[HN Gopher] The Pentagon's UFO Shop, the Hitchhiker Effect, and ...
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The Pentagon's UFO Shop, the Hitchhiker Effect, and Models of
Contagion [pdf]
Author : keepamovin
Score : 44 points
Date : 2023-08-20 13:11 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theblackvault.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theblackvault.com)
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| This is just folie en famille[1] / folie a plusieurs, right?
|
| The Skinwalker visitor fits the criteria as the folie imposee and
| the main contributors of stress and isolation are easily inferred
| - the site is remote, and visitors are aware of its history which
| frames their time there as particularly stress-inducing.
|
| 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux
| throwaway743 wrote:
| Maybe, maybe not.
| SimbaOnSteroids wrote:
| My favorite type of mass hallucination is the type that gets
| painted by radar.
| jjoonathan wrote:
| A third of all radar jammers operate on the principle of
| generating fake returns that "fly away" (often in
| unphysical ways because that was good enough).
|
| It's funny how this 101-level fact that every radar
| technician, operator, and designer is keenly aware of
| somehow never seems to make it into the UFOlogist
| monologues about how infallible radar evidence is.
| simonh wrote:
| Except that many of them are purely optical phenomena that
| don't show up on radar at all. Which of course is even more
| mysterious and meaningful!
| misnome wrote:
| The rename from "UFO Program" to "UFO Shop" unfortunately makes
| it sound like the Pentagon has a souvenir shop that sells little
| UFOs.
|
| I'm disappointed.
| mcpackieh wrote:
| I was thinking UFO shop is where they manufacture UFOs. Or more
| likely, where they manufacture UFO hoaxes.
| demondemidi wrote:
| I'd like to visit this place, but there are no cheap flights to
| the obverse side of the flat earth from where I live, and United
| won't fly over the edge of the world's ice barrier. Damn.
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| Skinwalker Ranch is one of the most famous sites in contemporary
| parascience, and Bigelow has been involved in it since long
| before AATIP (roughly since 1995; Harry Reid may have been on
| board with the project that entire time although it's difficult
| to say for sure). Colm Kelleher has also been involved in
| Skinwalker Ranch since the start. So I think it's important to
| understand that this is not a case of the DoD taking interest in
| Skinwalker Ranch, but a case of Bigelow directing their interest
| there.
|
| Despite occasional claims by Bigelow, Kelleher, and others,
| paranormal phenomenon are not clearly documented at Skinwalker
| Ranch prior to the ownership of the Shermans in 1994, immediately
| before they sold the property to Bigelow. The exact details of
| this transaction, how Bigelow became aware of the property, etc.,
| are opaque, but it presents a substantial possibility that the
| paranormal history was fabricated by the Shermans to motivate the
| sale.
|
| Bigelow and his various organizations (NIDSci, a more genera
| parascience and paranormal organization, and later BAAS, his
| aerospace company) have owned the ranch and been conducting
| research there for 27 years, and yet they have failed to produce
| any reasonable documentary evidence of the phenomenon. What they
| have produced is innumerable stories like this one, full of
| intrigue but absent of evidence. Some might see it as too
| dismissive to suggest that there isn't something paranormal at
| Skinwalker Ranch, but at this point people even in the UFO
| community are inclined to agree that Bigelow has made a huge
| effort and doesn't have anything to show for it.
|
| Bigelow's decision to completely close the property to entry by
| other researchers, and hiring a small security force to keep
| people out, has been taken as a bit of an affront. This coincided
| with his signing a number of media deals including a "Curse of
| Oak Island"-esque History Channel series, creating the appearance
| that Bigelow is more interested in finding funding and press than
| finding the truth.
|
| I have previously expressed my belief that Bigelow's involvement
| in DoD UAP programs, facilitated by Sen. Reid, was primarily an
| effort to obtain government funding to continue his Skinwalker
| Ranch pursuits. This article seems to support that perspective.
| bparsons wrote:
| Weirdly, Bigalow is also Ron DeSantis's biggest financial
| backer.
|
| For some odd reason, the Pentagon and certain corners of the
| Republican party really want you to believe in UFOs.
| pengaru wrote:
| Religion, faith, UFOs, paranormal b.s., these are all
| variants of willfully believing fiction as reality.
|
| I don't think it takes much imagination to see how a public
| indoctrinated with the above are beneficial to those seeking
| power and influence through lies and deceit.
|
| Critical thinkers are a con-man's kryptonite.
| throwanem wrote:
| It also doesn't take much to see how a strain of smugly
| hostile and contemptuous skepticism plays the same game
| from the other side. The "New Atheists", so called, have a
| good deal to answer for in this.
| sph wrote:
| You can say atheist are smug, hostile, but in more
| serious circles one needs extraordinary proof if they
| have extraordinary claim.
