[HN Gopher] Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation
___________________________________________________________________
Growing scientific interest in vagus nerve stimulation
Author : acallaghan
Score : 200 points
Date : 2023-08-23 10:37 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| [deleted]
| dghughes wrote:
| Years ago I read that breathing on your vagus nerve on your wrist
| can help calm you down. Each breath pulse would do something
| cause stimulation to calm you more like a feedback loop. I didn't
| know if it was bunk or not. I tried it but never felt any effect.
| robg wrote:
| The automatic feedback loop between heart and lungs is really
| cool. The more you slow your breathing the more you slow your
| heart. You are choosing to breathe slower via your vagus nerve.
| The heart responds accordingly.
|
| By contrast the adrenal cortex, a little brain on top of the
| kidneys, automatically triggers fight or flight with threat
| detection. By the time you realize it your heart rate is already
| increasing. Breathing slowly, preferably through your nose,
| counteracts that physiological stress.
|
| See also the last 100 years of research on the autonomic nervous
| system.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| I have acid reflux and possibly a mild hiatal hernia. When it
| triggers in Just The Right Way, I also get severe panic attack
| symptoms.
|
| When I started investigating it (my coping mechanism during panic
| attacks) I discovered that the vagus nerve travels next to the
| esophagus through the diaphragm.
|
| So my complete layman explanation was that the stomach pushes
| through the diaphragm during a hiatal hernia -> it rubs against
| the vagus nerve -> panic attack symptoms.
|
| I might need to add the study of vagus nerve to "why haven't we
| studied this about the human body more" -list along with gut
| bacteria composition.
| kyleyeats wrote:
| I'm not a doctor or anything but you're describing gallstones
| and gallbladder attacks here. Regular panic attacks will reveal
| an emotional pattern. Gallbladder attacks usually happen after
| you eat a big, high-fat meal and won't have an associated
| emotional trigger.
|
| It'll feel like a Tai Chi master is doing the Two Finger Death
| Touch on the right side of your diaphragm, but aside from that
| feels just like a panic attack.
| jamal-kumar wrote:
| Wait until you hear about the research trying to find out if
| there's a connection between signalling molecules that bacteria
| release that affect the vagus nerve directly stimulating the
| brain to eat more junk food [1]
|
| [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9102524/
| CobaltFire wrote:
| I've had recurring issues exactly like that for years. You have
| just given me something to look for (hiatal hernia) as that
| matches my symptoms.
|
| Thanks!
| theshrike79 wrote:
| I'm pretty sure I had a semi-severe case of hiatal hernia,
| but when the doctor shoved a camera down my throat to check,
| he actually fixed it by accidentally pushing the hernia down
| :D
|
| Most of my worst symptoms went away after the checkup, but it
| took a LONG while for my digestive tract to fully heal. I
| couldn't burp at all for ... maybe two years, the pressure
| just stayed in my stomach. Drinking small amounts of fizzy
| drinks and rising on my toes + slamming my heels down got the
| air out sometimes.
|
| There are still things I can't eat because they instantly
| irritate my reflux, buttery pastries being the worst ones.
| CobaltFire wrote:
| It's interesting you say that, because since I had a camera
| shoved down my throat two years ago I haven't had symptoms
| until last week (I was ~35km into a 40km bike ride and it
| was a VERY sudden onset during a climb).
|
| I'll talk to my GP this week when I see him.
| albntomat0 wrote:
| I'm in a very similar situation as you with EoE, acid reflux,
| and a confirmed mild hiatal hernia. The anxiety seems to line
| up as well.
|
| Have you found any additional solutions, past the standard PPI
| and diet for acid reflux?
|
| Thanks!
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Diet mostly, I dropped most added sugars, wheat and drip
| coffee (french press and cold press are fine for some reason)
| along with broccoli (random, right?) and industrial breads
| (something in the rising agents -\\_(tsu)_/- ) and I'm
| currently mostly fine.
|
| Large amounts of red meat is bad, because it just doesn't
| digest properly, I might burp in the evening and still taste
| my lunch sausage...
|
| Metamizole is the only one that helps in the extreme cases
| (panic attacks), but luckily I don't get those anymore. I
| think I've had to take a single pill twice in the last 5
| years. It's pretty much exactly 15 minutes from swallowing
| the pill and then all symptoms go away because it forces my
| diaphragm to relax and thus drop pressure to the vagus nerve.
| blue_dragon wrote:
| Hijacking your comment to share my story and ask for advice.
|
| I have diagnosed EoE, I've had it for my whole life. I'm
| currently on 80mg omeprazole daily and an elimination diet.
| This helps a lot but is not a cure. I've also experienced
| benign heart palpitations for my whole life (confirmed by a
| cardiologist). For a long time, I've had a hunch that the two
| were connected.
|
| On days when I have EoE flare-ups, I feel some pain and
| swelling in my esophagus, as though I have a bad chest cold.
| Food and liquids tend to linger in my esophagus for longer.
| Another unusual side effect is that, on days when my EoE
| flares up, I tend to experience frequent heart palpitations,
| most commonly right after consuming food or water.
|
| Since the vagus nerve travels through the chest, adjacent to
| both the heart and the esophagus, I think the mechanism of
| action is this: the inflammation in my esophagus stimulates
| the vagus nerve, making a palpitation more likely. This
| inflammation also causes food and liquid to travel through
| the esophagus more slowly, which stimulates the vagus nerve
| further. The combined stimulus from inflammation and food or
| liquid can irritate the vagus nerve enough to cause heart
| palpitations.
