[HN Gopher] How to find time to learn after work (2017)
___________________________________________________________________
How to find time to learn after work (2017)
Author : dhfs
Score : 153 points
Date : 2023-08-28 11:19 UTC (11 hours ago)
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| dxxvi wrote:
| You can't. So you learn while you are working (even when what you
| want to learn has nothing to do with your work). Of course, that
| can only be applied for office jobs.
| dlisboa wrote:
| Companies should devote actual work time for studying, because
| relying on personal time is not just unethical, but inefficient.
| It's way cheaper to pay people to study in-house than paying for
| outside training or bootcamps.
|
| Not everyone can (or want) to study this way, but devoted focused
| time give you far more benefits than one hour a day randomly
| whenever you can squeeze it. You can read most books (even
| technical ones) in under 8 hours, that's a single work day's
| worth. It's very likely your employees are wasting more than that
| over a two-week period on other things.
|
| That requires someone who's driven to learn, who would appreciate
| this time for what it is (it's not vacation), but would foster an
| environment where people were constantly trying to improve
| themselves and apply those things to the work (because that's the
| best way to learn).
|
| I study like crazy on my off time, mainly because I love
| learning, but it's definitely bordering on unpaid labor since I
| get all the best ideas after hours.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| Totally agreed.
|
| This was my policy with my staff. I straight up told them they
| can and should take a couple hours a week (tried to start small
| to make it achievable) on personal development, whether that's
| reading books, taking courses, etc. I'd even try and brainstorm
| with them on ways to spend the time.
|
| Funny thing is, with one or two exceptions, few did it because
| they always felt something else was more urgent during the
| day...
| sanderjd wrote:
| I think this is sort of like unlimited vacation time
| policies: if you really want people to take advantage of it
| because you really believe in its value, you actually have to
| constantly nudge many, maybe most, people to do it.
|
| In the case of training / education, a good solution may be
| to provide more structure. Get a group of people to sign up
| for an actual structured class (or run one yourself), and set
| the expectation that they actually go to the meetings and/or
| do the work for it. Just "figure out some time to read some
| books on your own" will work for some people, but lots of
| people thrive on more structure than that.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| Another commenter also made a very good point: you've gotta
| let off the gas a bit. If everyone is going flat out, the
| surrounding pressures will cause people to prioritize being
| responsive to those pressures.
|
| But that requires a fundamental change in organizational
| productivity culture and means this kind of policy probably
| needs to be implemented -- and critically, measured -- at
| the corporate level so people collectively recognize that
| learning time is sacrosanct.
|
| No big deal!
| sanderjd wrote:
| Yep, and this is another way in which it reminds me of
| vacation policies. People have trouble imagining when
| they'll be able to take time off when the foot is always
| on the gas. So even if managers are truly bought in to
| the idea that time off is actually critical to a
| productive workforce (and I think most leadership I've
| worked for actually does buy this), it's still easy to
| create an environment where that doesn't happen.
| ghaff wrote:
| I think a lot of employees also convince themselves that
| if they unplug for a long vacation (which used to be
| pretty much inevitable), their career will be hosed or
| the company will fall apart.
|
| I took a number of month long vacations before there was
| much in the way of internet and I had people come up to
| me and basically be in astonishment that I could do that.
| ghaff wrote:
| The advantage of going to conferences, taking in-person
| courses, etc. (in addition to the hallway track) isn't so
| much that they're efficient--they're not really--or that
| they're something of a (relatively) cheap perk that a lot of
| employees appreciate, but that they really do immerse you in
| something that you might otherwise do glancingly "when you
| get around to it."
| [deleted]
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| > Companies should devote actual work time for studying
|
| I like to think that IT workers learn on the job all the time,
| although usually only relevant to the current task at hand.
| But, I've always browsed sites like HN during work hours
| (instead of going outside to smoke for example), possibly too
| much, and consider it to be self-study.
|
| It's resulted in me knowing a little about a lot of things, I
| don't know if it translates to actual skills or career
| advancement but at least it makes me feel smart. ish.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| I'm with you and if you employ good people this naturally
| happens when they're not pushed to the limit for a period of
| time. If your team is at 70% capacity for a month, a number of
| them will take the downtime to learn.
| mkl wrote:
| For me, energy is more of a problem than time. I'm so exhausted
| in the evening it's hard to make progress with learning or
| technical projects.
| jossclimb wrote:
| Don't find the time to learn after work, learn during work
| (unless you work in a different industry, such as construction).
| tomerbd wrote:
| There is an alternative - give up, surrender, don't fight it.
| Don't learn, don't worry, be happy.
| thom wrote:
| Awful lot of lede buried in the "Read 3 books: 12 hours" here.
| Transpire7487 wrote:
| Get up at 6am. Get kids ready for school. Help my wife with any
| chores around the house for a bit. Start working. Lift on my
| lunch break in my home gym. Back to work. Kids come home. Feed
| them. Help with homework. Do something with them outside weather
| permitting. Put them to bed, read to/with them. Get lunches ready
| for tomorrow. Load the dishwasher. Load the laundry. My turn to
| walk the dog. Be mentally and physically drained. Hopefully this
| all gets down by 9:30 so I can get to bed before 10 and get
| enough sleep to start it all over again.
|
| Thank God I don't commute.
|
| If you want to work after work - don't have kids.
| pluijzer wrote:
| "Help with homework", I have seen this in movies. Is this a
| cultural thing? I don't know any parents that help there
| children with homework.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| My kids are in elementary school now and all homework except
| reading is optional. However, I have them do their homework
| then I review it when I'm done with work. Any concepts they
| don't understand I go over with them. It's usually 5-10
| minutes per night per kid.
|
| If I didn't do this my oldest would have easily flunked math
| last year. But just a few minutes per night of making sure
| she understood the concepts was the difference between that
| and her acing it.
|
| I started this because we had a teacher that was really bad
| at noticing if one of our kids was understanding things or
| not. For example, we got worksheets back from school where
| _everything_ was done incorrectly and there was just a giant
| star on it. Fuck that.
| unshavedyak wrote:
| Not sure what other regions are like, but i believe this is
| more necessary the less children receive adequate attention
| in the school setting. Ie overfilled schools warrant more
| individual time outside of school.
|
| Without "help with homework", the child may have gotten no
| individual instruction/teaching, so how are they expected to
| learn?
|
| Even beyond that though there's the possibility of needing
| more and/or unique care. Parents are the end-of-the-road for
| ensuring that they raise a capable, educated human. Some
| children just struggle in standard school settings.
| badpun wrote:
| I was in classes that averaged 30 chilren per class. I
| haven't gotten any individual instruction/teaching, and did
| just fine until high school math kicked in (bear in mind,
| this was Polish high-school math, and in a class that
| focuses on math), when I got lost and needed help of a
| tutor. But the other 98-99% of my school time, I was
| completely fine on my own. Also, I don't think I was any
| kind of exception.
