[HN Gopher] Demystifying ESIM Technology [video]
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Demystifying ESIM Technology [video]
Author : awat
Score : 64 points
Date : 2023-08-20 15:50 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (media.ccc.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (media.ccc.de)
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| For those with multiple phones, how easy is switching back and
| forth?
| mrtksn wrote:
| Unfortunately, the support for transferring eSIM between
| devices is not universal and some operators choose not to
| support it and charge money for each transfer(i.e. charge money
| to generate a QR code). The tech is fine but the greedy telcos
| don't miss the opportunity to screw us over.
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| Well crap. I guess for the foreseeable future it's an iPhone
| 13.
| eimrine wrote:
| Esim is a death for featured phones.
| 8K832d7tNmiQ wrote:
| Nothing stops feature-phone vendors like Nokia to implement
| e-sim on their newer lineup.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| For who wonders about the waving cat: These are used a lot at
| hacker conferences to check if the cams are still working (and
| not frozen). Shenanigans on the network are of course common at
| these events :) So they are put on the stages while nothing is
| on.
|
| This was a big success and it turned out to be a bit of a
| mascotte :P They've become a permanent fixture now.
| noman-land wrote:
| I always wondered about this. Thank you.
| SeriousM wrote:
| I thought it's a smart way to combat video cutting
| anderspitman wrote:
| I've had a great experience with eSIMs these past few days during
| a trip to Europe (coming from the US). It's so convenient to be
| able to arrive at a city and use airport wifi to download a
| mobile data package for a few bucks. The process is slightly
| clunky but not bad at all.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| I'm in Europe and I've had very poor experiences with local
| carriers in getting an eSIM :( Most of them outright refuse
| unless you are on a mobile contract plan with them (I'm not, I
| hate contracts so I only use prepay). On prepay they don't want
| to support it here in Spain for whatever stupid reason even
| though I've had my prepay number for 10 years. They also levy
| much more restrictions on the whole ordeal: Usually only
| locally sold models are allowed. So you can't use a Dutch
| Samsung phone with a Spanish eSIM. I'm really annoyed with this
| because the whole idea of eSIM was to make things easier for
| the customer, not harder and more restrictive.
|
| Perhaps the carriers that specialise in temporary data
| contracts for travelers are ok, but local permanent carriers
| are crap with this.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > the whole idea of eSIM was to make things easier for the
| customer, not harder and more restrictive.
|
| I remember reading an article in a French newspaper about how
| carriers were "uncomfortable" with the eSIM because it
| severed "the last connection" between them and their
| customers. The latter would basically no longer have a reason
| to "interact" with the former.
|
| I don't quite see how that's a bad thing. The less you have
| to deal with "those people" (and this works from either
| side), the better it is, no? In my case, the last time I've
| "interacted" with my carrier was some 10 years ago when my
| phone got stolen, and I had to get a new SIM. Other than
| that, I pay them every month and they make sure my phone
| works every month.
|
| At least with my carrier, it's cheaper to get an eSIM than a
| physical SIM. I didn't actually get one, since I've had my
| current SIM for a very long time. They basically charge for
| the "SIM service", and there's a separate charge for the
| physical part if you get it in a brick & mortar store, or for
| shipping if you want it delivered.
|
| > Usually only locally sold models are allowed.
|
| How can they tell, are there still country-specific models? I
| know people from the US and from Russia coming to France,
| popping a local SIM in and being in business. These were all
| iPhones, though.
| jdietrich wrote:
| _> I remember reading an article in a French newspaper
| about how carriers were "uncomfortable" with the eSIM
| because it severed "the last connection" between them and
| their customers._
|
| That's a very delicate euphemism for "eSIM makes it easier
| to switch networks, which would increase churn and eat into
| our margins".