|
| Obviously I would like to cure both my EoE and palpitations,
| as they're currently the two biggest detriments to my quality
| of life. And inflammation due to an overactive immune system
| is the cause of EoE. So the possibility of reducing immune
| system inflammation just by stimulating the vagus nerve is
| very appealing to me.
|
| If anyone reading this has an experience, opinion, research,
| suggestion, or anything they'd like to share, I'd love to
| hear it. I'm going to experiment with baking soda and
| famotidine to reduce inflammation, since I read in the above
| threads that either of those could work. But if there's some
| simple hack I can employ to reduce my symptoms
| (meditation/breathing technique, physical exercise, a
| stimulation device I can buy, some additional OTC medication
| I can take, etc), I love to hear it.
| cachecrab wrote:
| I haven't been diagnosed with EoE (and don't think I have
| it) but I do think there is a connection between heart
| palpitations and the digestive system. I have SIBO and will
| sometimes get them from the trapped gas.
|
| Some would consider this as Roemheld syndrome, which isn't
| an official diagnosis but I see it as more of an
| explanation that your digestive system can cause these
| symptoms, rather than there being a problem with your
| heart.
|
| I don't have any thing else to offer you as I'm not as
| familiar with EoE but you could look through the related
| subreddit to see if others have suggestions. Wishing you
| the best!
| MPSimmons wrote:
| Yeah, I've had this too. I've also noticed that digestion in my
| large intestine triggers panic attack symptoms sometimes.
| jinder wrote:
| Famotidine an old school H2 antihistamine used for acid reflux
| (pre PPIs), was found to have an additional mechanism of action
| via activation of the vagus nerve to inhibit pro-inflammatory
| cytokines in covid (via alpha 7 nicotinic acetylcholine
| receptor (a7nAChR) signal transduction - https://molmed.biomedc
| entral.com/articles/10.1186/s10020-022...).
|
| It has also been used quite extensively to combat post-covid
| neuropsychiatric symptoms.
|
| I think the link here is that increased LPS/endotoxin
| production by your microbiota can induce acid reflux, cause
| neuroinflammation and psychiatric symptoms. Low acid production
| itself can result in a more inflammatory microbiome further
| exacerbating the problem. Long term fix would be working on the
| migrating motor complex, improve motility/gastric emptying and
| rebalance the microbiome by reducing gram-negative
| bacteria/pathobionts and increasing butyrate production via
| selective feeding. [I'm not a doctor, this is just the
| direction I've been working on things myself]
| InSteady wrote:
| That's interesting about famotidine. This is also a treatment
| for MCAS, which is probably under-diagnosed because it's kind
| of obscure and the diagnostic criteria kind of suck
| currently. It can reduce stomach acid, so my doctor and I
| decided against using it as the first option in treatment,
| but may reconsider even though the alternative seems to be
| working. Thanks for the link and explanation.
|
| Can you share any relevant resources or ideas you've gotten
| on reducing the opportunists and increasing butyrate
| production? I've coaxed and cajoled my MMC and other
| digestive processes back into shape, or so it seems, but am
| struggling on the microbiome angle. It's tricky because the
| list of foods that trigger symptoms is insanely long, so it's
| hard to get creative and experimental as far as that goes.
| jinder wrote:
| Some people really do have mast cell issues, but everyone
| and their dog thinks they have MCAS these days and it's
| questionable in my opinion. Often a diagnosis will be based
| on whether any of the MCAS-drugs work (rather than testing
| which is very problematic for MCAS). But as you see in the
| linked paper famotidine was effective in mice genetically
| engineered without mast cells, so at least in that instance
| it's not a mast cell issue.
|
| The tricky thing with increasing butyrate production is
| that everyone's gut dysbiosis is different - and therefore,
| a prebiotic that works for one person may make someone
| else's condition worse. For example, I have big blooms in
| my Prevotella Copri population which would consume Inulin
| and make my butyrate production worse - but in people
| without a Prevotella Copri overgrowth, Inulin would improve
| their butyrate production.
|
| I would look into 16S microbiome testing (I use Biomesight)
| and use that as a guide, as well as slowly trialing
| interventions and monitoring symptoms. None of this is
| perfect and you kinda have to be on the bleeding edge of
| science/alternative medicine to figure things out.
| cachecrab wrote:
| Look into PHGG for increasing butyrate production
|
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S17564646
| 2...
| theshrike79 wrote:
| One thing that really helped me was just going to the gym.
| Basically strengthening my core improved my posture so that
| my esophagus isn't as crooked due to shitty posture.
| davzie wrote:
| I spent 6 years trying everything to solve reflux. I am a
| relatively fit 35 year old. I tried antacids, PPIs, H2 blockers
| and these just exacerbated the issue over time.
|
| Eventually after much reading I read that without _enough_
| stomach acid, food backs up and causes reflux. It also causes
| the LES to not close properly. So I started taking Betain HCL
| and Digestive Enzymes (Solgar ones) before I eat and I can 't
| tell you what a difference it's made. It's so amazing. I get 0
| symptoms and I also feel so much better generally.
|
| I honestly encourage you to try this. The medication for this
| stuff just has it the totally wrong way around. I can't believe
| this stuff is given out as one of the most commonly prescribed
| drugs in the UK at least.
| jconley wrote:
| I'll have to try this! I have reflux or heartburn daily if I
| don't do things right. A few things help me.
|
| 1) Don't have an empty stomach. My stomach goes crazy. 2)
| Don't overeat. Large portions cause it nearly every time. 3)
| Don't eat anything within 2 hours of bed time.
|
| So, basically, if I eat small meals often I am usually fine.
| And then there are trigger foods like too much coffee and
| alcohol and red sauces, and garlic and other things that
| cause indigestion.