| unshavedyak wrote:
| Not sure what your point is? Ignore the child because
| Badpun was fine?
|
| It honestly sounds like you're arguing against "Interact
| with your child, help them if you think they need it",
| which seems.. odd. You could perhaps be arguing that
| parents are wrong usually, and should go against their
| intuition on helping the child - but that's also a mixed
| bag.
| badpun wrote:
| I'm arguing that school's difficult level is set up for
| children to manage on their own just fine. Also, managing
| on their own means learning grit, figuring out what to do
| when you're stuck, learning how to find information etc.
| If a parent is hand-holding their child through their
| school experience, they may be taking away a chance to
| develop these skills in their kid.
| unshavedyak wrote:
| Agreed, but who else can make that judgement? Certainly
| you can't accurately make blanket decisions for all
| children, right? Who is the last in line, the final
| judgement, then?
|
| No one is saying parents should hand-hold and hurt their
| children by way of robbing them of essential experiences.
| What i _am_ saying, though, is that parents are the last-
| mile. The only ones who are ultimately responsible.
|
| It sounds like you're ignoring a very wide gulf between
| doing nothing and doing the homework for children. Kinda
| sounds like you advocate sink or swim style learning.
| Which works great for those who swim, perhaps. Less so
| for those who sink.
| pluijzer wrote:
| I've misspelled 'their', maybe my parents should've helped me
| with my English ;)
| DrThunder wrote:
| Homework shouldn't exist anyway. Maybe, for higher level high
| school classes it makes sense. There's no reason to be giving
| homework to elementary and middle school kids. They get them
| for 8 hours a day, they don't need to be spending more time
| on school stuff after school.
| hk__2 wrote:
| > Homework shouldn't exist anyway. Maybe, for higher level
| high school classes it makes sense. There's no reason to be
| giving homework to elementary and middle school kids. They
| get them for 8 hours a day, they don't need to be spending
| more time on school stuff after school.
|
| Yes, also because it creates inequalities very early
| between children with parents who can afford spending time
| helping them (or paying someone to do so) and those who
| can't.
| DrThunder wrote:
| I didn't think of that one but that is a consideration as
| well. Children don't have the attention span to be
| working on school work for 8+ hours a a day anyway.
| Additionally, they should be developing through
| play/socializing just as much, if not more, as in-
| classroom and paperwork time.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| I help my kids with homework, 5 minutes here and there.
| Seems like that shouldn't be too hard for most people,
| unless they literally never see their kids.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| I help my kids with their homework. I don't do it for them,
| or anything like that. My mom helped me with mine when she
| could.
|
| Is that weird?
| teddyh wrote:
| Culturally normalized cheating. Also gives advantage to those
| with rich parents who can afford the time.
| flippinburgers wrote:
| I found the person who doesn't have kids.
|
| Nothing about helping someone better understand something
| is cheating. Helping your own child? That is just natural.
| I find what you said revolting.
| teddyh wrote:
| If parents "help" kids with homework, the teacher will
| get a misleading view of what the kid has learned and is
| capable of. Other kids, lacking this "help", will get
| worse grades.
|
| If you want to argue that the teacher _understands_ that
| parents are helping their kids with the homework, then:
|
| 1. Why aren't teachers sending study aids, pedagogical
| material, etc. _to the parents_ , on order to aid in the
| further education of the kids? Why are teachers
| universally acting as though kids are supposed to do the
| homework on their own?
|
| 2. This would still only help kids with rich parent who
| can afford the time to be a part-time teacher to their
| kids.
|
| In summary: If teachers assume that kids do all their
| homework themselves, unassisted, then "helping" is
| (culturally normalized) cheating. If teachers instead
| assume that kids get help from their parents, it would be
| burdening kids with poor and/or busy parents with a
| severe disadvantage.
| hyggetrold wrote:
| How old are you, which country do you live in, and...do
| you yourself have children?
| thrwawewa77777 wrote:
| You're dying on a very strange hill. Yes, children that
| have active and engaged parents have an advantage over
| those who do not. "Cheating" implies that the parents are
| doing the homework for the child without the child's
| involvement. Of course, that's not what is happening, and
| I'm sure you know that.
|
| I'm sure you also know that not all school districts,
| teachers, and children are equal. Some are funded better
| than others, some are better trained than others, and
| some learn in different ways than others. If my child is
| struggling for one reason or another, I am going to be
| engaged in several ways. First, I may speak to the school
| and/or the teacher to understand the details. Second, I
| may speak to my child about their assignments and offer
| to explain unclear concepts to them. I won't take a
| pencil and start solving the problems for them.
| teddyh wrote:
| > _You 're dying on a very strange hill._
|
| Please don't do that here.
|
| > _children that have active and engaged parents have an
| advantage over those who do not._
|
| You're not answering my questions, or responding to my
| summary. Either teachers are aware of this - in which
| case teachers should logically help the _parents_ , not
| arbitrarily assigning homework to kids - or teachers are
| _unaware_ , in which case parents helping kids is skewing
| teachers' perceptions of the kids' abilities - i.e.
| cheating. I made the charitable assumption that teachers
| are acting reasonably based on what they know.
|
| > _I won 't take a pencil and start solving the problems
| for them._
|
| But this is what the stereotypical, commonly depicted,
| behavior is. It may not be universal, but I am sure it is
| not uncommon.
| consoomer wrote:
| It's cheating to help a 7 year old understand how to do
| basic math? Because the alternative is them staring at a
| paper and writing random numbers down.
| teddyh wrote:
| The understanding should happen _in school_. Homework
| should be only for things that have already been learned.
| [deleted]
| ghaff wrote:
| If the learning is already complete then any homework
| seems like utterly unnecessary busywork.
| teddyh wrote:
| There's learning, and there's practice. Both are
| necessary.
| ResearchCode wrote:
| Practice during school hours is more than enough. Primary
| education is not so demanding that you need more to
| succeed.
| teddyh wrote:
| In which case homework should be wholly unnecessary.
| ResearchCode wrote:
| It is, unless you spend too much time in a lecture format
| with too little deep practice. Taking work home is not a
| good solution.
| liotier wrote:
| It sure would be nice and just if the schools had the
| means to provide the personalized tutoring most children
| need to understand. Reality is that the parents do that -
| and yes, it is an advantage to children with parents able
| to invest time and skills in their education.
| lubutu wrote:
| I've heard that some well-off parents will even send
| their children to schools with attendance fees...
| pluijzer wrote:
| The thing is, what if your parents aren't educated.
| Because of lots of reasons, my parents didn't even attend
| high school, they wouldn't have been able to tutor me
| after I was 10. I really think tutoring should be done in
| school else it would be very difficult to rise above your
| previous generations. Also, children should play after
| school, not do more work IMHO.
| blogornot wrote:
| So, you're suggesting we limit everyone's potential so a
| few uneducated/poor families don't feel left behind?
| That's ridiculous.
|
| Should schools offer extra tutoring and support for kids
| and families that need it? Sure. Should people limit what
| they learn at home or out-of-school? No.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| They're children, not some neural network you can train.
