[HN Gopher] UTM - Virtual Machines for iOS and macOS
___________________________________________________________________
UTM - Virtual Machines for iOS and macOS
Author : eiiot
Score : 306 points
Date : 2023-08-31 06:53 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| tech5000 wrote:
| I think what would be amazing would be if one day it is possible
| to run macOS on an Apple Silicon iPad. This seems like it would
| be something that many people would want, so I guess there are
| technical issues preventing this. In another thread, the absence
| of JIT support has been mentioned for example.
| mbreese wrote:
| Memory is another issue. There isn't much extra TAM on the
| iPad. I ran UTM in my iPad Pro once and crashed it when trying
| to use a VM with too much RAM.
| sam_goody wrote:
| Is there a way to use Vagrant with UTM?
| ansonhoyt wrote:
| There's an open issue [1]. A scripting interface has since been
| added [2], and updated [3], so there's progress.
|
| [1] https://github.com/hashicorp/vagrant/issues/12518
|
| [2]
| https://github.com/hashicorp/vagrant/issues/12518#issuecomme...
|
| [3]
| https://github.com/hashicorp/vagrant/issues/12518#issuecomme...
| npad wrote:
| If you're running VMs on Mac for a development environment what
| you want is OrbStack: https://orbstack.dev/
| stephenr wrote:
| For a tool tooting its own horn with claims like the one below,
| the lack of vagrant support is glaring.
|
| > No matter the use case, OrbStack has you covered with
| features that simplify your workflow and help you move faster.
| kdrag0n wrote:
| There's a feature request for Vagrant support:
| https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/105
|
| Hasn't been that common of a request, and honestly I've never
| used Vagrant so not familiar with its benefits. People are
| already using OrbStack machines and its "orb" command to
| build dev envs with setup scripts, and cloud-init support
| will also be added:
| https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/38
|
| I think cloud-init will be more useful since it's already
| widely used for setting up servers, whereas Vagrant is only
| for dev envs, but correct me if I'm wrong.
| 00deadbeef wrote:
| Plenty of companies use Vagrant. OrbStack's pricing is
| almost as much as an annual Parallels license for each of
| our devs. Most places using Vagrant will be using
| VirtualBox on Intel, or Parallels on Apple Silicon. So you
| haven't seen many requests because Vagrant users already
| have a solution and OrbStack wouldn't save enough money to
| ever switch to it.
| sam_goody wrote:
| We looked at Orbstack, saw that there is no Vagrant
| support, and moved on.
|
| I'll bet there are many other companies with a similar
| thought.
|
| Orb stack is too young to warrant piling on the tickets, vs
| just assuming it is immature.
| kdrag0n wrote:
| Fair. Another part of it is that I'm more focused on
| containers at the moment.
| stephenr wrote:
| As much as _I_ think you should support Vagrant in your
| tool, that isn 't the point I was making - whether it's
| worth supporting is something you need to decide for
| yourself.
|
| The point I was making is this: Your claim is
|
| > No matter the use case, OrbStack has you covered with
| features
|
| But you don't support a common, cross-platform tool that's
| been around for ages and is used for managing developer
| environments - including running containers.
| denkmoon wrote:
| Can I make complex network setups with this? My biggest
| grievance with UTM is that I can only have 1 network interface
| on a VM.
| kdrag0n wrote:
| Can you give an example? OrbStack currently sets up an IPv4+6
| interface linked to a "unified bridge" with both the macOS
| host and other Linux machines on it, plus NAT to the outside
| world: https://docs.orbstack.dev/machines/network
|
| You're also free to create your own interfaces on the Linux
| side, of course.
| felixgallo wrote:
| Note that the product will be $8 per dev per month for
| commercial use once beta concludes.
| mrweasel wrote:
| Why does everything needs to be a subscription? I don't mind
| paying, but I'm not signing up of yet another subscription.
| kdrag0n wrote:
| I get it -- subscriptions suck, but I've explained why in
| the "Why a subscription?" box here:
| https://docs.orbstack.dev/faq#free
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Appreciate the transparency. Fwiw, I don't understand
| from the FAQ what's your opposition to jetbrains model,
| which has been universally praised for its friendly
| compromise of user vs developer needs. As the other
| commenter mentioned, a) subscriptions get too many and b)
| subscription model means I have to keep paying forever.
| It makes it crystal clear I am not buying and I am not
| owning my tool.
|
| (that being said, I always appreciate and recognize the
| freedom of producer to charge whatever model they choose
| to, there's no moral qualms here:)
| kdrag0n wrote:
| And maybe it is! We'll have to see how this all works
| out. I could very well be wrong about that.
|
| In my opinion, JetBrains' perpetual fallback model is
| more of a psychological thing than something you'd
| actually utilize -- at least I'd never consider staying
| on an old version myself, but maybe that's just me.
|
| I've also talked to other devs, who mentioned that users
| staying on ancient versions because they don't want to
| pay again can be a major support burden.
|
| One thing worth considering is that I plan to offer
| (optional) cloud services integrated into the app.
|
| OrbStack is also relatively high-maintenance due to all
| the components it bundles.