| davzie wrote:
| I promise you, I had all this. If you try these supplements
| I mentioned you will never think about it again. The
| downside is you end up putting on some weight whilst you
| get over the fun of being able to eat whatever you want
| again :)
| [deleted]
| theshrike79 wrote:
| I have a vague recollection that I was tested well over a
| decade ago and the result was that I have really mild stomach
| acid and/or not enough of it.
|
| Basically if I eat stuff that digests slowly (fats and red
| meat), it takes my stomach a LONG time to actually break it
| down and move it forward. If I shove more stuff in there
| before it's done -> bad time.
|
| I lost over 10kg during the worst episodes in about 9 months,
| I lived pretty much on rooibos tea (even green tea irritated
| my reflux), white rice and mildly flavored chicken.
| davzie wrote:
| Sounds really awful. Sorry to hear that! I wonder if this
| would have happened many years ago before modern
| agriculture and all the awful stuff that is present in our
| foods. I wonder if our environments are causing this lack
| of stomach acid / enzymes in people. This can't surely have
| been happening when we were hunter / gatherers!
| theshrike79 wrote:
| There are theories about how our modern wheat for example
| is vastly different from what it was 50+ years ago,
| something in the structure has changed so that there's
| "more" wheat, but it's just fluff - all the good stuff
| has been modified out to get the maximum weight of wheat
| at the cost of quality.
| gottorf wrote:
| > This can't surely have been happening when we were
| hunter / gatherers!
|
| Or it did, and those people died and we no longer have
| any record of them. That's entirely possible, I suppose.
| davzie wrote:
| That implies might be a genetic disposition which would
| also imply anyone suffering today maybe shouldn't be here
| if that mutation died out. I dunno, I'm a software
| engineer not a geneticist but I just enjoy the thought
| experiment
| amatecha wrote:
| I know this sounds like a hack, but did you ever try taking
| some apple cider vinegar in water after eating? It's a
| lifesaver for me, near-instant cure for lack of stomach acid.
| Has to be the ACV "with mother", the cloudy stuff in it.
| Maybe no longer relevant if you're already taking Betain HCL
| (I thought that was a medication at first lol), but I
| definitely have to mention it in case you may have a natural
| medication-free alternative available that you may not have
| tried. Don't take my word for it or anything though, def read
| up on it if you're interested about it!
| davzie wrote:
| Yeah it's the same mechanism ! The ACC stimulates the
| stomach to produce loads of acid and enzymes which it is
| lacking. The supplements I use are basically the same
| except the enzymes themselves are provided in the form of
| the digestive enzyme tablets and the Betail HCL with Pepsin
| is what stimulates the acid production!
|
| Very glad it's working for you :)
| zigzaggy wrote:
| Not GP but I also have severe reflux - I've had it years.
| It's been really bad lately.
|
| In related information I've found that fortified yogurt helps
| not only my reflux but also improves my mood. But it never
| seemed to be enough to actually solve the reflux problem.
|
| Just ordered the supplements. Truly hope this solves the
| problem.
|
| Whoa I just realized that I have a hiatal hernia too. I
| didn't realize that's what that was. I hope this is a day of
| solutions!
| davzie wrote:
| I'd love to hear if this does solve it for you ! Feel free
| to reply on here or on my contact page :
| https://davidt.co.uk
| BSEdlMMldESB wrote:
| [flagged]
| wruza wrote:
| What a strange agitation in your comment.
|
| Melanin absorbtion spectrum is easy to search for and the data
| shows that its interaction with EM spectrum below UV and
| visible light (freq-wise) is basically zero.
|
| Radio frequencies at "home" energies don't interact with us, so
| you can take the tinfoil hat off ;). Things change when you
| stand right in front of an industrial microwave antenna, but
| only there and that has nothing to do with pigments.
| BSEdlMMldESB wrote:
| []
| RankingMember wrote:
| You're getting downvoted because what you're saying doesn't
| make any logical sense, not because of any "taboos".
| tempaway43355 wrote:
| Your question makes no sense in the context of epilepsy. I
| genuinely have no idea what you are talking about
| jwestbury wrote:
| Nerve stimulation implants are really exciting. I have sleep
| apnea, and while I take to CPAP therapy pretty well, I hate
| having to travel with the device and I hate its limitations. When
| we travel, I have to ensure there's an outlet somewhere near my
| bed; I can't camp without a massive battery pack for my CPAP; I
| can't go backpacking; and even cuddling my wife at night is a
| challenge because of the hose hanging off my head.
|
| There's now a sleep apnea implant available, which also functions
| based on nerve stimulation, and is apparently quite effective.
| It's still a bit large, so not ideal for those of us who _can_
| deal with a CPAP, but in another 10 years maybe I can stop using
| my CPAP and just get a relatively straightforward surgical
| procedure every 5-10 years. I 'd absolutely do it.
| Bloating wrote:
| Check eBay for medistrom batteries. I can get 1 night for
| AirSense 10 (w/o humidity); 2 nights using resmed portable cpap
| & no issues backpacking with the portable cpap so long as I can
| get a periodic recharge.