| They're all going to learn at different rates, and
| individualized education in a school setting is simply
| not possible. You're lucky if there's a breakdown by
| remedial, regular, and advanced classes. Even within
| those, kids are going to struggle and need some help
| outside of class time.
| teddyh wrote:
| Is this "help" meant only to be available to kids with
| rich parents, as it is now? Or is the school at fault for
| not being willing, or able, to teach all kids to an
| acceptable degree?
| blogornot wrote:
| What is your obsession with correlating good parenting
| with generational wealth? You can be poor, have
| relatively uneducated parents and still be taught by
| them.
|
| My father died when I was five. My mother never finished
| high school and worked in a medical factory. She still
| found an hour to try an teach me and help me learn (even
| when I was beyond her upper skill limit).
| teddyh wrote:
| When "generational wealth" correlates directly with
| "availble hours to spend with the kids", then it matters
| a great deal. It's great for you that _your_ parents did
| not have to work every waking hour to afford food and
| living space, but many are not as lucky.
| stevofolife wrote:
| I'm surprised to see that you think there is a clear
| dichotomy between what can only happen at school and at
| home when it comes to learning.
|
| You'd be even more surprised to learn that learning can
| happen anywhere, anytime and from anyone in any kind of
| form.
|
| Helping kids at home with school work as a parent is not
| only accessible to rich families. You should help your
| kids when they really need it regardless of your
| socioeconomic background.
|
| Now if you're talking about personalized/paid tutors
| outside of school, then yes - it's much more accessible
| to richer families but there is fundamentally nothing
| wrong that. What you decide to do with your kids outside
| of school is your choice.
| teddyh wrote:
| A person's "socioeconomic background" may dictate that
| they don't have _time_ to spend many of their
| vanishlingly rare non-working hours on being a teacher. I
| 'm surprised to see you assume that _everyone_ has this
| kind of time. I assure you that they do not.
| bcrosby95 wrote:
| Not everyone does but it's not something restricted to
| the rich like you said in your first comment. Growing up,
| my wife had a lot of help at home and she came from a
| middle class, dual income household. I came from an upper
| middle class household and my parents were so busy
| working so they could keep up with the Joneses that I
| never had any help whatsoever with my homework.
|
| I'm not going to deny that schools can probably do
| better, but telling people you need to be rich to help
| your kids with school is, in my experience, not true. I
| think the bigger problem for many is relationship
| dynamics - most parents I know lack the patience to help
| their kids with homework.
| p1esk wrote:
| So what do they do in school all day?
| barry-cotter wrote:
| They are exposed to the material on which the sorting and
| ranking will be done.
| ghaff wrote:
| Because everyone has personalized tutors at school.
| p1esk wrote:
| I didn't have tutors or parents helping me with homework
| when I was in school. Also, bad grades were not tolerated
| in my household, so I had to keep up.
| blogornot wrote:
| You had a household where bad grades were not tolerated,
| but no support in achieving better grades? Sounds like a
| crappy household/parenting. That doesn't mean everyone
| else should have a crappy household or parenting
| philosophy because you managed to get through it.
| melagonster wrote:
| I do not call this is cheating. but this is a crazy
| advantage of children. some kids never learned learning
| is important, parents can let deep in their mind.
| teachers have some chance, but there are too many kids in
| classroom.
| granshaw wrote:
| The alternative is, you know, the school actually
| teaching well enough that they understand it without your
| help
| lemper wrote:
| around me, only kids whose parents are illiterate and/or busy
| make a living who don't get helped by their parents to do
| their homework and study. so, yes. cultural thing.
| rco8786 wrote:
| This is generally representative of my day also
| pizzafeelsright wrote:
| Working in the office or home my daily schedule was: Wake
| 4:45am
|
| Breakfast
|
| Work
|
| Play with kids while (slowly) teaching, working side projects.
|
| Eat and Post dinner tasks (bedtime stuff)
|
| Learn/Build for 15-60 minutes during wind down.
|
| Bed at 10pm
|
| Learning is done while at work, during naps, weekends.
|
| Working after work is possible. Having kids brings clarity to
| our priorities. Mine at the moment is to maximize peace and
| stability.
| Transpire7487 wrote:
| How can you work on side projects while playing with your
| kids? My kids get 100% of my attention because otherwise it
| ends up more like being 0%. I can't learn the next whiz-bang
| framework while inventing storylines for plying with Batman
| figures or playing hide and seek.
| nerdface wrote:
| Exactly this. I have three kids and a dog. There is zero spare
| time. I typically sit down for the first time at 9pm at which
| time I'm so exhausted that learning is not really possible. I
| may get to read for 30 mins to an hour before I crash.
| consoomer wrote:
| Here's mine:
|
| Wake up at 4AM. Stretch Achilles (gets stiff when I sleep),
| make a coffee and check emails/prep for the day in my notebook.
| From 4:20 to 5AM I run 5K and then shower. From about 5AM to
| 7AM I work on my own stuff/learn/whatever. At 7AM I wake up the
| wife and help get kids ready for school. I walk with the kids
| to school at 8AM. From 8:30 to 3PM I work on my stuff and have
| lunch somewhere in there. I walk to the kids' school and pick
| them up at 3PM. Work on my stuff until 5-6PM. Help out with
| dinner, kids, play, etc. Put kids to sleep around 9PM.
| stevofolife wrote:
| "Work on my stuff until 5-6PM". Nice. Slim chance for me.
| Balgair wrote:
| You get less than 7 hours of sleep a day?
| consoomer wrote:
| Yeah--- seven days a week. I do the same routine on the
| weekend.
| jebarker wrote:
| Are you self-employed?
| consoomer wrote:
| I am, but that's irrelevant. I became self employed because
| of my lifestyle. I don't think I ever could have done it
| otherwise.
| strikelaserclaw wrote:
| The trick is to learn during your working hours. I generally
| subtract one hour each day from the time i do actual work for
| my company and put that time towards learning. You'd be
| surprised at how in the long run i'm actually doing much better
| than my peers. I think this is because fundamentally, there is
| a large percentage of work that is just muscle memory. I'm
| speaking as a senior software engineer but 30% of my work is
| design (this actually involves the most research and thought, i
| put 100% of my focus here), 50% is just coding (after many
| years on the job, if i design it correctly, it should mostly be
| muscle memory and coding from the design) and 20% meetings.
| That 50% of coding, that is where you can slack off and use
| that time for self improvement.
| wonderwonder wrote:
| This really is it. Most knowledge / white collar / software
| developers (not all) have downtime during the day. We are
| posting on HN during work hours. Its within the realm of
| reality to pare off an hour 3x a week to learn. Now I
| generally spend that hour doom scrolling, but if I was
| dedicated I could absolutely study, thats on me.
