[HN Gopher] Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard
___________________________________________________________________
Glove80 Ergonomic Keyboard
Author : JNRowe
Score : 266 points
Date : 2023-09-04 02:52 UTC (20 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (danieldk.eu)
(TXT) w3m dump (danieldk.eu)
| AnthonyMQ wrote:
| I bought a Typematrix 2030 since I can bring it wherever i go. It
| is small enough to sit on top of a macbook keyboard and the
| ortholinear layout helped my RSI
| pfannkuchen wrote:
| It looks perfect for someone with 9 fingers on each hand!
| [deleted]
| westoque wrote:
| I was using the Kinesis Advantage 2 (KA2) for the longest while
| 8+ years now, and then recently upgraded to the Kinesis Advantage
| 360 and the KA2 was still hands down the best keyboard that I
| used. I still switch between the KA2 and KA360 but the KA360 is
| as mentioned plagued with so many issues, from the bluetooth
| connection issues all the way to setting the keymap using the ZMK
| software. I would still recommend the KA2 for most users and also
| the best bang for the buck if you can get one used or
| refurbished. The split also doesn't make as big of a difference
| as it seemed at least from my proportions.
| nazgulnarsil wrote:
| I highly recommend low profile switches for those who haven't
| tried them. They weren't really available in many models until
| recently and they're a big step up from standard switches if
| you're more used to laptops.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > they're a big step up from standard switches if you're more
| used to laptops
|
| In what way? I was contemplating a keyboard with mechanical low
| profile switches. One of the reasons was that I could easily
| remap the keys without having to buy new keycaps, since they
| all have the same profile, and for some reason, every
| manufacturer insists on their own home / en / pg up / pg dn
| layout (I'm looking exclusively at "75%" and similar layouts,
| which put those keys in a column).
|
| But I'm hesitant because I've trained myself to not bottom out
| when I type with my regular mechanical keyboards, and my
| fingers enjoy the lack of abrupt stop at the bottom.
| galkk wrote:
| Any specific recommendations for switches/key caps? Can I buy
| some to put into my zsa moon lander?
| fanf2 wrote:
| Low profile switches are not compatible with MX keyboards,
| because all the dimensions are different. There are "mid
| profile" switches made by GMTX and perhaps others, which can
| be swapped into an MX board. (The Kailh mid-profile switches
| are not MX compatible.) You might have to be careful about
| keycap compatibility, to avoid longer caps that might bottom
| out on the switch plate.
| fanf2 wrote:
| Er that should be GTMX
| boomskats wrote:
| One switch I've not seen mentioned here yet is the Kailh
| Sunset switch [0], developed in collaboration with Darryl
| from lowprokb.ca. It is my favourite low profile switch, and
| the closest in feel to my X220-and-previous-generation
| Thinkpad keyboards.
|
| [0]: https://lowprokb.ca/products/sunset-tactile-choc-
| switches
| lawn wrote:
| I personally love the lightest choc switches you can find.
|
| But as other commenter said, they do not fit the standard
| switch slots.
| rjh29 wrote:
| I genuinely prefer my thinkpad's chiclet keyboard over
| mechanical keyboards. I type faster and it's more comfortable.
| danielvaughn wrote:
| I'd really love to see someone design a keyboard that fits your
| hands like a PlayStation controller. I can hold a controller for
| hours without any pain whatsoever.
| knodi123 wrote:
| That's funny, the latest armored core is giving me RSI. I'm not
| saying your experience is wrong, just self-deprecatingly
| reminding you of the old saying about "Make something idiot-
| proof, and they will build a better idiot."
| d4rkp4ttern wrote:
| I've haven't tried the glove80 but suspect I won't like it
| because it doesn't do QWERTY and the columnar layout may not work
| for me.
|
| However over the years I've purchased many ergo kbs: ergo dox,
| kinesis and variants, and I just could not get into any of those.
|
| Until I got the UHK (Ultimate Hacking Keyboard) , and I
| absolutely love it. It retains the QWERTY + regular (staggered?)
| layout, has split/angled halves, and thumb clusters, all of which
| can be programmed with an excellent software.
| cole-k wrote:
| Anecdotally, I did not have too much of an issue switching to a
| columnar layout - I would give it a shot if you were
| interested.
|
| I've been using a Moonlander for about a year. I feel like it
| took at most a week for me to adjust and to attain my current
| typing speed. I probably type a little slower on it (maybe less
| accurately too), but my rate is passable (80-100 WPM). I've
| recently tried a Kinesis Advantage 2 for a few weeks and did
| not find that adjusting to it was very difficult.
|
| Maybe I'm the odd one out here. Edit: having seen other
| comments here, I suspect I might be. Apologies for making
| switching seem trivial.
| wnolens wrote:
| Same, love my UHK. The mod-layer on my thumb has given me so
| much.
|
| My only gripes are the tenting legs sometimes close when I
| shift the keyb around on my desk. And it's not wireless (I
| don't have time to mod).
| xps wrote:
| It seems that any layout is supported and that it comes with
| the QWERTY layout by default.
| d4rkp4ttern wrote:
| You're right. It is qwerty but the columnar is what I meant
| would be a big obstacle
| webkike wrote:
| Ortholinear is what you are referring to and it is
| absolutely worth it to learn. Staggered keyboards don't
| make sense anymore - the originally reason keys were
| staggered was because the bars could not physically overlap
| - and it is far more natural to type only moving each
| finger along two axis
| onetom wrote:
| u mean horizontally staggered doesn't make sense?
|
| ortholinear is the Planck EZ
| (https://blog.zsa.io/2307-goodbye-planck-ez/) for
| example.
|
| this Glove80 is vertically staggered (or as they said in
| the review article: it has column stagger), NOT
| ortholinear.
| d4rkp4ttern wrote:
| With the UHK I am already having difficulty typing
| directly on my MacBook. With the ortholinear this might
| only make switching back and forth harder. But it is
| intriguing.
| danieldk wrote:
| Or easier. I have switched to column stagger pretty
| quickly after going to ergo keyboards and I don't have
| trouble typing on my MacBook. I only dread it now :).
| mpsprd wrote:
| Columnar patterns are painful to muscle memory.
|
| I personally use an ergodox I built, and I will never type fast
| like I can on a staggered layout. I also had to fix a typing
| mistake (I typed c with my index on staggered, and it became
| 'b')
|
| In the end it's the split that saved my wrists. I believe
| everyone should type on one, whatever the model.
| shzwith wrote:
| wow. i like it
| uguuo_o wrote:
| This looked so good until I saw it requires switches to be
| soldered (by them or you). Hot-swappable switches is a must for
| me, specially at this price point. I guess my ergodox will have
| to last a bit longer until a proper replacement is found.
| onetom wrote:
| That made me a bit hesitant too, because it's likely that I
| might not like the switches I choose first.
|
| It takes a few days or weeks of actual usage to have an idea
| how suitable a certain switch type is.
|
| It's also likely that I would choose different switches for a
| few keys....
| linsomniac wrote:
| There is a purchasing option for non-soldered switches.
| uguuo_o wrote:
| Yes, it just means you have to solder the switches yourself.
| From their website:
|
| This is a special version of Glove80 meant for users
| intending to replace key switches. Soldering is required for
| this keyboard to function.
| dagmx wrote:
| I've really been liking my Glove80.
|
| I had an Ergodox before and I like finally having function rows
| back, and the thumb cluster on this is at a nicer angle than both
| the Ergodox and Moonlander.
|
| The wells are pretty easy to get used to and in general I think
| it's just a really well made product.
| mble wrote:
| Why does every ergonomic mechanical keyboard have to cost like 4
| times the price of a standard mechanical keyboard. I do not get
| it, and do not have that much money either.
| nprateem wrote:
| Happy with mine with the 35g pro reds, but the real benefit is
| just being programmable. It has more keys than I need coming from
| a ferris, but the extra thumb keys give more options for layers.
| Also the physical number keys make taking down phone numbers
| while on the phone easier. ZMK can also be built in a github
| action which makes tweaking the layout easier. Would recommend.
| swah wrote:
| Alt-tabbing looks even more uncomfortable.
| wesapien wrote:
| you can change the position of any key. its one of the selling
| points of keyboards with qmk/zmk firmware. you can make unique
| layout for yourself or choose from what others have already
| tested in their setups.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| Looks like it could be great for gaming.
| veec_cas_tant wrote:
| Another option, the Dygma Defy, is releasing soon as well
| https://dygma.com/pages/defy
| al_be_back wrote:
| I used an split ergo keyboard once, felt like I was playing a
| guitar, very distracting/awkward. for me taking short breaks
| works as remedy.
| swader999 wrote:
| Splitting the arrow keys across each hand is a form of mental
| abuse I wouldn't wish on anyone.
| rakenodiax wrote:
| This is why layering is so nice. I have the arrow keys mapped
| to their vim locations and it's been a game-changer
| cole-k wrote:
| I'm not saying I like it either, but I find that it wasn't hard
| to get used to. Probably because I use arrow keys a fair deal
| outside of contexts with vim keybinds so I was forced to
| adjust.
|
| I've also adjusted to: the Happy Hacking Keyboard diamond-style
| arrow keys, and the compact-style arrow keys e.g. on laptop
| keyboards.
|
| Of course the right approach is suggested by the other reply,
| which is to not be lazy like me (remap keybinds, get vimium,
| etc.).
| patel011393 wrote:
| I'll wait for the Naya Create reviews (naya.tech). I need
| something more portable with a mouse integrated.
| konart wrote:
| I'd love it to have 1-2 more columns and one less row. And be
| twice as heavy. Keyboard must have some weight. No matter what
| kind of footing it has - if it's not heavy enough it will slide
| all over the table.
|
| Love my Space65.
| smrq wrote:
| I like but don't love my Glove80. The build quality just feels a
| little cheap given how decidedly not cheap the price tag is. And
| the thumb clusters are quite pointy. I do like how the key well
| shape makes it easy to reach an extra row of keys; I have all my
| parens and braces below the zxcvb row, where on an ordinary
| keyboard all the modifiers would be.
| tymm wrote:
| This is exactly why I wouldn't want to switch from my Kinesis
| 360 Pro even though I prefer the low profile switches and maybe
| the thumb cluster from the Glove80. I just love the build
| quality of the Kinesis 360 Pro.
| siva7 wrote:
| It's funny as i only use my laptop for work and then seeing on
| the other side all those colleagues with 4 monitors and fully
| customized split mech keyboards on a layout i've never heard of.
| We must be living in a different world.
| webkike wrote:
| I'm probably going to get the Glove80 depending on if I like the
| switches more, but I really wish that there was one ergonomic
| keyboard that had 2.5ghz wireless connectivity instead of
| Bluetooth. I actually use these keyboards for gaming, and adding
| 10ms of latency is fine for typing but absolutely unsuitable, so
| I will have to keep it wired
| aswinmohanme wrote:
| I use the Moonlander with a layout that doesn't deviate much from
| the standard Mac keyboard. Even though I sacrifice a little bit
| of single keypress magics that I can do on my Moonlander, it
| enables me to switch more easily to my laptop keyboard on the go.
