[HN Gopher] Labor unions are pushing hard for better pay and hou...
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Labor unions are pushing hard for better pay and hours - and
winning
Author : pg_1234
Score : 45 points
Date : 2023-08-27 20:20 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.cnbc.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.cnbc.com)
| mnd999 wrote:
| The current model of superconcentrating wealth among fewer and
| fewer individuals whilst everyone else gets screwed is not
| sustainable. This had to happen.
| Animats wrote:
| The real break will come when Amazon, WalMart, or McDonalds goes
| union nationally.
|
| That became more likely with the new NLRB rule that employer
| violations of labor law during union organization forces either a
| quick election or the recognition of the union. Here's the view
| from a union-busting law firm.[1][2] They're worried.
|
| [1] https://www.morganlewis.com/pubs/2023/08/new-nlrb-rules-
| favo...
|
| [2] https://www.postal-reporter.com/blog/the-postal-services-
| uni...
| jntvjnvutnuvt wrote:
| There are many right to work states that don't force union
| membership.
| mustafa_pasi wrote:
| Low wages result in economic stagnation. Just compare California
| to Germany for an example. Here in Germany, we have unions that
| put job security above all else including wages. And employers
| that offer job security as a perk rather than offering higher
| wages. Result: an over burdened middle class, little innovation
| and a stagnant economy.
| asdff wrote:
| One can even just look at California itself to make this
| example as there are very high levels of inequality there. You
| certainly see compensation rise astronomically in some
| industries in California and an overall increase of state GDP,
| but at the same time, other industries do not see such rises in
| lock step with inflation brought on by more fortunate groups,
| and as a result the working class are severely rent burdened
| and lack a means to save or pay down debt. Its like there are
| two economies. There is the economy about large numbers, GDPs,
| market caps, stock option compensation packages, increasing
| real estate returns. Then there is the real world economy.
| People selling elote on the street. People working in
| convenience stores. People driving pickup trucks full of tools.
| People looking for the cheapest rent they can find. People
| going to night school at a community college. It seems that the
| former is only able to grow so much at the expense of keeping
| it out of the hands of the latter.
| runnerup wrote:
| 16% of Germans[0] and 16% of Californians[1] are in a union. 7%
| of Mississippians[2] are in a union.
|
| Mississippi vs. California is also interesting. Mississippi has
| far less participation in unions (7% vs 16%) and much less
| regulation for employers to follow. Overall Mississippi looks
| like one of the best places in the USA for employers in terms
| of an accommodating regulatory environment. However,
| Mississippi is languishing compared to even Germany! Let alone
| compared to California.
|
| You chose an interesting two geographies to compare/contrast.
| It looks like 16-17% of Californians are in a union. It also
| looks like 16-17% of Germans are in a union. Perhaps it's not
| the degree of union participation which drives differences in
| economic opportunity between these regions!
|
| 0: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TUD
|
| 1: https://www.bls.gov/regions/west/news-
| release/unionmembershi....
|
| 2: https://stacker.com/mississippi/see-how-much-mississippis-
| wo...
| mustafa_pasi wrote:
| But unions are not all the same. And I was not trying to make
| a point about union membership at all. I was rather lamenting
| economic policy. Some economists and some industrialists
| believe in keeping wages low to remain competitive. This
| thinking is present in Germany but (it seems to me) that it
| is less present in California. In my opinion, the long term
| economic effect of low wages is economic stagnation, even if
| you might remain economically competitive on the world stage.
| Eventually the rest of the world would move on and whatever
| role you were filling would disappear anyway.
| runnerup wrote:
| This seems like a reasonable take on the situation. I've
| personally always wondered about the relative cost of
| "under-employment" (allowing wages to go much lower) vs.
| "partial re-employment" (time and effort needed for
| retraining to other high-paying jobs, moving to those jobs,
| and some % of people who are physically/mentally unable to
| make that transition).
| jntvjnvutnuvt wrote:
| Mississippi, being the poorest state in the union, is as rich
| as Germany (GDP/capita).