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > The less you have to deal with "those people" (and this
| works from either side), the better it is, no?
|
| The less contact, the less opportunity to upsell you to
| something that provides them recurring revenue.
|
| It's all about rent seeking ("passive income") these days,
| everywhere.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > I don't quite see how that's a bad thing
|
| But how is the carrier going to "engage" you? How are all
| the people involved in sales and marketing there going to
| justify their job?
|
| A carrier that operates fully automatically with minimal
| customer interaction could indeed be more profitable, but
| it's politically impossible for any established company to
| transition to such a model since it would obviate the need
| for many positions there - those same positions rely on the
| current status-quo (no matter how mediocre) and will fight
| any attempts at improving efficiency.
|
| (this is not limited to carriers, any large legacy company
| has the same issues - lots of positions are just there to
| create work to sustain other, equally-useless positions,
| while the new output of the system being zero or even
| negative).
| raincom wrote:
| People use Airalo app to buy eSIMs, wherever they travel to.
| One can buy eSIM even before you land in foreign lands. I
| don't have experience with Airalo, but many recommended that
| app on this site.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Ah ok, but that's only for temporary use, it's not intended
| for real permanent usage, right?
|
| I'll consider it if I ever travel outside of europe though
| (roaming inside EU was fixed several years ago luckily).
| yosito wrote:
| What makes you think it's for temporary use? I've been
| using it for over a year as my only data plan.
| em500 wrote:
| This might be because most countries nowadays require a
| photo ID for SIM cards. The Netherlands, UK and US are
| among the few that don't (yet).
|
| https://prepaid-data-sim-
| card.fandom.com/wiki/Registration_P...
| raincom wrote:
| For instance, Eurolink eSIM card with 180 days validity
| can be had for 180 euros on Airalo.com. They also have
| re-chargeable eSIMs, just you need to top up just before
| it expires.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Ah but that is really really expensive :)
|
| I can get a local SIM with 50GB data that is available
| with a 10 euro topup each month.
|
| Don't forget the purchasing power in Europe is much lower
| than in the US (especially southern Europe). For this
| reason local carriers are a lot cheaper too.
| throwaway67743 wrote:
| If argue that it's the opposite as there is competition
| and in civilised European countries there is working
| regulation etc, not like the US where carriers are able
| to lobby and cheat to maintain their monopolies - case in
| point I have unlimited everything (Inc 5g, except MMS) in
| country and 64G in the rest of Europe for about 30 EUR/mo
| ranma42 wrote:
| Vodafone in Germany was happy to give me an eSIM for a
| prepaid plan, not even a store visit required (but it did
| require taking a photo of my ID and a identity verification
| video call where someone checks your video against the ID). I
| guess with AI-based video manipulation, a store visit may be
| required in the future...
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > a store visit may be required in the future...
|
| Or not, considering how store employees are treated and
| paid. It's probably much cheaper to bribe some low-level
| clerk than build & deploy a convincing AI spoofing
| solution.
| someotherperson wrote:
| They're very useful. Although it's sometimes hard to get eSIMs
| direct from carriers internationally since many only grant them
| on post-paid contracts.
|
| SIM cards also have their place, however, which is why Apple's
| take on it is weird. When traveling, especially with so much
| MFA (for better or worse) is linked to a phone number, it makes
| having your phone damaged a major issue. You can't simply pop
| out the SIM and move it across to a new phone.
|
| Even if you manage to get a new eSIM, most of the time you
| can't activate it until you're back in your origin country.
|
| This as an issue (carrier or otherwise) needs to be addressed
| with some urgency.
| WallyFunk wrote:
| > SIM cards also have their place
|
| They're trying to kill physical SIM cards like they did with
| CDs. They only have their place insofar as you can say 'I can
| touch this, and also swap it out with another one' /
| otherwise 'tangible computing'.
| housemusicfan wrote:
| Killing off physical SIMs is like arguing in favor of
| soldered RAM.
|
| Because that's all eSIMs are you know. They are not
| software SIMs. They are physical components with the
| additional capability of being provisioned remotely by the
| end user with a friendly UI that sometimes works.
|
| Moving physical SIMs (and thus your service) from a
| damaged, inoperable phone to a new one takes approximately
| 5 seconds. This cannot be improved upon with eSIM.
|
| That said, eSIMs have their place too, especially in the
| industrial IoT space. But completely eliminating physical
| SIMs from consumer handsets is beyond stupid.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| > They're very useful. Although it's sometimes hard to get
| eSIMs direct from carriers internationally since many only
| grant them on post-paid contracts.
|
| Exactly, this is a huge problem for me because I don't do
| post-paid (after one bill with unintended overage charges, I
| much prefer them just cutting me off until I pay again).