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| Also using CPAP and cuddling is a big problem for me as well. I
| have to sleep facing the opposite direction because the
| venthole in the nasal mask I can tolerate (F&P Eson 2) blows on
| her face.
| jwestbury wrote:
| I use a Resmed P30i, which I find really comfortable, but if
| either of the tubes on the side of my head get compressed, it
| gets noiser, or if the vent at the top of the head is too
| close to a surface, which means I now sleep in pretty
| specific positions to avoid disturbing my wife.
|
| Still, better than keeping her up with my incessant snoring,
| I guess.
| Jamesdorsey wrote:
| [flagged]
| thenerdhead wrote:
| You don't need to buy a $750 USD device to do this either. You
| can get away with a very cheap TENS device that has ear clips
| such as:
|
| https://www.tenspros.com/intensity-micro-combo-tens-microcur...
|
| And then look at a study like
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7199464/table/T...
| to determine what settings to use for your condition.
| QuantumGood wrote:
| Easier to read version of the study summaries:
|
| https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ibnJr6MqhHfpkXXzsKOD...
| BizarroLand wrote:
| Part of me is interested, part of me is horrified by the idea
| of DIY electroshock therapy.
| thenerdhead wrote:
| What exactly is DIY here? TENS devices are FDA approved and
| these are well known settings / protocols for different
| conditions.
| samjohnation111 wrote:
| [flagged]
| crtxcr wrote:
| >Further research revealed that the brain communicates with the
| spleen - an organ that plays a critical role in the immune system
| - by sending electrical signals down the vagus nerve. These
| trigger the release of a chemical called acetylcholine that tells
| immune cells to switch off inflammation. Electrically stimulating
| the vagus nerve with an implanted device achieved the same feat.
|
| One might also achieve comparable effects by drinking baking
| soda.
|
| >"We think the cholinergic (acetylcholine) signals that we know
| mediate this anti-inflammatory response aren't coming directly
| from the vagal nerve innervating the spleen, but from the
| mesothelial cells that form these connections to the spleen,"
| O'Connor says.
|
| >While there is no known direct connection between the vagal
| nerve and the spleen -- and O'Connor and his team looked again
| for one -- the treatment also attenuates inflammation and disease
| severity in rheumatoid arthritis, researchers at the Feinstein
| Institute for Medical Research reported in 2016 in the journal
| Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
|
| O'Connor hopes drinking baking soda can one day produce similar
| results for people with autoimmune disease.
|
| https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/04/180425093745.h...
| miek wrote:
| Wow the baking soda thing is really interesting! You should add
| as a submission on HN. Thanks for sharing :)
| [deleted]
| caycep wrote:
| Vagus nerve shenanigans always remind me of that whole NSA hack
| of side loading their custom hackey OS into things like embedded
| USB controllers or other little things on laptops that we never
| think about. Yea, it's not as flashy as interfacing w/ the
| CPU/system RAM directly but it could be useful....
| bjourne wrote:
| My dad has had deep brain stimulation ( _not_ the same as vagnus
| nerve stimulation, but in the same area) for over ten years. It
| helps a lot with his dystonia but he has developed severe
| paranoia which gets progressively worse. Of course you can 't say
| that one caused the other, but I think it is reasonable to be
| cautious about devices that put electricity in your brain.
| Benefits are often instant side-effects may slowly accumulate
| over the years.
| jasonladuke0311 wrote:
| Vagus nerve trauma is how liver shot KO's happen in striking
| arts. I always wondered how this worked.
| https://middleeasy.com/guides/dissecting-the-liver-shot/
| jmount wrote:
| I thought all the Hacker News "smarter than everyone else, self
| prescribers" were still endorsing Adderall, mild hallucinogens,
| and poop-swapping. But, by all means, shine on you crazy
| diamonds.
| InSteady wrote:
| Is your comment intended to mock people who are interested in
| the vagus nerve, people who are interested in self-advocacy in
| the case of health problems, or just everyone on hacker news in
| general? Gotta specify, I'm not sure who I'm supposed to be
| looking down on here.
| fruit2020 wrote:
| Does anyone here suffer from vasovagal syncope and has researched
| the topic more in depth? My last blackout was around one minute
| during a flight, house doctor says I shouldn't be concerned.
| dentalperson wrote:
| There is also 10+ years research for tinnitus using Vagus Nerve
| Stimulation to stop it [1]. Results seem mixed. Many other
| drugs/neuro-stimuli for T have gotten mixed results and passed
| clinical trials such as Leniere only to flop in actual usage.
| It's interesting that the community anecdotal evidence such as
| r/tinnitus and TinnitusTalk are so useful for these cases because
| they are more likely to report negative results at the post-
| approval stage.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7951891/
| gizajob wrote:
| I've got tinnitus and can't really foresee any kind of
| solution. Not sure what the vagus nerve would do given the ears
| go straight in to the brain. Hopefully one day though, I've
| learned to live with it for the time being.
|
| eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...
| blueyes wrote:
| For me, the amazing thing about the Vagus nerve is that you can
| stimulate it with your breathing. And since the Vagus nerve
| affects the autonomic nervous system (involuntary, not
| consciously controlled) while breathing choices are conscious,
| this is one of the few ways that humans can directly impact
| important aspects of their psychology and physiology, like how
| calm they feel. Mindfulness + breath choices + vagus nerve =>
| altered state. And that's why traditions including yoga and
| buddhism empathize breathing. Couple great books that touch on
| this are:
|
| Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art
| https://www.amazon.com/Breath-New-Science-Lost-Art/dp/073521...
|
| and
|
| Altered Traits: Science Reveals How Meditation Changes Your Brain
| https://www.amazon.com/Altered-Traits-Science-Reveals-Medita...
| buildsjets wrote:
| A modern classic would be Holotropic Breathwork, developed by
| Stanislav Grof after the LSD based therapies he had been
| developing in the 1970s were made illegal. Yes, it sounds like
| hippie silliness. But it does have notable effects.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Grof
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Holotropic-Breathwork-Self-Exploratio...