| runnerup wrote:
| Median income in Germany was $32,133 the most recent year
| for which OECD has data (2019)[0]. Median income in
| Mississippi was $24,509 in 2019[1]. Mississippi uses an
| unusual amount of slave labor (legally, of course) to
| generate that GDP with fully 1% of their population in
| prisons.
|
| Personally, having spent time in both Mississippi and
| Germany, I think quality of life is higher is Mississippi
| for some people, and it is higher in Germany for other
| people.
|
| 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income#cite_note-3
|
| 1: https://datacommons.org/place/geoId/28/?utm_medium=explo
| re&m...
| candiddevmike wrote:
| Germany's innovation issues stem from its ingrained love for
| growing bureaucracies more so than unions IMO
| prettywoman wrote:
| [dead]
| deprecative wrote:
| I'm so happy for folks who have unions and have gained benefits.
| I know that in the Software Engineering space we think we're all
| ninja elite 100x rockstar developers and we don't want to get
| benefits.
| whatshisface wrote:
| Engineers have always walked a fine line between labor and
| capital because while on one hand they own nothing and do not
| manage anybody, they are also individually valued and work
| directly within (in a sense being at the core of) the planning
| functions of companies.
| lapcat wrote:
| If you can get laid off, then you're not capital.
| kazen44 wrote:
| in classical manufacturing though, most engineers have to
| work together with tool and die makers to actually produce
| the tooling to create the product.
|
| The guys actually physically building the tooling you
| designed to build a product are definitely unionized, and
| have been for a very long time.
| mym1990 wrote:
| In 2022 only about 12% of those employed in the US were part of
| a union...so you are pretty far off from being the only one not
| 'gaining benefits'.
| deprecative wrote:
| I never claimed exclusivity in being treated poorly as labor.
| lapcat wrote:
| Software engineers often have a strange attitude, thinking they
| don't need unions, when pro athletes who make $millions per
| year all have unions. There's a myth that with unions, everyone
| will make the same compensation, but that's not even remotely
| true in pro sports.
|
| The reason to have a union is that no matter how much money you
| make, the owners of the business have more money and power.
| Collective bargaining is a counterweight to the power of
| ownership.
|
| And it's not just about money, it's about working conditions.
| For example, labor unions could fight back against back-to-the-
| office demands, whereas without a union, employees are forced
| to individually consent or lose their job.
| chasd00 wrote:
| > we don't want to get benefits.
|
| Software engineers are the most coddled bunch out there. Our
| benefits are so far beyond the pale it's embarrassing.
| cm2012 wrote:
| Seriously, like big tech has like 6 month standard paternity
| packages now. Try getting that at any other career in the
| USA.
| deprecative wrote:
| Most developers don't work for big tech. Y'all in that SV
| bubble.
| [deleted]
| throwaway914 wrote:
| I have a pretty awful view of this:
|
| In the less complex jobs, they struggle to get things like
| paternity leave and time off. We have those. We should be
| looking at those ridiculous things we think we don't deserve
| and organizing to get them. We could be a leading example for
| the industries that come behind us.
|
| Paid time off is common in softwareland. Let's make it
| mandatory "you must take 4 weeks off minimum a year". We know
| "unlimited time off" is a guilt-tripping farce.
|
| If 1 software dev can add billions of dollars of value to a
| company, we should be getting these ridiculous things. These
| things that seem like coddling us. Maybe even a formula for
| "if i added x% profit, I deserve y% of that"
|
| I think hollywood is ahead of us on compensation formulas
| imo.
| bontaq wrote:
| The part I've been trying to explain to coworkers is that the
| union isn't just for software engineers at the company, but for
| the support staff as well. We have it good but I have seen
| support and sales staff get bullied pretty hard.
|
| Sure you might not even get a raise with a union, but perhaps
| those same benefits of remote work when needed, unlimited
| vacation, and an hour lunch can be extended to every worker at
| the company.
|
| The most expensive workers teaming up with the least expensive
| to give them more power is a good thing, I think.
| VirusNewbie wrote:
| I'm going to go down fighting keeping unions out of software.
| It's the hill i'll gladly die on.