|
| Now, one can believe whatever they want, this is a free
| world, but I don't want to hear anyone playing the victim
| either because someone doesn't give a rat's arse about
| UFOs, lizardmen or God.
|
| Right to belief comes to right to being criticised, and
| well, being laughed at. If that's too much to handle,
| just keep it to yourself.
| throwanem wrote:
| Yeah, and how's that kind of attitude been working out
| for you, over the last couple decades of trying to change
| the public conversation in America?
| sph wrote:
| 1. Not my problem, I am not in America.
|
| 2. I am not trying to change any bloody thing. I just
| don't believe in God. No need to turn this into a
| political debate. I'd rather discuss religion in that
| case.
|
| 3. I believe in free speech. No one is taking your rights
| away here, you're free to do whatever you want as am I.
|
| If the fact that I have another opinion than you, then my
| friend, what you're looking for is an echo chamber, not a
| discussion with strangers.
| throwanem wrote:
| A moment ago you seemed awfully anxious to defend a
| movement and a style of behavior, both of which I took
| care to specify by name and close description
| respectively. Now you disclaim both? I don't know who
| you're arguing with, but apparently it is not me.
| DropInIn wrote:
| Defaulting to "prove it" is not anything anyone needs to
| "answer for"....
|
| Otherwise you're demanding that we accept every
| ridiculous idea that comes up... literally demanding
| people take suggestions of "Jewish space lasers causing
| fires in BC" and "the earth isnt real its just a TV show
| stage for aliens and the catholic church are thier
| partners" as legitimate possibilities rather than the
| highlt improbable, if not impossible, insanity they
| are....
| throwanem wrote:
| I don't believe I have asked anyone to answer for wanting
| claims to be backed by evidence.
| canadianfella wrote:
| [dead]
| Yoric wrote:
| How so? (asking as someone who has been involved in
| rationalism-related activities)
| throwanem wrote:
| Being an asshole to people about things that matter
| deeply to them isn't convincing. Neither is the obvious
| public self-gratification such behavior constitutes. And
| too, it hardly helps advance one's cause to comport
| oneself in such a way that people who otherwise agree
| with you find themselves risking embarrassment by the
| association.
|
| That's not a problem rationalism in the contemporary
| meaning really has, although I'm not sure this
| constitutes an improvement on net over its predecessor
| movement given how much the gloss of scientism tends to
| make its flights of fancy look more worth taking
| seriously than they deserve.
| sph wrote:
| Sorry, that's not good enough. Atheists aren't burning
| down churches. Atheists aren't throwing eggs at
| Christians. Atheists aren't bullying young indoctrinated
| children, nor are Christians, members of the largest
| religious group in the world, being persecuted by the big
| atheist conspiracy.
|
| So any cry that we _should be nicer_ to you and not roll
| our eyes when we get into this topic is literally what
| someone calls "being a snowflake."
|
| I know it is hard to understand in this age of
| politically correct culture wars, but it is possible to
| have an harmonious society with disagreement of opinion.
| But if someone starts to cry "help, help, I'm being
| repressed!" because someone makes fun of your
| supernatural being, that goes out the window.
| throwanem wrote:
| After growing up gay in rural Mississippi, there is
| really nothing you can tell me about being oppressed by
| Christians. I would just prefer your movement's tactics
| to have been _slightly_ less incompetent back when there
| might actually have been some chance of accomplishing
| anything. That 's been a long time ago now, of course.
|
| I said the same then, to much the same level of vitriol
| in response. At this point I really believe that it's
| more about behaving this way for the sake of it than
| about trying to accomplish any kind of real change.
| canadianfella wrote:
| [dead]
| jerrysievert wrote:
| > Bigelow's decision to completely close the property to entry
| by other researchers, and hiring a small security force to keep
| people out, has been taken as a bit of an affront. This
| coincided with his signing a number of media deals including a
| "Curse of Oak Island"-esque History Channel series, creating
| the appearance that Bigelow is more interested in finding
| funding and press than finding the truth.
|
| as noted in the linked article, Bigelow sold the ranch to
| Brandon Fugal, who has continued research with a private team,
| closed off access, and now has two television shows about the
| ranch and other phenomena.