| veidr wrote:
| It's not that, it's like others have said up the thread -
| the mental overhead of subscriptions is super annoying.
| (Sure, not if it was the only subscription you have, but
| it _isn 't_.)
|
| I let Jetbrains lapse a lot. But certainly not when I am
| actively using it. If I start using it regularly again
| (which I do, intermittently over the years) then I
| subscribe again.
|
| But the thing is, that also solves the elephant in the
| room that devs don't want to talk about: a huge portion
| of subscription revenues comes from providing absolutely
| no value at all to customers. It's people paying for a
| subscription, being too busy to notice the charges -- or
| worse, too busy to figure out how to cancel them even
| thought they _do_ notice, and mean to.
|
| And devs can claim this is ethical, because they
| disclosed the subscription recurrence, and the
| responsibility lies with the customer to track all their
| subscriptions diligently, across all their platforms and
| billing methods, and cancel them whenever they stop using
| them.
|
| And some people do that. But most do not.
|
| So the other way to look at it is that subscription
| software models are just a scam. A way to exploit people
| who lack the organization, or have two jobs and kids, or
| whatever -- and get money out of them without providing
| any value at all. For months, or even years in many
| cases. Of course it is great for your bottom line. But is
| it ethical? Even if you think it is, is it a cool thing
| to do?
|
| I think both arguments make sense. It is debatable.
|
| But personally, I would only want to do subscription
| billing if I had some means (perhaps via opt-in
| telemetry) to automatically detect when the product
| hasn't been used at all during the billing period, and
| not charge anything in those cases.
| traceroute66 wrote:
| > but I've explained why in the "Why a subscription?" box
| here
|
| No you haven't, you've just regurgitated the usual
| argument made by people peddling subscriptions.
|
| Its always the same old story, and charities do the same
| thing when seeking donation subscriptions...
|
| The person selling the subscription says "oh, but its
| only $8 a month that's only half a Starbucks coffee"
|
| Meanwhile, the _REALITY_ for the person on the receiving
| end of the salesdroid is always the same .... "your sub
| is not the only thing going on with my life bud".
|
| And its _very_ true in IT, sub to this for $x, sub to
| that for $y, sub to that for $z, and soon enough you are
| "talking real money" as the old saying goes. And then if
| you are expecting the company to pay for an employee then
| that adds up exponentially in-line with the number of
| employees.
|
| So, yeah, subscriptions suck ... for a real and valid
| reason.
| rnk wrote:
| agree with comments but a starbucks coffee is not $16.
| jsight wrote:
| TBH, I had the same issue with nestbox. I'd love to have
| something like that, but monthly_cost*36 months is a lot
| of money!
| mrweasel wrote:
| Fair, I should have found that.
|
| Personally I disagree with the "Major version upgrades".
| To me that what I want, you release a product, I buy it
| knowing what it contains and what it does. My
| expectations are that I get security fixes for some
| period of time, but other than that the "no new features"
| is a feature all on its own.
|
| I might be in the minority, but I'd pay $150 up front,
| rather than a $8 per month, knowing full well that I
| might need to pay another $100 the next time macOS is
| updated. It's not the money as much as it is the mental
| overhead of yet another subscription.
|
| Customers need to be able to keep track of their
| subscriptions and after four or five that's it, you lose
| track and the money just disappear out of your account
| every month. Say that: Well the App Store lists all your
| subscriptions... is missing the point, because not all of
| my subscriptions are going to be centrally managed by
| Apple, Google or some one else. Again, it might just be
| me, but I believe that companies are losing out on sales
| because they're not offering straight up purchases.
| There's just no way to track sales lost because of it, so
| it's not on anyone's radar.
|
| Edit: I checked the pricing on VMWare Fusion, it was
| release in 2020, it might have been cheaper on release,
| but let's assume it's not, that's $199 up front, I'd
| still be able to us it and I'm saving money. I can then
| upgrade it for $99, but I don't have to, unless I also
| upgrade my laptop to an M-series. So it's cheaper for me
| to buy an objectively better product. I might even get a
| discount if I buy bulk licenses or I'm already a VMWare
| customer. I get why subscriptions are attractive to the
| developers, but they provide no value to the customer.
| portaltonowhere wrote:
| Yup. And given how well it works already and the feature set,
| I'd say it'll be well worth the money.
| 00deadbeef wrote:
| Crazy for what seems to be an alternative GUI for Docker.
| It's almost as much as we pay for Parallels licenses so we
| can use Vagrant on Apple Silicon. There's nothing "slow and
| clunky" about these VMs either.
| kdrag0n wrote:
| I responded down here, but it's much more than an
| "alternative GUI for Docker":
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37335646
|
| Of course, you're free to build your own with a VM and at
| least a couple months of full-time work to get the same
| feature set, just like with Dropbox :) Not saying it's for
| everyone.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| > nothing "slow and clunky"
|
| You obv. haven't experienced the difference.
| kungfufrog wrote:
| Can second this, been loving it since I switched, has been
| great. VMs and Docker in one!
