[HN Gopher] The end of cool small cars
___________________________________________________________________
The end of cool small cars
Author : danboarder
Score : 76 points
Date : 2023-08-30 04:19 UTC (18 hours ago)
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| expertentipp wrote:
| Some say that traveling educates, meantime people coming back
| from a travel to US immediately turn into "I want big-ass loud
| intimidating pickup occupying two parking spaces!"
| CameronNemo wrote:
| We never said it would be a good education ;)
| geff82 wrote:
| Indeed traveling educated me concerning cars. 1.) When
| traveling through the US, I understood that giant cars
| ("rolling living rooms") make perfect sense for the often long
| distances that have to be driven to get from one place to the
| other. 2.) When traveling through Italy, I understood why most
| people have a small Fiat Panda (because villages are so tight
| that even my moderately sized family car almost feels too big
| there).
|
| Americans might not all need big cars (or at least one car of
| the household could probably be a compact), but it is not
| obscenity that Americans/Canadians have bigger cars.
| FranzFerdiNaN wrote:
| Bigger means like a Ford Focus or so, not a fucking SUV.
| Nobody ever needs an SUV. If you need more space to move
| stuff just get a van.
| etempleton wrote:
| A lot of SUVs are more or less the same thing as a minivan.
| The minivan, like the station wagon is a casualty of its
| own success. Both became synonymous with boring domestic
| middle class family life.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| My thoughts on the demise of the North American station
| wagon:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37324322
| blamazon wrote:
| The recent Kia Carnival (name for US market IIRC) is an
| interesting response to this phenomenon. It's a true
| minivan that's just _styled_ as if it 's an SUV.
| daisystanton wrote:
| As for the "why": I'd love to learn about all of the historical
| and regulatory incentives here. From what I've managed to cobble
| together, this is partly due to CAFE standards[1], partly due to
| Section 179 of the US tax code[2], and possibly(??) due to
| contractor demand[3].
|
| [1]: In 2006, the NHTSA adopted a "footprint" approach to CAFE
| standards, where fuel efficiency standards are set based on the
| vehicle's wheelbase multiplied by its average track width. I
| haven't dug into why this is the case, but people seem to agree
| that this results in less stringent fuel economy targets for
| larger-sized vehicles. See
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy
|
| [2] A key piece of U.S. tax code, Section 179 allows businesses
| to deduct the full purchase price of qualifying equipment up to
| $1M(!) For trucks, the vehicle must have a Gross Vehicle Weight
| Rating (GVWR) over 6000 pounds to qualify for the Section 179
| deduction. This incentivizes businesses to purchase larger,
| heavier trucks. See
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_179_depreciation_deduc...
|
| [3] A friend told me (citation needed!) that the ability for a
| truck bed to carry 4x8-foot drywall sheets is often advertised as
| a selling point (is this true?). I suspect a lot of this is just
| the US market lusting after "bigger is better", but I'd love to
| hear anything others know about this.
|
| Anyone have details they could add to this?
| ewgoforth wrote:
| Actually, a lot of these new trucks have smaller beds than
| older ones, despite being larger overall. I'm sure would be
| much less capable of carrying plywood or a motorcycle in the
| back because they have cabs with generously sized back seats
| instead of a three across bench seat. They're basically sedans
| that looks like trucks, but can't do truck stuff even as well
| as older compact trucks.
| xethos wrote:
| > partly due to CAFE standards
|
| Posted above; CAFE plays a larger role than you might assume.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azI3nqrHEXM
| scott00 wrote:
| The elephants in the economic incentive room are:
|
| (1) Taxation of environmental externalities caused by fossil-
| fuel driven transportation are nowhere near the socially
| optimal level.
|
| (2) Fossil fuel production is massively subsidized, even beyond
| the lack of taxation offsetting environmental externalities.
| mindslight wrote:
| It's hard to figure the importance of #3. As just a home DIYer,
| I would generally think transporting 4x8 sheet goods would be
| critical.
|
| But I happily move sheet goods with a trailer now, towed by a
| light SUV. Even not having much truck experience, I'd say it's
| easier to load/unload than a truck (can you fork things from
| the side out of a standard pickup bed?). So if I wanted a truck
| for more towing capacity, the sheet goods thing wouldn't really
| matter as I could always use the trailer.
|
| But I also think a lot of contractors tow enclosed trailers
| that keep all their tools and whatnot, so perhaps they're back
| to wanting larger trucks for times when they need one or two
| sheet goods easily (for larger quantities they'll often use
| delivery. I love those three wheeled rough terrain forklifts)
|
| I'd think I'm solidly in the target market for something like a
| kei truck, but they don't have much appeal for me. Little
| towing capacity. Poor crash standards means they wouldn't be
| good for the case of driving a medium highway distance to pick
| up something off craigslist. Perhaps if one with a dump bed
| fell into my lap.
| i2km wrote:
| As my modest contribution to the battle against
| SUVs/crossovers/other bloat, I am attempting to popularise the
| term 'bimbo box' - the credit of which belongs to Neal
| Stephenson's Snow Crash
| southwesterly wrote:
| I call them the more offensive "TwatPanzers"
| alexwasserman wrote:
| Given how horribly the biggest trucks drive around me (NYC
| suburbs), I'm all in favor of treating trucks like trucks.