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| Reminder that if you have any sort of finger or wrist pain,
| arthritis, RSI, etc the simplest fix you can make is to switch to
| a better keyboard layout like Dvorak. QWERTY was made to be
| unergonomic by design and with full intent of making your fingers
| travel further to type out common words to avoid adjacent keys
| from sticking if struck in close temporal proximity due to
| manufacturing limitations of the time.
|
| I switch to Dvorak twenty years ago because I wrongly believed it
| would make me more productive (as if programming is limited by
| how fast you can type!) but stayed for the ergonomics. I should,
| by all rights, have terrible RSI due to how I abused my poor
| upper extremities in my youth but through the mercy of the lord
| and thanks to a miserable month or so of pecking at letters like
| a computer illiterate individual until I learned where the
| (unlabeled) Dvorak keys were, I have no real issues. On days
| where arthritis kicks in, typing isn't an undue discomfort thanks
| to the sane layout of the keys.
| nprateem wrote:
| > Reminder that if you have any sort of finger or wrist pain,
| arthritis, RSI, etc...
|
| Or better yet see a physiotherapist. The most important thing
| is not to ignore any tingling, numbness etc. That's a warning
| sign of RSI. Believe me it's better to address it early.
| tiltowait wrote:
| Just to add a bit of data to the ergonomics claims (of which I
| find many people are skeptical):
|
| https://workmanlayout.org/#tests-using-popular-books
|
| Now, this is a site extolling the virtues of yet another
| layout, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt, but the
| methodology seems sound to me. (Though I used Workman in the
| past, I've since moved to Colemak due to a combination of it
| being built-in to Apple OSs and my dislike of the "ly" digram
| being on the same finger in Workman, plus some other factors.)
|
| Even though Dvorak is the "least efficient" of the three QWERTY
| alternatives measured, it's still over a 40% reduction in
| finger travel distance compared to QWERTY. "Distance traveled"
| is obviously not the sole factor in ergonomics, but it's
| equally obviously a big one.
| ghostpepper wrote:
| I was under the impression that the story about QWERTY being
| designed to slow typists down has been shown to be a myth
|
| eg.
| https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/the-l...
| ComputerGuru wrote:
| I had never come across that before - and I'm one of those
| guilty of spreading this origin story far and wide. Thanks
| for linking it - I think I have more reading to do!
|
| I suppose QWERTY could very well be incidentally terrible
| rather than intentionally so (the keyboard travel in
| comparison to other layouts is genuinely worse).
| deadlyllama wrote:
| I'm very happy with my Glove80. I started with a prototype 3D
| printed model last year: the creators are friends of mine, and I
| wrote the LED status display code for them. I also dropped the
| prototype down a flight of concrete stairs (sorry! It still works
| though).
|
| I now have a production model with the white clicky keyswitches.
| Ultra happy with it. I've been using Kinesis Advantage2s for a
| shade over two decades - the same model DanielDK used for a long
| time. The Glove80 is simply better. I prefer the clicky
| keyswitches. Ergonomics are great. It's really repairable -
| everything is held together with screws (spare parts for my
| Advantage2s are not available, and the function keys are not
| repairable). Open firmware so you can make it do wacky stuff if
| the need arises. Small and light enough for travel - I should get
| a proper case but it's survived a fair few trips stuffed into my
| backpack.
|
| Yeah, adaptation to new keyboard layouts is hard. I used a layout
| that mimicked my old Advantage2 - so I'd paid the cost to learn
| columnar already. I found the default Glove80 layout was better,
| but switching meant a month of confusing Ctrl and Shift. All
| better now!
| wakeupcall wrote:
| As a general question to anybody that used the Kinesis
| Advantage and switched to the Glove80: how's the thumb cluster?
|
| The double-length keys for bk/delete/enter/space allows a lot
| of vertical travel freedom on the hand. Instead of flexing the
| fingers I can just move the whole hand down and hit the lower
| row _very_ comfortably while not having to worry about the
| thumb at all.
|
| I've mocked a few pieces of paper to advantage with the shape
| of the glove80 cluster and I really can't decide if that's good
| or bad. While the inner thumb keys of the advantage are pretty
| far from the key wells, the most important modifiers are all
| closer compared to the glove80.
|
| Trying it on the mockup, the glove80 cluster placement forces
| my hand on a higher position and requires the thumb to stretch
| more.
|
| I've been looking at the advantage 360 and I don't like the
| complete removal of the Fn row, while at the same time I also
| hate the old Fn keys on the advantage. The glove80 layout is
| really nice, but I find the thumb cluster of the advantage to
| be pretty darn good.
| Decabytes wrote:
| I wrote about this in one of my articles. I use a Kinesis
| Advantage 360. It's like the Kinesis Advantage but split. I
| like it, but there are draw backs. Namely, the clusters are
| not mirrored across both keyboards.
|
| Left Side Backspace Delete Ctrl Alt Home End
|
| Right Super Key Ctrl Page Up Page Down Enter Space
|
| The keys are easy to hit, but the biggest problem is the
| space bar. On a typical keyboard the space bar is accessible
| from either thumb. This makes it so that if you are using the
| mouse and are playing an FPS, then you can still jump. This
| is not possible on the Kinesis Advantage withought modifying
| the keys. I use the Smartset program, and have a profile
| specifically for games that fixes this, but it might be
| annoying to some
|
| The second is that fact that there is not print screen key on
| the advantage. I take a lot of screenshots for work so this
| is annoying. I've set one of the 4 macro keys to be the key
| combination I need to make screenshots, but again this
| required some configuration.
|
| With that being said I still like the keyboard. My hands feel
| great even after 12 hours of mixed browsing, coding, and
| writing. My posture is better, and I don't get pain in my
| vertebrae next to my shoulder blade. But there are definitely
| things I would change if I was making it from scratch. Maybe
| in the future I'll Diy a dactyl-manuform^1 which has the
| perfect switches and layout for me.
|
| https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform
| wesapien wrote:
| If you the keys to be higher or closer, you can mod the
| Glove80 with this:
| https://reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/s/QpHIgtydLK
| nprateem wrote:
| I find the bottom row easy to hit but find the top rows are
| awkwardly placed. I've got round this by using the top row as
| toggles for the momentary layers on the bottom row keys, so
| it's fine. I wouldn't want to press them as part of normal
| typing personally.
| schengnz wrote:
| Due to the 3D nature, it is very hard to mock up with a few
| pieces of paper.
|
| One thing to note is that the Glove80 thumb cluster plane is
| at a very different location and angle, compared to the the
| Kinesis Advantage thumb cluster plane. In fact the Glove80
| thumb cluster plane is much lower and slant down gently
| (nowhere as much as DM) towards the opposite half. OTOH the
| KA thumb cluster sits significantly higher than the keywell.
|
| Due to the thumb plane difference, "the glove80 cluster
| placement forces my hand on a higher position and requires
| the thumb to stretch more" is not the case in reality for me.
| wakeupcall wrote:
| I would definitely reposition the thumb cluster on the KA
| to be slightly lower (no more than 1cm lower really),
| however I didn't find this to be a problem for me.
|
| I rest my hands with the pinky/thumb at about 15' (that is,
| the hand is is not with the palm flat but at about 45"
| compared to the keyboard). If I extend pinky and thumb,
| they're naturally on the same plane.
|
| If I could tent the halves though that 1cm of difference
| would be nice.
|
| On the kinesis I can hit comfortably ctrl+alt + "=" (and
| pretty much any other key on either half) with thumb+pinky,
| on both halves. Holding shift is also entirely possible
| with pinky or ring, even in combination with
| ctrl/alt/ctrl+alt and while typing with the remaining 3
| fingers.
|
| Seems a stupid thing to do when written, and maybe it is,
| but hey .. emacs, and I'm doing it with ease actually. I
| normally chord the modifiers with one hand and type with
| the other, but if there's a weird combination I'll just do
| it with a single hand too.
|
| I could definitely 3d-print an entire glove80 mock if I
| found a model.
|
| For a long time I've been pondering about just 3d-printing
| a modified dacytl to fit my own preferences, but it's one
| of those things I wish to just pay for, have some QC
| without wasting time, and be done.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| The thumb cluster on Advantage is simply too high. Glove80
| solved it.
| tho2i342r434234 wrote:
| [flagged]
| borissk wrote:
| Such keyboards are good for people with wrist, shoulder, blood
| flow, etc. problems. But for the majority of computer users a
| regular keyboard is good enough - just take a short rest now and
| then.
| CWIZO wrote:
| Regular keyboards are why many people end up with
| wrist/hand/shoulder/etc. pain. Perhaps going as "extreme" as
| something like Glove80 is unnecessary for most, but I wouldn't
| recommend a regular keyboard to anyone that types at least a
| few hours a day.
