[HN Gopher] The sticky history of baklava
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The sticky history of baklava
Author : prismatic
Score : 38 points
Date : 2023-08-23 05:05 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.smithsonianmag.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.smithsonianmag.com)
| Terr_ wrote:
| > "Baklava is made by thinning the dough to a fine micro-degree,
| and by putting 10 or 11 layers on top of each other by hand,"
| says Gullu. It is not a process conducive to automation.
|
| Actually, that sounds incredibly conducive to automation... A
| quick search, shows people are already selling machines to do it.
| hot_gril wrote:
| I think most baklava comes from factories, and whichever ones
| don't taste so good, it's probably just because they didn't use
| the best/freshest ingredients.
| WeylandYutani wrote:
| Whether baklava is Greek or Turkish or Syrian is a silly question
| because none of those countries are even 300 years old.
|
| But Greek restaurants were the first to arrive in Western cities
| so that's how the world sees it.
| adolph wrote:
| Some countries are named for particular cultures which have
| existed for longer than a particular government using the name.
| For example, the current governing body of "France" was
| established 4 October 1958 [0]. But if you go to a French
| bakery you might buy a fresh croissant which dates to maybe
| 1839 [1]. Is that not still French even though the current
| republic is over a hundred years younger?
|
| 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_France
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croissant
| tamiral wrote:
| Syria isnt 300 years old ? Damascus is one of the oldest cities
| in the world.....
| mminer237 wrote:
| The Syrian Arab Republic was established in 1961, and its
| current form of government was only adopted in 2012. Damascus
| is old; Syria is not.
| [deleted]
| toyg wrote:
| I think the parent poster meant that the specific modern
| countries are fairly new, and before _they were all part of
| the same entities_. Greece and Turkey were both part of the
| Byzantine Empire for centuries, and later part of the
| successor Ottoman Empire - together with Syria - again for
| centuries. Separate "national" identities for those areas
| didn't really exist until the XIX century, when Greeks
| started agitating for independence from Ottoman rule.
| Alupis wrote:
| Weird way to say it. The governments of these modern-day
| countries are not representative of the people of those
| regions.
|
| There has been a Greek culture (if not country) practically
| forever. Saying somehow the Greek people are a new people
| is just wrong.
|
| That would be like saying China was created in the 1950's.
| The current government maybe, but not the culture, history,
| cuisine, etc.
| hot_gril wrote:
| and France in 1945 edit: oh, 1958
| balloonthief wrote:
| Calling anything that came from before the 19th century a
| result of "Greek" culture makes things a bit murky,
| though. If, hypothetically, baklava was developed in what
| is now Istanbul, is it a result of Greek, Turkish,
| Byzantine, Roman, Persian, or Ottoman culture? The answer
| is that it's a silly question.
| hot_gril wrote:
| Not anything. Baklava is probably a silly question. Greek
| alphabet or most of Hagia Sophia, that was created by
| Greeks.
| balloonthief wrote:
| The Greek alphabet, sure, but Hagia Sophia? The one that
| was ordered to be built by a Roman emperor and
| consecrated by a Christian bishop from Antioch? I would
| describe it as Roman, Byzantine, or Ottoman before I
| would describe it as Greek.
| Alupis wrote:
| Even so, we do have clear examples of Greek Culture,
| since practically the beginning of records, even if that
| culture has been influenced by other cultures over time
| (as most cultures are).
|
| Even conquered peoples generally maintain their culture
| as the culture or sub-culture of whatever society they
| live in. The governments might fall, but the people's
| culture usually lives on.
| hot_gril wrote:
| When we're talking about 500 years ago and say "Greek," we
| aren't referring to the modern nations. It means the Greek
| people. But I think with food it's usually an unsolvable
| mystery which exact culture invented it or whatever.
