[HN Gopher] HTML Design Principles (2007)
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HTML Design Principles (2007)
Author : kosasbest
Score : 84 points
Date : 2023-09-03 15:08 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.w3.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.w3.org)
| shadowfacts wrote:
| The whole document is good, but in particular, my favorite part
| (that I reference not infrequently in conversations) is the
| priority of constituencies:
|
| > In case of conflict, consider users over authors over
| implementors over specifiers over theoretical purity.
| butterNaN wrote:
| Seems like a good general advice in most cases
| doublerabbit wrote:
| I'm so bored of the "Do not Reinvent the Wheel" line.
|
| Why? I want it to be my wheel, what is wrong with reinventing the
| wheel?
|
| Inventing creates innovation and innovation sparks creativity and
| that's what programming is all about; creating. So if you don't
| your stuck with someone's else invention, that's no fun. Why
| should I use their invention and not mine?
|
| If it makes the spec, what's the issue?
| presidentender wrote:
| If you're in the business of wheels, or if it is a hobby, make
| wheels.
|
| If you are in the business of carts, buy wheels.
|
| If you are in the business of transportation, buy carts.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| > If you are in the business of carts, buy wheels.
|
| I just don't agree with that logic. If you make your own
| carts, innovating your own wheels will yield cheaper costs in
| the long run. You have a new design and it could be something
| better. In conjunction you can than produce your own cart to
| that better design.
|
| Sure your not a wheel business, so you don't sell your wheels
| as that's not your specialty but you can now provide your own
| wheels for your own carts.
|
| Otherwise your vendor-locked to that manufacturer. And what
| then if they decide to stop selling the wheels or carts that
| you rely on, or increase the prices?
|
| You don't have Amazon (Cart) selling Google's Infrastructure
| (Wheels).
| dahdum wrote:
| Innovating your own wheels to sell carts requires capital
| investment, time, effort, and risk. The saying is a rehash
| of common advice to focus on core competencies and not
| overextend.
|
| If I sold, or even manufactured carts, I would not be eager
| to enter the enormous, competitive, highly commoditized,
| and mature wheel market. It sounds like a real battle to
| get production costs even on par with wholesale, lacking
| all the economies of scale, experience, and supply chain
| agreements the major manufacturers have.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| Cause and effect. Due to of the rehash and sell-out as by
| not re-inventing the wheel; in return has caused the
| effect as you've mentioned above.
|
| Where many had the opportunity to take the risk, didn't.
| So now we live in the world where it's either A or B.
|
| And I'm fed up to the point where my business, self-
| funded is re-inventing the wheel regardless of the risks.
|
| Besides the point, innovation has been stifled because of
| no reinvention.
| lwhi wrote:
| It's not easy to do everything well .. and each stage of
| the process requires expertise.
|
| It's fairly good logic.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| Who says? Its flawed logic that for example makes the
| internet or any product cheap and stale.
|
| This era of mobile phones is a good example, when
| providers created their own device before selling out to
| Android, it was a fantastical place. Now when choosing a
| phone all you have is a different same rectangle with the
| same OS.
|
| If you hire the expertise, you add that in to cost factor
| of your company. Or you set a budget and in creating your
| own variant while you sell your first.
|
| I open a cookie shop. I sell pre-made cookies that taste
| amazing and make customers happy.
|
| You hire the kitchen staff to make your own cookies, not
| as good and they don't sell as well.
|
| You keep going and keep growing the quality as you slow
| down selling the amazing cookies.
|
| Because as an scenario, say the company who's providing
| you with amazing cookie changes their recipe for budget
| cuts and now they're now not selling as good as before,
| bland and sickly. You lose sales and by not reinventing
| the cookie you lose quality, rep and profits.
|
| I'm just amazed no one can give me a good case to why
| not. Innovation is what's missing from this world.
| vore wrote:
| If you're selling cookies, are you going to be milling
| your own flour from self-grown wheat? The original post
| was just saying at some point you are drawing a line
| between what you consider to be your competency versus
| what is not.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| Regardless to how stubborn it makes to the comment, Yes.
| I don't see why not. There is no versus to be had. We are
| always competing, it doesn't have too. As in the end all
| that really matters is making the consumer,customer, end
| result happy.
|
| By milling the raw grain, you can then make your own
| machine. With that machine reduces the production costs.
| It's not a task that can happen overnight.
|
| But to own a piece of land and to make raw produce from
| that isn't trivial.
| vore wrote:
| I agree that you can always own more of the vertical to
| potentially make the customer happier, but you will
| always reach the point of diminishing returns. How much
| happier will your customer be with your homegrown flour
| versus King Arthur flour you picked up at the store? Is
| the cost (money _and_ time) worth the possible marginal
| increase in happiness? If you manufacture your own
| machine, does the capital expenditure of doing so even
| offset operational expenditure over how long you even
| plan to be making cookies?
|
| Running a business is not about innovating at all costs
| at all times, it's about using what time and money you
| have on hand to optimize customer satisfaction. Whether
| it's off-the-shelf wheels for carts or grinding your own
| flour, you have to draw the line somewhere otherwise you
| are just optimizing for some theoretical optimum. Maybe
| when you have some more slack in the budget it's time to
| think about reinventing the wheel, but doing so at the
| get-go is already losing sight of the customer.
| madeofpalk wrote:
| For the user, the problem is if you reinvent the wheel poorly.
| Remember all those terrible 'scroll jacking' website?
|
| The bar to reinvent the wheel has to be high. You should have
| significant value to add, and you've got to re-implement all
| the other behavior users expect.
| eimrine wrote:
| Text areas, scroll bars, select inputs.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Select inputs are a decent example of why people reinvent
| things. There's no native combobox type input; html5 gave us
| list input + datalist, but no multiple selection. If
| anything, the select element has been a perfect example of a
| bad interface design: it is extremely difficult to use with
| large lists, but the lack of native combobox has had people
| reinventing the select input for years.
|
| Number inputs have always been a vile thing to work with, as
| is the "required" attribute.
| kdkirsch wrote:
| When posting old pages/articles it may help if the OP explained
| why they are sharing on HN. Is there a particular question it
| answers? Is there some development that has made the article more
| or less useful/accurate? A comment would help guide additional
| comments.
| layer8 wrote:
| The reason why the submitter found it interesting doesn't need
| to be the same as why the upvoters found it interesting.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| I wholeheartedly agree, but I do appreciate it when
| submitters leave a top-level comment alongside the
| submission. There's no need for it to be special in any way,
| but it can help seed discussion IMO.
| chefandy wrote:
| I see most internet forums as discussion groups where posts
| start out as invitations to conversation. However, I see HN
| more like a physical bulletin board in a workplace break room
| where people post whatever, whenever, and others passively
| view, interact with, or discuss it as they see fit.
| moritzwarhier wrote:
| I actually like this, also in cases where users sometimes post
| a submission that relates to some previous discussion, but does
| not _require_ the context of said discussion but are
| interesting on their own
| paulddraper wrote:
| Typically on HN people talk about whatever they want, no set
| agenda.
| moritzwarhier wrote:
| I actually like this, also in cases where users sometimes post
| a submission that relates to some previous discussion, but does
| not _require_ the context of said discussion to be interesting.
| eimrine wrote:
| Internet was a heaven in 2007.
| tannhaeuser wrote:
| Then HTML5 and Google/Chrome devs taking over the Internet
| happened.
| calebegg wrote:
| I don't disagree with you but I did find the linked article
| very interesting to read absent any context.
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