| kdrag0n wrote:
| Great to hear! Quick question for you actually: what's the
| value prop of having VMs and containers in one? I've been
| having a hard time with that from a marketing perspective.
| kungfufrog wrote:
| Less tools and software to keep up to date!
| avhception wrote:
| Looks really interesting, I will try to see whether we can
| benefit from it in our web-dev environments!
| kdrag0n wrote:
| Thanks for mentioning OrbStack! Happy to answer questions as
| the dev.
| alexellisuk wrote:
| Is running a MacOS VM within scope of what you want to build?
| kdrag0n wrote:
| I don't want to say "never" to macOS or Windows VMs, but so
| far my plan is to focus on Linux and its applications
| (containers, Kubernetes, etc.).
| 00deadbeef wrote:
| I visited your site and don't understand why OrbStack is a
| thing. It says it's a replacement for Docker Desktop but how
| is it better?
| kdrag0n wrote:
| The docs have more info: https://docs.orbstack.dev/
|
| And a comparison: https://docs.orbstack.dev/compare/docker-
| desktop
|
| I think you'll find something you like in there :) To name
| a few: Performance, CPU usage/power efficiency, automatic
| domain names for containers, access to volumes and image
| files from macOS, native app, and more.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| It's a few things:
|
| 1) Runs containers / VMs ("linux machines"). Here you get a
| linux instance with access to your complete filesystem
| (everything is mounted), similar to I guess WSL
|
| 2) Full docker compatible + docker-compose
|
| 3) As of this week kubernetes support
|
| Everything is blazing fast to start (think 100-200ms).
| Aside that, there's one thing that's awesome: networking.
|
| Every container gets a unique IP. No more portmapping.
|
| Every containers also gets a unique hostname (+ip) ->
| testapp.orb.local
|
| Every every docker-compose gets a unique subdomain ->
| web.testcompose.orb.local
| notpushkin wrote:
| I'd say Lima and Colima should be enough for most use cases:
|
| https://lima-vm.io/
|
| https://github.com/abiosoft/colima
| fooblat wrote:
| I love UTM.
|
| It works great for my needs. I mostly develop infrastructure
| automation and configuration tooling and I run all my VMs in
| terminal mode. The wide availability of arm64 distros and OSes
| makes this easy.
|
| I also use it to run a tiny pi hole instance when I'm traveling.
| cosmojg wrote:
| What's the advantage of spinning up an entire VM to run a local
| Pi Hole instance instead of just setting up a firewall or using
| a browser blocker like uBlock Origin? I was under the
| impression that spinning up a Pi Hole instance is really only
| necesary if you own devices which don't allow for such things,
| like smart TVs and other internet-connected appliances.
| rpastuszak wrote:
| > I also use it to run a tiny pi hole instance when I'm
| traveling.
|
| That's such a good idea. I used to run one using a raspberry
| pi, which got lost during the house move, so would love to do
| that.
|
| Is is better than running it via Docker, e.g. from the resource
| usage pov? Do you have any good resources/tutorial to share?
|
| PS. In pre-Apple Silicon times I used it to play with old
| versions of Windows, but now DosBox seems like a better choice
| for Win 3.11 or 95.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| May I recommend a Dell Wyse thin client from eBay as a
| replacement for the rPi? They can be had for around $30, and
| they come with an 8GB onboard eMMC storage as well.
| akerr wrote:
| I use this to run pi-hole on Debian on my old Mac mini which also
| hosts our network Time Machine.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| I wish Apple would drop the 2 VM limit for virtualized macOS.
|
| UTM is really nice for running Xcode as a build server, but being
| limited to two VMs sucks. I build lots of software with old macOS
| versions because I still support macOS versions that Apple no
| longer supports.
| Alupis wrote:
| It's amazing the level of abuse the average Apple developer
| tolerates.
|
| There's money to be made on Apple's platforms, to be sure, but
| putting up with nonsense like VM limits and what-not is
| insanity.
|
| I remember a time when it was against the EULA to virtualize
| OSX at all. Finally, perhaps a decade late, Apple grants
| virtualization to the commoners and people rejoiced - Stockholm
| Syndrome-esque.
|
| Apple gets away with this not just because people accept it,
| they welcome it.
|
| Meanwhile, most other platforms bend over backwards to make
| development easy.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| > Apple grants virtualization to the commoners and people
| rejoiced
|
| Nobody rejoiced. Everyone who virtualises macOS complains
| about the limit. It's a shame, they made it so much easier to
| create macOS VMs on M2 (Metal finally just works!!), but then
| they crippled them on purpose (no iCloud, no App Store, max 2
| VMs enforced by the virtualisation framework)
|
| I wonder if you could go after them on anti-competitive
| grounds? I'm pretty sure the machines that Xcode cloud run on
| are not limited to 2 VMs.
| Terretta wrote:
| It's as if Apple's purpose is a "don't make me think" level
| of end user experience and trust, and their assumption is
| engineers will need to invest extra effort to enable that
| priority.
|
| It's not just Apple. Developer-experience focused web
| frameworks make one time creation easier, at the expense of
| users who run it every time. The priority is upside down.