|
| If you're over 3000lb then you get speed limited to 55, require
| additional driving licensing for the heavier, more cumbersome
| special purpose vehicle, etc.
|
| Treat trucks like trucks and encourage behavior in the direction
| that's societally appropriate.
|
| The cars overtaking me the most are 5,000lb F250s and 2500s doing
| 80+. They're the same ones racing on 25mph residential streets,
| and over taking school buses.
|
| The size and protection is a moral hazard that causes incredibly
| bad behavior.
|
| And that's before you get to the morons with the serious lifts
| and 35"+ tires, deliberately rolling coal as they drive around.
| [deleted]
| fmajid wrote:
| They are disappearing for the same reason as stick-shift cars or
| small phones. Consumer demonstrate with their preferences they
| think bigger is better.
| etempleton wrote:
| You saw a resurgence of small cars in the US around 2010 after
| the US housing bubble burst. High unemployment + suppressed
| wages + high gas prices had Americans, particularly young
| Americans, looking for small compact cars.
| starkparker wrote:
| Yeah, the Honda Fit was one of the best-selling cars in the
| US for a few years of the late 00s. Peaked around 2008, when
| it outsold the Ford Explorer and Chevy TrailBlazer.
|
| Even then Honda sold about 450k fewer Fits that year than
| F-series trucks, and 120k fewer Fits than CR-V crossovers.
| Writing was on the wall by 2014, when Honda tried to sell an
| awful 20kWh/sub-100 mi. range EV Fit, and it never recovered.
| Gone completely from the US by 2020.
| [deleted]
| cjs_ac wrote:
| A lot of the analysis on this issue relates to the supply side of
| the market - manufacturers maximising margins and increasing
| safety standards - but the demand side plays a role too. For the
| past fifteen years, we've lived with negligible interest rates
| and (for most people) stagnating wages. This encourages consumers
| to cut back on small-ticket items but splurge on items bought on
| credit (mostly houses and cars).
|
| This environment is crumbling: many older people went into
| retirement (or were forced into it) during the pandemic, and many
| working mothers found that the cost of childcare exceeded their
| contribution to the household finances; this reduced labour pool
| coupled with increasing interest rates (in part a response to
| that smaller labour pool) will push car buyers to be more
| thrifty. I expect to see smaller cars return to dealer forecourts
| in the next couple of years, especially in Europe.
| daisystanton wrote:
| Ughhhhh -- yes, I constantly dream of a pickup truck on a car-
| size chassis, and often mentally hack off the back of cars on my
| jogs to imagine what they'd look like as trucks (my version of
| imagining girls naked ;-))
|
| * The Auzzies had an old version of this:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ute_(vehicle)
|
| * There's an awesome Tesla pickup truck mod that I'd buy long
| before the Cybertruck:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R35gWBtLCYg
| cf100clunk wrote:
| Auzzies? That would be ''Aussies'', mate, and the market for
| the ''ute'' is alive and well to this day there and in New
| Zealand. Australian car buyers have also tended to prefer
| 4-door sedans to 2-door coupes.
| tabiv wrote:
| The closest thing we have these days is the Ford Maverick. It's
| a ute! They're not very available though.
| amadeuspagel wrote:
| Cars should be taxed based on weight.
| wcarron wrote:
| While the author rightfully decries the bloating of the Rav4,
| it's pretty close to a perfect size for a couple who consistently
| travels outdoors. Our '14 Subie crosstrek just shit its
| transmission out and we migrated to a used pre-facelift Rav out
| of necessity, being in a small city with little pub transport and
| poor infrastructure.
|
| I just really, really wish a carmaker would make something that
| size, and put it on a real 4x4 platform. AWD is okay, but if
| you're really gettin' out there, sometimes you just need that
| extra capability. As of right now, there's basically no true 4x4
| out there that has decent cargo space and isn't absolutely
| gigantic. New Jeeps are as big as old Hummers (which used to be
| considered massive), the Bronco has piss-poor cargo space for
| just how bloated the thing is. The 4Runner is getting bigger
| almost every year.
|
| There simply are no worthwhile new, small, capable vehicles for
| sale. A Rav4 or Outback sized body-on-frame 4x4, with an 8 speed
| auto or 6-spd manual, good suspension, cupholders that fit a
| Hydroflask, and some sturdy roof rails and a hitch to hold a bike
| rack is the ideal outdoor vehicle, imo. Toss in the new niceties
| like wireless phone charger, CarPlay/Android Auto, and blind spot
| detection, adaptive CC, etc. to make paved driving a bit nicer,
| and you're golden.
| CobaltFire wrote:
| Just as a note: The 4Runner (and related GX) haven't changed in
| size since 2004 (GX this year got larger).
|
| They aren't "getting bigger every year"; they've stayed
| basically the same size for a very long time. The incoming
| Tacoma/4R is almost the same size as that 2004 model, and is a
| hybrid to boot with a true 4WD system. It's larger than the
| RAV4, but the gap has gotten smaller every time the RAV4 gets
| larger.
|
| Source: Currently have a 2004 GX470, used to have a 2018 GX460,
| most of my friends have 4R's or Tacoma's. Note that my daily is
| a Mercedes Metris because my child is special needs; the GX has
| been in the family for a very long time at this point.
