[HN Gopher] Note-taking apps are designed for storage, not insig...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Note-taking apps are designed for storage, not insight - can AI
       change that?
        
       Author : isaacfrond
       Score  : 75 points
       Date   : 2023-08-25 14:42 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
        
       | Rochus wrote:
       | The word "smarter" or even "smart" doesn't appear in the text, so
       | I guess this is not the claim of the text; I would have
       | appreciated a summary or at least a conclusion. I did not have
       | the patience to read it all, but just skimmed over it and think
       | it's more about information overflow in general.
       | 
       | It's not true that note-taking and well designed apps to do so
       | don't make us smarter. Being smart means "having or showing a
       | high degree of mental ability" (point 1 of 7 in
       | https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/smart). Applications
       | which support our information management increase our mental
       | abilities.
       | 
       | Since I take notes of every meeting, I still know days or even
       | years later what was decided and for what reason, and I can check
       | the arguments afterwards to see if they are still valid and, if
       | necessary, make sure that they are returned to if circumstances
       | change. If I don't take any notes or only keyword notes, I can't
       | do that because after two hours you only remember a fraction of
       | the meeting, and after a day full of meetings you hardly remember
       | any details. I've done big enough projects for long enough and
       | participated in meetings of 2 with up to 50 people in a room, and
       | have been able to observe very well how what kind of notes
       | affected the aftermath of the meeting on individuals.
        
         | Rochus wrote:
         | Ok, now it's another headline (no longer "Why note-taking apps
         | don't make us smarter"). But I doubt that "Note-taking apps are
         | designed for storage, not insight" is more correct. When I'm
         | taking notes, I'm collecting facts and evidence, from which I
         | later draw conclusions, i.e. get insight.
        
         | kazinator wrote:
         | The phrase "improve our thinking" appears, which can be
         | understood as the article author's clarification about what
         | "make us smarter" refers to.
        
           | Rochus wrote:
           | Thanks, though "thinking" is a mental process and "make
           | smarter" or "showing a high degree of mental ability" applies
           | to a quality.
        
             | kazinator wrote:
             | The entire article can be summarized like this:
             | 
             | "I define intelligence an innate ability to juggle
             | information well, which is independent of memory. If you're
             | trying to think, but have forgotten some key information
             | and not have taken notes, you're not less intelligent, only
             | less informed; therefore, note taking cannot make you more
             | intelligent, only better informed."
             | 
             | Yawn ...
        
               | Rochus wrote:
               | Thanks for the summary.
               | 
               | > _I define intelligence an innate ability to juggle
               | information well, which is independent of memory ..._
               | 
               | Well, if people start using their own definitions, then
               | we should not wonder that they come to unusual
               | conclusions.
        
       | slushh wrote:
       | Note taking apps can make us smarter when note taking apps allow
       | people to cooperate.
       | 
       | It can already happen on Twitter that people complete each
       | other's thoughts but the Twitter timeline is not the medium to
       | publish half-finished thoughts that could tarnish one's
       | reputation.
       | 
       | Still, there is some joined thinking. HN shows that it's fun to
       | pool notes on poplar topics. The difficulty lies in managing the
       | attention on notes. Popularity voting doesn't work to navigate
       | note collections.
       | 
       | The headline is about our smartness, but it doesn't mean us as a
       | group. There is no joined thinking in his note-taking apps.
       | 
       | He is right when he talks about his isolated thinking:
       | 
       | >But the original promise of Roam -- that it would improve my
       | thinking by helping me to build a knowledge base and discover new
       | ideas -- fizzled completely
       | 
       | Where should new ideas arise in old notes when nobody sees them?
       | Old notes just remind us that something is important. Revisiting
       | them later, with new connections from new memories, it's possible
       | to have new insights.
       | 
       | There is an easier way to access new memories: When notes are
       | published, other brains, with many more, and different memories,
       | can find solutions or advancements.
       | 
       | Historically, scientists only publish polished results, apart
       | from exceptions like Hilbert's problems. Even those were
       | remarkable problems. Who would dare to publish their minor
       | nuisances or shallow observations (unless they come with a nice
       | picture)?
       | 
       | The author hopes that AI can find answers. Why should we wait for
       | AI when there are already intelligent humans? The problem lies in
       | managing access to our thoughts. We don't want to allow everybody
       | to see each of our notes.
       | 
       | >One interpretation of these events is that the software failed:
       | that journaling and souped-up links simply don't have the power
       | some of us once hoped they did.
       | 
       | >In short: it is probably a mistake, in the end, to ask software
       | to improve our thinking.
       | 
       | Software could improve _our joined_ thinking. We need an
       | acceptable format to publish our notes.
        