|
| Thankfully, for hardware, wallet-share shows there's money to
| be made from giving users a curated experience at the cost of
| nominal incremental developer effort.
|
| And the resurgence of SSR (new old hotness?) shows the same
| can hold true on the tech stack.
| Alupis wrote:
| It's not mutually exclusive though.
|
| A developer can be allowed to spin up N vm's and Apple can
| still provide an amazing end-user experience.
|
| It's just a EULA thing... there's no technical reason. It's
| "just because".
| newaccount74 wrote:
| They could just sell it as an add-on. I paid a lot of
| money to have more RAM in my machine, I'd pay again to be
| able to use that RAM to run more VMs. (I would of course
| still complain about it)
| phmqk76 wrote:
| It's impressive for what it is. But after noodling around with
| UTM and Fusion, I subscribed to Parallels, and it's on a whole
| different level. I used it years and years ago to emulate x86 on
| PowerPC Macs, and it's the gold standard. Night and day.
| samhuk wrote:
| I used UTM extensively when creating an almost-no-touch tool for
| developers to setup their Macbook devices at the company I work
| for.
|
| There's really no other convenient way to do this. It was awesome
| to be able to run the tool on a fresh MacOS install, test the
| effects, make some changes, then do it all over again with little
| fuss.
|
| Thanks UTM!
| jasoneckert wrote:
| UTM has been a solid hypervisor for me for the past 2 years, and
| it's received several great functionality and feature
| improvements over that time too.
|
| But perhaps my favourite aspect of UTM is that it stands for
| Universal Turing Machine (arguably the best name ever for a
| virtualization product).
| protoman3000 wrote:
| Doesn't have hypervisor on non-jailbroken iOS devices. It's
| really a shame, otherwise I'd had my Linux iPad dream device.
| alberth wrote:
| OpenBSD
|
| Anyone have tips on how to boot OpenBSD with UTM?
| whenlambo wrote:
| What exactly is the problem? I had no problems booting FreeBSD.
| I don't think OpenBSD is any different.
| alberth wrote:
| You mind sharing the instruction guide to how you installed
| FreeBSD within UTM on Apple Silicon.
|
| OpenBSD won't even initialize on UTM/AppleSilicon for me.
| CharlesW wrote:
| This is a great reminder for me to get off the Parallels "Give me
| $70 every year for absolutely nothing" train. Thank you _@eliot_!
|
| Has anyone found a reasonably painless way to migrate their disk
| images from Parallels to UTM?
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| > absolutely nothing
|
| They do release new versions that maintain compatibility with
| the latest versions of macOS, and Parallels Tools updates that
| maintain compatibility with the latest versions of Windows and
| Linux.
|
| So not _nothing_... but I agree $70 /year is a bit much for
| maintenance updates.
| CharlesW wrote:
| > _Has anyone found a reasonably painless way to migrate their
| disk images from Parallels to UTM?_
|
| These instructions may do the trick:
| https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/issues/4927#issuecomment-16294...
| COMMENT___ wrote:
| Besides running Windows 11 VM, I use UTM to run Windows 98 on
| ARM-based MacBook. Great for playing old games on modern Mac
| devices.
| JaggerJo wrote:
| Used this to create a Debian VM on my M2 Mac mini. Works great.
| walthamstow wrote:
| With a desktop env? I have only been able to get terminal
| environments working on my M1 MBP
| hrrsn wrote:
| Yes, the process is the same as any other Linux desktop
| environment.
|
| There are a bunch of VM images you can download at
| https://mac.getutm.app/gallery/
| sneak wrote:
| What settings are you using to get 3d acceleration working with
| full panel resolution? I've tried dozens of settings/image
| combinations trying to get this to "work great" and have
| failed.
| _silicon wrote:
| Too bad jit isn't working on iOS 17 because of the new
| personalized developer disk images for debugging.
| Transpire7487 wrote:
| UTM is great for basic stuff but performance has been abysmal so
| not really viable as a workhorse in my day to day.
|
| Nothing beats Parallels on Mac, worth every penny.
| bpoyner wrote:
| If you're on apple silicon and the VM is x86, I agree the
| performance is abysmal. I'm pretty sure this is just a QEMU
| issue and not really the fault of UTM. If your VM is aarch64,
| the VM performance is amazingly great and I can't recommend UTM
| enough.
| grav wrote:
| I also experienced performance problems with Arch Linux ARM
| through UTM. Parallels seems to perform much better for me.
|
| One issue might be that only OpenGL 2.1 is supported:
| https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/issues/4285
| outcoldman wrote:
| What I don't like about Parallels and VMWare, is that they push
| all of those integrations between OS, like openings Windows from
| Windows in macOS. Or opening some documents from macOS right in
| Windows. I prefer to have VM isolated from my main macOS. So it
| is always going through all configurations and trying to figure
| out what I need to turn off.
| TimTheTinker wrote:
| Parallels has a single option in the Security settings tab:
| "Isolate VM from macOS". It disables all cross-machine
| integrations.