| RamblingCTO wrote:
| Don't worry, they are disappearing in Europe as well, mostly
| (imho) thanks to ever stricter security standards. I read that
| it's very hard to design a small car that adheres to modern
| standards.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I think the real reason is it's very hard to make money on a
| small car.
| cookiengineer wrote:
| I think the VW beetle would disagree. The Avtovaz Lada, too.
|
| Opel Corsa, Mazda Familia, Fiat Uno, Trabant 601, Toyota
| Corolla, VW Golf, Renault Clio, Seat Ibiza...
|
| All of those the best or second best selling models of their
| manufacturers.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| The fact they are best selling in the range doesn't mean
| they are profitable.
| Paianni wrote:
| Most of those are B and C-segment cars, which are holding
| up ok in Europe. The real collapse has been choice and
| availability in the A-segment. The Fiat New 500 might be
| the last new offering for a while.
| etempleton wrote:
| To make money on a small car you have to sell volume and
| small cars don't sell volume in the US compared to bigger
| vehicles. The top three selling vehicles every year, by a
| large margin, are Ford F150, Chevy Silverado, and Dodge Ram.
|
| If the big high margin vehicles sell in volume there is
| little incentive to create small low margin, low volume cars.
| leokennis wrote:
| I love my 2010 Honda Jazz (called Fit in the US). Small, can
| carry loads of weirdly shaped stuff, roomy enough for two
| adults and two kids, unbreakable. And on summer holidays I rent
| a roof box for about EUR100/week so I can fit all our luggage.
| mysterydip wrote:
| I'm in the market for my next car (new or used), and I'd
| prefer something small like the fit/jazz. But I have 3 kids
| instead of 2, which seems like my only options from the last
| decade are MPVs or SUVs. I'd love to be wrong, though.
| leokennis wrote:
| The back bench of my Jazz easily fits three kids (and had
| three seatbelts) comfortably for normal trips.
| mysterydip wrote:
| Good to know, thanks! I'll check it out
| starkparker wrote:
| Had a similar problem car shopping to replace a 10-year-old
| Fit recently. Kia Rio can do it with tighter leg room, but
| lacks the Fit's fold-down seats if you want to swap kids
| for cargo, and has also been discontinued going forward.
| Chevy Sonic and Bolt/Volt hatches could squeeze theee in
| the back too, and the Sonic had the fold-down rear seats,
| but it's been discontinued since 2020 and the Volt and Bolt
| are in limbo.
|
| Wound up unhappy with a larger, harder to park Subaru
| Impreza that in practice gets 15-20mpg less than the Fit,
| which also still sold used for $11k(!).
| forinti wrote:
| I have a 2016 Fit and had a first generation Fit before that.
| They are the most reliable cars I've ever had.
|
| I'm a fan of the Toyota Yaris too. It's such a shame they
| were discontinued.
| nicelunch wrote:
| The Honda fit 2016 is my first car, and only car. I can't
| imagine getting another car. It's just too good!
| leokennis wrote:
| My first car was a 1999 Yaris, bought in 2014 for EUR1,250
| with 320K on the odometer. Shifting gears sometimes took
| some force but otherwise drove like a dream...and the
| "holographic" gauge-screen-thingy was brilliant. Oh, and
| the back bench which you could slide backwards and forwards
| to choose between trunk space or leg room!
|
| The best thing is, I sold it in 2016 with 400K on the
| odometer for EUR1,000...likely it's still chugging along
| nicely as we speak :-)
| Arnt wrote:
| Source?
| RamblingCTO wrote:
| Quick googling:
|
| https://europe.autonews.com/sales-segment/automakers-
| fight-r...
|
| > "New CO2 rules will require automakers to fit thousands of
| euros of tech to each car," Max Warburton, an analyst at
| research and brokerage firm Sanford C. Bernstein wrote in an
| April report. "Big cars have the price points and margins to
| cover these costs. Small cars simply do not. These segments
| may soon be abandoned by many manufacturers."
| lincon127 wrote:
| Large cars can suck my many pickled cocks, they are absolutely
| worthless.
| brocklobsta wrote:
| Oh the unintended consequences of government regulations. CAFE
| and Section 179 incentivize larger vehicles, so the market reacts
| rationally and fills that demand.
|
| P.S. I love small trucks with big wheels.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| Cities should start putting in bollards that prevent wide
| vehicles from passing but let narrow ones through. Make the
| bollards retractable into the ground. If you want your big-arse
| vehicle to go through, you have to stop and then pay 10 $/PS/EUR
| hbn wrote:
| I've always driven a small car and it's what I prefer to drive.
| They're easy to handle, I like being able to not worry as much
| about navigating tight curbs, and fit into smaller or "small car
| only" parking spaces, etc.
|
| But man, sometimes I pull up beside one of these absurdly huge
| modern trucks and I'm basically just staring at their wheels.
| It's terrifying to think if I collided head-on with one of these,
| they'd probably just run me over. Or the entire truck body would
| shave off the top of my car, along with my head.
|
| It makes me want to upgrade to a stupid big vehicle too, just for
| my own safety.
| Cagrosso wrote:
| You describe the exact reason I sold my Civic for a Rav4. My
| commute often had me looking at tires out my sides, headlights
| and grill in the rear, and a tow hitch out the front.