       | bachmeier wrote:
       | > It turns out that a fresh note created each day, labeled with a
       | date, is a good canvas for collecting transient thoughts, which
       | can serve as a springboard into deeper thinking.
       | 
       | This type of notetaking has been around forever. Ten years ago I
       | was using TiddlyWiki exactly that way. Click the button to create
       | a new journal and organize them by date.
       | 
       | > The second is known to note-taking nerds as "bidirectional
       | linking."
       | 
       | Also strange to attribute this to Roam. It was around long before
       | Roam. TiddlyWiki had it forever. I never saw much use to it, but
       | it was there, even if the author didn't know about it.
       | 
       | > In short: it is probably a mistake, in the end, to ask software
       | to improve our thinking.
       | 
       | It's tough to draw that conclusion based on the arguments up to
       | that point. Software is really helpful. I could use a plain text
       | editor, but quality search, hyperlinks between notes, automatic
       | naming of notes, ability to make task lists with checkable boxes,
       | etc. is a clear win for me.
        
         | cratermoon wrote:
         | Even in the original c2 wiki, clicking on the title of a page
         | went to a page listing all the pages that linked to it. Still
         | does.
        
       | nvahalik wrote:
       | I tried taking notes and then organizing them afterward.
       | 
       | Then, I switched to spending a little bit of time organizing my
       | notes before taking lots of them. This changed the game for me
       | considerably.
       | 
       | It definitely doesn't make me smarter but it does keep me more
       | organized. To the point where I'm not in a conversation
       | remembering something I missed from earlier. This does make me
       | more effective in those conversations and more able to focus on
       | the people I'm conversing with.
       | 
       | And that can definitely make me _seem_ smarter...
        
       | vlark wrote:
       | I can't recommend the Zettlekasten Method enough:
       | https://zettelkasten.de/introduction/
       | 
       | You can do it with index cards or you can use software to
       | practice the method and grow your note collection. I now prefer
       | Zettlr (https://www.zettlr.com) after using Joplin
       | (https://joplinapp.org), which are both FOSS.
       | 
       | One of the core strategies of the Zettlekasten Method is to link
       | notes to each other. That's how knowledge grows: connections and
       | synthesis (internalization/application of the connections)
       | 
       | Here's a 3-year-old video on the method that serves as a good
       | primer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFZHuWLA09M
        
         | floren wrote:
         | Guess I'll toot my horn slightly: I made a Zettlekasten-ish
         | tool for the CLI a few years ago and have used it for my work
         | notes (including daily TODO), project logs, and personal diary
         | stuff ever since. At this point I've got a hierarchy of 114
         | notes, with some notes linked into multiple locations in the
         | tree. The hardest part is trying to decide if you want a new
         | note for a topic, or if it should fit into an existing one.
         | 
         | Maybe somebody might find it useful:
         | 
         | https://github.com/floren/zk
         | 
         | Everything is just files in a directory, so I use Syncthing to
         | have access to it everywhere.
         | 
         | It's also got a thing that lets you associate files with a
         | given note, but the tooling around that isn't very good yet.
         | I've been slowly working on a client for the Acme text editor,
         | and I've also wanted to make a proper Go GUI client.
         | 
         | (man I need to re-do the CLI with some library that does built-
         | in help, because some commands like `zk orphans` [which finds
         | notes that have no parents] aren't documented _anywhere_ )
        
       | wfhBrian wrote:
       | [INSERT OS] (or any platform) doesn't make you smarter...
       | 
       | But, how you use it can make you smarter,
       | 
       | or suck you into a cult.
        
       | pixel_tracing wrote:
       | The feedback loop needs to be very small, from thought to
       | insight, to storage, to retrieval at a later time. Probably the
       | best is maybe audio => transcription => storage The audio =>
       | transcription UX isn't too great at the moment Edit: I should add
       | the BEST experience here is direct thought => storage =>
       | retrieval This is how our brains work but we need a module
       | extender for our brain when we are doing a fuzzy search
        
       | wduquette wrote:
       | I do find note-taking to be a useful way to learn and remember
       | things. Usually if I'm studying something seriously I'll make
       | notes using pen and paper, and then later consolidate them and
       | synthesize them into an Obsidian vault.
       | 
       | But I admit that the Zettelkasten method has had marginal benefit
       | for me, possibly because I'm not working that way all day every
       | day; and simply copying and pasting articles from the web into
       | your knowledge base isn't going to accomplish much of anything
       | for anybody.
        