| mavamaarten wrote:
| I have flashbacks from when I had parallels installed, and it
| would constantly try to open any file I double clicked with
| Notepad on Windows.
| markuta wrote:
| I've been using it to run Kali Linux ARM edition for the Pen-200
| course. And it works really well, everything just feels snappy.
| My only grape is the scaling and hi-res screens is less refined
| than for example vm-guest tools from VMware. But these can be
| fixed from the guest vm itself.
| JodieBenitez wrote:
| Someone pointed me to Lima which is a bit like wsl2 for macos:
| https://lima-vm.io
|
| Not sure what is used underneath but it worked great for me.
| lloeki wrote:
| Either QEMU or Virtualization.framework, pickable on vm
| creation.
|
| colima is a layer upon lima that sets up a VM the easy way
| docker-machine/boot2docker style.
| chkhd wrote:
| UTM is great, and once snapshot capability is added [1] it will
| become my default recommendation for sure. Until then sticking
| with Parallels. NOTE: An unofficial snapshot manager exists [2].
|
| 1: https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/issues/5484
|
| 2: https://github.com/Metamogul/UTM-Snapshot-Manager
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| As someone who would always practice the habit of doing
| development within VMs as opposed to my actual system for a
| number of reasons, I tried UTM and played with it for a long
| time to host ARM64 Linux VMs on my M1 Macbook Pro, however the
| file sharing issues plagued me - with the most common problem
| being, having my shared folders disappear suddenly from the
| guest VMs, and having to do workarounds to get them back, quite
| often. Next, I tried VMWare Fusion, but it has the same
| problem. After that I tried Parallels, which seemed too
| expensive, so I jumped to Lima.
|
| I am glad to have found Lima - it also is based on QEMU and
| made bringing up linux VMs very easy and provided network
| sharing out of the box. Now all my development lies within
| these Lima VMs and I am happy to report I never had a problem.
| I know I could do display forwarding if needed but I am good
| with these headless instances for now (thanks to VSCode).
| naikrovek wrote:
| this seems like a perfect use case for NFS. zero network
| problems to mess with anything (because it's a virtual
| network between host and VM), it's very easy to set up, and
| it should be quite fast indeed. 9p would be another option, I
| suppose, though I don't know of any 9p servers for MacOS.
| dingi wrote:
| I've been using a similar setup for a while now. I just use
| SFTP for file sharing. Never bothered to try UTM's file
| sharing feature.
| princevegeta89 wrote:
| While this is a good alternative, some tools like git
| clients and other things that I run on the host system
| can't be worked out via SFTP
| learn_more wrote:
| Use sshfs.
| naikrovek wrote:
| APFS supports copy on write snapshots today, for any filetype.
| I would think that snapshot features in UTM would simply wrap
| that functionality.
|
| as simple as `cp -c`
|
| though if that were true, I guess it would be implemented
| already.
| greggsy wrote:
| Does it support TPM emulation, and ansible/vagrabt?
| galleywest200 wrote:
| Looks like they added TPM just last month:
| https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/issues/3082
| plorkyeran wrote:
| Hah, I was going to say that I've successfully faked a limited
| form of snapshots using clonefile, and then turns out that's
| what the implementation-in-progress is doing.
| l72 wrote:
| Work issued me an M1 MacBook Pro, but all my development is under
| Linux. Linux has been my preferred environment since the late
| 90s. While I find the MacBook Pro hardware to be nice, I find
| macos clumsy and frustrating, and my productivity severely drops.
|
| So, I run Fedora (aarch64) under UTM full screen. It works
| acceptably well, and I often forget I'm on a mac.
|
| I just wish macos would get out of the way, and not sometimes
| knock you out of full screen mode.
| kevstev wrote:
| What specifically makes your productivity drop? I find having a
| terminal running bash on my mac is more or less same/same as
| being in linux. Occasionally the utils will not support a cli
| argument I am used to, but that's more of a versioning issue
| than a mac/linux issue, and one I have seen many times in my
| career sometimes just moving between boxes within a company.
|
| The biggest headaches, though they aren't that big, is really
| about ARM vs x86, sometimes you will come across a package that
| just isn't supported on ARM, though that is increasingly rare.
| gorgoiler wrote:
| I'm not the OP, but for me I yearned for two things: my
| favourite window manager and a system whose source code was
| easily within reach. I rarely use the latter and the former
| is something I could be coaxed away from over time, but
| really there's little reason to change from a free and open
| system in 2023 when everything works so well.
|
| I make do with being an XPS peasant compared to the beautiful
| rounded rectangles used by my peers on the basis that my
| machine is completely available to me in every way possible
| thanks to _source code_.
| postalrat wrote:
| Any time the file dialog opens in macos my productivity drops
| to 0 for a few minutes while I try to do basic things like go
| up a directory or open my home directory.
| AnonHP wrote:
| I'd suggest that you lookup and learn keyboard shortcuts.
