[HN Gopher] American megachurches are thriving by poaching flocks
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American megachurches are thriving by poaching flocks
Author : KabuseCha
Score : 44 points
Date : 2023-08-27 17:39 UTC (5 hours ago)
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| [deleted]
| irrational wrote:
| > Bill Hybels, a megachurch pastor felled by sexual-misconduct
| allegations in 2018, was said to parrot Peter Drucker, a
| management guru: "What does the customer consider value?"
|
| So... basically they are businesses selling a product.
| throw1234651234 wrote:
| Except with a little more dishonesty and tax breaks than usual.
| ransackdev wrote:
| Woah woah woah let's not give megachurches extra points for
| things they didn't lead in. Tax breaks yes, more dishonestly,
| no.
|
| If you don't think every business that makes it, and even
| more so for those that make it big, don't have shady dealings
| to thank for getting them there, you should join one of these
| megachurches.
|
| Also, Amazon isn't a church with tax exempt status but I
| remember headlines a few years back something along the lines
| of they paid a whopping 0 dollars in federal tax or something
| just as unbelievable yet actually true.
|
| If anything, churches are looked at harder because they have
| the tax exempt status, so people are looking for abuses of
| that, yet we have corporate entities that can sway the global
| economy skirting taxes in the open and even legally, somehow.
|
| But I get taxed when I make my money, and then again when I
| spend that money, which was already taxed.
|
| There's no difference between a FANG and a megachurch. They
| are both for profit machines that bleed people dry. When the
| church pamphlet has bar charts on the back with quarterly
| projections, and the pastor/whomever lets everyone know that
| they are a few million behind their target, before discussing
| the scripture, their priorities are very clear.
|
| The screens, coffee bars, childcare, and well produced music
| and video, are all there to make you feel special, part of
| something, relaxed, and wanting to come back, next week,
| after you get paid again.
|
| The same way in Mad Man the account execs would take clients
| out to dinner and then to strip clubs to make them feel
| special and relaxed, so they'd later associate good feelings
| when asked to hand over their wallets, megachurches have what
| I listed above. If bowls of cocaine could be legally laid
| out, you'd be handed one while walking in.
|
| Gotta spend money to make money, but they know the high
| rollers and if you pay attention, they don't pay any
| attention to anyone not forking over cash.
|
| Edit: if you want more signal that megachurches are not about
| God, look at how many of the 7 deadly sins they proudly
| embody. Greed. Gluttony. Pride. Those are obvious. Sloth
| probably also obvious. That's gotta mean something right?
| These complexes are tiny cities that sit vacant most of the
| week.
| thomasfl wrote:
| Protestantism and capitalism is basically the same idea. Greed
| is, for lack of a better word, good.
| etna_ramequin wrote:
| Luther's 95 theses literally condemn << indulgences >> as
| promoting greed... I assume you were making a reference to
| Weber's work (the Protestant ethic and the Spirit of
| Capitalism), which happened a few centuries later and has been
| heavily criticised and nuanced since.
| antnisp wrote:
| Calvinism has entered the chat.
| smcin wrote:
| No, Mainline Protestant [0] churches don't aggressively seek
| publicity and converts, compared to evangelicals [1] or
| Catholics.
|
| [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainline_Protestant [1]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism#Terminology
| burlesona wrote:
| It's interesting to observe. Historically, churches were many,
| small, and deeply rooted in particular neighborhoods. The more
| traditional churches heavily emphasized service within the church
| itself and the surrounding neighborhood.
|
| Many churches still operate this way, but mega churches do not.
| They work on economy of scale: the typical visitor or member is
| much less involved than in a small church, but lots and lots of
| small donations still add up to a large budget, so the mega
| churches can have a paid staff to take care of all the things
| that would be volunteer in a normal church. This results in a
| more "polished" experience where people don't have to do anything
| other than show up on Sunday and occasionally chip in a few
| bucks.
|
| This is bad, spiritually, as the entire Christian teaching
| emphasizes service and community so much. But it fits the trends
| in an increasingly consumerist America where most people (a) live
| in indistinguishable commodity suburban subdivisions they don't
| care about, (b) mostly judge their quality of life by their
| hobbies and how much stuff they acquire, and (c) are used to
| commuting to regional facilities for everything they do anyway.
| It lets people feel like they're still part of a "Christian
| culture" even though they've reduced it from a deep life
| commitment to a spectator social club.
|
| Unsurprisingly the mega-churches are very controversial within
| more traditional Christian communities -- they are seen as "not
| real churches," and many question whether their attendees are
| sincere in their faith.