|
| The sim swapping being controlled by the provider (every time
| you need a new QR and they need to 'grant' it to you) is more
| restrictive too, and they usually enforce only models they
| sell directly. It's a real loss of flexibility that we used
| to have with hardware SIMs.
| housemusicfan wrote:
| This can easily be resolved by not buying an Apple phone and
| buying a phone that still retains a physical SIM slot.
|
| Stop giving companies money for making stupid decisions. It
| only emboldens them further.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| The Samsung Z Flip 5 has this too :( Only 1 real SIM and
| the rest only eSIM.
|
| However it is a bit more understandable because the flip
| has very limited space due to the hinge components.
| housemusicfan wrote:
| The USA versions of Apple's flagship phones (iPhone 14
| and up) have ZERO physical SIM slots. They are dual eSIM
| only.
|
| Models sold elsewhere in the world retain a single
| physical SIM slot.
|
| Yes you read that correctly. They made multiple versions
| and the American one is deliberately crippled.
|
| I'm certain the space regained by removing the SIM slot
| in a US-only variant has been repurposed for...absolutely
| nothing.
|
| It defies logic why they would do this, beyond some grand
| social experiment they can execute with little risk due
| to cult-like monopoly control of the market.
|
| I refuse to believe that they sold more than 12 of these
| SIM-less phones.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| What?? I had no idea about this. I have not had an iPhone
| since the 6 so I haven't followed it that closely. I
| remember they offered eSIM for dualsim, I had no idea
| they were eSIM only in the US even for primary SIM use.
| Wow. This will so not work over here.
|
| > I'm certain the space regained by removing the SIM slot
| in a US-only variant has been repurposed for...absolutely
| nothing.
|
| Yeah, after all the specs are no different in any other
| way I guess?
|
| Samsung is doing something similar here though. They
| leave out the mmWave antennas. On US models you can see
| the antenna cutouts on their premium models but in Europe
| there is nothing in that space, just empty.
|
| It's a shame because while mmWave is not a thing here
| right now I don't buy my phones for just one year.
| housemusicfan wrote:
| Specs typically vary slightly with LTE band support but
| nothing that would drive large mechanical changes. This
| was a deliberate move, an A/B test of sorts.
|
| Good point on the mmWave support. I wonder if that's
| where the antenna is located. I don't care about mmWave,
| nor does anyone I know, so it doesn't even cross my mind.
|
| mmWave is a dying tech. It will suffer the same fate as
| WiMAX. If this is the trade off (and it shouldn't be),
| I'll choose the SIM slot every time.
| toast0 wrote:
| > mmWave is a dying tech. It will suffer the same fate as
| WiMAX. If this is the trade off (and it shouldn't be),
| I'll choose the SIM slot every time.
|
| I think mmWave has a lot more staying power than WiMAX.
| WiMAX as deployed was an alternative network to general
| purpose cell phone networks. As a third alternative to
| CDMA/GSM and upcoming LTE, it didn't make a lot of sense
| in the market.
|
| mmWave is deployed as augmentation to a network, mostly
| to increase capacity at hotspots like stadiums and maybe
| transit centers. Additionally it provides beneficial
| marketting, because network providers and handset makers
| can claim their network/device does huge bandwidth even
| if it's only true when you're the only person in a
| stadium.
|
| Given that US iPhone 12 and up support mmWave, and that
| spectrum management is a challenge at stadiums, it's
| pretty likely we'll continue to see deployments in that
| space. Even if mmWave doesn't live up to the marketting,
| moving half the customers to it frees up traditional
| spectrum for those customers that don't have it.
|
| Is it going to expand much beyond those situations? Maybe
| to airports and NYC train stations, but probably not
| beyond that. Is it ever going to be more than a small
| fraction of time connected for people other than stadium
| employees? No. Does that mean it's dying? No, it's just a
| constrained niche. Should you prefer a phone with or
| without mmWave? Depends on how often you go into
| situations with high person density.
| housemusicfan wrote:
| Is it a meaningful alternative to Passpoint Wi-Fi in the
| scenarios you described?
| toast0 wrote:
| Yes, but note that carriers will do all of the above. Use
| their licensed 'sub-6g' spectrum where traditional cell
| networks operate; make use of unlicensed spectrum for
| Passpoint Wi-Fi, use (licensed) mmWave spectrum.