| Going up a directory is Cmd + Up Arrow, going to Desktop is
| Cmd + Shift + D, going to Documents is Cmd + Shift + O,
| going to Downloads is Cmd + Option + L, Cmd + Shift + G to
| bring a Go text input that understands ~ for home folder as
| well as autocompletes on tab, and so on. While macOS is not
| as keyboard friendly as Windows or Linux, it's not totally
| devoid of it either.
|
| If you'd like to have a more powerful experience with file
| dialogs, the paid application Default Folder X [1] is worth
| it.
|
| [1]: https://stclairsoft.com/DefaultFolderX/index.html
| bartekrutkowski wrote:
| If you open the Finder preferences, you can add few useful
| things, like your $HOME to the sidebar.
| whoopsie wrote:
| A little dramatic. Put it in list mode and you're good. Or
| drag the folder you want into the window.
| cshimmin wrote:
| Cmd+shift+g brings up a dialog where you can type arbitrary
| paths to jump to. Cmd+(up arrow) goes up a directory. Took
| me way to long to figure these out, seems small but they
| definitely are productivity boosters :)
| l72 wrote:
| I really don't like mac os's graphical shell. I am constantly
| frustrated by how terrible its window management and virtual
| desktop support is.
|
| I also find developing on a mac is so frustrating. The
| package management experience is just such a downgrade.
|
| And then there are the apps. All my daily apps are open
| source, and the apps I use just tend to work so much better
| on linux then on mac os (if they are even available on mac
| os!)
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| The defaults are terrible. I use rectangle for window
| snapping, mos for mouse scrolling, and alt-tab for saner
| alt tab behavior.
|
| Why you can't toggle between different instances of the
| same app by default is beyond me. But hey, we get more
| emojis!
| AnonHP wrote:
| > Why you can't toggle between different instances of the
| same app by default is beyond me.
|
| I'm not entirely clear on what your requirement here is.
| Historically, Mac OS X/OS X/macOS has had a different app
| and windowing model compared to Linux. If you're looking
| to switch between windows of a single app, you can use
| the keyboard shortcut Cmd + ~ (that's Command and tilde).
| There are also trackpad gestures to see all windows of an
| application (swipe down with three or four fingers) and
| switch.
| bandergirl wrote:
| What's stopping you from dual booting it?
| ukuina wrote:
| You can't dual-boot on Apple Silicon Macs, outside of the
| experimental Asahi Linux.
| cosmojg wrote:
| In my case, their MDM software of choice doesn't run on
| Linux.
| SamuelAdams wrote:
| Currently using Ashai on Arch Linux. The lack of Thunderbolt
| support is a deal breaker, as I need to use external monitors
| for work.
|
| Still excited to see progress but I'm probably not going to
| be able to use Linux on a Mac for another 12 months.
| l72 wrote:
| As Asahi stabilizes (especially with their new Fedora remix),
| that is my plan.
| aslilac wrote:
| Asahi Fedora is supposed to come out in the next few days.
| There's hope!
| jerieljan wrote:
| The Linux -> macOS experience tbh is really either about
| putting up with macOS' issues and adjusting to them, or
| patching things up with third-party solutions to make it
| tolerable. Or a bit of both. I've learned to adapt to it since
| it's a shame to miss out on the reliable battery life.
|
| Maybe there's a solution out there somewhere that would let you
| stay in full screen mode.
| sangnoir wrote:
| > I've learned to adapt to it since it's a shame to miss out
| on the reliable battery life.
|
| Is the long battery life a feature you use often, or is it
| more of a "I'm glad it's there, just in case I need it"
| feature?
| petesergeant wrote:
| How much of a performance hit would you estimate you take from
| doing that? Seems like a nice solution if not too much
| loopz wrote:
| M1+ is quite fast hardware. If not for lack of hardware
| compatibility with projects based on x86/x64, it'd be the
| best option.
|
| I think Parallells give you more, but I do a big window in
| UTM over 2 displays which works quite well and doesn't break
| rest of the OS X flow. Mic doesn't work, you occasionally
| have correct audio output, but OS X audio daemons sucks so
| it's a crapshoot if you get audio and where/how it's output.
| You don't get 3d accelleration I think, but haven't tried.
| It's not for games or Teams (neither is OS X).
|
| But it works reasonably well for software that runs on arm64,
| which on Linux may limit you a bit. But you get to make
| things work either on OS X or Linux arm64, and the rest works
| well. You may not notice much overhead compared to OS X on
| M1+.
|
| As with everything, you can make it work for you, but it's
| not for gaming, CAD, some proprietary or limited projects,
| etc. Should be fine for development and sysadmin stuff.
|
| If something works on Linux arm64 on M1, it's quite well
| supported you might say. So you get to weed out some fluff,
| but also some nice things.
| Terretta wrote:
| Given the multiple perf/$ boost of ARM on cloud hosts (e.g.
| AWS Graviton), that hardware compatibility can be put to
| work for recurring monthly profitability at the expense of
| helping OSS ecosystem learn that ARM exists.
|
| https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/08/amazon_arm_servers/
| l72 wrote:
| I'm not doing any super heavy cpu workloads nor any heavy 3d
| graphics, so I don't really notice any issues.
|
| Surprisingly, the battery lifetime is still excellent.