| adriand wrote:
| This might go beyond how you feel and into direct biological
| impacts. I don't listen to the Huberman Lab podcast much these
| days but I did listen to the episode with David Linden, which I
| found quite interesting. [1] At one point, they are discussing
| the mind/body axis and the latest scientific developments in
| exploring how mental states can affect the body. There is a
| fascinating although very untested - but, testable - hypothesis
| that meditation may be able to slow the growth of cancerous
| tumours. The mechanism here is via nerve endings that reach the
| tumour and their effect on immune responses at the site.
|
| Linden was emphatic about how science requires a mechanism of
| action, and that when people refer to this potential effect
| against cancer as due to "alignment of chakras" or whatever, it
| is "bullshit" to use his word.
|
| I get where he's coming from, but on the flip side, the
| benefits of meditative practice were arrived at long before
| science took any note of them. In fact for many years, the
| scientific perspective on it was that it was entirely bullshit.
| Meanwhile the people who were (admittedly incorrectly) talking
| about chakras were delivering real benefits to their followers.
| As such it seems to me that more respect is warranted, and
| perhaps even more caution. What do you think?
|
| 1 https://hubermanlab.com/dr-david-linden-life-death-and-
| the-n...
| digging wrote:
| Haven't listened, but I think I understand where Linden was
| coming from, even if it's unnecessarily harsh. The idea that
| "you can breathe this way and get this effect" can be true
| and can come from folk wisdom, but they ascribe wrong
| reasoning to it which makes it mysticism. The reasoning is
| what's "bullshit". It's like saying "I tie my shoes tight
| every morning to honor the shoe gods or else they'll untie my
| laces." Well actually, you're right to tie your laces tight,
| but only because that's how laces work on a physical level.
|
| The chakras thing, or any other mystical model, is only a
| low-resolution model. It's useful to point you to a correct
| belief, but we have to be careful not to get too invested in
| wrong reasoning. Or else you end up with a system of beliefs
| which may be mostly wrong - ie, "If my X chakra does this for
| me, I am sure my Y chakra does that for me," - when what you
| may be looking for is a completely different phenomenon.
| xgb84j wrote:
| I think these eastern concepts (e.g. meditation concepts such
| as chakras, "organs" in traditional chinese medicine) are not
| meant as objective truths, but rather as useful mental
| models. Different mental models used in the same culture
| often contradict one another, which only makes sense if you
| don't see them as ultimate truth.
| pegasus wrote:
| Well put.
| TriNetra wrote:
| Chakras are real so as Kundalini [0]. However, these aren't
| physical in nature, rather, they are on subtle body of
| consciousness. Now, that's not possible to prove
| scientifically yet, but with your dedicated regular practice,
| you can experience them yourself as this guy on HN did [1]
| which inspired me to start my own exploration (back in 2014)
| and have intense experiences which remains with me.
|
| 0: https://www.amazon.in/Kundalini-untold-story-Om-
| Swami/dp/818... 1:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6910041
| georgeburdell wrote:
| [flagged]
| gourabmi wrote:
| Just because it isn't published in a journal with latin1
| characters doesn't mean it isn't true
| jvanderbot wrote:
| > Now, that's not possible to prove scientifically yet
|
| It may be that there is something to the idea that there
| are ways of stimulating certain parts of the body that
| can produce something like vagus nerve effects, but
| asserting it's true by the name given in an ancient
| mythology is a great way to derail any conversation.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| There's definitely something to chakras. They were always
| my go to example of a thing to make fun of for being
| utterly absurd, without substance and based on something
| deeply unscientific.
|
| Then, after several months of intense meditation I
| started getting strong somatosensory perception in areas
| of my body traditionally associated with chakras, and
| Kundalini awakenings and the like. Terms I only picked up
| on after researching what might be happening.
|
| In short, it strongly appears that if you take a group of
| people and have them perform certain practices for an
| extended period of time, you will create a relatively
| consistent cluster of symptoms.
|
| Eastern mythology/religions have their own language to
| describe these phenomenona, and the alleged mechanisms
| are obviously ridiculous, but there is nevertheless
| something oddly consistent about reported experiences.
|
| Thus, I think it's pretty sound to conclude that there is
| something "real" going on, creating a relatively
| consistent pattern of somatosensory experiences. The
| mechanism is almost certainly explainable by neuroscience
| but has received little serious exploration due to its
| purported mechanism and religious background.
| lovvtide wrote:
| > Linden was emphatic about how science requires a mechanism
| of action
|
| I don't think this is correct. Science is based on
| empiricism. Of course we'd like to understand the mechanism
| of action, but it's not strictly required for scientific
| description of some aspect of reality. For example, Kepler's
| laws were derived from the observed paths of the planets --
| it was only later that these same laws could be explained
| with recourse to the theory of gravity.
| redavni wrote:
| Yeah, he likely meant "Nature" requires a mechanism of
| action.
| lovvtide wrote:
| Even if that is what he meant, I still don't think it's
| correct.
|
| To speak of a "mechanism of action" is necessarily to
| speak about a model of Nature that you, an observer, have
| created.
|
| Natural phenomena exist empirically and logically prior
| to any such model, thus is is metaphysically redundant to
| say that Nature as such requires a mechanism of action.
| BizarroLand wrote:
| Just by box breathing you can willfully lower your blood
| pressure and heart rate a good percentage (low double digits)
| with only a little practice.
| rgrieselhuber wrote:
| I first learned about it when studying martial arts, years
| later science is just starting to realize how important it is.
| bgribble wrote:
| I have this dream scenario where they discover that the gentle
| swirling of a cotton swab in the ear canal stimulates the vagus
| nerve and has these tremendous health benefits, allowing the
| sanctimonious anti-cotton-swab-in-the-ear brigade to sit down and
| shut up for a minute.