         | toastal wrote:
         | Is there an open source option to Obsidian? This is the type of
         | thing I wouldn't want reading or tracking my inner thoughts.
         | Preferably something that isn't using a limited format like
         | Markdown.
        
           | freshchilled wrote:
           | There's LogSeq, which is a bit of a different model, but is
           | open source and has all the basic functionality that Obsidian
           | has.
           | 
           | I don't know what kind of formatting you're looking for, but
           | most of the apps I'm familiar with are markdown or just plain
           | text. I use Vimwiki in markdown for my notes, but it can also
           | be exported to HTML, which I don't use often.
        
           | datadrivenangel wrote:
           | Obsidian stores everything in markdown files, which are just
           | text, so you can use any software you want to read and edit
           | them.
        
       | thecodrr wrote:
       | I think all note apps are just databases. Some day an LLM might
       | be able to make sense of the messy notes in my note taking app
       | but I am not holding my breath. My notes are not supposed to
       | stand the test of time. They are ephemeral thoughts relevant only
       | for a specific period - a best-worst case against the risk of
       | forgetting them.
       | 
       | The most an AI should do is find relevant notes on a topic I
       | search. That's it. I don't need its robotic voice summarizing my
       | grotesque ideas in a painless, unpassionate way. The last thing I
       | need is more of my ideas seeping into more of my computers in
       | hopes of somehow making me smarter.
        
       | keeptrying wrote:
       | 1. The main reason we don't leanr from notes is that its
       | exhausting to go back and review.
       | 
       | 2. Learning requires a risk of loss. Without some kind of loss
       | being averted, your mind won't retain nor focus on the subject at
       | hand.
       | 
       | This is why TV and entertainment or fiction rarely help us learn
       | anything.
       | 
       | BENEFITS
       | 
       | The biggest benefit of note taking is 1. Writing the notes helps
       | your instantly retain - hand written notes much more so 2. you
       | miss about 20%-80% of verbal information when its presented first
       | tiem - especially subjects we aren't familair with.
        
       | LispSporks22 wrote:
       | I used to be a note taking nerd. I switched to handwritten notes.
       | Supposedly writing vs. typing helps with recall. Who knows.
       | Anyway, shortly after that I became a fountain pen connoisseur.
       | Started to see the pattern/problem... Now it's just dumb notes on
       | a legal pad using a ballpoint. Minimum distraction. Sometimes I
       | do a document scan with my phone.
        
       | bityard wrote:
       | The article is a nothingburger, as others have noted.
       | 
       | But quite often, you get replies in the comments saying that
       | _all_ note-taking and organization is a procrastinating waste of
       | time. ("Why can't everyone just memorize everything like I
       | do???") Which is wrong too.
       | 
       | Notes are just a tool for knowledge work. They are necessary but
       | not sufficient. If you're not writing things down SOMEWHERE every
       | day, you are leaving a LOT of mental capacity on the table. All
       | the while setting up Future You to relearn the same things over
       | and over again.
       | 
       | (Final tangent: apprentice woodworkers and blacksmiths would
       | craft their own basic tools when just getting started, I think
       | most apprentice software devs should do the same.)
        
         | MisterBastahrd wrote:
         | I graduated from college because a classmate took notes.
         | 
         | I rarely ever attended class in my major. I was notorious for
         | it. I had 3 jobs. I would ride the bus an hour and a half to
         | school and spend most days sleeping in the student union. I'd
         | go xerox her notes right before the test, study them a few
         | times during lunch breaks and afterward at work, and then go
         | take the exams.
         | 
         | She took such good notes that I almost always had higher grades
         | than she did. Studying notes is more important than taking
         | them, but having great notes means As if you understand what
         | you're reading.
        
       | helix278 wrote:
       | Note taking can help to offload your brain.
        
       | demetrius wrote:
       | This is such a strange headline.
       | 
       | > Why note-taking apps don't make us smarter
       | 
       | Because... they're not supposed to?
       | 
       | To me, this sounds like "Why pen doesn't make us smarter" or "Why
       | lamp doesn't make us smarter". Why was the author expecting it to
       | make us smarter anyway? Where did they get that expectation?
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Ok, we've changed the title to a more representative phrase
         | from the article.
        