| mattsan wrote:
| I would definitely keep an eye out for Fedora Asahi Linux
| Kelteseth wrote:
| Can't wait for Apple to enable side loading so my iPad will
| become useful one day with this.
| vuln wrote:
| My iPad Pro is a pro consumption device. I want a productivity
| device. :(
| Pesthuf wrote:
| Even then you won't be able to get good performance without
| jailbreak because Apple makes doesn't let any third party app
| use JIT.
| vimy wrote:
| That's the whole point of the third party app stores that are
| coming next year. Apple will only be able to control apps on
| their app store.
| danwee wrote:
| It only lacks support to spin up/down multiple VMs via a simple
| configuration file (like Vagrant, for instance). If I want to
| spin up a small lab with N VMs with specific private IPs and the
| like, UTM is not the most dev-friendly tool. I think there's
| place for some tool in between UTM and QEMU.
| c-hendricks wrote:
| Two things I love about UTM:
|
| - The serial window.
|
| - The ability to truly lock the mouse to the window.
|
| I wanted to use it on my work provided machine, but when hooked
| up to my monitor, the performance was lacking (21:9, 1440p).
| Performance also felt the same across an M1 MacBook Air, an M2
| MacBook Air, and an M2 MacBook Pro, so it felt like something was
| up, not that the machine just couldn't handle it.
|
| Sadly, Parallels was the only thing I tried that performed well
| when connected to that monitor.
| Damogran6 wrote:
| Shooting from the hip, all of those CPUs have very similar
| single core performance...the more expensive chips scale out,
| rather than up.
|
| (yeah, there's a single core speed improvement across
| generations, it's just not earth-shattering)
| loopz wrote:
| Running Manjaro-i3 minimal edition quite well apart from
| expected lacks. But I don't need 3d accelleration.
| rcarmo wrote:
| If only this was on the iOS App Store...
| chaxor wrote:
| Why? I haven't ever used the iOS store, but having a git repo
| should be _far_ better as an option so you can verify that it
| is made properly, and not infected with a little extra tracking
| and such whenever it 's added to the iOS store.
| TheDong wrote:
| a git repo isn't that useful if you have to buy a $1000
| device to build it. There's plenty of people with iOS
| devices, but only linux laptop and desktop computers.
| dwaite wrote:
| My understanding is that JIT support for faster emulation
| requires a developer debugging-related entitlement which is
| not available in distributed apps.
| latexr wrote:
| By not being on the App Store, it becomes a significant
| hassle to get it running.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37334977
| [deleted]
| noduerme wrote:
| yes, I'm confused... what's new or interesting in this post?
| People have been using UTM for years.
| xen2xen1 wrote:
| Poster seems? to be a dev interested in Macs. So probably
| boosting a favorite tool.
| em500 wrote:
| I realize that "for iOS" comes from the github project blurb.,
| but I think that it's pretty misleading. The iOS installation
| options are basically a jailbreak (impossible on recent CPU/iOS
| versions) or semi-tethering and re-loading/signing the app every
| few days.
|
| https://docs.getutm.app/installation/ios/#summary
| londons_explore wrote:
| > jailbreak (impossible on recent
|
| Just think about that. Apple has successfully made hardware
| that they can distribute to 1 billion+ people, many of whom
| have something to gain by jailbreaking, yet not a single person
| has managed it.
| java-man wrote:
| ... that we know of.
| sadjad wrote:
| NSO Group entered the chat.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| This isn't because the software is secure, it's because
| nation-state actors outbid both Apple and the rest of the
| community for exclusive access to software vulnerabilities.
| New vulns often don't hit the jailbreak community for months
| or even years after the NSA has already used them to rifle
| through your shit.
|
| Furthermore, to achieve what the jailbreak community would
| consider a usable jailbreak, you need to string together
| several different vulnerabilities or bypasses into a single
| exploit chain. Nation-state actors will settle for just
| attacking iMessage directly, which gives them all your text
| messages, but is entirely useless for loading unsigned code
| or injecting tweaks into apps.
|
| To make matters worse, the UK is mulling a bill that would
| give them veto rights on security updates, specifically so
| that their old exploits would continue to work until they've
| bought new vulns.
| londons_explore wrote:
| > to rifle through your shit.
|
| I keep pcap files of all my network traffic to protect
| myself against this. If anyone has been targeted by the NSA
| and can send me example traffic, then please do.
|
| I so far haven't caught anyone doing anything nefarious,
| but with terabytes of traffic logged it's a bit of a needle
| in the haystack task. I keep the logs, because even if now
| their traffic is well hidden, I'm sure future analysis
| techniques will reveal them if they're there.
| saagarjha wrote:
| s/your/journalists and family members of politicians/
| extraduder_ire wrote:
| There's an app called reprosion that I've used in the past that
| can do the signing on your iOS device and even automate it. (I
| used it to load a semi-tethered jailbreak) The limit is 7 days.
| The app itself doesn't have to be reinstalled, just the signing
| cert.
|
| I am very excited for sideloading to get implemented in the
| EEA, since that'll make this much easier.