| obelos wrote:
| Make those anti-eargasm prudes take a back seat for a while!
| oidar wrote:
| Arnold's nerve cough reflex: evidence for chronic cough as a
| sensory vagal neuropathy
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4222929/
| [deleted]
| fidotron wrote:
| What made me start paying attention to the vagus nerve noise was
| this:
| https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/08/200806092437.h...
|
| This claims to improve language learning through selective non
| invasive stimulation.
|
| The great confusion with these things is given how the body has a
| tendency to recalibrate dynamically to new stable levels of
| stimulation the trick would be finding what sort of on/off
| routine is needed to create the desired effect.
| voisin wrote:
| > Further research revealed that the brain communicates with the
| spleen - an organ that plays a critical role in the immune system
| - by sending electrical signals down the vagus nerve. These
| trigger the release of a chemical called acetylcholine that tells
| immune cells to switch off inflammation.
|
| Isn't inflammation an important process for healing? Too much is
| obviously bad, but if we go turning it off, won't that lead to
| longer term issues?
|
| Shouldn't we be looking to solve what's causing the inflammation
| in the first place?
| theobromananda wrote:
| Not an answer to your question but a comment toward the quote:
|
| In Traditional Chinese Medicine terms, the spleen has always
| been described as the cause of chronic inflammatory disease.
| "Spleen deficiency" the core feature of ulcerative colitis and
| arthritis f.e.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| > Shouldn't we be looking to solve what's causing the
| inflammation in the first place?
|
| I agree with that theory, but so far we haven't been able to
| figure out what really causes many auto immune diseases or how
| to heal them. The current treatment methods involve nasty drugs
| that turn off parts of your immune system entirely, but also
| have various other side effects.
|
| If we can adjust the inflammation threshold, we can fix the
| symptoms while we're looking to solve the underlying problem.
| Fixing chronic inflammation will probably take a few decades at
| least, until then I see no reason why we wouldn't treat the
| symptoms better, especially if it can be done with cheap and
| relatively non-invasive devices.
| mindsuck wrote:
| I'm not a doctor so I won't pretend I understand how these
| treatments work but:
|
| > Tracey immediately recognised the therapeutic implications,
| having spent years trying to develop better treatments for
| inflammatory conditions such as sepsis, arthritis and Crohn's
| disease. Existing drugs dampen inflammation, but carry a risk
| of serious side effects. Here was a technique with the
| potential to switch off inflammation without the need for
| drugs.
|
| I don't think anyone wants to switch off inflammation for
| everyone, all the time or as treatment for everything, but
| there's treatments where it's desired.
| sidewndr46 wrote:
| sepsis isn't an "inflammatory condition". It's a death
| sentence if it isn't dealt with promptly. Lumping that in
| with arthritis renders this meaningless.
| InSteady wrote:
| Sepsis occurs when inflammations goes from being localized
| to being spread throughout your entire body. The bacterial
| infection is obviously the root of the problem, but it's
| the inflammation that actually kills. Being able to turn
| off that severe systemic inflammation might buy doctors
| precious hours or even days to successfully treat the
| infection before the patient's critical organ system shut
| down for good.
|
| As laypeople, should probably take a beat before saying
| statements made by experts and medical researchers are
| "meaningless."
|
| From google:
|
| >Sepsis is a highly inflammatory disorder with the presence
| of organ dysfunction in severe cases and mostly caused by
| bacterial infection (Bone et al., 1989).
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| All sorts of medications inhibit inflammation because the body
| often goes apeshit and the "cure" becomes worse than the
| disease.
|
| Having more control over it with simpler interventions would be
| a good thing.
| harvie wrote:
| So you are basicaly telling me than scientists found out that i
| can get some more alertness by slaping myself in the face?
| yamrzou wrote:
| The vagus nerve can also be stimulated by diaphragmatic breathing
| exercises and longer exhalations, see [1] and [2].
|
| [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-athletes-
| way/2...
|
| [2] https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-athletes-
| way/2....
| jossclimb wrote:
| I feel down this rabbit hole after reading Breath by James
| Nestor. Got serious about practising 5.5 second inhales /
| exhales and started forcing myself to adjust to nose breathing
| (even during exercise)
|
| It did a total number on my anxiety levels and pulled me out of
| the constant cortisol fuelled fight or flight mode I found
| myself as I slowly crashed and burned into the ground
|
| I wish someone had taught me as a child, it would have made a
| marked difference on my life, I am sure of it.
| baby wrote:
| Post the technique here so lazy people like me can read about
| it!
| broguinn wrote:
| I read the same book, and while it did help me in several
| respects (nasal breathing, mandibular and maxillar
| expansion via an orthodontic device, mouth taping), I only
| used its box breathing techniques under acute stress. It
| wasn't until I read a chapter in Peter Attia's Outlive
| about breathing techniques that I started changing my
| breathing in a way that, for me, feels like it's actively
| stimulating the vagus nerve. Here's how it works.
|
| You want to breathe to expand your entire diaphragm,
| breathing into your upper and lower chest. One way to do
| this is to breathe through your nose slowly enough that you
| can't hear the sound of your own breathing.
|
| To get a hang of it, lay on your back on a flat surface,
| place a hand on your stomach and a hand on your chest, and
| breathe in slowly. You should feel your stomach and chest
| rise evenly, neither too much in the stomach, nor too much
| in the chest.
|
| Once you understand this feeling, you can practice it
| throughout your day. You feel your whole diaphragm expand,
| feeling the tension through your chest, stomach, and even
| expanding into your lower back. Anyways, that's how it's
| described in the book. I can say that since starting this
| breathing technique, I've felt a lot calmer. Best of luck,
| check the book out if you'd like a far more detailed and
| accurate explanation than mine.