| TiredGuy wrote:
| One thing I realize while reading this is that, having recently
| signed up for a local gym, I'll lose that "alone time in the
| home gym", where I would often listen to podcasts and watch
| videos while I lift. Sure, I can get some headphones and lug my
| phone around at the local gym, but it's certainly not as
| conducive to learning as having a screen set up that I can walk
| around and view as I work out.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Same. Though at least biking the kids to school in a cargo bike
| helps with exercise (but not as good as lifting).
|
| I understand now how people stagnate in midlife.
| granshaw wrote:
| Love 'em or hate em, Kids suck up ALL of your time
| balaji1 wrote:
| > I understand now how people stagnate in midlife
|
| Only way to gain some advantage is to delegate/hire help.
| Which is beyond the reach for most ppl. At the same time,
| there is a lot more filler admin-work for adults.
|
| Wondering, are kids (after a certain age) more helpful around
| the house? So parents get back time?
| [deleted]
| irvinej00 wrote:
| I usually do it after dinner. 30 minutes at minimum. They should
| have mentioned the book ultra learning, it has some major
| insights
| dahwolf wrote:
| The first hack is to be honest with yourself. Everybody is busy
| but at the same time people easily spend 3-5 hours on their
| phone, which used to be TV. Most people do have time. So be
| honest with yourself and look at that weekly usage report.
|
| It's OK if it looks bad, it looks bad for most of us. I'm just
| saying to acknowledge uncomfortable facts.
|
| Whether you have the energy to use that time differently is
| another matter. I can share that it will become ever harder as
| you age. It's a typical tech/knowledge work problem. Pay is good
| but the price is high.
|
| I have friends having many different professions and their skill
| set is largely stable over time. The idea that one must make
| daily effort in their free time to learn new things and do side
| projects is ludicrous to them.
|
| That's the nature of tech. Complain all you want but it's not
| going away. So stop complaining and be pragmatic. Don't learn
| random things, make a short list of things that count. That are
| marketable and in demand. Next, cut each topic up into tiny
| tasks. Make it achievable.
|
| Do your React "hello world" on day 1. Spend a few minutes on it
| in the evening and then reward yourself by going back to your
| Netflix. Read one deep article. Solve one bug. Do tiny stuff and
| do it all the time. Keep the train moving. The only thing that
| matters is that it's moving, don't worry about how much it moves
| on any given day.
| Decabytes wrote:
| I've found that if I really want to learn something, I just get
| up an hour early, makes some coffee/tea and get to it. It's the
| only thing I can control with any certainty. The quiet time while
| everyone is asleep provides a distraction free environment.
|
| I also like giving my most productive/energetic time to my own
| projects/learning, as opposed to work, but that is just me.
|
| After work time is for dinner, family, and fun projects that I
| don't need additional motivation for
| pwpw wrote:
| Spot on advice. I am not a morning person whatsoever, but
| investing time in myself during the mornings before work is how
| I gradually switched from accounting into software engineering.
| When the 2020 lockdown happened, I of course no longer had to
| commute to work. Rather than using the time gained for more
| sleep, I took advantage of the opportunity and doubled my
| morning learning time. Now that I'm a software engineer, I use
| that time to continue refining my craft because there's plenty
| more for me to learn!
| tzhenghao wrote:
| Same. When I was at my first SWE job after college, I'd get up
| at 6am and try to beat Chicago traffic to be at my desk at 7am.
| That's when I'd pull up HN or my list of technical topics I'd
| like to learn, then go for it until my teammates arrive. Rather
| shamelessly, I even had Leetcode open and went through
| exercises weeks before I left the job. Good reflex training
| having to force close it right around 8:30am though :)
| bluedino wrote:
| >> I just get up an hour early, makes some coffee/tea and get
| to it.
|
| This works well for me for getting a headstart on the workday,
| but I can't seem to "learn" anything in either the first hour
| or so in the morning, or the last hour or so before I go to
| bed.
|
| Plus, with the latter, if it's anything interesting, it keeps
| me up at night.
| __MatrixMan__ wrote:
| I find it's the opposite. Once I've acquired momentum for my
| workday I can't really focus outside of that domain until I
| shed that momentum, which can take hours, and then it's sleep
| time.
|
| Mornings are the only time I can learn what I want to learn
| and not what the man wants me to learn.
| brightball wrote:
| Yep. Motivation will make you find time.
| criddell wrote:
| I'm tempted to do this but I also know that the extra hour of
| sleep is likely a more productive and healthy use of that
| time. I'd probably take the time from just about any other
| part of my day.
|
| Of course, YMMV.
| cheschire wrote:
| I learned a similar concept in a drivers ed course many moons
| ago. The only space around your car that you have any control
| is in front of you. Granted you don't have _complete_ control,
| but your decisions do impact how close people are to your front
| more often than the other sides.
|
| And what you're describing for time management is similar. You
| have influence over how much space you leave between you and
| the things in front of you on your calendar, but you'll never
| have much control over the end of the day, and how exhausted
| the final events of the day end up making you feel.
| georgeburdell wrote:
| Just me personally, but I have significantly more trouble
| getting up early than staying up late. My family obligations
| end around 10pm (my toddlers are night owls too) I naturally
| arise at 8am, and I would spend 30-45 minutes trying to go to
| sleep 90 minutes earlier and wake up at 6:30 instead. It's over
| an hour if I try and wake up at 5 and I am likely to sleep
| through my alarm. I tried this for weeks and it did not
| improve.
|
| By contrast, staying up to 12-1am is effortless and I get a
| solid 2-3 hours of independent time to catch up on work or
| learn
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Can relate. Recently I have grown some interests in building
| Neverwinter nights EE modules so I get up early to read DND
| source books and look at the scripts of the official campaigns.
|
| After work usually there is too much noise to get a large chunk
| of time. I do have 60-120 mins after my kid falls to sleep but
| I'm always in a gameplay only mentality during that time.
| mrits wrote:
| Morning is best for me as well. I'd also add that I'm not able
| to get very much more learning done with endless free time than
| when I worked full time.
|
| After a few weeks of a study plan and the motivation fades I
| find it really hard to "learn" for more than a few hours a day,
| which I was able to do while working full time.
|
| It probably depends on your financial state and other
| motivating factors as well. It was easier to be motivated when
| I was poor in college than as a 40 year old that could do
| whatever I wants whenever I want.
| smoe wrote:
| I have also discovered that in the morning before other duties
| works best for me although I have never considered myself a
| morning person.
|
| At night it is much more difficult to be consistent with a
| habit, with things coming up spontaneously (e.g. friends
| wanting to go out for dinner), time for family and also
| tiredness after working all day varies a lot. Whereas in the
| morning it was much easier to just block 1-2 hours with nobody
| interrupting and while I might not be the most
| productive/energetic at that hour, it is pretty much
| consistently the same every morning.