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| Agreed.
|
| I'm really glad I took the plunge and switched to a keyboard
| that I could program to move the action away from my pinkies
| (I moved the character blocks outward and got real creative
| with the two new columns between g and h).
|
| Had I waited longer I think it would've gradually dampened my
| enthusiasm for code, just by association.
| gorbachev wrote:
| If you try a split keyboard, either Glove80-like or Kinesis
| Advantage-like, it's pretty clear they're much, much more
| comfortable than rectangular keyboards. Your wrists sit in a
| natural position instead of bent unnaturally outward. This is
| particularly clear the smaller the keyboard is, e.g. on laptop
| keyboards.
|
| In my opinion rectangular keyboards aren't good enough at all.
| They're uncomfortable and bad for your wrists, and the only
| reason people are using them are because: they don't know any
| better, computers (laptops), by default, come with rectangular
| keyboards, force of habit, the cost involved with buying
| another keyboard or having durable wrists/being young and not
| suffering from deteriorating body.
|
| I started using Microsoft Natural Keyboards mid 90s, and moved
| onto Arisu layout mechanical keyboards a few years back when I
| first learned they were an option. They are so much more
| comfortable than rectangular keyboards. It's not even close,
| even without all the customization options available for
| switches, keycaps, tenting, etc.
| todd8 wrote:
| I don't understand the curved keyboard wells as present on the
| Glove80 and Kinesis Advantage keyboards. For most keys on a flat
| keyboard I type not by bending the finger joints and then
| punching the keys with the tips of my fingers by straightening my
| fingers. Instead, I press the keys by largely swinging the whole
| finger up and down and typing with the pads on the distal phalanx
| of the fingers.
|
| This is hard to explain but my experience with my Kinesis
| Advantage is that the keys above the home row and especially the
| function keys (really just function buttons) are too high and are
| oriented with the faces of these keys too angled towards my hands
| (i.e. the normal vector from the top of the keycaps are angled at
| perhaps 45 degrees from vertical). So on an "ordinary" keyboard,
| like a laptop keyboard, the surface of the keycaps are roughly
| parallel to the surface of the laptop keyboard. On such an
| ordinary keyboard it is quite easy to press the number keys and
| function keys without a lot of finger flexing, while on the
| Kinesis Advantage I feel like I am curling my fingers then
| lifting my whole hand and then straightening my fingers to kind
| of punch the keys like one would press a button mounted on a
| wall. (Does this elaborate explanation even make sense or am I
| just being picky?)
|
| I greatly prefer typing on the Kinesis Gaming Keyboard. These
| feel better than using welled keyboards to me.
| tengwar2 wrote:
| This is my experience with the Glove80 and the Maltron. I don't
| have any reason to use the function keys, but I found the
| number keys needed an awkward prod. Consciously keeping my palm
| on the rests mitigated the problem to some degree, but I find
| that an unnatural position, possibly because I am a pianist and
| keep my wrists a bit higher. Stepped rather than bowled
| keyboards might help, but I prefer a flat keyboard, or one that
| is tilted slightly away from me. This is not to say that other
| people will not like the Glove80, and it is certainly well
| made.
| rkagerer wrote:
| I love that the author provides a comparison to the Kinesis
| Advantage.
| eviks wrote:
| These types of design look awesome, keyboard should be split and
| it should reflect the physical difference in finger length etc,
| the only thing missing is one (or two?) tracking points for mouse
| movements without moving your hand, are there keyboards like
| that?
| idank wrote:
| I build popular split ergo keyboards with integrated pointing
| devices: https://holykeebs.com/
| lars_francke wrote:
| Does anyone know where I can get a switch tester from that
| includes all these keys?
|
| I'm in Germany. I found some but they are not for the low profile
| ones. I found this: https://keycapsss.com/switchestester/switch-
| tester/174/kailh... but it's sold out.
| gorbachev wrote:
| You won't find a switch tester for all choc switches, because
| there are way too many to fit in normal size switch testers.
|
| SplitKB's product page lists 15, and that's not the entire
| product line:
|
| https://splitkb.com/products/kailh-low-profile-choc-switches
| lars_francke wrote:
| I only need the four that are available for the Glove80 and
| they seem to be available from splitkb, excellent. Thank you!
| verinus wrote:
| a sidenote: I did use a switchtester a friend lent me and
| thought I had found my favorite switch only to realize, that
| typing on a switch-tester is vastly different to typing an
| actual keyboard. :(
| lars_francke wrote:
| Thanks for the heads-up, I'll keep that in mind.
|
| I've typed the last 20 years on the same keyboard and all
| those "clicky", "linear" etc. things don't mean much to me so
| I hope to benefit by just testing those different styles to
| get a feel for it
| layer8 wrote:
| You can get a basic impression of what the differences are,
| but I agree with the GP that it won't really tell you how
| typing on an entire keyboard with those switches will feel.
| robjwells wrote:
| KPrepublic have a tester that includes all four of the Glove80
| switches (Brown, White, Red, Red Pro) [0] and also a cheaper
| one that excludes the Red Pro [1]. (I ordered the cheaper one
| after reading the review.)
|
| [0] https://kprepublic.com/en-gb/products/kailh-choc-switch-
| test...
|
| [1] https://kprepublic.com/en-gb/products/acrylic-switch-
| tester-...
| dzogchen wrote:
| Does anyone know a EU reseller?
|
| I would like to buy one, but I would like to have the option to
| send it back if I don't like it.
| wesapien wrote:
| They don't and won't do reselling due to the complexity of the
| item. No middlemen. Steve said it best on the Discord.
| brailsafe wrote:
| I appreciate the nerdy customization of this in a way, but every
| time an ergo keyboard comes to the front page I'm a little
| disappointed that it's way too niche, and in this case also
| seemingly a bit unwieldy and stationary.
|
| I've really come to love the now discontinued Sculpt series,
| despite their flaws, and wish someone would just come along and
| produce that again with some minor iterations; fix the dongle
| problems, increase durability, sell it as just the keyboard, and
| maybe allow it to fold in half for increased portability. I'm
| glad there are tweakable keyboards, but I _never_ want to do
| that, I just want speed, confort, versatility, familiarity, and
| minimal size. It would be neat to order one with custom
| superficial elements though. I know the Sculpt isn 't loved by
| everyone, and maybe it's my narrow shoulders, long arms, short
| torso, and alien-like fingers that make it my favorite, but damn
| I like it. A mac version would also be cool, but I get by.
|
| I use it at home, and when I'm working at a cafe for variety, I
| can just toss it in my backpack along with the dongle (that
| frustratingly doesn't have a dedicated compartment in the idiotic
| mouse+keyboard package I'm forced to buy it in) and then use it
| on my lap so I can deal with the odd chair to table height ratios
| of coffee shops.
| GenericDev wrote:
| I just want a freaking vertical keyboard.
|
| I don't understand why this is so freaking hard to find.
|
| Kinesis had the Free Style 2 keyboard[1] that you had to go out
| of the way to buy a vertical stand with, and it has been my go to
| keyboard FOR YEARS now because I just can't find any
| alternatives.
|
| I used to use the Kinesis Advantage keyboards, but they mess with
| my carpal tunnel. As cool as they are the plastic placement for
| the wrist rests still mess with you. It's awful if you have
| carpal tunnel. And yes, everyone is saying they help, but they're
| still sources of aggravation because you are wresting your wrists
| on the plastic and compressing them. And yes, you can get some
| pads, but that really doesn't change the system.
|
| I just want some g- d- vertical keyboards. And no one makes them
| with good layouts.
|
| I got this crazy battlestation vertical keyboard from Safe Type
| [2] and I freaking HATED it because their layout puts a bunch of
| keys in the middle and there's an insane F-row keyset that
| requires me to move my hands all over the place. It's ridiculous!
|
| How hard is it to get a vertical keyboard with a good keyboard
| layout?! I'm so scared my free style 2 is going to fail and I'm
| going to have to go back to a world with terrible keyboards. I
| even e-mailed Kinesis asking if they were going to go the same
| route of vertical keyboards and they refuse to. I'm dying here.
|
| At this point I would love if someone made keyboard gloves that
| let me put them on and wear them to type so I don't have to
| compress any nerves, but I doubt that will ever happen. I feel
| like I'm nuts.
|
| [1] https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/freestyle2-keyboard/
|
| [2] https://www.allthingsergo.com/safetype-keyboard/
| danieldk wrote:
| You can get a mounting plate for the Glove80 and mount it
| vertically. Some people do.
|
| I went through some ergonomics research and they suggest that
| lower angles are better than completely vertical. It differs
| per paper, but most comfortable angle in group studies seems to
| be somewhere between 20 and 45 degrees if I remember correctly
| (I'd have to dig up the papers again).
| chipsa wrote:
| The Keyboardio Model 100[0] has 1/4-20 threaded holes (standard
| tripod) in the bottom, so you can add them onto whatever crazy
| setup you have that uses that threading. So, you'd have to hack
| together a stand, probably, but once you do, you can make the
| stand exactly the way you want it. I've heard of people
| mounting the keyboard to their chair.
|
| 0: https://shop.keyboard.io/pages/model100
| Zizizizz wrote:
| https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/platform/
| fallous wrote:
| Interestingly I bought my mother-in-law a keyboard back in 1997
| or so from an early auction site (not ebay) that had a release
| and dial that would split the keyboard and raise it in the
| center so you could pick any angle from 0-degrees to about 60
| degrees vertical. As a transcriptionist she had dealt with
| carpal tunnel for years and that keyboard greatly reduced her
| pain. Sadly, I think it died in the early 2000s and I could
| never find a proper replacement.
|
| It might have been a Keytronic, but I've slept since then.
| raylad wrote:
| This one?
|
| https://www.goldtouch.com/ergonomic-keyboards/
| gigatexal wrote:
| I wish I had seen this earlier. Probably a few hours before
| seeing this on HN I bought a Kinesis Advantage 360 from an EU
| retailer for nearly 700 euros (I got the palm/wrist rests).
|
| And I am still waiting on a Moonlander to try out as well but DHL
| customs is being difficult.
|
| I really do think this keyboard is interesting. My only concern
| is why not use the more mainstream cherry mx mechanism?