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| I think it's totally reasonable to just blame this on Fugal,
| but Bigelow and Fugal are also not totally independent
| actors. At the time some felt that it was an arrangement to
| Bigelow's benefit, and Bigelow's ongoing involvement at the
| site seems to make that idea at least reasonable. But you
| could take the perspective that the monetization was an
| independent strategy of Fugal. Certainly they've taken
| different angles, and sideshows like TTSA show that the
| federal contractor approach is probably a better one than
| mass media. For my own part, I think that things have gone
| largely according to Bigelow's plan.
| Hikikomori wrote:
| Some of the persons sitting directly behind David Grusch in the
| public hearing are connected/part of skinwalker ranch.
| godelski wrote:
| > I have previously expressed my belief that Bigelow's
| involvement in DoD UAP programs, facilitated by Sen. Reid, was
| primarily an effort to obtain government funding
|
| I also think something a lot of people do not understand is
| that the military routinely runs false flag operations. This is
| one reason I've been so highly skeptical of the recent
| congressional hearings. As far as I'm aware, every encounter is
| at best testified via second hand. Has anyone that has
| testified claimed to see "biologicals" themselves, or just that
| they heard or read about it? In the latter, we can't trust in
| that setting (though it would warrant more investigation).
|
| They run these operations for several reasons. One is simply
| stupidity. Someone in the military might just believe remote
| viewing is possible and give funding. Another is to generate
| noise. When spies steal data, how do they know if those data
| and reports are genuine? It wouldn't be the first time a
| military got an adversary to waste countless time and money on
| futile pursuits. Another is simply to create a black op. You
| can't pour money into nothing, so you pour it into something
| else. These again usually use noise because when someone comes
| looking for that money you want to take them on a wild goose
| chase. The US Military has had access to the Alien story for
| 75+ years now and lots of people have built "evidence" around
| that story and many __want__ to believe in that story. I mean
| it is the conspiracy theory person's wet dream, that what
| appears complicated is actually very simple because omnipotent
| and omniscient wizards "the government" did it and the world is
| simple again and all is right. Spooks also love this kind of
| simplification, as we all do. Our monkey brains are satisfied
| when we have no more to dig into and "just know" (it's also why
| we confidently talk out our asses on places like this site
| about things we have no remote qualification to discuss). But
| it doesn't require stupidity to create all this noise, nor does
| it require 4D chess. It just requires time, chaos, and many
| different actors with many different unknown agendas (which
| would still requisite digging into to learn more, not stopping
| at this explanation).
|
| So idk if the government is recklessly spending money or they
| understand that this is a useful false flag, or if they just
| don't care in even determining the difference anymore because
| either way it seems useful to the end goals.
| jcrawfordor wrote:
| First, while perhaps a minor quibble, I don't think it makes
| sense to call something a "false flag" operation when it's
| merely the result of poor decision making. Otherwise we'd
| have to call every contracting boondoggle the DoD has been
| involved in a "false flag," and the term loses all meaning.
| The distinction is important, because I find it very unlikely
| that the DoD's involvement in Bigelow's research was at all
| intentional.
|
| We can point to two things to support this idea: first, that
| the DoD shut down AATIP apparently just about as soon as the
| broader executive branch became aware of it. Second, the
| fairly clear evidence that AATIP was only ever funded because
| of Sen. Reid's dogged support---in other words, it never
| really was a DoD initiative, it was Sen. Reid's project (and
| Sen. Reid's friend) and the DoD was merely the channel for
| that funding.
|
| After the abrupt and awkward end of AATIP, having produced
| almost no useful results at all, the DoD replaced it with
| their own in-house program which has since operated in a far
| more normal way... without any field trips to Skinwalker
| Ranch.
|
| Many people, almost everyone I think, radically overestimate
| the significance of AATIP because they are not familiar with
| the general world of DoD contracting. AATIP was a tiny
| project in a massive budget, and one apparently included at
| the behest of a powerful senator, which is an extremely
| common way that all sorts of misventures get added to the
| DoD. There's little evidence that AATIP ever had serious
| support from any high level of military intelligence, and
| some evidence that military intelligence mostly ignored it.
| This kind of thing happens all the time, a simple result of
| the DoD's secondary function as one of the primary pork
| barrels for the US Senate. In short, calling AATIP a "false
| flag" attributes a lot more executive function to the DoD
| than appears to have happened here, and indeed than happens
| in the vast majority of small, eccentric DoD projects.
|
| AATIP would have come and gone almost completely unnoticed
| were it not for the massive press round it received, years
| later, as a self-serving promotional stunt for the private,
| for-profit TTSA. TTSA aggressively tried to link itself to
| AATIP for cachet, but even those links are questionable when
| inspected closely. That too passed without much impact on
| anything, but not before other events like the Chinese
| balloon program thrust UAPs solidly into the media spotlight.
| This creates an endlessly frustrating situation in which the
| media, the public, and even apparently some of congress are
| inclined to interpret current UAP events in the context of
| the AATIP, even though there is almost no connection between
| the two.
|
| AATIP is a result of an eccentric millionaire leveraging a
| very powerful senate connection to capture a bit of flab on
| the DoD budget for his own self-interest. This kind of thing
| happens over and over again, it just usually doesn't have the
| sex appeal of UFOs.