| SirMaster wrote:
| With an Apple dev account you can sideload apps that last for a
| year FWIW. That's what I do.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Being semi-tethered is arguably less hokey than being
| jailbroken if your aim is just to sideload apps.
|
| It also works without all that but doing so is just the slowest
| of the 3 ways to run it.
| newaccount74 wrote:
| I can't wait to see how EU sideloading will work. I hope they
| do it properly.
| vintagedave wrote:
| I used this a couple of weeks ago to install Windows 11 ARM on
| macOS (Ventura on a new M2), looking to replace Fusion. It was
| disappointing:
|
| * Integration tools like copy/paste between VM and host, or file
| sharing, didn't work
|
| * Graphics constantly glitched, often going to a grey screen.
| There seemed no way to recover, and I had to force restart the VM
|
| The drivers / assistant tools have a 2012 date on them.
|
| I'm aware it's a free product and I have no right to expect
| anything (and I don't; I went back to Fusion.) And perhaps the
| situation would improve if I or others financially supported the
| project, which seems a better response to issues :) Nevertheless
| I went in hoping I could replace the commercial VM solutions,
| which on Mac have required yearly updates that deliver almost no
| new value, with something open source -- and I can't yet.
| runxel wrote:
| That's of no surprise, because OpenGL does not work. Pretty
| useless, considering how many apps use that nowadays.
| eppsilon wrote:
| Do you have copy-paste and shared folders working in Fusion
| (with a Windows ARM VM)? Last I checked VMware Tools did not
| support those features yet.
|
| Edit: The Fusion 2023 Tech Preview [1] installs the full VMware
| Tools and supports copy-paste.
|
| 1. https://customerconnect.vmware.com/downloads/get-
| download?do...
| fellowmartian wrote:
| I use it as a really nice qemu wrapper, and if you treat it as
| one it's amazing.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| But you can't edit any of the qemu arguments?
|
| I wanted to run some risv emulation, and I need to remove
| some device from the default args UTM has, and nope. Not
| editable.
|
| Unless I'm missing something..
| t8sr wrote:
| I think the VM has to be switched off, not just suspended
| for the arguments to be editable. There are also some flags
| that UTM insists on and won't let you remove, which
| actually seems kind of reasonable - QEMU is really low-
| level and it's possible to run it in modes where UTM won't
| be able to connect to it.
| kim0 wrote:
| Maybe connecting through MS RDP tool would offer a better UX
| donatj wrote:
| Copy paste definitely works. I go back and forth all day. Did
| you install the SPICE tools?
|
| https://docs.getutm.app/guest-support/windows/#windows-xp-an...
|
| I've also not seen any graphical errors, I'm not trying to play
| games though. I just use it for basic desktop apps.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Since this is essentially QEMU: does anyone here have a working
| build of the QEMU guest utilities for Windows? No matter what one
| tries, they're _all_ severely broken. Or alternatively,
| _anything_ that can run Windows 7 x32 on an Apple Silicon
| machine.
|
| (Why? Because I need to run Samsung ODIN, which is windows-only)
| t8sr wrote:
| I can't say enough nice things about UTM. Especially if you've
| ever tried using QEMU manually, you'll appreciate how much heavy
| lifting UTM is doing for you. (It's basically impossible to run
| QEMU "correctly" on macOS. It randomly crashes, issues non-
| existent instructions, or freezes in IO for seconds at a time,
| all of which are problems UTM doesn't have.)
|
| Yes, I imagine there are fancier commercial VMs out there, but
| UTM is free and open source, and it works great. (I'm not a light
| user, either, I use it for Linux kernel work, and never had any
| cause to complain.)
| jahnu wrote:
| Great project. Just hoping for command line attach/detach of USB
| devices and we can use it in our CI setup for some stuff.
| dfabulich wrote:
| The biggest problem with UTM is that it works great for some
| people, and works terribly for others.
|
| Seriously, scroll up and down on the threads here on this page,
| and you'll see a bunch of people saying "I wish I could use UTM,
| but it doesn't work / is unusably slow" and a bunch of people
| replying "weird, it works great for me."
|
| My experience: UTM has literally never worked for me. I just
| tried to do a bog standard Ubuntu ARM install on my M1 2021 Mac,
| following the guide here https://docs.getutm.app/guides/ubuntu/
| and it failed. I'm staring at a blinking cursor on a black
| screen.
|
| Sadly, the people for whom it works great can't really provide
| any useful technical support for the people for whom it doesn't
| work.
|
| I even paid $10 for UTM on the Mac App Store, like a sucker,
| hoping that I could get some tech support that way, but the only
| tech support channel is their Discord, which is full of randos
| saying "lol, works for me, skill issue."
|
| My recommendation: Give UTM a try! Either you'll love it, and
| save a bunch of money, or it won't work at all, like me, and
| you'll just have to pay $100/year for Parallels. Parallels is
| probably gonna just work.
|
| If Parallels doesn't work for you, you can reach out to them and
| talk to a person who can help, because they want you to keep
| paying to renew your Parallels license. They're incentivized to
| help you succeed.
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