| dusted wrote:
| I've noticed a large increase in what I call "idiot cars" in
| Denmark too, these giant monstrosities that seem impractical in
| every way except for driving through smaller cars and making sure
| the driver survives whatever incompetence lead them to buy it in
| the first place.
|
| I feel it might be time to legislate this, there are perfectly
| legitimate reasons to drive a very large car, like, you live 100
| miles from the nearest town and there are no roads, only swamp,
| marsh and desert between you and the grocery, or you haul around
| your pet cow all day.. Good, have your car, you need it.
|
| In every other case. You don't and you're an idiot helping to
| accelerate the problem as this now becomes a weapons race on the
| road, nobody with a normal-sized car will want to drive it
| surrounded by idiot-cars, as they're simply too dangerous to be
| around in anything besides an idiot car.
| Stranger43 wrote:
| A lot of this is that anything electric needs to be an order of
| magnitude heavier and significantly large to achieve any range
| due to the much lower energy density of batteries.
|
| It's possible to have small electrics but those often have
| short ranges and most of the big ugly things you see on the
| roads in DK is kinda hybrids or follows the trend set by the
| hybrids.
|
| The real way to deal with the SUV nonsense and not hurt the
| rural areas where you might need range is to just charge double
| for parking for large cars and cap the speed of large almost
| trucks to the same as lorries.
| kolektiv wrote:
| I've got a Tesla Model 3, which a) has a perfectly decent
| range, up near the top of the general class, and b) isn't a
| huge car. It's not a small car but a sensibly mid-sized car -
| significantly smaller than the ridiculous SUVs I weave in
| between.
|
| Electric is a non-factor here; in fact, one of the
| fundamental things that Tesla gets right, which other
| manufacturers of electric vehicles studiously ignore, is
| aerodynamics (not all, clearly). The very worst size and
| shape for an electric vehicle is "huge and brick-like" as it
| is for all vehicles - it's much more apparent with EVs,
| though, where the range is so easily comparable.
|
| (N.B. I got it before Musk went so spectacularly off the deep
| end, it was a motoring choice not a political/fandom one).
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| The model 3 and BMW i4s are both classified as compacts in
| the American system (same as Honda accords). The leaf,
| bolt, and i3 are sub compacts (civic class).
|
| I have an i4 now, and I really feel the extra 2 inches in
| width it has over my previous Acura ILX (basically a fancy
| Honda civic). None of the sub compact EVs have very good
| range yet.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Thankfully there are many European roads where those
| monstrosities would just get stuck, and would be full of
| scratches when pulling them out.
| globular-toast wrote:
| If only. Unfortunately cars are considered sacrosanct in most
| places, for some reason. Your own body is worth less than a
| car and the safety of cars is high on police priorities. If
| cars don't fit down a road they'll just destroy the foliage
| or verge and we'll pay to widen the road.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Buildings, villages,....
| rascul wrote:
| Maybe calling everyone with a car you don't like an incompetent
| idiot isn't the best way to go about doing things.
| redeeman wrote:
| or maybe, just perhaps a little MAYBE, not everyone is hipsters
| that spend 99% of their time sipping coffee at starbucks while
| working for FAANGs remotely on a suspiciously small cyberdeck.
|
| Some people lead active lifestyles that entails transporting
| large amounts of things, including but not limited to kids,
| their kids friends, dog, toys, equipment
| sw104 wrote:
| Very defensive reply.
|
| Many people use Range Rovers to simply drop their kids off at
| school, to drive to work, or to transport groceries.
|
| If you're really for people leading active lifestyles, maybe
| those such people should get their kid to walk to school.
| redeeman wrote:
| and you probably use an extremely overpowered device for
| checking your email, but perhaps you also use it to do
| other things?
| sw104 wrote:
| Not really sure where you're going with this line of
| thought. I stand by my point.
|
| Many people do purely use these cars for no purpose
| besides them being a status symbol, or to be more secure
| on the road (which could be suggestive of a non-confident
| or bad driver).
|
| The roads are getting more dangerous and the climate is
| taking a bigger hit as a result of these cars being on
| the road. I'm sure once in a while they're useful for
| transporting things, but that point fails to come across
| when the bulk of the time that isn't the case, and it's
| just one person in an otherwise empty SUV driving to
| work.
| redeeman wrote:
| > Many people do purely use these cars for no purpose
| besides them being a status symbol, or to be more secure
| on the road (which could be suggestive of a non-confident
| or bad driver).
|
| In the same way me configuring which interfaces to bind
| to also could be suggestive of a non confident or bad
| firewall configuration ability.
|
| And sure, most of the time the car gets used for other
| purposes, because people have to WORK atleast 5 days a
| week, and government policies (amongst cost of actual car
| ofc) makes it unfavorable to have a big car for when you
| need that, and a small car for daily commute.
|
| Most of the time you dont need a big computer, so I now
| demand, and Demand the government legislates it, that ANY
| computing purpose you do that could be served with a sub
| 2W arm device, be done so. Leave those filthy amds and
| intels to those who run 24/7 workloads. The climate
| commands you!
| JambalayaJim wrote:
| I think you're missing the point here. Operating a
| powerful computing device doesn't negatively impact other
| people.