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| The reason is that mx switches together with keywell make a
| keyboard quit high, which is causing issues - you need either a
| desk which can go quite low, or a chair and monitor stands
| which can be adjusted quite high for an ergonomic position. I
| have a KA2 and Model100 and yes, it is a problem if you do not
| have adjustable desks. Choc switches allow to keep the profile
| low.
| gigatexal wrote:
| That makes sense. I will try out the moonlander and the
| kenesis and i might pick this up as well if i return both of
| the others. It's cheaper so that's awesome.
| vanarok wrote:
| another ergonomic keyboard, and physical keyboard alternatives
| are still ahead
|
| look at the tap strap
| henrik_w wrote:
| I had severe problems with RSI many years ago, to the point where
| I thought I had to give up programming alltogether. I also got an
| ergonomic keyboard, which helped, and an argonomic pen-like
| mouse. However, I would say that even more important in getting
| rid of my problems was the use of a break program. It reminds me
| to take regular breaks, and prompts me to to stretches throuhgout
| the day. The combination of these things meant that I recovered
| completely from my problems.
|
| More info here: https://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-
| rsi/
| d4rkp4ttern wrote:
| The pen-like mouse is intriguing.
| adrian_b wrote:
| While I have not used a Penclic mouse, I am pretty sure that
| it is inferior to using a small Wacom Intuos graphic tablet
| instead of a mouse, like I do.
|
| The tablet is no larger than a traditional mouse pad, it is
| even somewhat smaller.
|
| The stylus, i.e. the pen, is much lighter than any pen-like
| mouse can be, and it has better resolution and accuracy.
| Because the pen works contactless and it is very light, you
| can move it very fast. You can point to any location on the
| screen faster than with anything else.
|
| Because the pen is so light, I usually retain it between my
| fingers while I am touch typing, without noticing that I
| still keep it, which shortens a lot the transitions between
| typing and using the graphic pointer. I leave the pen on the
| tablet only before starting to type a long text.
|
| The tablet is switched to "relative" mode at startup, so it
| behaves as an ordinary mouse. I use it under Linux, where it
| has excellent support.
|
| The equivalent of the mouse buttons is configurable. I have
| chosen to touch the tablet with the pen for left click, and
| to use the two thumb buttons for right click and for double
| left click.
|
| After I have begun to use a graphic tablet instead of a
| mouse, trackball, trackpoint or touchpad a couple of years
| ago, my only regret is that I have not thought to try this
| earlier, because at least for me it is much more comfortable
| than the alternatives, and it is also much more precise,
| being easy to use for drawings or signatures.
| djbusby wrote:
| How did you configure the Wacom? Like in xorg.conf? Any
| tips?
| wesapien wrote:
| I believe Wacom is a first class citizen in Linux. They
| have it in the kernel (https://linuxwacom.github.io/).
| There is also https://opentabletdriver.net/ that is
| multi-platform.
| adrian_b wrote:
| My .bashrc script (when logging on, which is checked by
| the fact that no GUI session is running) starts X Window
| (actually it starts an XFCE session, because that is what
| I use), then it remaps the keyboard to a custom Dvorak
| variant and it configures Wacom thus:
|
| WACOM_ID=$(xsetwacom list | grep STYLUS | cut -f 2 | cut
| -d " " -f 2)
|
| xsetwacom set "$WACOM_ID" "Button" "2" "button +3 "
|
| xsetwacom set "$WACOM_ID" "Button" "3" "button +1 -1 +1
| -1 "
|
| xsetwacom set "$WACOM_ID" "Mode" "Relative"
|
| The line that discovers WACOM_ID is necessary because the
| Wacom device driver does not always use the same device
| numbers, even when nothing has been inserted or extracted
| in or from the USB ports. Moreover, even the Wacom
| subdevices are not always listed in the same order, hence
| the need to use grep for row select.
|
| There are many other ways to execute a script on startup,
| where you can add these lines.
|
| The acceleration of the Wacom mouse cursor is configured
| in the standard desktop settings.
|
| "button +3 " means that the associated action is right
| click.
|
| "button +1 -1 +1 -1 " means that the associated action is
| left double click.
|
| I have left the default action for touching the tablet
| with the pen, which is left click. Selection by pointing
| and touching is even more natural than with a mouse or
| other alternatives.
| henrik_w wrote:
| I'm still using a Penclic mouse. I love it, works great for
| me.
| smokel wrote:
| When I (or to be more precise, when a colleague I was trying to
| pair program with) used them, these programs infuriated me to
| no end. Just when I was on to something, I got smacked in the
| face with a modal dialog.
|
| Perhaps things have improved over the years, but I could not
| imagine a user interface that would cater to both my physical
| _and_ mental well-being.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| I personally have it turned off, but smartwatches are good at
| notifying you with a slight vibration.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| Apparently I just don't work very hard and take lots of breaks
| all the time without an app needing to remind me.
|
| Also, my colleagues find it very annoying when I stand up and
| start pacing around when I am thinking something through.
| atoav wrote:
| As someone who sits in front of computers way above the average
| and never had any issues with eyes or hands (while others my
| age had issues there) I think this is the key:
|
| Try to get into the habit to stretch your wrists/fingers when
| you are not using them and try to do the same thing with your
| eyes (eyes are muscles too), by e.g. focusing onto something
| far away, rolling your eyes, etc.
|
| If you are of the type that gets lost in work some reminder can
| help, but I think it is better to form habits of using thinking
| breaks to do the stretching. Nobody types regularily for 3
| hours straight without interrupting to think at least for a bit
| once every few minutes. If you use these breaks to stretch, you
| will be fine.
|
| Ultimately a person with good habits will be able to work
| healthy with seemingly unergonomic setups, while a person with
| bad habits will be able to use even the most ergonomic setup in
| unhealthy ways.
|
| Everybody knows that collegue who has that incredibly expensive
| ergonomic chair and sits on it like a bored prototypical
| teenager. Habits will always trump tools, unless your tools are
| so incredibly bad, it will be self evident that they are.
| d4rkp4ttern wrote:
| Curiously, unlike many, my wrists and fingers have been fine
| but I have tight/frozen shoulder and neck issues. Keeping the
| UHK halves apart and Magic Trackpad in the middle has
| probably been helpful, I can't say yet.
| Agingcoder wrote:
| I developed shoulder pain because my chair armrest was too
| high so was propping my shoulder up ever so slightly. It
| took me a while to figure out, and my pain went away quite
| quickly once I'd understood the problem.
|
| More recently, someone took my chair and moved the head
| rest by a few centimeters. This pushed my head forward a
| bit - bam ! Neck pain.
|
| You might want to check your chair/posture ( or it might be
| unrelated).
| ahoka wrote:
| How much do you type a day to have problems? I have never felt
| limited by my typing speed or comfort during my career, but I
| understand that different people might have different
| workflows.
|
| For me it's thinking, writing a few lines and start thinking
| again.
|
| One programmer guy I know who had RSI problems was actually
| writing way too much and overly verbose code and also literally
| banged on the keys instead of pressing them.
| onetom wrote:
| I'm 46, programming since I was 6 years old and started
| having wrist and even lower-arm pain ~2-3 years ago. Even the
| tips of my fingers hurt sometimes.
|
| I never would have imagined I will have such problems...
|
| It's probably the combination of many factors, probably age
| mostly, but I'm also experimenting with Emacs, with Ctrl
| being on Caps-Lock and I think that has triggered the
| problem. Thumb-tip pain is probably from the SpaceFn layout,
| but the other finger-tips, no idea.
|
| My main keyboard is a Leopold FC M660 with Cherry blues, but
| IIRC the problems has already started on a stock 60% Cherry
| MX with linear red switches.
|
| I've also experimented with vegetarian diet for 11 months,
| which fucked up my guts and ass, plus I always felt super
| tired, then a beef + potato only diet for 6 months, but that
| made my joints hurt. Pretty much caused gout, which is also
| supposed to be worsened by drinking high-fat milk, which I do
| drink about a liter a day, like I did most of my life. But
| then the problems has slowly subsided. Not sure what has
| changed though; I only got older...
| justapcgamer wrote:
| I think its just genetics, some people are more inclined to
| experience RSI due to structure of wrists. I'm 22 and I
| started experiencing wrist pain during college and found that
| split keyboards are the solution for me to be able to do my
| work without pain.
| toyg wrote:
| Shoulders too. The wider the shoulders, the more awkward
| your posture becomes on fixed keyboards. Also length of
| legs, length of spine, etc etc.
| waynesonfire wrote:
| I'm a huge fan of the Goldtouch V1 keyboard. I have been using
| it along with their fantastic pads my entire career. I have
| accumulated a surplus of these keyboards as I intend to use
| them until I'm unable to type.
|
| I discovered them when I started my first job at HP-UX in
| Cupertino, CA and a bunch of people there were using them.
