[HN Gopher] Amsterdam to use "noise cameras" against too loud cars
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Amsterdam to use "noise cameras" against too loud cars
Author : cactusplant7374
Score : 428 points
Date : 2023-08-19 11:56 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (nltimes.nl)
(TXT) w3m dump (nltimes.nl)
| thinkingemote wrote:
| I'm looking forward to the day when they stop adding loudspeakers
| to electric vehicle to make them noisy. I recently heard an
| electric sports car with a loudspeaker playing a mock sports car
| "vroom" ... it was a bit sad.
| r0fl wrote:
| There are regulations that add sound to electric cars so blind
| people can hear them
| thinkingemote wrote:
| Yes I know why they are there like the red flags on front of
| the first automobiles and I wonder when they will disappear.
| They shouldn't go now, obviously!
|
| Additionally it's weird they pretend to be combustion
| engines. Why not play something unique?
|
| Will our future streets be filled with electric vehicles with
| the same shape pretending to carry bulky ICE engines in the
| front and making the sound of an extinct machine? What an odd
| future.
| [deleted]
| almostnormal wrote:
| Not going to work well in practice, as long as these are
| installed in known fixed locations. It will catch only those that
| are a bit noisy at all times.
|
| The worst offenders can switch the behavior of their exhaust, and
| they will pass the checks in whisper-mode, with less noise than
| most normal cars.
| j-a-a-p wrote:
| I think it is the opposite, it will be very effective. But how
| to prove it works will be difficult as the goal is not safety,
| something easy to measure, but annoyance.
| fnord77 wrote:
| wouldn't work in SF because SFPD has announced they're no longer
| pulling over people for "minor" violations, like not having
| license plates
| ryandrake wrote:
| This is why I kind of like the idea of so-called "Active Sound
| Design"[1]--where car makers are starting to play vroom-vroom
| noises over the internal speaker system to make their engines
| sound louder. Car enthusiasts criticize it as "fake engine noise"
| but it's actually brilliant: The only person who really cares
| that someone's car is loud and obnoxious is that car's driver, so
| let him blast himself with vroom-vroom and let everyone else
| enjoy a slightly quieter existence.
|
| 1: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15117726/faking-it-
| en...
| trgn wrote:
| Never looked at it like that. My gut reaction when hearing
| about this first was a huge eye roll, ugh these babies, but now
| after you said that, hmmm, if it makes the car on the outside
| quiet...
| blondie9x wrote:
| Finally. Loud cars are one of the biggest "silent" contributors
| to health risks and climate change. Loud vehicles are tightly
| coupled with excess speed and acceleration as well. People want
| to "show off" their rides. Sacrificing the health of those that
| surround them while they make as much noise as possible.
|
| Think about it. Windows open you suddenly get jolted out of bed
| when a car flies by that has been modified to produce more noise
| to boost someone's ego. Moreover the excess tire exhaust and
| vehicle exhaust from rapid acceleration causes respiratory
| issues.
|
| About climate change? Of course this causes more climate change.
| People are forced to close their windows and use conditioned air
| because of the noise outside. So many summer nights people can't
| open their windows near streets because of the noise modified
| vehicles cause.
|
| The same noise and pollution issues apply when you're driving
| next to them as well. You have to close your windows in case your
| kids are sleeping or you are trying to listen to something then
| one of these noise attention seekers comes by who thinks they are
| awesome and wants you to pay attention to them. Their car is
| loud, and he or she needs that attention.
|
| It's ridiculous. Its a waste of taxpayers money due to elevated
| health risks and its a waste of energy because people are forced
| to close their windows while driving or at home.
| marginalia_nu wrote:
| Nuisance drivers have become a real problem over here. Idiots
| driving around with no muffler at 4 AM blasting music so the
| windows nearly fall out of their sockets.
| seventytwo wrote:
| Need them at my location. It's so fucking rude.
| xnx wrote:
| Along with red light cameras, this is another form of automated
| enforcement I'm very much in favor of.
| Zigurd wrote:
| I would _like_ to be in favor of automated enforcement, but
| cops and enforcement-tech companies have been caught shortening
| yellow lights to increase revenue while literally killing more
| people in the process.