| xattt wrote:
| Waking up early works but only if your kids don't have a
| variable time range, say 5:30 - 7:00, when they get up :)
| jebarker wrote:
| Or if you have children or pets that still occasionally wake
| up needing something in the middle of the night. Once you've
| been up randomly for 30 mins somewhere between midnight and
| 3am, getting up at 4am is much less appealing
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| Haha First thing I thought when I read this. Waking up early
| to have some free focus time is what I _used_ to do. Now I
| can sometimes squeeze some late nights but not as productive
| cause I am half dead by then.
| sanderjd wrote:
| To some extent it works for me to take like an intuitive
| estimate for the rolling average of earliest kid wake up
| time over the last couple weeks, and then subtracting an
| hour and a half. But this doesn't work with infants or for
| like a month around both daylight savings time switch.
| yoyohello13 wrote:
| Once they become teenagers, you'll have plenty of time in
| the morning before they wake.
| DoingIsLearning wrote:
| That's my mistake now, I keep making new ones. :)
| mrweasel wrote:
| Children are fun, but they will get in the way of
| productivity. Get up early, they learn that at get up as
| well. Trying to work in the evening, I'm getting to old to
| work past 20:00.
|
| Sadly my most productive time, the time where I feel like
| doing the most work, is between 13:30 and 18:00, which has
| a pretty big overlap with "picking up kids, getting dinner
| ready and other household chores".
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _Sadly my most productive time, the time where I feel
| like doing the most work, is between 13:30 and 18:00,
| which has a pretty big overlap with "picking up kids,
| getting dinner ready and other household chores"._
|
| Me too, I almost blurted out something like this to wife
| today - that I can't help it, my best hours seem to be
| between ~13:00 and 19:00, which is _exactly_ the time
| that 's torpedoed by a series of distractors like
| "dinner", "picking kids up from facilities", and
| everything else that's going on. By the time we're clear
| of all that, I'm too mentally or emotionally drained to
| do or enjoy anything.
| sanderjd wrote:
| haha yep. You can chart my level of productivity and ambition
| as an exact correlation with my kids' age and sleep
| stability. Not to mention daylight savings shifts screwing
| everything up twice a year :)
| CalRobert wrote:
| Not to mention that any noise louder than a whisper and they
| wake up (happily) screaming about how daddy's up and is it
| time for breakfast and what are we doing today and can we [go
| to space/get an elephant/move to Paris/...]?
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| I envy those who can wake up on schedule.
|
| In my natural state, I wake up randomly between 09:00 to 12:00;
| the only way I can wake up earlier, or at specific time, is if
| _someone else_ forces me out of bed, and makes sure I don 't
| fall back asleep within the next 15 minutes. I've been like
| this for as long as I remember. So even without kids and their
| adjustable schedules (ready to get up as early as 04:00, but
| waiting for us to wake up until ~06:30), to get in that morning
| hour of learning, I'd have to ask my wife to wake me that hour
| earlier - which already defeats the point of having alone time.
|
| And even if, my brain never really wakes up until ~12:00 -
| 13:00 anyway.
|
| Having your biological clock stuck in an opposite timezone to
| everyone else sucks, but you only learn how bad once you start
| a family.
| yurishimo wrote:
| I want to say thank you for sharing your experience. As
| someone who also feels forced to function due to outside
| pressure, it's interesting to hear others talk about their
| experiences.
|
| One thing I've naively assumed, is that having kids will
| awaken some instinctual facet of my psyche to respond to the
| stimuli inherit in having young children. Maybe that is still
| _likely_ true, but your experience was that nothing about
| your internal clock fundamentally changed?
|
| Today is a perfect example. It's 10pm currently and I need to
| wake up in 9 hours and be walking out the door in 9.5 to make
| it to the office in time. On the 3 days I do not go to the
| office, I don't roll out of bed until maybe 15 minutes before
| our daily stand up at 9:30am. Even then, I might just get up
| with enough time to go to the bathroom and unlock my laptop.
| I should be getting into bed now, but I still need to take a
| shower and wind down. I'll be lucky if I'm asleep by
| midnight.
|
| One thing that has changed since I was a kid, is that I can
| fall asleep in just a few minutes if I make a conscious
| effort. Unfortunately, that doesn't translate into better
| sleep quality as a whole, but it certainly takes one piece
| off of the table that many struggle with.
|
| This ended up being ramble-y, but again, thank you!
| Sinnytk wrote:
| And thank you for going on that ramble. Resonates with me
| so much
| warkanlock wrote:
| Interesting observation.
|
| I too often find myself in this oscillation between soaking up
| new knowledge and actually using it. This cycle between
| passive/active consumption is intriguing but might have its
| drawbacks IMHO.
|
| There are moments when I question if I should be buried in
| learning new topics instead of tinkering with what I already
| know. Learning is invaluable, no doubt--certainly better than
| mindlessly scrolling through TikTok.
|
| But it does beg one question: What's the point of incessant
| learning if we're not applying it in any meaningful way?
| presentinmoment wrote:
| I'm switching to a more focused approach about this.
|
| I too love to soak up on new knowledge, regardless of it has
| practical use or not. I just love to learn about things in
| general.
|
| The problem is that I have limited capacity.
|
| So instead of subscribing to dozens of newsletters, listening
| all new episodes of podcasts, etc... I'm reaching for that
| knowledge when I need it.
|
| The flow I'm trying to implement is this:
|
| 1. Want to actually DO something
|
| 2. Look for information about that
|
| 3. (harder) Actually do it.
|
| Whereas before it was (still is):
|
| 1. Learn about ALL THINGS, maybe I'll need it
|
| 2. Don't actually need it, forget 99% of what I read/watched
|
| 3. Want to actually DO something
|
| 4. Look for information about that
|
| 5. (harder) Actually do it.
| derelicta wrote:
| Immo one should be paid to learn after work, because you are
| still learning FOR work. It's all unpaid training and Id gladly
| spent more time with friends than just "staying fit for the
| workplace"
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| Just gonna say: my god I hate productivity hacking culture.
|
| No, I am not going to optimize in additional professional
| learning in my off hours.
|
| I have a life. And I'm allowed to have idle time where I spend it
| just being instead of doing. My existence isn't to be maximally
| productive at all times, and this type of hyper optimization
| isn't going to make me wealthier or happier.
|
| If you're learning for work, learn during work hours. Anything
| else is just free labour.
|
| Edit: as a random ranty example, I recently discovered sites
| specifically for _music_ that supposedly increases productivity.
| We can 't even enjoy _art_ anymore. It 's gotta be art that makes
| us better little cogs.
| [deleted]
| supernikio2 wrote:
| I agree much of this fall under "working for free" but it
| doesn't have to. I for instance, work as a web developer and
| really want to get into making games, which is a huge
| undertaking in itself. It requires deep, productive time of
| learning and experimentation, and I often find myself drained
| after work to tackle such activities.
|
| However, I do feel like working through projects like this and
| coming out the other side with something tangible is a high
| like no other, and I despite how hard it might be, it's really
| invigorating and gratifying.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| Ah but that's a very different thing.
|
| You're treating tech as a hobby and engaging with it
| accordingly.