|
| The Ottoman Empire's own administration did categorize its
| peoples sorta based on religion and apply different laws to
| them. The millets were Muslims, Greeks, Armenians,
| Circassians, and more. These were meaningful designations
| that persisted across generations because of how marriage
| tended to stay within the same religious sect. Besides
| that, I've heard the closest thing to a national identity
| back then was the nearest city, rather than the empire. The
| major cities in that region were ethnically diverse, so
| some of your culture specifically had to do with your city,
| while other aspects had to do with your ethnicity/religion.
|
| In this case, baklava supposedly originated in Antep. I
| don't know what the ethnic makeup was like in the 1500s
| there, but I'd wager it was picked up by multiple cultures
| around the same time there (someone can prove me wrong if
| not). So if you really want to give "credit" to some people
| for it, I think Antep is the most correct (and I don't just
| mean politically correct) answer.
| spapas82 wrote:
| Here in Greece (actually central Greece) houses traditionally
| make Baklava for the Christmas - new years eve period. It is
| considered a "holiday" treat.
|
| Most people use almonds to fill it and ready-made pie-sheets
| (from the supermarket, these are common in Greece because people
| use them to make pies). It's not difficult to make but, because
| it needs a lot of almonds it has very expensive, that's why it's
| not usual to make it on other times.
|
| I don't really like it, I find it boring.
| besnn00 wrote:
| Same situation for albanians but we use walnuts instead of
| almonds.
| hannofcart wrote:
| > ...I find it boring
|
| If a multi-layered, crunchy, sweet dessert with filings of
| various nuts, and dipped in clarified butter, with a little
| salt to the mix is "boring", I'd love to know of a dessert that
| you consider 'interesting'.
| anthomtb wrote:
| Every time I have tried baklava it was so overpoweringly
| sweet that I could not manage to finish even a tiny piece.
| The sugar/honey overwhelmed everything else. So count me as
| one that agrees with baklava being "boring".
| spapas82 wrote:
| Hmmm probably I had eaten that too many times as a kid so now
| as an adult I dislike it? Or maybe it's the way that people
| here make it? It all depends on the execution!
|
| An interesting desert for me? Not really easy to answer, I
| guess I'm not into sweets very much ...
| OfSanguineFire wrote:
| The Balkans has a strong baklava tradition after centuries of
| Turkish occupation, but today virtually any confectionary shop,
| even the poshest, is going to use palm oil. You aren't getting
| the original recipe with butter or olive oil unless you do the
| whole painstaking process at home. I wonder if the same has
| become true in Turkey as well.
| MilStdJunkie wrote:
| Baklava isn't really all that hard to make in your home kitchen
| if you use premade phyllo, available in almost every
| supermarket (in the US, anyway, although I also saw it in
| London and Germany). Then you can alter the fats and volatiles
| as much as you please. The hardest part, in this instance, is
| finding the precisely correct thawing time for the frozen
| phyllo. Too little, it is brittle and breaks instantly; too
| much, and it is sodden.
|
| I typically like to make an all-butter version with walnuts and
| almonds, and a very tangy citrus-forward honey cinnamon syrup,
| with the citrus halves simmered in the syrup for many hours.
| Which, TIL, makes my baklava sort-of-Cypriot. I've also made
| piles of vegan baklava, replacing butter with shortening, for
| those vegans that don't accept honey as an animal product. I
| suppose bees aren't really "kept" so much as "employed".
| dspillett wrote:
| I make my own, the pastry is available easily in the UK
| (sometimes not in stock everywhere, it isn't as common as
| other types of pastry). I buy refrigerated rather than frozen
| and have not had an issue with getting the warming-to-work-
| with timing OK.
|
| Easy to make. A bit time consuming perhaps, but worth it.
| I've had mine "approved" by a colleague with Turkish family
| and a Greek orthodox grandmother, so it can't be bad!
| adolph wrote:
| Yes, homemade is the best. My mom makes it with honey and
| pecans making them sort-of-Texan. I'm ok with the phyllo
| breaking a bit--once you slather it with butter, lay it in
| and bake it, who cares?