         | jasonlotito wrote:
         | > This is such a strange headline.
         | 
         | This is such a strange comment.
         | 
         | "They're designed for storage, not sparking insights. Can AI
         | change that?"
         | 
         | That's the sub-header. The followup. The next line.
         | 
         | > Because... they're not supposed to?
         | 
         | Tell that to the note-taking apps that are adding AI to their
         | apps in order to "make us smarter" as some would say. To
         | improve our knowledge, to think bigger, to brainstorm for us.
         | 
         | > Why was the author expecting it to make us smarter anyway?
         | 
         | The headline doesn't say that at all. In fact, the article
         | starts off by making it very very very clear that they aren't
         | doing this.
         | 
         | > Where did they get that expectation?
         | 
         | They didn't. That's your conclusion.
         | 
         | > To me, this sounds like "Why pen doesn't make us smarter" or
         | "Why lamp doesn't make us smarter".
         | 
         | They sound nothing alike. The sounds are completely different.
         | You should get your hearing checked. =)
        
         | LordDragonfang wrote:
         | The title gets even funnier when bookended with the author's
         | conclusion: "The reason, sadly, is that thinking takes place in
         | your brain."
        
           | tomcam wrote:
           | My wife vehemently disagrees
        
         | dkarl wrote:
         | Heh, you haven't looked around for a note-taking app recently.
         | Note-taking is like the nerdy version of weight loss. There's a
         | cottage industry around note-taking apps and techniques,
         | complete with dozens (at least) of people producing influencer
         | content on how they make their life amazing using <notetaking-
         | method-A> with <notetaking-app-B>.
        
           | LordDragonfang wrote:
           | No, you see, they're not "note-taking apps", they're _PKMSs_
           | - Personal Knowledge Management Systems. (bleh)
        
             | datadrivenangel wrote:
             | The problem is that people confuse information for
             | knowledge.
        
             | doubled112 wrote:
             | This sounds like the equivalent of a gas station attendant
             | calling themselves a petrol product distribution
             | technician.
        
           | pavlov wrote:
           | Yes, it feels like people are desperately searching for "This
           | one crazy hack that will make you think better!"
           | 
           | In my experience, thinking more is the only thing that will
           | reliably make you think better. And to think more, you need
           | space and time, not a breathtaking density of inputs and
           | outputs surrounding your thoughts, which seems to be the
           | note-taking industry's solution.
        
             | atoav wrote:
             | Curiously there have been indications that the way we take
             | notes does indeed affect our thinking -- but not in the way
             | those note app devs would like: Taking handwritten notes is
             | linked to better memorization in various studies over e.g.
             | typing.
        
             | taude wrote:
             | Agreed. Everyone is overthinking it, and spending their
             | brain cells on the wrong thing looking for that one
             | panacea.
             | 
             | Wanna get fit: watch what you eat, burn more calories than
             | you intake, exercise, probably minimize alcohol intake.
             | 
             | Wanna learn stuff: intake new information from a reliable
             | source, write it down (in anything), reprocess the
             | information in your own words, and review often enough for
             | you to pick it up.
             | 
             | Anything I'm missing?
        
             | boredemployee wrote:
             | >> you need space and time
             | 
             | ie.: a simple walk in a park or a calm and silent place
        
         | taude wrote:
         | Yeah, this is dumb. Gotta study your notes and things you write
         | down. Most people don't have the raw IQ or photographic memory
         | to get it first try.
        
         | tgv wrote:
         | I think the pen and the lamp have made us smarter. You need
         | tools to "scale up" knowledge distribution and acquisition (and
         | reliability). Writing and printing did are essential in that.
         | It's not an unreasonable starting point to think that note-
         | taking apps can help us further.
        