| MrVandemar wrote:
| A flock is, after all, how you refer to sheep.
| mmmpop wrote:
| [dead]
| SkyMarshal wrote:
| Also birds...
| ecshafer wrote:
| And? The comparison is on purpose. The idea of a shepherd and
| their flock has numerous references in the bible and is used as
| allegory, which pre-modern people would've understood.
| MrVandemar wrote:
| Whether Biblical or modern, I find the metaphor particularly
| apt: to describe a group of people easily led, raised for
| exploitation and slaughter.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Curious if members of HN attend any of these megachurches. If so,
| what is the draw?
| celnardur wrote:
| I grew up in a megachurch but I wouldn't call it a
| "megachurch". It (Manchester UMC) is large at about 2500
| members but still does the services in the same format as it
| has been doing since as early as I can remember. However, I
| have been to a couple of "megachurches" with that style of
| service and can comment on the appeal.
|
| Services at a megachurch have almost a laid back rock concert
| type atmosphere. There is a lot of contemporary music played
| and everything else is made to be as "soulful" and engaging as
| possible. It's a very unique atmosphere, but the appeal is much
| the same as something like a country music concert. The
| services are a whole production.
|
| The other advantage big churches have (and I did see this with
| my church growing up) is that larger communities make a lot of
| things easier. It's easier to form service missions, bible
| groups, youth activities, etc, because it's much easier to
| reach a critical mass when you have such a large congregation
| to pull from.
|
| https://manchesterumc.org/
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_United_Methodist_...
| AS37 wrote:
| I don't attend one, but I have stepped foot in some. Compared
| to an 'average' (200 person) church, the big ones have more
| refined music, teaching, and user experience. I guess it's
| easier to put more effort into content when the user base is
| 2,000 or 20,000, versus 200.
| clumsysmurf wrote:
| And its easier to remain anonymous in huge crowds. In a small
| group, you will be forced to connect.
| genter wrote:
| If you're asocial, and want to go to church but avoid the
| social aspect, ironically it's easier to blend into the large
| crowd than to attend a small church. If you're a strange face
| in a small church, everyone is going to start a conversation to
| welcome you.
| mynameisash wrote:
| Years ago, when I would tag-along with my wife at her church, I
| got some perspective on how these mega-churches work. (I don't
| know what the total attendance was at its various locations,
| but I'm guessing it was in the high four-digits?) At least for
| this particular church, the draw seemed twofold:
|
| 1. They were very oriented to young adults (say, <40 years
| old): modern music, chic building/space design, coffee-shop
| feel (especially because people would regularly come in with
| their lattes), and the amazing perk that they had numerous
| rooms for kids of different ages. Kids were treated very well
| and had so much fun in the bouncy houses or whatever, and
| parents could really focus on whatever the message was that
| day.
|
| 2. Critical mass. Being around more people really gives a
| feeling of belonging, and I think it's pretty well-established
| that the big crowds, swelling music, etc., really does elicit
| an emotional response that some people interpret as the holy
| spirit while others simply think of it as a warm, wonderful
| feeling you get going to church. That feeling is definitely
| self-reinforcing for attendance.
| [deleted]
| silisili wrote:
| My wife briefly attended one similar, though far from the one
| of the largest. Large enough to have sheriffs office shut down
| and direct traffic on a large highway at start and end.
|
| One thing I as an observer found weird was the general vibe of
| the church. I don't know if this applies to any but the one I
| was at, so take with a grain of salt.
|
| At this church, every one seemed dress for image. Giant logo
| tight fitting shirts, bleached skinny jeans, spray tans, hair
| gels. Inside, giant TVs and loud music speakers. It felt like
| more going to a concert or club on a Friday night than a
| church.
|
| In contrast, when I was a kid, every man wore a suit or some
| boring button up and slacks or jeans, women would wear a simple
| dress or something similar.
|
| I'm not sure if church has changed that much in the last 20 or
| 30 years, or it's just that one, but I found it rather off-
| putting. It seemed like everyone was there to make it about
| themselves, and less about congregating for a religious reason.
| borner791 wrote:
| I went to one in LA, extended family went for Xmas. It's weird,
| super produced. The back wall was a teleprompter and a timer,
| so they could time this service and start the next.
|
| I don't go to any church, so this was extra over the top.
| nineplay wrote:
| You might find The Secrets of Hillsong on Hulu interesting. The
| first episode spend a lot of time in an NYC megachurch.