| YeBanKo wrote:
| I am skeptical, especially Mr Grusch seems like full of sh*t.
| But a pilot named David Fravor testified along him, described
| his first hand account under oath. The second pilot that that
| flew along side with him on that occasion corroborated his
| words as well in 60 min interview:
| https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/navy-ufo-
| sighting-60-minute...
|
| Having a very qualified pilot there at least worth attention.
| mcpackieh wrote:
| By his own account, David Fravor perpetrated a UFO hoax for
| lulz on a different occasion.
|
| Experienced pilot != Trustworthy.
|
| From the horse's mouth: (3:52)
| https://youtu.be/PRM8AMrqqsc?t=232
|
| Fravor: _I have a sick sense of humor at times, so like I
| said I had all these [qualifications] so we used to fly,
| they don 't do it right now because it's a little bit
| dangerous, but we used to fly night vision goggles low-
| altitude in Hornets, all right. So when you put on night-
| vision googles they amplify light, like a lot, so you can
| see a campfire like 50 miles away. So we used to do it, the
| good spots were down in Lake Isle Central California,
| there's a range, there's some bombing ranges, but people go
| camping up in the Superstition Mountains, which is kind of
| north and west of Imperial, by.. I forget what it is, the
| springs it's [unintelligible] it'll come to me in a
| minute... So we would go out at night flying on goggles and
| you'd see a campfire and you'd go 'Oh, UFO time', and then
| you'd get the airplane going about six hundred knots and
| then you'd pull the power back to idle so you can't hear it
| and you'd get zinging towards the fire. Well you turn the
| lights all down because we're in restricted area so we can
| do that, and there's lights on that you can only see if
| you're on night-vsion goggles so the other airplanes can
| see us but nobody else can se us. Then you go zinging at it
| and right when you get to the campfire you pull the
| airplane into the vertical, you stroke the afterburners,
| you let them light off, you count to three and pull them
| off and then you just go away. Instant UFO reporting. "I'm
| sitting out in the desert, it's all quite and all of a
| sudden there's a roar[?], there's lights in the sky, and
| they go away and it's gone!"_
|
| Rogan: _So you would do that just to fuck with campers?_
|
| Fravor: _Yes._
| YeBanKo wrote:
| I watched the interview in the entirety. It basically him
| explaining why 99.99% of all the sightings can't be
| trusted. He explains how some real but weird sighting can
| be explained with narrow expertise.
|
| He is not just experienced, he was one of the top fighter
| pilots at that time. One thing is to fuck with campers
| and ufo "enthusiasts", another is to go on record and
| testify before congress.
| mcpackieh wrote:
| He wasn't describing only what other pilots have done,
| but what _he_ has done. He flatly admits that he has a
| sick sense of humor which manifests as pranking people
| into believing they 've seen UFOs.
|
| The number of people ever convicted of perjury for lying
| to Congress is tiny, and in this case particularly it
| would be very easy for him to fall back on _' I believe I
| saw what I saw!'_ Saying it under oath to Congress
| confers zero credibility to me. It's no more meaningful
| than saying it to Joe Rogan.
| haswell wrote:
| What I don't agree with is the implication that a
| willingness to play pranks automatically equates to a
| willingness to lie to congress/the American people.
|
| As a thought experiment, imagine for a moment that these
| UAPs are real phenomena and of non-human origin.
|
| Given the pop culture behaviors about UFOs - specifically
| those of skepticism and rolling one's eyes at true
| believers - it's not hard to imagine that this would be
| considered funny, and ultimately harmless (even if ill
| advised).
|
| Now he's flying a mission and see presumably the real
| thing. "Shiiiit, nobody's going to believe me now after
| those pranks".
|
| Could he be fabricating all of this? Or at least
| intentionally sharing misleading information? Possibly.
| But it's also not hard to imagine a completely earnest
| version of this playing out.
|
| I just don't see the direct connection between the prior
| behavior and this public testimony.
| mcpackieh wrote:
| I'm one of the top forest rangers in America. I am a
| trained and experienced forest observer, so when I tell
| you that I've seen bigfoot, you know I have a lot of
| credibility.
|
| Now, I know what you're thinking, lots of people have
| hoaxed bigfoot sightings before. That is true, in fact I
| myself once rented a gorilla suit and pranced around in
| the woods pranking campers. With my suit on I turned off
| my flashlight and ran up to their campfire _OOKing and
| EEKing_ , then ran back off into the trees. Instant
| bigfoot sighting. I have a sick sense of humor like that.
| Anyway, I tell you this so that you know I understand
| most bigfoot sightings aren't real, but I'm telling you
| now that I _did_ see bigfoot for real! I swear it on my
| mum 's life. Why, I'll even swear it to a room fool of
| politicians.
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