|
| Depending on the venue, they're likely to do a mix of
| whatever is most cost effective. But more spectrum, if
| usable by the handsets people actually have in their
| pockets is helpful.
| gorbypark wrote:
| I don't have the time to look, but I saw a YouTube video
| where someone swapped the dual physical sim daughterboard
| from a Chinese iPhone into an American one. It fit and it
| worked. I'm about 80% sure it was a dual eSIM only
| American model (14), but it's possible it was a single
| SIM/single eSIM one (13 and below). Anyways, I am pretty
| sure the space is there and is just unused.
| housemusicfan wrote:
| Amazing, just found a video where they add a SIM slot to
| a US iPhone 14. The space is there and the slot just
| plugs right in. It required removing some resistors (to
| reroute the data lines from the eSIM to the slot). They
| didn't even cut a hole in the chassis for the SIM tray;
| they inserted the card before closing the lid.
|
| This proves it was purely a marketing move which makes
| the decision even more insane.
| richarme wrote:
| My master's thesis from 2008 [0] gives some insight into the
| early design and strategic considerations (from a Nokia
| perspective) behind eSIM technology, in case anyone's curious.
|
| [0] http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/pubdb/edoc/imm6812.pdf
| Veliladon wrote:
| We really dodged a bullet on eSIM. The implementation could have
| really sucked if the carriers controlled it from the start. Apple
| do a lot of dumb shit but they set a really high bar for an eSIM
| implementation for others to match.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| But they _do_ control it. This is a big problem in Europe. You
| can 't get one on a prepay contract with most of the local
| carriers, they limit the phones they will allow them to be used
| on to only locally sold versions, and they often charge for a
| SIM swap or limit the amount of times you can change phones per
| month.
|
| None of these limitations were present with physical SIMs.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| > You can't get one on a prepay contract with most of the
| local carriers,
|
| To be fair, on this particular point it can be incompetence.
| Telecoms have absolutely no skilled engineering capacity
| (third-world body shop is as good as it gets) and the entire
| thing runs on decades of duct tape and outdated, unsupported
| and vulnerable software.
|
| The most likely reason for this not to be possible on prepay
| is that prepay and postpay are managed by completely
| different systems and making the prepay system work with
| eSIMs would be too difficult, or maybe they tried, it broke,
| they rolled it back and have a "TODO" to fix that (of course
| the TODO will never be addressed).
| nexus7556 wrote:
| In Thailand anytime a new SIM is activated an ID check is
| required. In the past I kept a SIM and I used to just move it
| between phones. Now when I want to move my eSIM between
| phones I need to go to the shop with my passport or do a
| video call with tech support and show my passport to them
| over the call. Such a pain in the ass.
| notpushkin wrote:
| Any idea how one can get hands on consumer-profile eUICC cards
| (or chips)? I've wanted to play around with eSIM (and perhaps use
| it for travel purposes), but don't want to upgrade my phone just
| yet.
|
| Found this one, but it's for testing only:
| https://www.smartjac.biz/esim-subscription-management/consum...
| flotzam wrote:
| https://esim.me is selling an eUICC-on-a-physical-SIM card. The
| only part that sucks is that you have to provision eSIM
| profiles through their proprietary Android app. Someone please
| reverse engineer it?
| notpushkin wrote:
| After some research I've found this thread on XDA:
| https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/a-tricky-way-to-use-
| esim-...
|
| Seems like it should be possible to solder an eUICC chip to a
| SIM-card form factor board and use it with OpenEUICC. [1]
| Somebody is even selling those pre-soldered on Taobao:
| https://shop104192953.world.taobao.com/
|
| Later in that thread, somebody also reported that OpenEUICC
| works with eSIM.me's cards, too. If you have one of these,
| can you give it a try perhaps?
|
| [1]: https://gitea.angry.im/PeterCxy/OpenEUICC,
| https://github.com/AndroPlus-org/magisk-module-openeuicc
| flotzam wrote:
| Nice, thanks for the links! (I don't own one, sorry)
| costco wrote:
| Anyone know what the cost of starting a thin e-sim only "MVNO"
| would be? I've seen offerings like https://gigs.com but I
| assume due to NDAs there's no public pricing. Wondering what it
| would take to to offer something along the lines of Airalo or
| like the "me.ONE" plan offered on esim.me.
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