| brightball wrote:
| My wife and I went to New Spring Church in South Carolina for
| about 6 years and really enjoyed it. The pastors were great
| communicators and kept my attention much better than churches
| I'd been to in the past. Actually got me curious and interested
| enough to finally read the Bible. I love talking about it now
| too.
|
| The way that I explain it to people is like this. It's
| Christianity 101. They do an excellent job of creating a low
| pressure "come as you are" environment and that is really
| critical. In the same way the people tend to leave jobs because
| of bad management, they often leave churches because of bad
| experiences with some of the members. When you go to a more
| traditional church, there's often an expectation to dress a
| certain way or to feel like you don't want to draw attention to
| yourself. I've heard this referred to as the Christian Pageant
| Show.
|
| A lot of mega churches have called this out and invite people
| to come as they are. Shorts, t-shirts, flip flops. Some people
| dress up. There is no right way to hear the Gospel. As this has
| been called out more, it's had an influence on a lot of other
| churches to realize...you know what, they're 100% right.
| Everybody dressing up is great if they're doing it for the
| reason of "bringing your best to God" but you're creating an
| environment where people feel like they don't fit in if they
| aren't doing that.
|
| Taken a step farther, people will often act like they have it
| all together in more traditional churches. They'll think they
| are supposed to. The reality is that this is supposed to be the
| place where you can share your struggles. You tend to need to
| get involved and get to know people a little bit more before
| you're comfortable doing that in a lot of cases.
|
| Now, I say all that to say this: going to a church like New
| Spring (I can't speak for all mega churches) is an ideal place
| to go if you don't have a church home or don't want a bunch of
| people coming up to you afterwards, inviting you to lunch and
| trying to get to know you. Sometimes that's great, but if you
| just want to walk in and see what this is all about you want
| the same level of pressure you'd feel if you were going to a
| movie theater...zero. This also creates an environment that is
| REALLY easy to invite people into, because you know they won't
| have to worry about fitting in either. It's great like that.
|
| We attended for about 6 years. Volunteered. Tithed regularly. I
| remembered being excited about going to church for the first
| time in my life. I learned all sorts of stuff that I didn't
| know and I actually remembered sermons better than I ever did
| before too. It got through to me, made sense and though it's a
| bigger story for another time...changed my life for the better.
|
| But after 6 years we also realized we just didn't know many
| people. We wanted to go somewhere that had adult Sunday School
| classes, so we changed to a more traditional church.
|
| After having gone through what I call "Christianity 101" I felt
| a lot more like I fit in this environment now. We'd have a
| discussion and I could actually participate instead of sitting
| quietly in the back of the room. I could ask questions, add
| discussion points and even offer AND back up some corrections
| on things that a lot of people thought but weren't really
| biblically supported.
|
| After enough of this, I actually got asked to help teach and
| did a couple of times a month for a little over a year. Really
| liked that too. Prepared and presented just like I would for a
| programming talk and that got really interesting as well.
|
| I go down really strange rabbit holes when I'm researching to
| teach. Eventually, I even started blogging about it.
|
| Like, the origins of Hercules:
|
| https://www.readnotmisled.org/p/was-herculesjewish-biblical-...
|
| Or does the math show that Solomon was potentially depressed?
|
| https://www.readnotmisled.org/p/solomons-country-song
|
| I don't write as often as I probably should, but I'm going to
| try to pick it up a little more in the future.
|
| Anyway, I hope that answers your question. It basically boils
| down to people often not feeling like they fit in the church
| where they are, for one reason or another, and these mega
| churches are designed specifically to create an environment
| where there's no pressure to fit in. There's a lot of appeal to
| that.
| azinman2 wrote:
| As I read the replies, I hear a lot about the experience of
| attending. But what I don't hear about is community. Isn't that
| part of the value of church?
| woodruffw wrote:
| My impression (as a complete outsider) is that these churches
| are replacing community with charismatic faith and
| leadership.
|
| What professional football on TV is to your local
| neighborhood games; a substitution of one human interest for
| a stronger (but arguably less positive) one.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| The more people in the ceremony, the bigger the energy. It is a
| spectacle for even non-believers -- but not much more so than
| watching your local sports team.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| It's creepier.
|
| One of the parts of having a pastor is using that person as a
| spiritual counselor. It's THE core part of their job. If you
| belong to a megachurch, then unless you are a huge donor,
| your pastor will likely never even know your name, much less
| help you out with any issues you might have with faith or
| morality based issues.
| SnorkelTan wrote:
| Seems like this issue could be and probably is solved with
| having more than 1 pastor. The article mentioned a
| subordinate relationship of pastors. There's probably more
| than 1 pastor per church.