| throw0101a wrote:
| "Cities Aren't Loud: Cars Are Loud":
|
| * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTV-wwszGw8
| jodrellblank wrote:
| Last night I was listening to audio, went outside for a walk,
| quiet area, but when a car drove by I couldn't hear what was
| being said for maybe 6 seconds, from the headphones that were
| _pushed right into my ear holes_.
|
| What had been a comfortable speech listening volume is dwarfed
| by ordinary cars, not even modded boy racer cars speeding, just
| basic sedans doing the speed limit.
|
| That's rather anti-human.
| cscurmudgeon wrote:
| > That's rather anti-human.
|
| The car was probably driven by someone who needed to do a
| human thing. Drivers are not evil Captain Planet villains.
|
| The anti-human thing is NIBMYs driving everyone out of cities
| and preventing density.
| abdullahkhalids wrote:
| I listen to stuff on my headphones quite a lot when walking.
| In my previous city, I never had any hearing problems. I am
| now in a place where the larger your car (truck), the cooler
| you are. Its impossible to listen to anything because the
| cars are so loud. The old cities had smaller cars driving
| slower.
| [deleted]
| drukenemo wrote:
| I kind of like his ideas (I know the channel), but he's heavily
| biased against cars. He's the "everything could be done on a
| bike" type of guy.
|
| The reality is, cities are incredibly noisy due to cars, but
| also construction work, people shouting, loud music and much
| more.
| notatoad wrote:
| there's a new roundabout currently under construction about
| 200m from my house. i can hear the construction equipment
| working early in the morning and mid-afternoon when the road
| is quiet, but 90% of the time the construction noise is
| completely drowned out by the normal road noise, from the
| road on the far side of the roundabout. construction noise
| from a dozen pieces of heavy equipment working all day just
| isn't a significant source of noise compared to a moderately
| busy road. not to mention that in a few months the
| construction will be done, but the road will always be there.
|
| "people shouting" and "loud music" don't even factor.
| Moldoteck wrote:
| His channel is literally named NOT JUST bikes... He makes a
| lot of points about other aspects of safety, like speed
| bumps/other speed limiters, safe roundabouts, public
| transportation, etc...
|
| Cars are by far the biggest noise contributor in a city and
| tbh i'd like drivers to pay a tax based on max sound a car
| may make on max engine speed(and if they want to pay less
| tax, speed should be physically limited to max 100km/h or
| something similar based on gps. But that's just a fantasy
| [deleted]
| i80and wrote:
| I used to walk through midtown new york city every day.
|
| It's incredibly people-dense so there's definitely some
| baseline human noise, but I cannot emphasize enough how
| absolutely _dwarfed_ by cars and delivery trucks it is.
| Construction work, shouting, music, etc. are almost a non-
| factor in comparison.
| glial wrote:
| Yeah but mostly due to cars.
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _I kind of like his ideas (I know the channel), but he's
| heavily biased against cars. He's the "everything could be
| done on a bike" type of guy._
|
| It's kind of hard to over emphasize the the damage they've
| done, specifically as forms of personal transportation
| (versus more commercial transport).
|
| He does have a video called "The Best Country in the World
| for Drivers", in which he shows that by reducing the need for
| cars for most people, actually helps the optimize things for
| operating a car:
|
| * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k
|
| And until the ~1920s, societies managed to function pretty
| well without the streets being taken over by cars:
|
| * https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262516129/fighting-traffic/
|
| I don't see why they need to have total priority _with-in
| cities_ to the extant they currently do.
| drukenemo wrote:
| Thanks for those links. Will watch them
| robswc wrote:
| Don't forget the trash trucks setting down dumpsters. Not
| that I blame them, no other way really but gave me a heart
| attack every time.
| jodrellblank wrote:
| > " _He's the "everything could be done on a bike" type of
| guy._ "
|
| No? He drives cars, uses multiple car rental/car shares
| schemes, often says that it's not cars he dislikes it's urban
| design which leads to _car dependency_ - unsafe for anyone
| outside a car, no provision for anything other than driving,
| single family housing zoning leading to everything being too
| spread out to go anywhere without a car - and that he's not a
| 'cyclist' and would prefer taking a tram when possible.
|
| The channel is even called "not just bikes" to push back
| against your kind of mischaracterisation.
| Aaargh20318 wrote:
| > He's the "everything could be done on a bike" type of guy
|
| While not everything can be done on a bike, a lot of people
| use a car when there is no need to. I can't understand why
| because cycling is way more enjoyable and in most cases a
| much faster way to get around town than a car. Especially if
| you own an e-bike.