|
| This piece literally started with:
|
| > My software developer colleagues often ask me where I do
| get all the time for reading all the tech books or articles,
| watching conference talks and listening to podcasts.
|
| Immediately we, the reader, know this isn't about having fun
| in your spare time or learning and building purely for
| pleasure.
|
| It's all about achieving, about being that person that other
| people look to and think "wow, where do they find the time to
| be so productive??"
|
| If it were as you say, I'd have no issues with the piece at
| all.
| ncruces wrote:
| Wether you consider learning a hobby, a chore, or part of
| the job description, is entirely up to you, regardless of
| how close to the topic of paid work it is.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| What?
|
| The things I may want to learn or do in service of a
| hobby or personal interest are very different from those
| topics relevant to my professional life, and the
| motivations and the value I get from it are entirely
| different as well.
|
| And this article is clearly written with a professional
| context in mind.
|
| Unless you think that when he mentioned how his "software
| developer colleagues often ask me where I do get all the
| time for reading all the tech books or articles, watching
| conference talks and listening to podcasts," they were
| marveling at his woodworking hobby?
| squarepizza wrote:
| Startup(s) for company-mandated productivity-enhancing muzak
| incoming.
| DrThunder wrote:
| It's not worth it to me. I learn on the job. Your job really
| should be willing to set aside time for you to learn things. It's
| not mentally healthy for me to continue work related things after
| hours. I need to exercise, rest, spend time with kid etc.
| Otherwise, major burnout will ensue.
| dbalatero wrote:
| I don't think anyone would notice an output difference from
| someone learning on the job either.
| a-french-anon wrote:
| Easy one: have a miserable, recluse life without wife, children
| or future in a mad world. Then, you have all the time in world =)
| nerdchum wrote:
| I don't think you're supposed to.
|
| What's supposed to happen is you learn on the job but that rarely
| happens because unless you graduated from a top 10 school you're
| typically hired to do drudgery that exists due to poor tech
| management.
|
| So if you are actually a normal person in tech with things going
| on in your life you will inevitably fall behind.
| boredemployee wrote:
| I have time, what I don't have is energy. I just can't do
| anything useful after work.
| jcutrell wrote:
| This sounds so exhausting.
|
| I'm all for listening to enriching content while doing dishes
| etc... I have a vested interest in this as a host of a podcast...
| but sometimes, you just need to hear the dishes clink, the train
| wheels rumble, or the sound of the air conditioner while you sit
| idle.
|
| You need space for your brain to expand and recover. Don't fill
| every second, or you will regret it in short order from massive
| burnout, and in my opinion, increased levels of anxiety and a
| sense of never quite being "done" with anything.
| manicennui wrote:
| I have plenty of time to learn after work, but I'm rarely in the
| mood until around midnight when I need to be getting to bed so I
| can start the grind cycle all over again.
| presentinmoment wrote:
| I prefer to be present in the moment.
|
| I'm slowly leaving my phone behind and just trying to be present.
| Actually experience reality and not get my brain busy all the
| time.
|
| Because of that I'd say, just don't try to be productive at all
| times. That "downtime" you're trying to cram another podcast into
| is actually necessary.
| Zababa wrote:
| I get your point, but being present in the subway or the bus is
| worthless for me. When walking it's different, especially if
| there's some nature and not too many people nearby.
| emerongi wrote:
| This is my most important lesson in the past few years. There
| is value in _not_ learning, building, doing all the time.
|
| I like to work and study, but doing either of it for more than
| 8hrs is not sustainable for me. I expect to be writing the
| modern-day equivalent of Fortran when I'm 60. All the young
| bucks will look down on me for not advancing in my career, but
| I think I'll be happy. That's all I need.
|
| Everyone has their own balance point. John Carmack can work
| 12hr days and improve at various subjects continually, so his
| balance point lies somewhere else. Don't try to be Carmack if
| you're not and you can still live a fulfilling life :).
| Nitant wrote:
| >Don't try to be Carmack if you're not and you can still live
| a fulfilling life :).
|
| Thanks, I needed this.
| OnionBlender wrote:
| You might find this interesting, from a guy that worked
| with John Carmack.
|
| http://bookofhook.blogspot.com/2013/03/smart-guy-
| productivit...
| dbalatero wrote:
| Carmack might burn out someday too. Or have a worse mental
| state privately than you might think from casual observation.
| You never know by looking.
| presentinmoment wrote:
| _> I think I 'll be happy. That's all I need_
|
| My thoughts exactly. When I'm about to die, I suppose this is
| all that will matter.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _I like to work and study, but doing either of it for more
| than 8hrs is not sustainable for me._
|
| So, if you're working a proper full-time job, it means you're
| incapable of learning or working on anything other than your
| $dayjob for 5 days a week.
|
| I think this is the root for the "productivity drive" - you
| spend yourself out at work so you can survive, and then...
| there's the rest of your life, that you would also like to
| live, not just experience. For many (myself included) it's
| kind of a trap. Productivity here literally means autonomy -
| the things I do or build or learn after work are literally...
| my life.
| steve1977 wrote:
| I think that's an important bit here. It's like "optimizing"
| sleep with the meaning of getting as little as possible of it.
| No. Sleep is good. Optimizing sleep is getting the proper
| amount your brain needs.
| mrweasel wrote:
| Ensuring that that my brain has downtime is proving very
| intersting. The amount of ideas and concepts I can work through
| with just 30 minutes of down time is frighting . A few days ago
| I need to drive and on the way out my brain just came up with a
| long list of solutions to various problems. On the way back I
| was listing to a podcast an noticed that I was switching
| between focusing on the podcast and my thoughts. As neither got
| full attention both became a bit of a waste of time.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Yeah there's a load of people, especiall in SF or on HN, that
| feel like they should be Doing Something Productive at all
| times. And it's companies that encourage this, e.g. old Google
| by offering on-site gyms, entertainment and food, or what a lot
| of companies everywhere do, offering after-hours "hackathons"
| with pizza.
|
| But your brain needs rest as well. Stop trying to keep up in
| the rat race, all the things you try to cram into your brain
| have a short half-life and will be forgotten or archived into
| the "things to half-remember and you'll need to look up anyway"
| anyway.
|
| I mean if you enjoy listening to podcasts while commuting, have
| at it, I won't judge / you're allowed to have and enjoy things.
| But if you feel like you HAVE to, it'll cause problems down the
| line.
|
| Don't feel guilty about "wasting time" either, if you enjoy
| watching TV, playing video games, or sleeping instead of doing
| a 5 AM run, have at it. Don't deny yourself too much.
| eclipxe wrote:
| Google still has on-site gyms, entertainment,
| food...haircuts, massages, etc. That hasn't changed.
| zogrodea wrote:
| That's a nice username you have, and the advice you're giving
| seems good too.
| safety1st wrote:
| Leaving your phone behind is really where it's at.
|
| Your parent is making this point about how when you go to the
| office, in addition to your commute, there's an extra 30
| minutes of stuff like getting dressed and making coffee.