|
| I also switched to Dvorak a few years before than.
|
| I don't like their V2 offering, as an emacs user the caps lock
| key is gimped and I don't need the windows key near the ctrl /
| alt keys.
| bartvk wrote:
| It's also my experience that break reminders prevent wrist
| pain. For macOS, I recommend Time Out. Actively maintained,
| with all the options you'd want.
|
| https://dejal.com/timeout/
| henrik_w wrote:
| I'm using MacBreakZ 5. Simple, but works well for me.
|
| https://www.publicspace.net/MacBreakZ/
| jacknews wrote:
| Do they sell eye-strain relief software too?
|
| I need it after squinting to read the ultra-fine low
| contrast font on their website...
| cole-k wrote:
| Any recommendations for cross-platform apps? I know that I
| need to take breaks but keeping to it is difficult for me.
| kubov wrote:
| I bought moonlander some time ago and found the learning process
| far too frustrating. What's more, I noticed that the more I
| switched to the new layout, the more I was struggling with more
| classic ones (primarily laptops and my trusty MS NEK 4000). That
| was enough for me to shelve the moonlander for now.
|
| How long it takes to fully and comfortably switch, including all
| the punctuation characters? Did you also struggle with other
| keyboards?
| s4i wrote:
| For an easier learning curve, consider a regular 75% layout
| split in two. The only keyboard I know of that uses this is
| Mistel Barocco MD770, which I've been using for two years. I've
| swapped the keycaps to DSA ones.
| least wrote:
| The learning process is pretty normal, other than that you have
| a vague idea of where keys are if you're already touch typer,
| which is to say it's incredibly frustrating... until it's not.
|
| How long it takes probably depends on the person but I'd say if
| you actually force yourself to use it you'd probably feel
| comfortable on it in less than a month. To me it wasn't really
| much of a choice. It was one of many changes I had to make to
| help deal with RSI.
|
| A lot of people use standard keyboards their entire life
| without issue. If you're not experiencing issues with a
| standard keyboard, why make things harder on yourself than
| necessary?
| rgoulter wrote:
| I had learned touch-typing (for a non-qwerty layout), so using
| a keyboard where the keys are in columns isn't so difficult.
|
| I suspect it's difficult for the "quick hunt-and-peck", where
| your fingers can quickly hunt down the keys on the staggered
| rows, but aren't trained to follow finger-per-column that the
| classic touch-typing discipline encourages.
|
| > ... including all the punctuation characters
|
| It's actually not so bad. The symbols associated with 0-9 stay
| in the same positions as you put 0-9. This leaves `, -=, [],
| /\\. You can put [] near (), or in some other way that makes
| sense; you can put /\ together. ` I tend to have on a pinky
| finger. -- Rather, I'd say there are ways of arranging the
| symbols so that it retains what you're familiar with, or has an
| improved association to it.
|
| > ... the more I was struggling with more classic ones ...
|
| When I was learning a non-qwerty layout, I struggled using
| either qwerty or dvorak. Eventually, my motor memory was able
| to sort it out. -- Although, I think using different layouts on
| the same keyboard is _very_ confusing.
| dharmab wrote:
| It took me about one week to me productive on an ErgoDox and
| another week to surpass my original typing speed and accuracy.
| I created my own layout instead of using the default, based on
| what was easiest for me to reach and the most common symbols I
| used.
|
| After a few weeks I could look away from the screen to have a
| conversation with a coworker while still typing at full speed
| and accuracy.
| wesapien wrote:
| I only have two kinds of keyboards: a regular 94 key Mechanical
| Keyboard and the Glove80. My accuracy/speed is now equal on
| both for QWERTY after 3 weeks. It is confusing to switch
| between Colemak-DH back to QWERTY on the same keyboard. I'll
| fix the Glove80 to Colemak-DH and use QWERTY everywhere else.
| CTDOCodebases wrote:
| This is the way.
|
| I'm doing this with a regular mechanical keyboard and a
| Cantor Remix. QWERTY on the mechanical and laptops, Colemak-
| DHm on the Cantor.
|
| The physical context seems to help keep the two separated in
| my subconscious.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Took me a few days. 14 years ago on Kinesis Advantage, it took
| me maybe 2 weeks.
| yla92 wrote:
| I went through the similar journey with Moonlander. Took me
| about 3/4 months to be comfortable, with tweaking the layout
| quite a few times.
|
| I did have some struggling with normal layout after. It sounds
| silly but after typing almost everyday on monkeytype.com,
| things (wpm, accuracy, etc) are stable for me.
| hotfixguru wrote:
| I love my glove80. Went from 110 WPM to about 10 the first day,
| practiced a few hours and got to ~60 in a day or two. After a
| week or two I could comfortably program with it without feeling
| slowed down.
|
| I have no more pain in my left arm after a work day, and I feel
| like it's easier to sit with a proper posture.
| colordrops wrote:
| I'm close to 50yo so i blame my slow uptake on that but I'm
| finally close to my original typing speed now (also about 110)
| after a month on the glove80. I'm not quite convinced by it yet
| as a pragmatic tool but I'm enjoying the hell out of it as
| something new and interesting. Kind of like driving stick. Had
| to do a bit of remapping to get it to be usable, as i use the
| super key a lot for my window manager.
| onetom wrote:
| where did u map the super key to?
| donatj wrote:
| I am in my late thirties and have been developing arthritis in my
| hands for almost ten years now. I have tried a lot of different
| ergonomic keyboards including the aforementioned Kinesis
| Advantage. I was extra hopeful for it, but even after getting
| through the rather intensive learning process I didn't find it
| helped. If anything I think aggravated the problem.
|
| I found myself having to repeatedly bend and unbend my individual
| fingers to reach keys. This action is particularly painful for
| me. On a standard keyboard I can maintain roughly continuous
| finger curl and move my entire arm at the shoulders only slightly
| extending the finger I wish to use.
|
| I remain largely unconvinced of the benefits of welled keyboards,
| since they do seem to increase overall wear on individual
| fingers.
|
| The solution I found that has actually helped the most is simply
| using a keyboard with the lowest pressure mushiest rubber domes.
| For me that has been a keyboard I already owned, a Sun Type 7
| sooheon wrote:
| There are a lot of touted ergo features: tenting, concave
| keywell, l/r split, ortho columns, thumb cluster. Of these, the
| most important IME is the thumb cluster -- giving more work to
| your thumbs and taking load off your pinkies.
|
| This led me to HHKB JP layout for 80/20 ergo benefit without
| having to carry two unwieldy halves of a keyboard when I want
| portability. Still use Kinesis Advantage 2 at home, but nothing
| beats the HHKB JP when traveling.
| strongly-typed wrote:
| Same. I'm actually skeptical of some of the claims,
| particularly in regards to ortholinear/column stagger key
| arrangements. In particular I feel like this actually makes the
| layout worse in some situations. For example, consider the `in`
| bigram in qwerty. It's one of the most common bigrams in
| English, and if you switch to most ergo boards, the distance
| between those keys will _increase_ which will require a bigger
| stretch for your index and middle finger, and consequently
| reduce your ergonomics (at least for that bigram).
|
| HHKB JP is very nice in that it has a slightly reduced row
| stagger, is a single board, and has extra thumb keys which can
| be remapped to for layers or moving things such as shift or
| backspace into more comfortable positions.
| rgoulter wrote:
| > I'm actually skeptical of some of the claims, particularly
| in regards to ortholinear/column stagger key arrangements. In
| particular I feel like this actually makes the layout worse
| in some situations. For example, consider the `in` bigram in
| qwerty.
|
| In different arrangements of keys, some words will be easier
| to type than others (and some will be more difficult).
|
| e.g. Comparing Dvorak and qwerty. -- With the example 'in',
| both of these letters are on home row on Dvorak, whereas both
| letters require reaching with the fingers on qwerty.
|
| I don't think it's worth putting strong weight on any one
| example.
|
| I'd point to the distances between (on a typical keyboard);
| between FT should be the same as JY; and between FB should be
| the same as JN. -- But on the traditional row stagger, these
| distances are absurdly different.
|
| I find it hard to believe that the best arrangement of
| alphabetical keys would be _asymmetrical_.
| strongly-typed wrote:
| The fact is that language is itself not symmetrical
| (consider 5 major vowels vs 21 consonants and semivowels),
| so really a better solution is to use a keyboard layout
| that is optimized to fit a physical arrangement of keys.
| (Side note: I've spent the last three years critically
| thinking about, learning, and designing a few handfuls of
| keyboard layouts and keyboard layout analyzers/generators.
| At the moment, the layouts which works best for me are
| MTGAP and Graphite, both of which work really well in both
| an ortholinear and rowstagger configuration. (I also used
| Dvorak for 15 years prior to switching). Though, the layout
| iceberg goes pretty deep, so if you don't like the layouts
| I mention, there are tons of other layouts to pick from).
|
| The only reason I bring up `in` and ignore the rest of the
| keyboard is because `in` is right up there with `th` in
| terms of frequency. Worsening it has a significant and
| noticeable effect IMO. Though, I could also point to
| another reason which might make ortholinear not ideal for
| some people. Consider the left middle finger column on
| qwerty: EDC. E is simultaneously the most common letter,
| and also combines with basically every other letter
| (consider typing `decided`). It's very common for qwerty
| typists to use alternative fingerings to avoid the same
| finger sequences. Commonly you'll see index finger used for
| D and C. An ortholinear layout used with qwerty moves D and
| C further away from the index finger, making the alternate
| fingerings more difficult/cramped/impossible.
|
| Tangentially, something I think works in the glove80's
| favor however is the scooped design. While `in` is pushed
| further apart, I imagine that the curvature of the keyboard
| in utilizing the 3rd dimension helps reduce this distance
| somewhat.