       | kouru225 wrote:
       | I never understood the purpose of doing the daily note for these
       | apps but I completely disagree with the author. Multiple times
       | now I've been writing, gotten stuck, went to go look at relevant
       | notes, and found a note thinking about the issue in a completely
       | different way that I could then integrate with my current form of
       | thought. The fact of the matter is that storage is a bit like
       | expanding your conscious world. You think about things
       | differently depending on context, mood, etc. If you have your
       | thoughts about the same subject from two different contexts, it's
       | like reaching back into your brain and pulling out subconscious
       | truths that you would've forgotten otherwise.
       | 
       | The issue with the daily note is that it doesn't sort by content.
       | That's why I just constantly make notes based on topic of
       | discussion. Whenever I have an idea, I take a voice memo on my
       | phone. Then I send that voice memo to whisper AI for
       | autotranscription, and a little script on my server formats it
       | for Obsidian MD. I used to try to write from scratch. Now I
       | realize that writing from scratch is a terrible method of
       | writing.
        
         | LordDragonfang wrote:
         | >I never understood the purpose of doing the daily note for
         | these apps
         | 
         | I mostly use Obsidian for taking notes during D&D (arguably its
         | killer app), but I think "session" notes are a good enough
         | analogue to "daily notes".
         | 
         | To that end, these notes serve as an excuse to force you to
         | list your individual notes in chronological order (which makes
         | it easy to trigger further memories/details that came next),
         | which then prompts you to spin out any specific-enough
         | information into atomic notes, adding backlinks which provide
         | context and organic categorization that might not otherwise be
         | obvious.
        
           | kouru225 wrote:
           | I was sort of exaggerating. I do get how it can be a useful
           | process but it does seem like the author had blind faith in
           | that type of organization without understanding the pros and
           | cons of it, and I do think that the cons are way bigger than
           | people seem to think they are. Some of my more rambling voice
           | memos approach a "daily note" style of chronological
           | organization. I've tried to create outlines for them but it's
           | pretty time consuming. Someday soon I'll try to use ai to
           | create summaries and see where that takes me.
           | 
           | My point was that I think the authors problem is the daily
           | note rather than the note taking app.
        
         | gochi wrote:
         | I don't see the benefit of this when you can reach for the
         | internet and find a magnitude of thoughts on the very same
         | issue with a very different perspective. I also think thoughts
         | from others are the only way to adjust your own bias about the
         | issue.
         | 
         | Rather the benefit seems to mostly stem from freeing up mental
         | space by removing whatever the thought was that you want to
         | cling to, and putting it somewhere else that "feels" permanent.
         | That feeling is important because it allows your brain to drop
         | it, rather than feel like you have to continue to think about
         | it out of fear of "forgetting".
        
           | kouru225 wrote:
           | It doesn't help to find different thoughts on the same issue
           | because you can't relate to the majority of them. When you
           | find out that you, yourself, came to different opinions of
           | the same subject, then you end up having a practical
           | understanding of that POV.
           | 
           | You have to understand where that differing POV connects with
           | other POVs. The bridge between the two is what matters here;
           | not the content.
        
             | gochi wrote:
             | Why can I not relate to the majority of them? It's a basic
             | feature of empathy.
        
               | kouru225 wrote:
               | Relating may be the wrong word. Its one thing to
               | empathize with someone's pov, but it's another to
               | recreate it. We all are living, in some respect, in
               | response to our environment. You can empathize with
               | another's pov but that doesn't mean you have a full
               | understanding of the ecosystem of thoughts that led them
               | to their conclusions. What I'm saying is that as our
               | environment changes over time, your ecosystem of thoughts
               | change, and if you put those thoughts down at the moment
               | then you can find moments in your past when you, too,
               | came to the same conclusion as other people. That way you
               | can relate not only to their opinion, but to the
               | environment that the opinion was (in some respect)
               | created in response to. You can then relate not just to
               | their conscious pov but to the unsaid subconscious
               | aspects of their pov as well. It allows you to find
               | connections you previously wouldn't have found. It also
               | has helped me change my perception of myself.
        
           | whats_a_quasar wrote:
           | In my experience, going to the internet to get whatever
           | random thoughts a search algorithm turns up for me can feel
           | interesting, but is almost always counterproductive. Other
           | people have different circumstances, different experiences,
           | and while some content on the internet is good, a lot of it
           | is just crap.
           | 
           | Most of the work is in thinking through things for yourself,
           | organizing information, and synthesizing some outcome.
           | Internet browsing is like junk food, and doesn't do a good
           | job substituting for that.
           | 
           | Also, you mention "thoughts from others are the only way to
           | adjust your own bias." I definitely agree with that, but I
           | want to get thoughts from people who I know and trust. If you
           | adjust your biases based on the cacophony of the internet
           | it's much more likely that you'll get swept up in other
           | people's biases instead
        
       | aschearer wrote:
       | I'm not "smarter" but keeping a daily journal where I can dump
       | stream-of-consciousness onto the page and look back at it has
       | been very helpful for me. It frees up memory for other things. It
       | facilitates a better working relationship between my analytical
       | and intuitive sides. And most of all it's a greenhouse for mental
       | seeds, which sometimes germinate unexpectedly but would otherwise
       | be discarded.
       | 
       | I feel approaching journaling with a goal in mind,
       | instrumentally, may undermine the process. Better to just till
       | the mental soil and see what happens. Like going on a hike or a
       | bike ride.
        