| eep_social wrote:
| > 5.5 second inhales / exhales
|
| > nose breathing
|
| They did! Breathe in and out through your nose, spending
| 5.5 seconds each on inhale and exhale. This leads to taking
| the "optimal" 5.5 breaths per minute. Try to do this all
| the time but don't experiment with new techniques when
| you're driving a car or operating heavy machinery.
|
| The book talks about all kinds of other stuff too but
| that's the tl;dr.
| QuantumGood wrote:
| Highlighted in the book:
|
| Nasal Breathing: Inhaling and exhaling through the nose to
| filter and humidify the air, increase oxygen uptake, and
| engage in diaphragmatic breathing.
|
| Tummo Breathing: A Tibetan practice combining visualization
| and breath control, involving deep inhalations and
| exhalations to generate body heat.
|
| Holotropic Breathwork: Rapid and deep breaths, usually
| accompanied by music, to achieve altered states of
| consciousness.
|
| Buteyko Method: Focuses on shallow and reduced breathing to
| increase CO2 levels, promoting relaxation and better oxygen
| uptake.
|
| Box Breathing: Inhaling, holding the breath, exhaling, and
| holding the breath again, all for an equal count, to calm
| the mind and increase focus.
|
| Pranayama: Various yogic breathing techniques to control
| breath and energy, aiming to balance the body and mind.
|
| Pursed Lip Breathing: Inhaling through the nose and
| exhaling slowly through pursed lips to improve lung
| function and control.
|
| Sudarshan Kriya: A rhythmic breathing technique used in
| conjunction with meditation to reduce stress.
|
| I teach a simplified breathing method for actors called
| "Flash Breathing" that teaches a series of breaths starting
| at the speed of gasping, ending at the speed of slow, deep
| breathing, and concentrating on the "space" between
| exhaling and inhaling. Very effective.
| talldrinkofwhat wrote:
| I think they're talking about box
| breathing:https://www.healthline.com/health/box-breathing
|
| 4s:Full breath in
|
| 4s:Hold
|
| 4s:Full breath out
|
| 4s:Hold*
|
| *this one seems the least natural to me as you're just
| sitting there, at the bottom of an invisible pool, wasting
| away.
| baby wrote:
| Interestingly Huberman talks about double breath in, then
| long breath out.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBdhqBGqiMc
| buescher wrote:
| Off and on, I've been seeing woo about the vagus nerve for a
| while. This article was refreshingly balanced. Now I know:
| "Tracey's discovery also caught the attention of mind-body
| practitioners, including the Dutch motivational speaker and
| "Iceman" Wim Hof". Aha. Indeed.
|
| Where is the rest of this stuff coming from? Is there a deeper
| dive?
| hnbad wrote:
| Any mention of Wim Hof deserves a mention of the fact that the
| "Wim Hof Method" has a perfect verification mechanism: Wim Hof
| has a twin brother who does not practice the method and
| performs similarly well on most of the tests supposed to
| demonstrate the method's efficacy:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24773331
|
| In other words: there's likely a genetic factor at play much
| like no amount of training will give you the genetic advantage
| Phelps has in terms of wing span and lung capacity:
| https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/olympic-g...
| esperent wrote:
| > similarly well on most of the tests
|
| From your link they checked exactly one thing: shivering
| response to cold following breathing exercises. Both twins
| did exactly as well on this one test. That's not "most
| tests". It's one test. And personally, being able to
| withstand cold is the least interesting claimed benefit of
| breathing techniques.
| swader999 wrote:
| Yes! And it's so easy to just try it and see for yourself.
| Laughable that anyone wouldn't just take ten minutes to see
| if it does anything.
| giantg2 wrote:
| There are a whole bunch of vagus nerve manipulations in current
| medicine. Many are quite common to self treat for things like
| converting episodes of SVT. Although the effectiveness is mixed.
| If they could find a non-drug treatment for Afib, I bet that
| would be big money based on the potential population and the
| current drug cocktail side effects.
| jbandela1 wrote:
| > One thing that makes the vagus nerves so attractive is surgical
| accessibility in the neck. "It is quite easy to implant some
| device that will try to stimulate them," says Dr Benjamin
| Metcalfe at the University of Bath, who is studying how the body
| responds to electrical vagus nerve stimulation.
|
| Did these (with supervision) during residency. As far as
| neurosurgeries go, fairly simple. You just have to be careful
| when you expose the vagus nerve as it lies between the carotid
| artery and the jugular vein.
|
| This is in contrast to Deep Brain Stimulation which involves
| making a hole in the skull, exposing the brain, and inserting
| electrodes deep within the brain.
| Balgair wrote:
| I did some work on DBS devices.
|
| Yeah, that's an intense surgery.
|
| The MD doing the implantation was a rockin' bitch-ass
| motherfucking stone cold killer. Sorry for all the curse words,
| but that's the best way to describe her. I've never been near
| someone so dead calm no matter what. Just ice in the veins. She
| was ~6'5" and wore 6" stilettos all the time. That surgeon had
| _presence_. I 'd never want to meet her in a back alley late at
| night.
|
| We were developing a new technique to help out with
| implantation. One of the hard parts of DBS is knowing where to
| leave the stimulating end of the electrodes. You want to hit a
| specific region, but as everyone's brain is different, there's
| no way to stereotype the process. We had a little optical
| sensor that we were trying to use to guide the electrodes and
| see differences in the neuronal density. The place you leave
| the electrodes is in an area of relatively high density (S.