|
| You're welcome to go work at a software union shop, like
| Boeing.
|
| Writing low quality software that kills people, great job
| security even if you are at fault for peanut pay. I'll take my
| non union job any day.
| asdff wrote:
| Nothing like beating on the airplane to make your point,
| otherwise known as a mode of travel statistically safer than
| even merely walking.
| p1necone wrote:
| I agree with your point, but there's a nit I like to pick
| when the statistics of airline safety comes up.
|
| Comparing safety by deaths/injuries per distance travelled
| between different modes of transport does not make sense to
| me.
|
| To prove the point imagine some hypothetical mode of travel
| that can take us to the nearest star - alpha centauri. Now
| imagine that 50% of people that travel via this mode of
| transport die, thats obviously not a risk anybody would be
| willing to take right? But if you use the same statistics
| as we use for aircraft safety it looks amazing, better than
| anything else by far.
|
| Am I saying that aircraft are unsafe? Not at all - they're
| still very safe relative to other modes of transport, but
| the statistics that we commonly calculate to compare them
| seem totally meaningless to me. Comparing deaths per
| distance travelled only makes any sense when comparing
| modes of travel that actually go similar distances.
|
| I also acknowledge that this is somewhat of a regional
| nitpick - it makes a lot more sense to compare aircraft
| with e.g. cars in the United States because taking an
| aircraft vs taking a car to travel between different states
| is actually a choice that many people are making. Whereas I
| live in a small country where there's very little overlap
| between aircraft trips and car trips.
| [deleted]
| mmole wrote:
| This was definitely written by Jeff Bezos on a burner account
| [deleted]
| miffy900 wrote:
| > You're welcome to go work at a software union shop, like
| Boeing.
|
| > Writing low quality software that kills people, great job
| security even if you are at fault for peanut pay. I'll take
| my non union job any day.
|
| Boeing primarily manufactures and designs airplanes. The odds
| of dying while being a passenger on an airplane is about 1 in
| 200,000. Compare that to being a cyclist, which is 1 in
| 3,500. Or a pedestrian which is 1 in 485.
|
| https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/how-safe-is-flying-
| heres...
|
| Putting your stupendously bad comparison aside, I'd say most
| software devs/programmers don't really need to unionise,
| aside from video game devs. 80+ hour work weeks, constant
| burn out, consistently underpaid compared to most other devs
| who just program boring line of business apps; they just get
| treated very poorly.
| deprecative wrote:
| That's fine, you can want to be treated like shit if you like
| it. I know I'd greatly prefer not being under draconian rules
| and getting things like OT pay so that when I'm forced to
| work 80-hour weeks I actually benefit from it. You do you.
| sparrish wrote:
| [flagged]
| prettywoman wrote:
| [dead]
| backendanon wrote:
| Trade a corporate boss for both a corporate boss and a union
| thug, near mafia boss? No thank you.
| Contusion3532 wrote:
| Unions have these things that you might of heard of...
| elections, where you can elect your leadership. How much
| democracy is for employees in a corporation?
| changoplatanero wrote:
| In the union that I was represented by you had to pay extra
| money to be a voting member. So for people like me that
| didn't like the union they still forcibly took some of my
| money but without any chance for me to vote on how they spent
| it.
| kazen44 wrote:
| this depends on the country actually.
|
| A lot of countries have work's council[0] enshrined into law.
| Which actually means you have some form of democratic control
| over what a company wants to do.
|
| i am still bewildered the US has nothing of the sort... in
| any kind of way.
|
| 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council
| whatshisface wrote:
| I can't help but wonder how much of this is "better" and how much
| is wage stickiness in action (inflation has a slower effect on
| pay than on prices because pay increases involve long, drawn-out
| disputes. Economists call this effect "stickiness.").
| II2II wrote:
| Yes, that is an issue. My union (mostly non-tech workers) was
| negotiating for a new contract when the old when had expired 18
| months prior and had been negotiated two or three years before
| that. It was such a long wait that a lot of good people were
| lost in the process, particularly since inflation has been
| abnormally high. It sounds like many other unions in my neck of
| the woods are in a similar situation.
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