         | milesvp wrote:
         | I've been watching a youtube psychiatrist who seems to be
         | abreast of the latest research on some of this stuff. He had an
         | interesting insight around learning and journaling. His take
         | seems to be that journaling is something you do to help process
         | big things, mostly emotional. Or to write things down so you
         | can clear your working memory. But there seems to be evidence
         | that you don't want to write down certain things you want to
         | recall. Or at least, you don't want to write them down prior to
         | sleep. Seems there's some research that suggest sleep brain
         | activity will proritise emotional problem solving, then non
         | emotional problem solving, then recall. So to get better recall
         | of facts, writing down things to clear the brain of everything
         | but what you want to remember is a good strategy.
         | 
         | edit: healthy gamer is the channel, and I really enjoy when he
         | talks the science behind some of these topics
        
       | kkfx wrote:
       | My notes (Emacs/org-mode/org-roam/attachments/agenda and so on)
       | makes me able to find anything at my fingertips without
       | traversing a filesystem, carefully storing files in a hyper-
       | curated hierarchy etc, ultimately they made my life easier, more
       | productive.
       | 
       | In smartness terms they give me:
       | 
       | - good reference when I need them
       | 
       | - details on something when I want
       | 
       | My brain is still the same, no IT tool so far can extend my
       | neural processing, but the overall results are pretty positive.
       | 
       | My note against much other "apps" is:
       | 
       | - not integrated with anything else, so you can't link things
       | like mail, financial transactions etc
       | 
       | - not easy to run automation on top of notes (something more
       | complex than simple agenda reminder)
       | 
       | That's not much a "note app" issue but a system design issue.
       | Emacs is a fully integrated tool, like classical systems, in the
       | modern era for business reasons anything is just an isle with all
       | the flexibility and usability issue of the case.
        
       | matt_daemon wrote:
       | Notes really are such a fraught topic. One one hand you might say
       | note taking is superfluous if you're just trying to get
       | information in your brain (you'd be better off using a spaced-
       | repetition system like Anki). On the other, they can be
       | beneficial as a kind of personal archive, however it usually
       | requires a lot of manual work (even with some kind of AI
       | assistance).
        
       | gdubs wrote:
       | There's a kind of busywork in note-taking, list-making,
       | organizing, that can often feel like you're getting something
       | done, but is a kind of procrastination.
       | 
       | Then, there's real value to taking notes that for me is most
       | pronounced when I write them with a real pen and paper. I may
       | never actually go back to these, but the act of writing them down
       | solidifies things for me. Things like WWDC sessions, online
       | courses. The value is the act of deliberately recording. There's
       | a kind of brain/physical connection that happens.
       | 
       | Ultimately, intentionality matters. There are some projects where
       | the note-taking itself _is_ the point. The notes are the end
       | product; you 're producing something like a catalogue of
       | thoughts. Hypercard.
       | 
       | But, it's easy to get lost in that if what you're really trying
       | to achieve is 'over there' somewhere. It can be a way of avoiding
       | the work entirely.
        
         | nottorp wrote:
         | > but the act of writing them down solidifies things for me
         | 
         | Did that in uni when cramming for some exams. Writing (a good
         | part of the course) by hand in the days prior to the exam
         | helped a lot.
        
           | epiccoleman wrote:
           | This is the secret of professors who tell you can bring a
           | cheat sheet to an exam. The trick is that _making_ the cheat
           | sheet helps you study.
           | 
           | I had a few teachers who would twist this a bit by saying
           | "you can bring a single note card" or similar. Once you've
           | had to figure out how to stuff a calc-exam's worth of help
           | into a 3x5 card, you'll damn sure know more than when you
           | started!
           | 
           | I'll often make myself little docs or cheat sheets for some
           | onerous process at work, and again - getting to the point
           | where I have a doc that's foolproof even on my stupidest
           | mornings does a lot to make sure I know the material well.
        
