maybe
| ~150-170 degrees or so, I just use a touch test (can
| handle up to 1-1.5 seconds) and err on the lower heat
| side, leaving it for a few hours. Stir and move the
| clothes so they have even contact with the water.
| Otherwise you'll get a blotchy dye. See Reddit for more
| details. I like the blotches, they're cute and add tons
| of personality.
|
| Continue until the water is nearly clear. Acid dyeing
| will oftentimes soak up almost all of the dye in the
| water.
|
| Let it cool, run it through several rinses in the washing
| machine. You can pour the warm liquid and clothes
| straight in. If you didn't have enough salt it might not
| be colorfast.
|
| Repeat 2-3 times or more or until satisfied with the
| color.
|
| You can also do this with your skin, a plastic barrier,
| and an (please be safe!!!!!!) appropriately warm heat
| source. For certain parts where skin cells rub off and
| give off an acrid odor when decaying, dyeing the outer
| layer lasts for about a week, looks a semi-deathly, semi-
| traditional-scottish-impression color of a deeper cyan
| blue, and resists bacterial growth for the time. As these
| cells are dyed, when they come off they will be self-
| sterilizing, reducing the off-byproducts afterwards. You
| can simply then rinse it off your clothing, and yourself,
| in a sink, shower, river, while traveling or the like,
| etc, etc. In the right circumstances, few people will be
| staring at your armpits, etc with the right clothing. :3
| <3 :')))) <3
|
| Also, if you have two gallon ziplock bags (nested, one as
| the 'outer catcher', be sure to remove air to keep all
| garments as submerged as possible, and you control your
| temperature well, and do not care as much about your
| water use, you can dye garments in a hotel room sink this
| way. You can also minimize water wastage (especially if
| the sink has an overflow system) by setting a continuous
| 'hot-as-possible' slow drip. Check it it 1, 2, and 5
| minutes in to make sure the rate has not changed or the
| water temperature, when doing the drip method initially
| it can seem hot enough because the hot water is very
| "fresh", but slowing it down can cause an equilibrium
| where it is cooler due to the lag time in arriving from
| the water heater. (Also, if you do use this method in the
| future, please do let me know! I'd love to know someone
| else is doing this too and if there's any ambiguity,
| possible improvements, etc etc....)
|
| As you can see, I am an absolute fanatic for low-
| resource, high-quality (or high-quality result, at
| least), engineering.
|
| I could happily talk about this for hours or any
| particular usecase you might have, there are many ways to
| approach things. I've used these methods (among others
| similarly creative;P) to remove a surprising amount of
| weight from my backpacking kit, and I have much more
| flexibility too. This is also how I approach neural
| network research, but I love this domain as it's one
| that's directly relatable to many people, and somewhat
| allows me to be seen in what I feel I'm best at.
|
| In any case, thank you for reading this if you made it
| this far, as I noted before, I would absolutely be
| overjoyed to talk about any usecases you might have <3
| :)))) :')))) <3
| civilitty wrote:
| Have you thought about writing up al of your research?
| It's fascinating. I'm also curious if you track your
| blood tests to see if any metals are making it into your
| bloodstream from this process.
|
| _> (it 's called Pthalo Blue -- yes, of Bob Ross fame.
| Phalo Green has Cobalt IIRC, not the same, dunno about
| toxicity there. Check to make sure the dye is pure Copper
| Pthalocyanidine on the manufacturers website)_
|
| Phthalo green is copper based like phthalo blue, except
| with more chlorine substitutions.
|
| I'd stay far away from any dyes or watercolors containing
| cobalt, cadmium, chromium, or the other heavy metals
| unless they're known safe (B12 contains a cobalt atom so
| they're not universally toxic but better safe than
| sorry). They're safe as oil paints when they're not water
| soluble but I don't know if drying oils on skin are a
| good idea.
| tbalsam wrote:
| That's a great idea! I'd love to publish something once
| it's sorta converged for me and has a "workperson's well-
| worn wrench" quality to it. :') I might even publish in
| video form just to make it more accessible to people! :)
|
| And my greatest apologies on the cobalt confusion! I have
| no idea where I got that as being Pthalo green from.
| Cobalt Pthalocyanidine seems to exist as a chemical, not
| lots of pictures, but the one site I saw said...red?
|
| I do generally avoid most of those messy ones. Sadly I'm
| allergic to bismuth vanadate (considered safe), which is
| shame as it's a lovely yellow color.
|
| I was really hyped about silver nitrate due to how many
| people said it was "harmless", but that seemed to be
| assuming one-off events. Apparently it has some negative
| long-term effects, which is a shame as getting silver
| well-into and integrated into that outer layer of the
| skin without an acid dyeing process is...so much easier.
| And, it's silver! Alas, it's not meant to be, it seems
| :'(
|
| I'm sure I'll find a good substitute at some point. :')
| (And thanks again for the correction :3)
| xvilka wrote:
| Rip and tear!
| pvaldes wrote:
| Smart move. The main problem that I see is that what is good for
| the goose is good for the gander.
|
| This spikes are part of something that must adhere to our body,
| but they will shred also --our-- own cells.
|
| I assume that there is a risk of inner bleeding, accidental
| destruction of any white cells frolicking around (maybe
| triggering immune responses), increase of tissue destruction in
| the surgery, or even worse the plates (or the spikes) could get
| loose after a while
|
| ... But I'm not a surgeon. I could be wrong.
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