|
| On the other hand, SUV drivers directly make my life less
| safe every single day.
|
| This shouldn't even be thought of primarily as a climate
| issue - pedestrian and cyclist fatalities are up simply
| because of the size of cars on the road today.
|
| It's simply not worth it, and cities should tax SUV
| drivers accordingly.
| lozf wrote:
| Using a MacBook Pro to check email (or any other non-
| intensive task) does not endanger the lives of other's
| checking their email on "lesser" devices, nor school
| kids.
| Twixes wrote:
| The impact of your high-end or large laptop on other
| people's lives is nil. Nobody cares, even the energy
| grid. The impact of your large SUV on other people's live
| is significant - be that when they find themselves
| anywhere near you, or when they just live in the same
| city and don't enjoy infrastructure for cars getting ever
| larger at the expense of humans.
| katsura wrote:
| My extremely overpowered device is literally half the
| size (both weight and depth) of what I had a few years
| ago.
| redeeman wrote:
| im unsure what that has to do with anything.. what
| happened to the old device?
| leokennis wrote:
| * Count the number of things you can do with a huge truck but
| cannot do with an MPV or van * Count the number of people who
| do the things listed above * Count the sales of huge trucks
| and of sensible MPV's/vans * Note the discrepancy
| hagbarth wrote:
| Those people should get station wagons or mpv's which
| generally have much more room for those sorts of things.
| nicelunch wrote:
| So... a wagon would suffice?
|
| Every single person that I know that have bought a gigantic
| car (Like a ford raptor) uses it for commuting to their work
| that is less than 7 miles away and GROCERY SHOPPING...
|
| While yes, there are definitely people that need to transport
| large amount of things, they can most of the time do the same
| thing by buying a wagon or a subcompact car. See Jeep
| Renegade.
| [deleted]
| FranzFerdiNaN wrote:
| No, they dont. Those same people also lived thirty years ago,
| most likely had a much more active lifestyle and did
| perfectly fine with much smaller cars.
| redeeman wrote:
| well yeah sure, they lived, they used what they had.
|
| we also lived with computers of the 90ies, 00s, did mostly
| same things, Wanna go back? You want them to limit
| themselves to the equivelant in car tech
| earthling8118 wrote:
| Right, all of the innovation in cars has been the ability
| to make them larger. We absolutely didn't have the
| capabilities in the past, did we? It's remarkable what
| the current times bring: finally we have advanced car
| tech that can support my need for size.
| [deleted]
| Aromasin wrote:
| Same in the UK. SUVs and large off-road vehicles are taking
| over. The Range Rover seems to be the car of choice for every
| wealthy middle-aged mother on her morning school run. Just
| recently, one of them managed to careen hers into kids outside
| their school, killing a number of them [1].
|
| Low emission zone are becoming more ubiquitous, which combats
| the issue to some regards, but I question why anyone but a
| farmer needs to own anything that large _anywhere_. This isn 't
| the US, where pavements/sidewalks are a pipedream for anyone
| outside of New York. Nobody should be solo operating tanks just
| 5m away from someone walking their dog or on their way to
| school.
|
| [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/wimbledon-
| ca...
| sw104 wrote:
| Range Rovers are a disease in the UK.
|
| A brand which had it's origins in the military and farming,
| which has now been repurposed to drop kids off at a school.
|
| It's also the most frequent car I see which is sped around
| and overtakes with zero concern for other road users. The
| people driving them seem to not understand the size of their
| car and either pass over-cautiously or tunnel through
| everybody else whenever the road is partially obstructed
| (parked cars in towns and villages).
|
| The modern Range Rovers no longer even work for their
| original purpose. They're not sturdy enough to last on a
| farm, just fashion symbols.
|
| When I question if humanity will tame itself and step down
| from destroying our world in the pursuit of comfort and
| consumerism at all costs, the first thing I think of is a
| white Range Rover Discovery.
| cpursley wrote:
| Land Rovers are a disease anywhere they go just based on
| their quality ratings alone. They are consistently rated as
| the most unreliable vehicles on the market.
| NullPrefix wrote:
| A status symbol. Like BMW. Breaks all the time, but
| you're showing off to other people that you can afford to
| fix it and keep it running
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| The interesting thing to me is that all the 'rational'
| arguments given by SUV buyers (more storage, easy of entry,
| larger interior space) are without exception much better in
| any family MPV instead of SUVs that invariably are also
| pretty shit off-road vehicles.
|
| Literally just more weight and waste, zero function other
| than satisfying the buyers reptilian brain.
| arethuza wrote:
| I recently had my car written off (a small SUV) and due to
| lack of availability of replacements I replaced it with a
| similar sized hatchback. Now I find myself thinking why on
| earth I had an SUV - I'm unlikely to purchase another one
| as the hatchback is cheaper, roomier inside and handles
| much better.
| vikingerik wrote:
| There are small 'subcompact' crossover SUVs that get the
| best of both of those worlds. I've owned a Nissan Kicks
| and Honda HR-V. Both are marketed as SUVs but really
| function as roomy hatchbacks (lightweight, tight
| handling, front-wheel drive), along with others in the
| category. Very practical compromise between
| cost/efficiency and size/utility. Generally the only
| thing that cars in this class don't do is tow.