         | xwowsersx wrote:
         | I share the same perspective. There's a notable subculture
         | dedicated to meticulously refining their note-taking, to-do
         | lists, and other organizational tools. It appears that
         | communities like HN and various tech circles tend to have a
         | heightened interest in this, which makes sense since tech
         | enthusiasts often enjoy fine-tuning tools just like writing
         | scripts for tasks. However, akin to yak shaving in programming,
         | there's a parallel phenomenon in personal productivity tools.
         | While I appreciate Obsidian and similar tools (though
         | apparently not as much as the next guy), it seems somewhat
         | futile to invest excessive energy in crafting the perfect
         | organizational system, as in reality, most of what we jot down
         | or bookmark goes untouched. So, while it may _feel_ productive,
         | as you rightly noted, it can often be a form of
         | procrastination.
        
         | JohnFen wrote:
         | > there's real value to taking notes that for me is most
         | pronounced when I write them with a real pen and paper. I may
         | never actually go back to these, but the act of writing them
         | down solidifies things for me.
         | 
         | Yes, this is me. I've gone through all sorts of ways to
         | "improve" my note-taking, including various note-taking apps.
         | But they all actually reduce the value of note-taking for me,
         | because the valuable part of note-taking is that act of taking
         | notes itself. If I'm not writing them long-form by hand, as
         | opposed to tapping or typing, that value is eliminated.
         | 
         | An exception to all of this is when attending lectures or
         | presentations -- in that setting, taking notes _always_ reduces
         | my comprehension of what it being presented, because I can 't
         | take notes and listen at the same time. For me, it's similar to
         | photography -- if I'm taking photographs of a place or event
         | that I'm at, the act of taking the photographs removes me from
         | that place or event and I can no longer fully take it in.
        
         | vlark wrote:
         | Yes, this exactly: sometimes I don't write things down to
         | review them later, but write them down to remember them now.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | tin7in wrote:
       | I'm using (and working on) a note taking app that has
       | bidirectional links and a bunch of other "second brain" features
       | that help me find information quicker.
       | 
       | Since a few weeks I started playing around with embeddings and
       | the results are pretty mind-blowing although it's just an
       | improved search for now. One unexpected outcome for example is
       | that search now includes snippets with similar meaning but in
       | different languages.
        
       | hot_gril wrote:
       | I simply use the Notes app on my iPhone, and even that got over-
       | complicated with the introduction of iCloud. Idk how but it
       | deleted all my notes when I enabled that back in the day. My bad
       | for not just using a plaintext file.
        
         | nottorp wrote:
         | I think they were still there but it started showing your
         | icloud notes instead of asking you to import your local notes
         | into icloud.
         | 
         | Apple still hasn't learned how to do online stuff...
        
       | squokko wrote:
       | The fact that most people don't want to face is that their notes
       | don't contain any valuable insights and their ideas are
       | worthless.
        
       | fattless wrote:
       | Im a student and have been slowly messing with other note taking
       | strategies for class. I switched first to joplin for md and html
       | which was jeads and shoulders above google docs for speed and
       | organization. This semester im giving obsidian a shot for its
       | links and an automatic flashcard plugin, hoping it helps me
       | review quicker and gets me to think about how these topics
       | connect instead of just copying information from start to end.
       | But admittedly i was convinced by one of those "my second brain
       | changed my life forever and cured cancer" videos
       | 
       | So far its been good and an improvement, thanks to md im taking
       | great notes fast and efficiently and im putting more thought into
       | connections. But all the videos and posts claiming its changed
       | their lives or something is a bit much. I cant imagine it being
       | that much more useful outside of school.
       | 
       | On a side note, any other useful programs/techniques feel free to
       | share.
        
         | Zetice wrote:
         | Notion + GoodNotes is where I'm at currently. I do wish I could
         | combine the two, but no app I've found does tablet+pen and
         | typed notes seamlessly together, so I just split them out for
         | this setup.
         | 
         | I'm also experimenting with Asana to track class assignments,
         | but I'm currently trying to get them to let me buy "only" one
         | seat of Business level, since the "workload" tool seems
         | immensely valuable to keep my work spread out evenly through
         | the semester.
        