|
| EDIT: Here's a video demonstrating someone using an
| ortholinear keyboard with qwerty at an impressive 170+ wpm:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HHFK-GbECWA Note, my comments
| above have to do with ergonomics. At the end of the day,
| ~~honey badger don't care~~ people adapt, and can sometimes
| get incredibly efficient using tools with dubious ergonomic
| value. Compare that video with my own using MTGAP and you
| can immediately see a difference in finger movement:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Msebf_zNaxY
| rgoulter wrote:
| Here's a video with a direct comparison (typing same
| text, video above video) of row-stagger qwerty vs ortho
| dvorak; both at about the same WPM.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWjgFqy8IE0
|
| Not as fast as 170WPM, though. :)
| rgoulter wrote:
| It's bizarre to me that the big spacebar remains a standard
| feature on keyboards. It would be better for the thumbs to be
| able to use e.g. backspace, enter, escape, tab.
|
| And unlike those other features, there's no downside to making
| the spacebar smaller. (The only thing I can think of is some
| people press with their right thumb instead of their left; but,
| a 2U spacebar would cover that).
|
| (I'd still much rather have a keyboard that's symmetrical and
| ortho; although I can at least understand that traditional
| layouts have such a stay that it's only enthusiasts who would
| use keyboards with these features).
| layer8 wrote:
| It depends. My thumb joints specifically can't bear a lot of
| action, so all those thumb-cluster ergonomic keyboards are a
| non-starter for me. Hitting the space bar is about as much as
| my thumbs can handle.
| cjbprime wrote:
| It looks neat, though it always seems strange to me when an
| ergonomic setup involves picking up one of your hands and moving
| it to the side often to use a separate mouse or keyboard. Is
| there not a better place to put it, integrated or slightly above
| or in the middle etc, to avoid having to change hand position all
| the time?
| phero_cnstrcts wrote:
| Go to https://kbd.news/search/ and search for "trackball" to
| get some inspiration. Personally I would like to try something
| like the Orbyl but haven't had the time to build one yet.
| zubairshaik wrote:
| That's the exact idea behind the Charybdis and Dilemma keyboard
| (kits) from Bastard Keyboards [0]
|
| [0] https://bastardkb.com/
| crabbone wrote:
| I use Kinesis Advantage 2 for work, but I don't use it to play
| video games. First, it's kind of expensive, and games wear the
| keyboard very quickly, second: game designers assume a more
| conventional keyboard layout, so, for example, small function
| keys are a non-starter for a lot of games. Also, games assume
| that the player should be able to press keys 6-0 with the same
| hand they press 1-5 (while holding the mouse in the other hand)
| -- this doesn't work well with split keyboards.
|
| I would expect the same to be true, more or less for this
| keyboard. With the exception of function keys being bigger. On
| the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want function keys to not be
| very easily distinguishable from the rest. At least, in the case
| of Kinesis, some of them control keyboard's own macros /
| remapping. Accidentally hitting those might result in an hour
| long break trying to reprogram the keyboard to do what it used to
| do before you fat-fingered it to do something stupid.
| renke1 wrote:
| I'd love to try all those ergonomic keyboards, but the most
| ergonomic thing for me still is a Thinkpad-style trackpoint.
| CrackpotGonzo wrote:
| I wish they would make a wireless trackpoint keyboard for Mac.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| I love my Glove80 with Pro Reds at 35 grams. 14 years on Kinesis
| Advantage and not looking back.
|
| I gave up on ordering KA360 when I heard from several people that
| even the wired version was as plagued with issues as the
| Bluetooth one without in house expertise to resolve it, reliant
| on contractors.
| d5ve wrote:
| I use a Glove80 keyboard, and even after 4 months I'm not back to
| my normal typing speed! This has cost me a fair bit of
| productivity, and was stressful at times. Almost feeling like I'd
| suffered a bit of brain damage, where I could picture what I
| wanted to do, but be unable to type it out.
|
| Having the modifier keys in the thumb cluster feels a lot less
| awkward than using my left-hand little finger at odd angles. And
| I like the fit and finish and customisation.
|
| Overall though, I think I would have been better served by a
| regular qwerty, not columnar, split keyboard. Maybe my middleaged
| brain ain't plastic enough any more.
|
| <small>Plus I think the benefits of columnar are oversold. If I
| naturally curl my fingers in and out, they kinda fan in and out,
| rather move in parallel straight lines. And the right hand side
| of a regular keyboard matches that movement pretty well. The left
| hand side is backwards of course.
| wnolens wrote:
| > I think I would have been better served by a regular qwerty,
| not columnar, split keyboard
|
| I recc the ultimate hacking keyboard (UHK). It's as you
| describe, and I love it.
| danieldk wrote:
| These differences between people are really interesting. When I
| switched from a traditional keyboard to a flat column stagger
| keyboard, I did 15-30 minutes of exercises a day and after a
| week I was pretty much at my regular speed. Going from a flat
| column stagger keyboard to a Kinesis Advantage took me a few
| hours of adjustment at most. And from the Advantage to the
| Glove80 no adjustment at all.
|
| I type Colemak-DH, but I am experimenting on the side with
| letter on thumb layouts. Over the past few weeks, I have tried
| rsthd, Maltron, and now aptmak (30 key variant). With aptmak I
| am at 40 WPM after ~5 days. I still type Colemak-DH during the
| workday at my regular speed, I can switch to a typing tutor and
| type aptmak at that speed again after two minutes or so (even
| though I have space on the other hand).
|
| I am sorry for all those people for which this is a really long
| painful process. I am sure age is a factor, but I am also past
| 40, so it's definitely not the only factor.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| Keep practicing! When I switched to KA2 I could not type with
| the same speed for months. I've also decided to switch from
| QWERTY to Colemak at the same time - it did not improve the
| situation.
|
| But I am fine now, have a KA2 @work, Model 100 @home and have
| no problems switching between them whatsoever on a daily basis.
| I've also ordered Glove80 and I am sure it will be fine. What I
| have some problems with, are those rare occasions where I
| travel and have to use my notebook's keyboard. Everything -
| staggered layout, lack of thumb cluster, no split, scissor
| switches - is just a source of huge discomfort.
| noveltyaccount wrote:
| I tried a columnar layout for a while (ergo dox kit if I
| recall) and gave up because when I was in meetings on my laptop
| keyboard I made _so many_ typos. The worst was hitting Enter on
| my laptop when I was aiming for apostrophe. So many
| unintentionally sent IMs.
| onetom wrote:
| I couldn't type blind for 30+ years. Never bothered to learn
| it. Then I used https://www.keybr.com/ a couple of times, less
| than an hour in total and I was able to touch-type afterwards
| at an acceptable speed and error rate.
|
| So when I'm experimenting with a new keyboard of key layout, I
| always practice on keybr.com 1st, because it tremendously
| speeds up the getting-used-to period!
| daggersandscars wrote:
| If you have arthritis in your base of thumb joints, keyboards
| with thumb clusters may not be a good fit for you. I can use
| these types of keyboards for a day or two, then the thumb pain is
| too much.
|
| I have the same issue with game controllers, so that may be a
| good indicator of problems with this type of keyboard.
| matthewtse wrote:
| I haven't been following ergonomic keyboards for awhile, but went
| pretty deep a few years ago back when the Dactyl Manuform and
| Kinesis were the only names in town.
|
| So seeing the Glove80, I was excited to see a new "mass-
| manufactured" entrant in the space, since dactyl manuforms have
| to be 3d-printed and handwired, thus meaning they're hard to come
| by and quite expensive.
|
| The glove80 looks interesting, however at $400 it's not much
| cheaper than handmade dactyls
| (https://bastardkb.com/product/scylla-prebuilt-preorder-2/). So
| if I were purchasing another one, I'd probably still go for a
| dactyl, as there's more community history/support, and hand-built
| build quality might be higher.
|
| If an injection molded + flexible PCB mass manufacturer for these
| curved keywell ergonomic keyboards could release something for
| around $200, then the space might really heat up!
| wesapien wrote:
| I have it. The community is active in Discord. They also have a
| section for buying/selling Glove80's from users and getting
| mods done. The firmware is ZMK and lots of configuration
| options. I was glad to have bought this over any Dactyl. The
| physical key layout is amazing. The Red Pro switches even
| better than I expected coming from C MX Reds. The low profile
| is also great and I prefer it over standard height keys. It met
| my expectation. Checkout Ben Frain on YouTube since he has the
| Glove80, Moonlander, Kinesis Advantage 360 and a Dactyl. A
| customized to your hand Dactyl w/ low profile low force linear
| switches would be enticing.
| danieldk wrote:
| I think one of the issues is that the key wells need to hand
| soldered, which increases the cost per unit.
|
| You can find well-priced Glove80s sometimes. I was particularly
| lucky and found one for 150 Euro. But for the other, the 360
| Euro was well spent!
|
| At any rate, people spend thousands on a MacBook, but for a
| product that probably lasts longer and might save your job
| long-term, we suddenly practice extreme austerity. When I had
| my brush with wrist pain, I realized that the money spent on a
| good keyboard, chair, and desk is nothing compared to the
| income lost if I can't work until I'm retiring.
| matthewtse wrote:
| I hand-wired and hand-soldered two of them myself (back
| before you could buy them as easily). I was hoping flexible
| PCBs (https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/qbw
| 7i4/o...) would make the hand-wiring part much less labor
| intensive.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Dactyl thumb cluster is not good. Glove80 nailed it and the
| community is very supportive.
| tehnub wrote:
| I have a Scylla and a Skeletyl from BastardKb (the site
| linked above). The Skeletyl is a 3x5 keyboard with three
| thumb keys each hand, and I love the thumb clusters on it.
| Works perfectly with Miryoku and each key is very comfortable
| to press.
| matthewtse wrote:
| I'm pretty happy with mine, looks like this: https://www.redd
| it.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/p282ee... I like how
| the thumb buttons splay across the way you rotate the thumb,
| so you don't need to stretch/contract the thumb, which is
| awkward.
|
| What do you like about your Glove80 thumb cluster?