| arethuza wrote:
| So apart from being a bit higher up - what is the benefit
| of the SUV?
|
| Edit: It's a question I keep asking myself, my wife still
| has a SUV...
| datavirtue wrote:
| You can tow a small camper. ??
| southwesterly wrote:
| You can look down on the plebs? :/
| Aromasin wrote:
| Agreed. I've been a passenger in plenty of them; many of
| them don't seem any bigger on the inside than a hatchback,
| with very similar boot space. It's all pointless,
| superficial bodywork that makes the demand for them seem
| even more egregious to me.
| GoToRO wrote:
| Because the space is under the car, between the wheels. I
| was surprised too.
| neuralRiot wrote:
| Have you been on a BMW X6? I swear there's less interior
| space in it than in a 3-series, the trunk is almost at
| armpit level and a mazda 3 can load bigger things. Same
| for the mercedes GLC. They're the contemporary version of
| the hummer.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| Instead of punishing the middle class by slapping ulez on
| them, it would be far more effective and fair for the london
| mayor to offer free school buses like they do in some parts
| of America.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| School children already have free bus travel in London.
| r_hoods_ghost wrote:
| Ummmm under sixteens have had free bus and tram travel in
| London for years. Or do you not want them to interact with
| members of the public and live in a sanitised bubble
| consisting solely of you and your nanny?
| ranko wrote:
| Children under 16 already get free travel on buses and
| trams in London, though they have to pay discounted fares
| on the tube and they'll need a photocard if they are 11 or
| over.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| I'm aware of that having owned one and journeyed by bus
| to school every day. I also see vast amounts of traffic
| near schools during term times. So from personal
| observations and experience that's not nearly enough.
| kolektiv wrote:
| I'm not sure the middle classes are likely to be hit by
| ULEZ anyway - it hits vehicles older than a certain age,
| primarily - not many of those Chelsea Tractors are likely
| to fall foul of it. While I agree with ULEZ, I will admit
| it's quite regressive - the people with old/polluting
| vehicles are, in many cases, those least able to afford
| anything better and/or the charge. Public transport should
| be much better, but that's way beyond the scope of
| something the mayor can quickly impact.
| datavirtue wrote:
| In the US nearly everyone drives their truck like it's a car.
| This is very dangerous. Hence the pedestrian death numbers
| soaring.
|
| I have a 4x2 F-150 as my daily driver that is also my tow rig
| and work truck. I drive like a grandpa because I dont want
| people/pedestrians to be threatened by my vehicle. Nor do I
| want to hit anyone or anything.
|
| You would not believe how popular it is to make the truck
| even bigger. People are obsessively doing 3" lift kits with
| aggressive stance rims and 40" tires. It costs yet another
| fortune to do this and causes otherwise fuel efficient trucks
| to suck gas like a 1977 Dodge 3/4 ton.
|
| I'm in a truck and I have to dodge these fucks.
|
| Edit: Part of this is due to the tax code. People can form an
| LLC and write off the truck and any "expenses" (cough... lift
| kits and superchargers) and still use the thing as their
| daily driver.
| leokennis wrote:
| Same in The Netherlands. In the last year I've seen several
| micropenis-compensating huge RAM and Ford pick-ups appearing in
| my neighborhood. They don't fit a standard parking spot. For
| small businesses they carry less than something like a Ford
| transit. Horrible noise. Terrible visibility from the wheel.
| Terrible fuel economy. I'm severely hoping that our government
| imposes a 1000% tax on them or something.
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| I feel like the "compensating" joke about large SUV and truck
| drivers has really run its course by this point.
| leokennis wrote:
| Except for some edge cases, what else is the use of a
| 3,000kg 6m truck when it is transporting between 1 and 4
| people except to compensate?
| datavirtue wrote:
| Status symbol of intimidation. I can afford this because
| I'm something. Step aside. You get to telegraph your
| success everywhere. Especially at work. When you
| telegraph success it begets more success. Shiney door
| handles, wheels, and badges that say "Platinum."
|
| I need to tow shit and haul building supplies. The base
| model tows more, gets better milage, and handles
| better...and costs a hell of a lot less.
| eindiran wrote:
| The point is that the compensating / micropenis jokes
| have been beating a dead horse for at least 10 years at
| this point. It's boring, it's embarrassing and it takes
| away from your message when you pepper them into your
| speech.
| leokennis wrote:
| I disagree. At least in The Netherlands, these vehicles
| are a classic "mid life crisis mobile". People
| compensating for something by buying an outrageous
| vehicle. So the "compensating joke" I'm making is in my
| opinion at least 50% truth.
| eindiran wrote:
| I am not making a claim about the truthiness of the
| "joke". I'm saying it's old, not funny, and frankly
| annoying. And, to be clear, I have no stake in defending
| large vehicle ownership; I'm just saying you will elicit
| more agreement and fewer eye-rolls if you drop the
| "compensating" joke.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| How do you explain the women who drive these vehicles?
| leokennis wrote:
| I've never seen a woman drive these (in The Netherlands).
| It's always middle aged men.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| They already get taxed disproportionately based on weight
| alone. But this meme import needs some form of EuroNCAP
| curbing not just emissions related.