         | ravishi wrote:
         | This trend is indeed weird. It reminds me of my journey with
         | Vim. In the beginning it was life changing. Like I felt like it
         | really gave me an edge. I had all kinds of customizations on
         | top of it. After a while I changed to Vim plugins inside full
         | IDEs. No customization, just my plain comfortable text editor
         | of choice. I feel nice while using it. Feels at home. I can't
         | use mouse based text editors and feel happy anymore. Or at
         | least I don't bother trying. Also I see no point in comparing
         | this with anyone else using their tools. It's their tools and
         | they could have more than a decade of experience in it.
        
         | floren wrote:
         | > But admittedly i was convinced by one of those "my second
         | brain changed my life forever and cured cancer" videos [...]
         | But all the videos and posts claiming its changed their lives
         | or something is a bit much.
         | 
         | Would you have clicked on the video if the title was "My second
         | brain has been kinda useful, I guess"?
        
       | melagonster wrote:
       | I sure someone had published a url about "personal assistant",
       | rely on LLama and work notebook. guess this is the dream of
       | author of this article ?
        
       | jrm4 wrote:
       | Again for those who choose not to read, the answer is probably
       | not.
       | 
       | I love this article, because I've had to discover this
       | independently.
       | 
       | The specific point that I realized was the following: You know
       | the whole mindmapping thing with the bidirectionality and the
       | fancy graphs and so forth?
       | 
       | That's REALLY appealing to us for the following reason: We, as
       | humans, are already very good at it. It's literally how our
       | brains work.
       | 
       | But also, consequently, that's why the apps suck at it -- we do
       | this WAY better than they likely EVER will. That was one of those
       | "once I realized that, I was enlightened" things in this space
       | for sure.
       | 
       | I've just kind of found that, good bookmarks/article tools (for
       | me that was Shaarli, and later Shiori) and then just making notes
       | to myself ALL THE TIME, even if I don't read them as much, does a
       | much better job of this. I'm the real computer here :)
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | nottorp wrote:
       | The article does mention that the "AI" current fad may improve
       | note apps. Or at least generate more sales.
       | 
       | Personally, I'd just like an assistant that will automatically
       | label my mails. Per project, utility bills, accounting stuff, all
       | in their own bucket.
       | 
       | The per project stuff is the problem because just using the
       | sender won't work, and there are even emails referring to
       | multiple projects. Which i'd like filed as multiple copies in
       | multiple folders. Can the current LLMs sort that?
       | 
       | On my local machines not on someone's cloud thank you very much.
       | 
       | I'd pay maybe a Starbucks coffee per year (not month).
        
       | vendiddy wrote:
       | Forgetting about insight, I'd even love an AI powered search
       | engine on my personal notes.
       | 
       | "Hey what notes did I take this week related for my job? What are
       | the actionable things I owe others?"
        
         | cratermoon wrote:
         | I use a text analyzer to help with the search on my notes, and
         | it does provide value for a free text search. It can finds
         | notes that use similar words and phrases, purely by token-
         | match. If I needed to answer questions like you ask, I'd tag my
         | notes, "work" or "todo", and use those.
         | 
         | My hunch is that generative pre-trained transformers can help
         | provide insights, and I'm interested in trying it out. For
         | those struggling with their note-taking systems and stuck with
         | exact/regex matching, the ideas in this article, while not new
         | to me, would provide some ideas. Leaning on "AI" to be the
         | answer to a mess of random notes probably won't get the value
         | this article is hyping.
        
       | bekantan wrote:
       | I keep notes, but my main problem is that I don't read them often
       | enough. Somehow I have tendency to keep moving ahead and I really
       | need to have a good reason to go back and look something up.
       | 
       | So for me, main benefit is extra information which I retained
       | while/because I was writing it down. I stay away from commercial
       | apps, just org(roam) mode since emacs is not going out of
       | business
        
       | JellyBeanThief wrote:
       | The thing is I never picked up tools like Obsidian or Anytype
       | because I wanted them to do my thinking for me. On the contrary,
       | I use them because they help me be rigorous in my thinking. The
       | process of methodically recording and organizing what I find and
       | where I found it ensures that there are some questions I always
       | ask about everything.
       | 
       | Like, my template record for a company has slots for the C-suite
       | that link to records for persons, and slots for parent and child
       | companies. Because of that, whenever I add a new company to my
       | database, I'm prompted to add that information. I don't _have_
       | to, but what 's important is that I don't have to worry about
       | forgetting to deliberately make that choice. And in the future I
       | can count on being reminded of what I omitted.
        
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