| Nigra). Bunch of Fourier analysis, machine learning, and
| machine vision went into it.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| ML for how to direct implantation, or the signals it
| produced?
| tempaway43355 wrote:
| One of my children has severe epilepsy and has a Vagus Nerve
| Stimulation device implanted - Sentiva 1000
|
| https://www.livanova.com/epilepsy-vnstherapy/en-gb/hcp/produ...
|
| It has really helped although obviously it took surgery and then
| also nine months of slowly tweaking the settings.
|
| Before the VNS they could (for example) not go on a trampoline
| for more than a few minutes without having a seizure, but now
| they're fine all day. They did still have seizures at night after
| the VNS but we tackled those with a different treatment.
|
| The Sentiva 1000 sends regular soft pulses (for one minute every
| 3.5 minutes) and can also react to heart rate rising suddenly
| (which might mean a seizure) by automatically increasing its
| pulses. During a seizure if we want to manually activate the
| device we swipe over its location with a strong magnet and that
| activates it to send stronger pulses for a minute or so.
|
| Batteries last about eight years. A few times a year we go to
| check the battery, the nurses have an ipad and a wand-type thing
| that they hold over the implants location, it uses some sort of
| low power NFC to read data and diagnostics from the implant. When
| we do need to change the battery that will be an operation. But
| less complicated than the initial operation (and even that was
| in-and-out in one day)
|
| All pretty amazing.
| spread_love wrote:
| Thanks for sharing. I'm considering VNS but frankly I'm
| terrified of complications and recovery time.
| tempaway43355 wrote:
| Operation was in-and-out of hospital in one day. Then had a
| big cellophane-like bandage on neck and shoulder area that
| had to be kept clean and air-tight for 2 weeks. It was a good
| bandage though, just had to patch it up occasionally with new
| layers of cellophane-stuff. Main possible complication would
| be infection (worse case is that device then has to be
| removed) or some people have side effect where it feels like
| their throat is ticked and they cough when device activates.
| We didn't have any problems.
|
| Then once its all healed they turn the device using nfc wand
| thing and then slowly increase the power bit by bit over
| several months. There are various timing and frequency
| settings that can be experimented with.
| karaterobot wrote:
| Here's a silly question: does your child feel the nerve
| stimulation when it happens?
| tempaway43355 wrote:
| Thats a good question not a silly one. They don't have the
| communication skills to tell me but they dont seem to be
| aware of it. Apparently some people experience it as a
| tingling sensation in throat or neck.
| adversaryIdiot wrote:
| i wonder why the battery cant be charged wirelessly
| tempaway43355 wrote:
| Interesting idea. Current battery in the device (I looked it
| up) is:
|
| Chemistry: Lithium carbon monofluoride
|
| Voltage: 3.3 V, open circuit
|
| Rated capacity: 1 Amp-hour
|
| Self-discharge rate: <1% per year
|
| Its a tiny non-rechargeable battery presumably carefully
| picked for safety and very slow usage over several years.
|
| I suppose the main barrier to wireless charging of implant
| batteries would be heat - wireless charging generates heat.
| And when something goes wrong with wireless charging it can
| generate a lot of heat. So I guess its risky? But then
| surgery to change a battery is also a significant risk.
|
| Also I guess someone would have to go through the long
| process with the FDA of getting it all approved, whereas (at
| a guess) people designing implants try and use already-proven
| components and techniques where they can to make approval
| more likely.
| sudodude wrote:
| Could also just be a battery lifetime issue? 8 years is a
| long time. If they made it rechargeable, they might still
| need to replace it every 8 years anyway just for safety.
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| This is so awesome - thanks for sharing this - my daughter also
| has epilepsy, but it is fortunately controlled by medication.
|
| It seems that stimulating the vagus nerve resets something to
| default in the brainstem when a cascade event is about to occur
| - probably shuts down the errant signals from propagating to
| the entire brain ???.
|
| Do you know which lobe in her brain it happens ??? (my daughter
| has left temporal lobe)
| tempaway43355 wrote:
| My child has Dravet syndrome so its quite major seizure
| activity and many different seizure types (tc, absence,
| focal, myoclonic). I think slightly more left lobe than right
| but its been a while since we had a full EEG. VNS is known to
| help with Dravet in enough cases that they were prepared to
| try the VNS.
|
| The VNS can help stop seizures but also there's a sortof
| long-term effect from just having it firing every few minutes
| all the time, seems to re-train the brain in some way. I'm
| not sure if they really know how it works, just that it seems
| to help.
|
| Another non-medication treatment that was very good for us
| was the ketogenic diet. Like, hardcore proper ketogenic diet,
| 4:1 ratio, prescribed and monitored by an NHS dietician.
| Every meal measured out by the gram. Its hard work but it did
| work very well. Its been properly researched -
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16146451/
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25524846/ - for Dravet
| syndrome at least, keto is as effective as the best AEDs with
| fewer side effects.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| victorbjorklund wrote:
| Wow, I had no idea that the science around the vagus nerve had
| progressed so far that we actually have implants that can be
| used in humans. Amazing. I'm so happy it helps your child.
| civilitty wrote:
| I was really skeptical that any of these nerve stimulation
| devices would work over a decade ago when the hype first
| started growing around them (among biotech investors, not the
| public). It just sounded way too good to be true but since
| then there have been a number of devices treating migraines
| and seizures that were previously intractable.
|
| Really happy to be proven wrong!
| qiine wrote:
| > Can you provide more info about nerve stimulation devices
| treating migraines ?
| voxic11 wrote:
| https://www.gammacore.com/about/how-gammacore-works/
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