|
| Something like an F-150 in Dutch cities is (in my view) an
| unacceptable risk for any child on a fietspad or a
| pedestrian. The visibility is shit, and the chances of
| survival on impact are close to nothing. A lorry is literally
| safer than that non-sense.
| rocgf wrote:
| > you're an idiot helping to accelerate the problem as this now
| becomes a weapons race on the road
|
| This is a very harsh take for something that is legal and
| widespread everywhere across the world (at least Western
| world).
|
| You have to try really hard to pretend you don't understand why
| this is happening. It's a race to the top of the safety
| spectrum, and for good reason. Traffic accidents are among the
| single biggest sources of preventable deaths and grave
| injuries, and getting a bigger car is one of the single most
| important aspects you can control in this equation. It's
| actually super simple.
|
| If this is truly a problem, and I guess it is, then there
| should be some form of legislative intervention against it. The
| people buying them are not the problem, the environment which
| encourages this is.
| JambalayaJim wrote:
| This just needs to reframed so that political actors /
| governments can actually legislate this away.
|
| The reality is that large SUVs do make everyone on the road
| less safe, and that should be impressed upon people buying
| these things. Buying an SUV might make you the driver safer,
| but your kids, neighbours, relatives etc. less safe.
|
| People are more communally conscious than you give them
| credit...
| masa331 wrote:
| It's not a race to the top of the safety spectrum. That's
| just a disguise and also only for some people. It's a race to
| the top of the "social" and $ spectrum where you have to show
| how little you care about the others and the environment and
| also how much money you can dump on vanity and impractical
| things
| tmnvix wrote:
| Safety for me, but not for thee...
|
| Some people don't even get to make a choice, they just suffer
| the consequences (e.g. children and others that can't drive
| for whatever reason). As vehicles have been getting bigger,
| pedestrian deaths have been going up. I don't think it's mere
| coincidence.
| rocgf wrote:
| I don't really understand why everyone in this post is so
| hung up on this.
|
| As long as there is no regulation in a particular area,
| obviously each actor will look out for their own interest.
| I wouldn't even call it selfish, it's just the natural
| order of things and an example of the tragedy of the
| commons. Nothing more, nothing less.
|
| The fact that people here act as if learning how to drive
| better and getting an SUV is an either/or choice is
| ridiculous.
| lincon127 wrote:
| Sounds like you're one of the idiots
| leokennis wrote:
| It's a race to the top of the safety spectrum in which my 8
| year old son on his bicycle can only participate as a
| guaranteed loser.
| Arrath wrote:
| In fact its all a long con to bring the Penny Farthing back
| into style so drivers of modern land barges can see your
| child on his bicycle over their own 1.5m high hood/grille.
| FranzFerdiNaN wrote:
| > This is a very harsh take for something that is legal and
| widespread everywhere across the world (at least Western
| world).
|
| No, he is absolutely right. 99% of all people do not need a
| bigger car, they need better driving skills. But hey, its
| capitalism so of course we solve our issues with money
| tsss wrote:
| I highly doubt that safety is on the mind of SUV and truck
| buyers. Perhaps that is the reason they give after the fact,
| but really it is all about looks.
| dybber wrote:
| Often these big cars even have a quite small trunk, e.g.
| compared to a station wagon.
|
| Soon though, a few car makers will release electric station
| wagons (e.g. Peugeot e-308). Many danes already drives station
| wagons, so I hope people will start buying those kind of cars
| instead of SUV's.
| adhesive_wombat wrote:
| Apparently, according to a guy trying to put in a higher
| offer on a car already sold, used estate cars in the UK are
| now selling at a premium because people who actually want
| such a car for its practical benefits, including farmers (a
| battered Volvo V70 and then XC70, which isn't a crossover
| like the XC60[1], is a common sight on a farm) struggle to
| find them because the market is full of shiny "wank tanks"
| with the boot space of a chunky hatchback coming off leases.
|
| [1] and now the ridiculous XC40, for which they discontinued
| the "actually a car" V40, three years after also
| discontinuing the XC/V70 entirely.
| grunder_advice wrote:
| I don't believe that it is the end. Because small cars make more
| sense than big ass SUVs from a whole lot of angles: safety on the
| roads, energy efficiency, parking, traffic in cities, cost for
| the consumer.
|
| It is a policy failure that we ended up in this situation, a hard
| one to fix, but I still think that it is inevitable that we will
| revert to smaller vehicles, eventually.
| etempleton wrote:
| I generally agree with you, but small cars are a lot less safe
| on a highway with tractor trailers and big SUVs around.
| ianburrell wrote:
| Big SUVs and pickup trucks are less or equally safe to mid-
| size SUVs and cars. The pickup frame is durable but doesn't
| provide good occupant protection. Also, big vehicles are more
| likely to crash being less maneuverable. Plus, a good portion
| of crashes are single-car and doesn't matter how big truck is
| if crash into pillar.
| 1231112315123 wrote:
| There's actually a new class of cars that doesn't go by the name:
| L7e. L7e is the EU's name for light electric cars. 90 km/h top
| speed, 200 km range. Cheap.
|
| While small "cars" might disappear, I think the L7e class will
| see a lot of improvements.