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| My thumb rests at close to neutral position on Glove80 as
| well, at least compared with Advantage. I like that I can
| press thumb keys more by moving my arm slightly without
| having to contract my thumb tendons whereas Dactyl is more
| of a claw grip.
| processunknown wrote:
| Can someone who owns a Glove80 do a sound demonstration video
| please? Ive looked on youtube and there is not much out there.
| One of the main reasons I couldn't get adjusted to using the
| Ergodox EZ was due to how it sounds.
| dcre wrote:
| I changed my Ergodox's switches to some nice silents and put it
| on a desk pad and it was a lot better.
| processunknown wrote:
| I might do that. I have Cherry MX Browns. I bought case foam
| and pcb foam for dampening. Could only install the pcb foam
| since it wouldn't close with both. It didn't make much of a
| difference. I do have a desk pad but I tent the keeb
| sli wrote:
| Browns (and Clears, my preference) are pretty darn loud in
| my experience despite being only tactile and not also
| clicky. You can help with O-rings, but I agree with the
| above commenter that silent switches are probably an ideal
| solution. Well, assuming they meant to imply that.
| jseliger wrote:
| _I was looking forward to the Kinesis Advantage360 Pro, since it
| solves some of the issues with the Advantage2. It supports three
| different tenting angles and is a truly split keyboard. However,
| the Advantage360 Pro was quite a disappointment. The keyboard,
| which is a hefty 650 Euro, was plagued with Bluetooth issues, the
| Gateron Brown switches were tiring for me, and Kinesis didn't
| improve the thumb cluster. I switched back to my Advantage2 after
| a while and the 360 Pro was collecting dust._
|
| I got a Kinesis Advantage 360 through Upgrade Keyboards:
| https://upgradekeyboards.com/collections/kinesis-advantage36...
| with Box White switches, and it's been great. Expensive, yes, but
| great. I got the wired version for the usual reasons ("he who
| knows wireless, chooses wired"). YMMV. I also like the brown
| switches but like speed switches or box whites better.
| least wrote:
| The bluetooth issues are sort of resolved with the 3.0
| firmware, but the previous firmware versions were pretty awful
| in scenarios where you turn the keyboards off and the pairing
| between halves becomes an absolute nightmare.
|
| With that being said, while Kinesis' own firmware for their
| keyboards (SmartSet) has gotten a lot better over the years, it
| still doesn't really come close to ZMK or QMK. To me the
| functionality of the firmware trumps the occasional reliability
| issues of the bluetooth.
|
| I just hate that they pushed all customization to a third
| party. I got another set of blank PCBs for my Kinesis Advantage
| 2 by emailing Kinesis support (which is fantastic, by the way)
| and paying roughly 100 bucks for them. Now they send you to
| upgradekeyboards who are expensive and have massive lead times
| when I just want some PCBs so I can replace the gateron browns
| in my keyboard without having to desolder everything.
| danieldk wrote:
| Are they solved? I still see a lot of reports of people with
| issues with ZMK 3 on the 360 Pro. Someone who does switch
| replacements for the KA2/360 said that there is a design
| error in the 360 Pro, where on one of the halves the key well
| flex cable runs through the Bluetooth antenna clearance area.
| This also explains the high variance: how much the issue
| affects you depends on how the flex cable happens to be
| oriented in your unit.
|
| But if the connectivity issues are indeed caused by this, the
| only real solution is a new hardware revision.
| tymm wrote:
| I haven't had any bluetooth connectivity issues with the
| 360 Pro since ZMK 3.
| no_wizard wrote:
| I know I need one. I have an Alice layout keyboard (think
| Microsoft ergonomic keyboard) and it helps but I know a fully
| ergonomic keyboard that I can tent is in my future eventually.
|
| Anyone have tips on getting up to speed with a new keyboard? My
| productivity drops dramatically every time I've tried it. Last
| time with a Kinesis FreeStyle and I just wasn't adjusting fast
| enough.
|
| I'll take tips on how to adopt an ergonomic mouse too
| wesapien wrote:
| Just do it and don't look back. The night I ordered the
| Glove80, I almost bought an Alice in Amazon but I got the one I
| really want. Half measures might have given me buyers remorse.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| The thing is with Alice you can easily get hot-swappable
| board with different switches and keycap profiles and it
| costs less than $200.
|
| While I have been eyeing these "cup" style keyboards for
| years, I feel very hesitant dropping $400 on a keyboard when
| my Alice is "fine".
|
| Maybe you are right that Alice is a half measure and going
| full hog is the way, but I could also be spending $400 on a
| keyboard and another $100 on shipping on import tax just to
| end up with a keyboard I don't use.
| wesapien wrote:
| I did think about it being non-hotswappable but it was a
| non-factor since I'm optimizing for ergonomics. I already
| knew I want linear switches and the lower force which was
| Choc Pro Reds. I don't like the other switch types after
| trying other keyboards.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| For me the first switches I bought felt mushy. You could
| argue I didn't do my research, but you can end in same
| place with this Glove, should I get the normal Reds or
| the Red Pros? Maybe I would like the tactility of the
| Browns better? Then again what is the point of having a
| mechanical keyboard without _THONC_ so maybe Whites aren
| 't that bad?
|
| With hot-swap you can just buy a set and if you don't
| love it you don't need to buy a whole another keyboard.
|
| But I do get that some people know exactly what they
| want, but I often need couple tries before I get what I
| like.
| rgoulter wrote:
| With the Kailh Choc switches, I wouldn't bother with
| anything other than linear. -- The tactile on Kailh choc
| is very lame; the 'clicky' sounds like insects crawling,
| and isn't all that satisfying.
|
| (For MX style, I do prefer clicky or tactile).
| wesapien wrote:
| It boils down to knowing what you really want and what
| your priorities are. I owned the same mech keyboard for a
| decade now. I've only tried other types of switches a
| handful of times.
| wesapien wrote:
| Browns are apparently the best (most) selling switch
| type.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| But also the most memed by the mechanical keyboard
| community. Although I do think they are a good compromise
| for open office use, but personally I prefer more
| "click/thonk"
| danieldk wrote:
| This is why there should be keyboard renting service. If
| I'm not mistaken, you could rent the Maltron keyboard in
| the old days.
| bartvk wrote:
| Isn't the Kinesis Freestyle almost exactly like a normal
| keyboard, except you can move the halves apart if you wish?
| What is there to adjust?
| nottorp wrote:
| > For over 10 years or so, I primarily used Apple keyboards
|
| Oh, there's your reason right there. As an Apple user, I'd never
| try and do my programming on their keyboards.
| [deleted]
| czei002 wrote:
| Got excited about the function keys but unfortunately the Glove80
| isn't a replacement for my Kinesis Advantage. I really dislike a
| battery powered keyboard, plugging in a cable into my laptop in
| the morning is something that never bothered me. However, having
| a failing keyboard/mouse in the middle of some work really annoys
| me. Maybe I am wrong but aren't two movable parts a bit annoying
| as well? My keyboard gets moved on my desk quite a bit and
| repositioning two moving parts sounds quite tedious...
| danieldk wrote:
| _However, having a failing keyboard /mouse in the middle of
| some work really annoys me._
|
| Do you mean failing because the battery is empty? Why not hook
| it up then and power it through USB? There are handy split
| cables with which you can hook up both halves in one go. Some
| people even disconnect the batteries.
|
| _Maybe I am wrong but aren 't two movable parts a bit annoying
| as well? My keyboard gets moved on my desk quite a bit and
| repositioning two moving parts sounds quite tedious..._
|
| Hasn't been an issue for me. But you could always fix the
| distance in some way (3D printed tool, measure the distance and
| cut out some plastic/papes, etc.). Personally I just put my
| arms how I find them comfortable and then position the halves
| to align with that. Takes maybe five seconds.
|
| Compared to the Advantage2, I use a slightly wider separation
| distance, so it's more comfortable (though the KA2 distance was
| still ok-ish for me).
| yyt88 wrote:
| I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right
| corner of the solution space. What about targetted exercise of
| involved muscle groups and regular breaks to stretch and relax
| the tendons/joints/muscles/...?
|
| I mean, with our societies sedentary life style, surely
| exacerbated by programmers sitting for 10+ hours a day, I'm a bit
| doubtful that moving _even less_ is the answer. What about doing
| a few simple exercises regularly in breaks and evaluate?
| Obviously the standard Apple keyboard has terrible ergonomics,
| but something slightly more reasonable could already do the
| trick..
| rewmie wrote:
| > I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the
| right corner of the solution space.
|
| I don't think your question comes from the right corner of the
| problem space to begin with.
|
| If you have a class of products which are linked with health
| problems in a subset of the population, and another set of
| problems that mitigate or eliminate said health problems in
| that subset of the population, then why should we complain
| about the products that are designed explicitly to protect your
| health?
|
| And think about it: it your keyboard is causing health
| problems, why are you exploring solutions that involve
| perpetuating the root cause of your problem?
| dharmab wrote:
| It's not either or. I switched to ErgoDox after I broke my
| wrist years ago. Even with surgery, OT and exercise, regular
| keyboards don't feel comfortable anymore for more than a few
| minutes at a time. (I also had to switch my wristwatch to the
| other hand.)