|
| OK - 30 minutes.
|
| This year, I went from an average of 4.5 hours a day of phone
| time to less than 2.5 (it's still dropping).
|
| Two more hours every day to do whatever I want!
|
| Show me any other "time hack" that saves 14+ hours per week.
|
| I think I'll get my phone time down to 60-90 minutes eventually
| (basically just time spent eating meals alone, plus a few
| essential app tasks).
|
| My days feel positively endless now. I finally read books
| again. 250 pages this weekend on a whim.
|
| You can squeeze a phone addiction or a commute into your day,
| but not both. Of course preferably you have neither...
| kris_lujanovic wrote:
| Finally a topic I mastered. As very very late started and IT
| outsider until recently:
|
| Show up 15 - 30 minutes early to work and pick the most useful
| skill upgrade that will get you promoted or make your job easier
| / make you faster.
|
| This is bare minimum to get constant promotions. Stay 15 min
| after work and do quick analysis what did you do and how to do it
| better.
|
| During work always volunteer for documentation or training. Make
| sure you squeeze little research into both. And do proper
| detailed paperwork for both.
|
| Harass your boss for training, labs, conferences at every moment
| esp when someone compliments either you learning something new or
| your performance / execution.
|
| Study vacations. I have 25 days off and 5 of those are for
| intensive courses. somewhere interesting. This does not have to
| be directly related to job skills. You still have to be social
| and talk to people so language learning and cooking /dancing
| abroad is still beneficial.
|
| Once you train yourself how to do this try not to think and
| stress about it. Learning needs to be intense but with playful
| fun approach and mood.
| wnolens wrote:
| Just take that hour FROM the work day. If it helps your work,
| it's work, and your conscience is clear to engage.
| rom1v wrote:
| > Read 3 books: 12 hours
|
| Definitely not technical books.
| cabbagesauce wrote:
| I thought the same. I'm only 60 pages of a history book with
| tons of references to sources and it took me about 3 hours to
| go through that.
| TheFragenTaken wrote:
| Ugh. Posts like this are well meaning, but destructive. Why would
| you learn after work? Why do you strive towards something? Why is
| it important to learn, and constantly evolve? Are you really just
| doing it, because everyone else are, and you feel like you _have_
| to?
|
| It's poisonous, because you end up blaming yourself because you
| are not living up to constantly changing external demands.
|
| It's okay to say no to what challenges your well-being. Otherwise
| you'd be at risk of losing your own autonomy. Accept your
| limitations, cherish them, and know you don't have to (or even
| can) change them.
|
| I'm not saying you should say no to everything, but not
| everything is necessary.
| wink wrote:
| I didn't get that _at all_. If you are interested in stuff that
| is not related to your work (so learning on the job is out),
| what else would you do?
|
| To me this sounded like the author likes to read and learn
| about things, but these just happen to also be tech. So they
| found a way to make time and describe how. I don't see any
| holier than thou "this is how you must do it", just a simple
| "this works for me". But YMMV.
| BaseballPhysics wrote:
| Yeah except the piece started with:
|
| > _My software developer colleagues often ask me_ where I do
| get all the time for reading all the tech books or articles,
| watching conference talks and listening to podcasts.
|
| They're not talking about learning about woodworking on the
| side, or learning about tech for fun. They specifically
| situated the piece in the world of work right at the start,
| going so far as to present themselves as some kind of
| mysterious marvel that their co-workers have tried to
| unravel.
|
| This is just another tech productivity hacking piece. Good
| ol' workaholic porn, in the same vein as "Wanna get hired?
| Start a dozen side projects!" or "Hack leetcode in your
| remaining waking hours for fun and profit, except without the
| fun!"
|
| It's a trope at this point, and an unhealthy one.
| wiseowise wrote:
| This is the same for all things in life.
|
| Want to have a better partner? Become a gym rat! Work on
| your personality! Want to be make more money in life? Learn
| more, grind more!
| shrimp_emoji wrote:
| The tech things I like to learn about/work on are almost
| entirely anti-lucrative. :D (E.g., low level C stuff, for
| which to get a job in I'd have to relocate to Hyderabad.)
| deliriumchn wrote:
| For me its not about finding time, its about finding will to
| commit and actually do something. Usually I feel burned out and
| tired after work and just want to relax and do the bare minimum
| (watch a movie/play some games etc), not sit and learn another
| tech thing
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> "For example, I'm commuting every day 2x45 minutes to my
| workplace and back home. I need 5 minutes to get to the train
| station with my bike, 10 minutes to wait for the (connecting)
| trains, 25 minutes actually on the trains, 5 minutes to get from
| the train to my working place"_
|
| There's a big one right there. Time lost due to commute times are
| actually much longer than the door-to-door time.
|
| It's not just the 90 min that you're loosing with the commute,
| it's also the context switching before and after the commute:
| checking the weather outside to select the right clothing,
| getting dressed with the right attire that fits(unless you forgot
| to do the laundry), grooming and looking sharp before you go out
| (gotta brush off the dried dirt of the shoes from yesterday's
| rain), walking around your campus/building between your office
| and coffe-machine/water cooler to hydrate, setting up your
| laptop/desk to get in the zone, walking around looking for
| meeting rooms, all this adds up on top of those 90 min to more
| like 120 minutes or even more.
|
| That's 2h/day, or, if we assume 8h work and 8h sleep, that's 25%
| of your leisure time left lost for nothing, just to go to work
| and back. Just let that sink in. 25%! A quarter! One fourth! Even
| though in practice it's worse than that as 8h of work doesn't
| include the mandatory unpaid (in my corner of Europe) 30min-1h
| lunch break, so you're not left with much leisure time between
| work and sleep.
|
| And for me, 25 minutes on the train are not enough time for to
| get in the zone to actually study and learn something. By the
| time I get in the zone, I already need to start packing my stuff
| and get ready to board off the train. Trying to cram study into a
| short train ride brings me more stress than it's worth so I'd
| probably end up scrolling on HN/reddit in that short time on the
| train.
|
| With WFH I can save a huge amount of time by bypassing all these
| dead times that don't benefit me and nor do they benefit the
| company I work for. It's just time wasted that's unproductive to
| both parties. I can quickly jump into work after I wake up, and I
| can quickly jump off work when I'm done and dive directly into my
| hobbies.
|
| I wish companies would understand this and not see WFH as a tool
| or justification for slacking off, forcings everyone commute
| every day to waste everyone's time justifying some mystical "team
| bonding" that happens in the office that boosts everyone's
| productivity.
|
| /rant over
| laserlight wrote:
| I'm happy to see more people taking into account overhead in
| commuting. It drives me crazy when people consider commute time
| as the time it takes in front of the wheel.