| fallingknife wrote:
| They don't delegate at larger churches?
| aliasxneo wrote:
| I believe this line of thinking is actually harmful to many
| pastors. Once a church hits a couple of hundred, the
| single-pastor model completely falls apart. I find that
| churches either figure it out and embrace a mature
| elder/deacon model or they tend to just chew through
| pastors every 3-4 years and wonder why.
| lizknope wrote:
| I'm not religious but one of my coworkers goes to a
| megachurch a few miles from where I live.
|
| I looked up their web site and they have 14 different
| people listed as "pastor."
|
| It looks like it is divided up between a senior ministry
| team, adult and family ministers, care, college, music,
| sports, student ministries. Then there are about 30 elders
| and another 50 deacons.
|
| I just looked at the satellite photos and they have 6
| separate soccer fields. The youth and sports are big parts
| of it. They have 10 different youth sports and 8 for
| adults. Multiple summer camps.
|
| I would never join anything like this but I would also
| never join a fraternity or sorority. It seems like you're
| paying a group to be friends with you but it is their money
| so whatever.
| foobarian wrote:
| Ah so like a professor teaching an intro chemistry class
| at State U, with their 50 TAs. :-)
| ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
| Very good way to meet like minded people in your community.
| veavo wrote:
| https://archive.is/uiJTx
| linusg789 wrote:
| https://ghostarchive.org/archive/gx3Fp
| thestepafter wrote:
| Also, https://archive.ph/uiJTx since I couldn't get past the
| image captcha on archive.is. :|
| pestatije wrote:
| that captcha is useless...once in that page it never goes
| anywhere else
| dingdingdang wrote:
| "The Righteous Gemstones" is pretty much mandatory entertainment
| watch if this subject has any interest. Superbly entertaining (at
| least 2 first seasons, less keen on the 3rd).
| p1mrx wrote:
| Just a reminder to check out your local UU (Unitarian
| Universalist) church if one exists. They're one of the few
| positioned to poach from the huge flock of "nones" without any
| change in belief.
|
| UU is basically the church of _be excellent to each other_ , yet
| whenever I go it's almost entirely old people. It's fun to chat
| and drink coffee with them, but I wonder where all the younger
| atheists/humanists are.
| dr_dshiv wrote:
| > it's almost entirely old people
|
| Amen. That was my experience.
|
| > I wonder where all the younger atheists/humanists are
|
| They've turned to Freemasonry and the Elks. Ha! No, millennials
| don't believe in community organizations. Too creepy.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| Both the Freemasonry and the Elks require a belief in god to
| join, or at least heavily encourage it.
| woodruffw wrote:
| Two of my good friends from college are UU (via their families)
| and I found their whole "thing" pretty interesting and
| positive. I can confirm your anecdote about it mostly being
| older people, though.
| hotnfresh wrote:
| > It's fun to chat and drink coffee with them, but I wonder
| where all the younger atheists/humanists are.
|
| At home getting stoned and playing video games.
|
| ... only half-joking.
| kashunstva wrote:
| > I wonder where all the younger atheists/humanists are
|
| Home, sleeping.
|
| As an atheist, this is a challenge if you're looking for
| community. These religious communities are organized around
| some common understanding of whatever sacred text they claim as
| truth. But it's hard to feel as connected over disbelief and
| scepticism. Or maybe it's all a multifactorial "Bowling Alone"
| problem that crosses religious and secular boundaries.
| p1mrx wrote:
| My observation of UU is that it's not really about disbelief
| and skepticism like an atheist meetup. It's more the
| liberal/progressive ideology wrapped in a church interface.
| They talk a lot about peace and love, and fighting stuff like
| climate change, fascist ideas, and inequality.
|
| Since I moved back to the Midwest (not sure if that was a
| terrible idea), UU feels like a microcosm of the Bay Area.
| atdrummond wrote:
| A subset of the members of my former UU congregation are some
| of the nastiest people in my social media network. The way they
| talk about their conservative neighbors is horrendous and at
| the end of the day it's just trading one set of religious
| precepts for another.
| epicureanideal wrote:
| While at a coffee shop I happened to observe someone from a local
| large church trying to convince someone from a smaller church to
| attend their church instead. Someone who was an influencer among
| their church attending peer group, it seemed.
| smcin wrote:
| Was that spontaneous, or did they seem to have been trained or
| prepared for converting people?
| DueDilligence wrote:
| [dead]
| Animats wrote:
| That's not a church. That's a campaign rally.
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