| XenophileJKO wrote:
| Still highly recommend the fully contoured options. I have 2
| Advantage, an ErgoDox, and a custom built split contoured
| similar to Advantage 360.
|
| The contouring significantly lowers the movement for your
| fingers.
| dharmab wrote:
| stretching my fingers is actually good for my injury, I do
| stretching exercises when I have breaks
| lacrimacida wrote:
| The regular standard keyboard hasn't been a limitation to me in
| any way, I prefer mechanical keyboards as they feel slightly
| better but I never felt the desire to try a different layout
| keyboard. However, Im lucky that I don't have RSI and that I
| don't have to type so much so as to justify the effort of a
| better setup. So keep in mind, while some seek perfection for
| their own setup others are looking for a solution to a medical
| sort of problem, and that usually doesn't have much to do with
| doing sports and taking breaks, once RSI becomes a problem,
| it's no fun..
| danieldk wrote:
| That's the thing, you don't have issues until you have them.
| And then you wish that you cared earlier.
|
| In hindsight I with I'd gotten that adjustable desk and
| (then) Kinesis Advantage ten years ago. But then I thought
| it's a waste of money and I'm doing fine with my Apple
| keyboard.
| yyt88 wrote:
| In hindsight, would it have helped you as well doing
| targeted exercising?
|
| It's understandable that a tech community immediately turns
| to tech as a solution to problems, but it may not be the
| best solution, or at least not the only one available.
| danieldk wrote:
| I have been doing targeted exercising for a longer
| period. It helped, but didn't solve my issues.
|
| I believe in a multi-faceted approach. Exercises are
| great, even necessary. But avoiding pronation in the
| other 55 minutes of an hour, letting the blood flow, is
| also useful.
|
| Why should it just be one thing?
| yyt88 wrote:
| > Why should it just be one thing?
|
| I have not suggested that. Quite the opposite. Let's not
| make gadgets be the only thing that matters, even though
| it may be more fun to geek out on key alignment.
| danieldk wrote:
| You are fighting a strawman. No one said that gadgets are
| the only thing that matters. Most people who had hand/arm
| issues and use ergo keyboards will tell you to: go to a
| doctor first, then get a good chair and desk, do regular
| exercises, and maybe then get an ergo keyboard.
|
| I have been in the MoErgo Discord for a while. When
| someone new comes in looking to buy a keyboard because
| they have wrist/hand/arm pains, the first advise
| consistently: go see a doctor.
| wesapien wrote:
| The split allows you to open up your shoulders and straight end
| your wrists. Tenting or tilting does make it even more
| comfortable because it gets closer to a more vertical
| (handshake) position. I agree with you that movement, rest, and
| stretching is key. Staying too long in the same position is not
| good.
| yyt88 wrote:
| Exactly my point. The Segway(tm) is also a great way to avoid
| sitting all day, but perhaps taking a walk is even better.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| While ergonomic keyboards are big part of some peoples fight
| against RSI, for many more using them is about comfort. After
| you get used to having tilted keyboard going back to normal one
| just feels tight and uncomfortable.
|
| Also for me big part about customizing your tools is exactly
| that - you get to customize your tools. I type professionally
| so it is insane to me when I see my colleagues working on some
| random laptop keyboard and screen day after day when they could
| spend couple hundred bucks on a nice quality keyboard and large
| screen or two and make their work more enjoyable.
| sesm wrote:
| There is a trade-off between mobility and ergonomics. For
| some people mobility is more important for various reasons.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| Maybe, but when they sit next to me for 8 hours that
| argument kind a falls off.
|
| I am sure there are exceptions to this, but from my
| experience these people also aren't nearly as productive as
| people who have usable, comfortable setups
| yyt88 wrote:
| "Insane"? I type professionally too. On my laptop, in a
| myriad different settings. Sometimes in a coffee shop,
| sometimes on a quiet bench in a hallway, sometimes at home on
| my sofa, my kitchen table, and sometimes at my desk. I enjoy
| every minute of it and I'm having a blast. 11 years and
| counting.
|
| If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't mean it won't for
| anybody else. It's surely not "insane".
| henrik_w wrote:
| I worked for 14 years, coding almost every day, before I
| started feeling pain in my arms. Took quite a while to get
| better. Not saying it will happen to you (people are
| different), but in my case I think the problems built up
| over years of working with poor ergonomics. My best advice
| is to take it seriously if you do start feeling any pain.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Your experience at age 30-ish might not be the same at
| 40-ish.
|
| I don't know myself, as I've not reached 40, but I'll take
| the advice of those that have and use the appropriate tool
| in the recommended way.
| yyt88 wrote:
| I'm mid-50, thanks for asking. I've had a military
| carreer before doing more desk type of work.
|
| This was about keyboards, but sure, we can talk about
| screen real etate too. It can be great, but it can
| introduce more distractions too. Having a single laptop
| screen in front of you makes you focus on what matters
| most. Those chat and mail windows can stay hidden until I
| need them and opt to get distracted. Others may see that
| differently, and that's ok.
| [deleted]
| layer8 wrote:
| 11 years isn't that long. Serious problems started for me
| after about 20 years.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| All I read is: "I have been a professional carpenter for a
| decade and sharp knife is all I use. I use it for floors,
| chairs, tables, and all. If it doesn't work for you then
| don't use it"
|
| Of course I _can_ work with a tiny laptop screen and
| keyboard, but I choose to actually have a pleasurable
| experience when I work.
| manuelmoreale wrote:
| Maybe laptop and tiny screen is pleasurable to them? I'm
| currently on a big 4K monitor with external keyboard and
| all that and I'll probably go back coding on a laptop
| because for some reason the more compact experience is a
| lot more enjoyable for me. We're all different after all
| and that's ok
| yyt88 wrote:
| And you call those "insane" who don't agree.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| Yes. Of course not meaning actually mental illness, but
| their values feel so out of wack it doesn't make sense
| ashbee wrote:
| Is it possible you've taken more from that single word than
| was intended?
|
| GP said "insane _to me_ ". I understood this as a
| colloquial expression of disbelief or surprise rather than
| an actual accusation of insanity.
|
| E.g. I might say it's insane to me that anyone likes
| Brussels sprouts. The state of mind of someone who could
| hold such a position is so alien to me as to be comparable
| to insanity.
| atoav wrote:
| Sometimes switching positions dynamically is less straining
| than staying in the same (ergonomic) position forever, which
| is why most ergonomic chairs are about dynamic sitting.
|
| But no amount of dynamic sitting and no ergonomic chair will
| make the bad influence of sitting go away -- this can only be
| dealt with excercise, breaks and stretching. And every
| ergonomic chair can be misused. A person with good habits can
| sit healthy on a rock, a person with bad habits can sit
| unhealthy on a custom made ergonomic chair.
|
| The same is true for the hands. As a life-long multi-
| instrumentalist with trained hands and fingers I could
| totally see someone with a laptop and the right habits
| ultimatly acting healthier as someone with the wrong habits
| and the best ergonomic keyboard that exists for them.
|
| And this is the truth: Everything that involves the human
| motor system is never just about the objects we interact
| with, but always also to a major degree _how_ we interact
| with them. My grand-grandmother that worked in her garden
| with 109 didn 't have any ergonomic tools (as they didn't
| exist), but all the right habits. Habits are always more
| important than tools.
| nextlevelwizard wrote:
| Which is why RSI averse people recommend having multiple
| different input devices.
|
| I do not suffer from RSI, but I have different keyboards
| for different things.
| danieldk wrote:
| That's a good question. As I get older, I've found that I
| should do all of them: regular exercises, good chair, height-
| adjustable desk, and a good ergo keyboard.
|
| Even though my wrist issues have disappeared, I wish I could
| tell the younger me, who could type all day on a grey slab
| without breaks on a crappy chair, to care about ergonomics and
| improve along all these dimensions.
| Isognoviastoma wrote:
| Keycap displays could be used to shuffle letters, thus prevent
| touch typing and force neck moves.
| danieldk wrote:
| Or just put on blanks.
| Cannabat wrote:
| I'm not sure if taking regular breaks and doing exercises can
| fully mitigate the RSI and discomfort/pain that drives many to
| use ergonomic keyboards and input devices.
|
| Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or two
| of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse. It doesn't matter if
| I've spent the previous 3 months offline doing yoga (getting
| very thorough full-body movement) or totally absorbed in some
| computer-y project - "normal" input devices hurt! My shoulders
| and back are more tolerant, but eventually they start to ache
| too.
|
| It's likely I didn't take care of myself properly earlier in
| life, but using a split keyboard and tilted thumb-operated
| trackball mean I can continue coding without nerve pain.
|
| To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to
| keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful
| position.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or
| two of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse.
|
| IME, what has worked for me is to make the interval of the
| "regular breaks" on the order of one hour. The break isn't
| much, just get up, grab a glass of water or whatever, moving
| my arms and wrists a bit, then sit back down.
|
| > To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to
| keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful
| position.
|
| I fully agree with this.
|
| The only hardware issue that couldn't be solved with this
| approach and required a new keyboard was the wrists-angled-up
| situation imposed by a 2012-era Apple keyboard (don't know if
| they've evolved since).
|
| I've always refused to type for longer than a few minutes on
| keyboards that don't at least lay flat on the table. And for
| the keyboards I use every day (when sitting at my home or
| work desk) I've insisted on keyboards with a wrist rest and
| no number pad. I have a TKL one at home, and I think even
| that may be too large. My "75%" (laptop style, with the
| arrows under Enter and HOME / END / etc in a column to the
| right of Enter) is perfect.
| goodpoint wrote:
| The ergonomic aspect helps a bit but regular exercise and good
| posture is 1000 times more important. Ask any physiotherapist.
|
| From a health pov mechanical keys are just an expensive
| gimmick.
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