| ghaff wrote:
| On the (few) occasions when I go into the city for a customer
| meeting, the commuter rail takes "only" something over an hour
| but, really, we're talking something over two hours from
| getting up to walking into the office when one includes driving
| to the station with _some_ slack, paying for parking, and then
| walking to the office /taking local subway. (Just driving takes
| about the same 2 hours.) A colleague of mine who lives in a
| different city and subscribes to the philosophy of if you don't
| miss one or two flights a year you're leaving too much slack
| jokes that he can get to our downtown office almost as quickly
| as I can--and he's not really off by much.
| cheschire wrote:
| > if you don't miss one or two flights a year you're leaving
| too much slack
|
| Boy do I envy people who can live their life this way. I sure
| can't.
| ghaff wrote:
| Me neither.
|
| For flying, it probably helps that--much as I hate 4am
| pickups--my car service won't really let me cut things
| close in any case. But I also figure it's painful anywat so
| why stack on stress associated with possibly being late.
| philote wrote:
| I don't. It sounds like constant stress.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| I think you can only do that if you're not stressed by it
| and otherwise not afraid of the consequences.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah. You have to make the mental tradeoff that you'll
| save an hour+ of more or less brainless time at an
| airport every time you walk through the door in exchange
| for having one or two additional blown-up or partially
| blown-up trips per year--which will happen to some degree
| anyway for reasons beyond your control.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I was thinking that. It would send me to an early grave if
| I tried it.
| gibspaulding wrote:
| Don't forget the workday is not just 8 straight hours for most
| folks, there's a 30 to 60 minute lunch in the middle of it
| which if you're in the office is 100% wasted time.
| avocabros wrote:
| WFH is one solution, but it's not free in terms of
| collaboration costs. There's a reason no one thinks college is
| better remote, for example. Sure, it's fine for some jobs but
| it's not super obvious that it's a net positive for output.
|
| People can also live closer to work, or use other methods
| (biking, running, etc.) to combine exercise + commute. Many
| studies have indicate that people overestimate the happiness of
| a larger house and underestimate the daily happiness toll of a
| long commute
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> There's a reason no one thinks college is better remote,
| for example. _
|
| You're still young and developing in your college years. By
| the time you're in the workforce at >21 years, you are
| already socialized and more fit to handle remote
| collaboration.
| piva00 wrote:
| > People can also live closer to work
|
| That's getting unrealistic since it's becoming unaffordable
| even for well-paid salaried jobs, it's a non-solution given
| the current housing situation in most of the major cities
| where jobs actually are.
|
| > WFH is one solution, but it's not free in terms of
| collaboration costs.
|
| Why should the employee bear the costs of it though? If
| collaboration is better in-person what can employers do to
| enable that? I shouldn't be paying with my lifetime for the
| eventual benefit the corporation gets with in-person work, I
| surely wasn't happier nor more productive when I had to work
| in crappy open-plan offices with all its distractions: people
| passing by, doors being open/closed, chatter from other
| groups, interruptions from people wanting to ask questions
| right-the-fucking-now, having to work 100% of the time with
| headphones to be able to focus, etc. On top of that I had to
| pay the commute both in cash and time, the only way I'm going
| back to the office is if there's a significant increase in
| pay to compensate the inconvenience.
|
| The increase in pay can come as a 4-day work week as well,
| then I wouldn't mind at all going back to the office even if
| my commute is 2h/day. A completely free day is much more
| valuable than the snippets of free time I get after a work
| day, days I don't have much energy left to do what I actually
| want in my life.
| deckard1 wrote:
| > People can also live closer to work
|
| Not in America. We have a thing called "suburbs" here. That's
| where people live. For cost, quality of life, school, etc.
| reasons. Some cities don't even have a center, such as LA
| which is just sprawl in every direction as far as the eye can
| see. You may work in Santa Monica and your spouse works in
| DTLA. At least one of you is going to have an absolute hell
| of a commute. SV isn't better. Your place of work probably
| _is_ the suburbs. Just not _your_ suburbs.
|
| > no one thinks college is better remote
|
| Says who? My college experience: go sit in a giant auditorium
| with 60 other people and listen to a lecture with no actual
| interaction with the professor. I could have stayed home and
| watched a YouTube video with less distraction and more
| comfort. In college you are entirely on your own to learn the
| material. That's the best time to go remote. I can sit and
| rewind a video until I understand it. I can pause and take a
| break.
|
| > happiness of a larger house
|
| That's probably the last reason you buy a house in CA. But
| you don't have to make that trade-off today. Because remote
| is a thing.
|
| Today I went and took a shit in my private bathroom. I didn't
| have some guy come in and sit down not even 2 feet away and
| start gassing me with his morning diarrhea. I also didn't go
| back to my open office hot desk under the harsh florescent
| lights and try to read my morning email with people walking
| and talking behind me wondering if these people are looking
| at my screen.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> Not in America. _
|
| Not in Europe as well. You can't afford to uproot your
| family just because your new employer is on the other side
| of the city, and yet you're expected to if you want the
| job. A lot of my friends in Germany commute by car to work
| just because they don't liver within sensible
| cycling/public transport distance.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Some cities in europe are running with even worse systems
| than they had in wwii. Like heres a train station that
| eventually takes you to the capital city four times a
| day, and thats it. They ripped out the old tram networks
| already in many cities if they ever even had them at all.
| Some of the cities in south europe it seems like on foot
| is still the fastest way to get around, just as it was
| when the romans built the place, because of how much
| narrow one way gridlock the bus or other vehicles sit in.
| eddd-ddde wrote:
| I for sure believe college is better remote, during lectures
| I feel like a hostage: forced to hear stuff i don't care
| about or already know, forces to hear it four times so the
| people that didn't get can try again, forced to hear it yet
| again the next four days, forced to commute someplace so they
| can grade me based on my "presence", forced to waste focus
| and time working assignments I know aren't worth a thing in
| the real life.
|
| </college-rant>
| ghaff wrote:
| While I don't wholly disagree, that sounds a lot like
| arranging your life around your work rather than the other
| way around. Not that I have a regular uurban office anyway
| (my "official" office if I went in is out in the suburbs),
| I'm not at all sure that would lead me to live in a city
| apartment/condo at this point even if I did.
| rozenmd wrote:
| My "hack" is to wake up earlier (easier said than done, but I
| picked up the habit while trying to get things done before the
| Australian heat kicked in), and work two hours on whatever
| interests me, before my work day starts.
|
| I've shipped several books, and currently run a SaaS product this
| way.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| Start by demanding time at work to learn. That's one of the
| things Works Councils in Germany secure for workers from what I
| understand (different from unions)
| rcardo11 wrote:
| You can't really learn anything just consuming content, you have
| to put the work. This works for keeping up with news and trends
| tough.
| mrweasel wrote:
| Agreed, this isn't learning, this is keeping up to date with
| things. Some of this might lead to stuff you want to learn, but
| that comes on top.
| datadrivenangel wrote:
| Ideally learning should be built into work...
| technological wrote:
| Anyone with 2 kids or more can share there experience please
| CalRobert wrote:
| Have multiple nannies? Boarding school? No idea, let me know if
| you figure it out.
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