| bad_alloc wrote:
| This still leaved the gap for small cars you can cram 4 people
| inside + some luggage unfilled. Also, are manufacturers taking
| L7e vehicles seriously, or are they styling them like toys
| still? Early EVs suffered form car companies deliberately
| making them look non-serious.
| 1231112315123 wrote:
| I think the Renault Twizy is a great example where it was
| made too much of a toy - and I pretty much stopped following
| the developments in the L7e space with that. But now a lot of
| Chinese companies seem to sell vehicles that are _actually
| useful_ - mostly in the last-mile delivery space.
|
| This one convinced me that you can build useful vehicles:
| https://www.ari-motors.com
|
| Essentially, L7e could perhaps be the _Kei car_ of Europe?
| mbwgh wrote:
| I didn't know about this, looks pretty neat.
|
| Unfortunately, 90 km/h top speed is a hard sell here in
| Germany, since that means that you will get in other people's
| way when driving on federal roads or the Autobahn, provoking
| people into dangerous overtaking manoeuvres.
|
| In addition to cars having become noticeably larger in the last
| years, people's driving styles has (imo) become more aggressive
| also.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| Yes, but also there's nothing wrong with the Yaris.
| flyingfences wrote:
| Except that the Toyota Yaris has been cancelled entirely in the
| US market, along with the Prius C, the Honda Fit, the Nissan
| Versa hatch, the Ford Fiesta (and all Ford cars except the
| Mustang), the Fiat 500, the Smart Car, the Mitsubishi Mirage,
| and every small hatchback except the (overpriced and
| controversially styled) Mini and a couple of electric models.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| Sure, the US has a weird problem that the article talks
| about.
|
| I'm disagreeing with the "(ew)" aimed at the Yaris in the
| article. It's no worse than the Honda Jazz, Ford Fiesta, VW
| Polo, etc.
| rwmj wrote:
| Except even the Yaris has got bigger over the years. (Nothing
| like the Mini which is now a kind of SUV).
| ewgoforth wrote:
| This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azI3nqrHEXM explains
| why small pickup trucks can't really be sold in the USA anymore.
| This explains the drive to larger pickups, but I don't know what
| explains the drive from cars to trucks/SUVs.
|
| We were considering a wagon when we bought our last vehicle, an
| SUV. The ability to occasionally carry more than five people was
| the deciding point. I believe crash standards prevent the selling
| of wagons with a "wayback" anymore.
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| The Mercedes E450 wagon has the rear-facing 3rd row as standard
| equipment in the USA.
|
| Because of course you wanted a wagon with a starting price of
| $75k without any options.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| We legitimately considered it; there are no cars that seat 7
| for under $40k new these days, so it's less-than-double the
| price of the cheapest option.
|
| Totally off-topic, but I actually saw a E450 wagon AMG on the
| streets the other day. Had no clue they even made one of
| those. Will only set you back $177k
| flyingfences wrote:
| There aren't even wagons for sale in America anymore. There are
| a few crossover-wagon options, with lifted suspension and
| plastic cladding _a la_ Subaru Outback; there are a few
| overlarge hatchbacks, e.g., the Honda Civic; but, look for a
| normal wagon with traditional four-pillar proportions and
| normal car handling and styling and the only option you 'll
| find for sale here is the Porsche Panamera Sport Turismo, which
| is not an affordable family vehicle. Gone are the days of the
| Volvo 240 or VW Golf wagons; long gone are the big old American
| wagons.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| To me, the North American passenger car manufacturers'
| changeover from ladder-frame to unibody construction was the
| death knell for the kind of station wagon you've described,
| with four-pillar proportions and normal car handling and
| styling. With the 1970s fuel price crisis, those giant
| dinosaurs were terribly impractical, but a full sized
| mid-1970s ladder-framed station wagon could pull a large
| trailer without being twisted into a pretzel from the forces
| at play. Nowadays a full-sized pickup truck or SUV with
| proper towing ratings is needed for the same.
|
| Station wagons in North America were hit with a stigma about
| carbon monoxide poisoning in the rear seats. The term
| ''Station Wagon Effect'' is still used in relation to
| industrial and residential ventilation systems as well as in
| boating and of course the automobile industry. When mini-vans
| surged in popularity starting in the 1980s they had better
| ventilation at the rear, and today any wagon would need to
| stringently protect against CO inhalation. Still, the stigma
| remains.
| cafard wrote:
| My family had at least one station wagon--Jeep Wagoneer,
| Ford Falcon, Ford Ranch Wagon--for most of the 1960s and
| 1970s. I don't remember ever hearing a concern about carbon
| monoxide. When did this start being talked about?
| cf100clunk wrote:
| > Station Wagon Effect
|
| Described in several links I just found here:
| https://search.brave.com/search?q=Station+Wagon+Effect
|
| but I'm remembering that concerns about it started coming
| up in the 1960s when vehicle safety regulations were
| becoming a thing. Sorry, I don't have a historical
| reference at hand.
| CobaltFire wrote:
| Volvo still sells the V60 PHEV if you want one.
| [deleted]
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Holy cow that explains at least some of what's going on. I'm
| still not sure why trucks are getting taller too; I saw a
| 1990ish Toyota Pickup next to a late model F-150 and the hood
| of the Ford was almost as high as the roof of the Toyota.
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