| orhmeh09 wrote:
| Not the good ones from Antep. They use clarified butter.
| jusquan wrote:
| There's a baklava place in SF called Baklava Story that is hands
| down the best baklava I have ever had and probably will ever will
| have. The owner, Tolgay, travels to Turkey each year to source
| pistachios and milk to make butter with from specific farms each
| year. With the residual milk from making clarified butter from
| the Turkish milk, he makes soap, and gives it to customers.
|
| Every single one of his reviews on Google and yelp are 5 stars. I
| deeply admire folks that invest so much of their time into one
| craft (especially if it happens to be edible) to become the best
| [deleted]
| yuy910616 wrote:
| by the dandelion factory right? I biked passed it yesterday and
| saw that they just reopened.
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| This is one of my retirement dreams. Not baklava, but take a
| food item that I cherish (I won't divulge which one!), and
| execute on it as well as I can possibly imagine, vertically
| integrating as much of the inputs as possible. I love his
| minimal waste approach with the auxiliary soap output.
|
| Basically, the Unix philosophy applied to cuisine.
| JR1427 wrote:
| I love baklava, especially with pistachios and rosewater. They
| used to make some good stuff in a great kebab shop in North
| Kensington, London, called Fez Mangal. It's the kind of place
| that has photos of famous customers all over the wall, but kept
| prices at an affordable level.
| dabluecaboose wrote:
| What a wonderful read! I have particularly fond associations with
| Baklava relating to my favorite Greek restaurant, Grecian Gyro.
| Both of my parents would often take me there if we were in the
| area.
|
| I particularly liked this bit at the end: [Regarding the dispute
| over the origins of Baklava]:
|
| >However, Efkan Gullu, the master baklava baker from Gaziantep,
| prefers to look at it another way.
|
| >"These are places that have historically been interconnected and
| have been on the same trade routes," he says. "But also, more
| fundamentally, it means that we cook in similar ways." Their
| shared histories are reflected in their recipes, with each baker
| adding new, local flair to an ancient classic, like layers upon
| layers of sweet pastry.
| calrain wrote:
| I still remember going up to a guy at a market who was selling
| Baklava and asking him for 'Two pieces of Balaclava please".
|
| I didn't notice until my partner said after we walked away, "You
| asked for Balaclava!" haha
|
| Will never live it down...
| atahanacar wrote:
| I swear I've seen this post and exact same comments earlier
| today.
|
| Edit: it looks like "X minutes ago" feature is broken. Tooltips
| show the correct time, which is more than 10 hours ago, while it
| shows 15 minutes ago.
| susam wrote:
| This post has been rescued by the second chance pool at
| https://news.ycombinator.com/pool
|
| When this happens, the relative timestamps (X minutes ago etc.)
| are reset to the time at which the post is selected for the
| front page. The absolute timestamps in the tooltips, like you
| have discovered, show the actual time in this case.
| atahanacar wrote:
| Interesting, didn't know about that.
| steno132 wrote:
| Hot take: Packaged baklava blows bakery (fresh) baklava out of
| the water.
|
| Age or ingredients don't matter much.
|
| Baklava needs to be made just right to work. There's no room for
| error. And the machines seem to have a upper hand over us on
| precision.
| beebeepka wrote:
| Hard disagree but I guess we have access to completely
| different packaged baklava and grannies that make this yummy
| stuff.
| steno132 wrote:
| I've had both. The granny's peak baklava may be better, I'll
| concede.
|
| But the median packaged baklava blows the granny's median
| baklava out of the water. There's no contest.
| hot_gril wrote:
| I agree, same with hummus.
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| I've certainly had bakery baklava that was worse than store-
| bought. But there are a couple bakeries in Istanbul that make
| some that blow anything else I've ever tasted (baklava or
| otherwise) out of the water.
| steno132 wrote:
| New Jersey baklava is much better than Istanbul baklava
| actually. Try it.
|
| Immigrants touch I guess?
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