|
| I own a car but hardly feel the need to use it. I usually
| need to buy a full tank of gas once or twice a year.
| nickserv wrote:
| Construction and loud music are localized, but car noise is
| everywhere.
| torgian wrote:
| I think they're missing the point of noisy cars / motorcycles.
|
| Sure, there are the minority who have noisy vehicles.
|
| But the real culprit are the tires.
|
| Tell me, when you walk by a highway or a road, what do you hear?
| That sound that is vaguely like an ocean lapping against the
| shores, just louder and artificial and annoying right?
|
| You never really hear the engine, even at a short distance away.
|
| The tires make a LOT more noise than the engines and exhaust do!
| And it carries farther than an engine does.
|
| Tired need more regulation, and roads need to be built with
| quieter materials.
| kawsper wrote:
| And if we lowered the speed we would also lower the noise.
| filereaper wrote:
| I wish there were regulations around those blinding Xenon lights
| as well.
|
| They're blinding from both front and back :(
| t0mas88 wrote:
| There are regulations for those, at least in Europe a cleaning
| and automatic leveling system is mandatory. Which avoids
| scattered light and ensures they're pointed downwards.
|
| The most annoying lights around here are all on Tesla's or very
| old cars. Tesla because (at least on the model 3) they allow
| owners to change the leveling height in the settings and people
| raise it for more light. Plus a lack of quality control on the
| early model 3's seems to put their two headlights often at
| different angles with one being blinding.
|
| Old cars because they're kept to the regulations of the
| construction year not the new ones. So they don't have
| mandatory leveling and/or people have put aftermarket xenon
| lights on them.
| momirlan wrote:
| it's a world wide issue, and it seems to have started with the
| covid lockdowns (at least in Canada). would be interested to
| understand what is the motivation for these anti-social people,
| and is there anything other than police that could stop it.
| ctenb wrote:
| What makes you think it started with COVID?
| mistercheph wrote:
| There is no way western societies will ever regret enabling the
| technological and legal frameworks for automated crime
| enforcement
| 4b11b4 wrote:
| Please in the US.
| osclarto wrote:
| This is such a great initiative. I lived on a busy crossroad for
| a few years. I went from thinking motorbikes were pretty cool to
| having a passionate disdain for the sad little selfish men that
| ride insanely loud bikes around the city. the constant noise from
| motorbikes was so so bad. bikes in the countryside are probably
| just about ok but in the city it's just selfish and embarassing
| PopePompus wrote:
| God bless Amsterdam for doing this. I had to move because of the
| noise produced by cars and motorcycles in the city where I lived.
| The vehicles were intentionally made noisier with "aftermarket
| exhaust systems". The people who intentionally make cities
| noisier are the lowest possible scum. Their vehicles should be
| confiscated and sold at auction, with none of the proceeds
| returning to the former owner.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Very loud vehicles in our neighborhood make me have revenge
| fantasies of ack-ack guns mounted to the roof of my house. But
| I'm too peaceful a person to do anything about it. Extremely
| annoying though and if I ever buy another house I will make sure
| to do better research about the noise levels.
| debarshri wrote:
| I would like to mention Timo Gatsonides here. He was CEO and CTO
| at SensysGatso BV. They build popular speed cameras. When I was
| an employee there, he was building these noise cameras along with
| emission capture etc. I am not affiliated with them anymore, was
| they were implementing some really good strategies in
| netherlands. Not sure if this implementation is by them, there is
| lot more you can do when it comes to traffic enforcement.
|
| PS. Most of the Trajectcontrole in netherlands are implemented by
| them
| jacquesm wrote:
| Did you ever meet his grandfather?
| debarshri wrote:
| No, but SensysGatso's office is full of his memorabilias and
| his race cars.
| louwrentius wrote:
| We need them badly in Haarlem (close to Amsterdam) as well. You
| have to pause conversations because of the car and bike noise.
|
| I hate that noise pollution in general isn't a higher priority as
| it really impact people's lives.
|
| But the biggest issue is motor bikes, not the cars. It's as if
| bikers are truly anti-social scum, and I'm saying this as a
| former biker.
| nologic01 wrote:
| Amsterdam is definitely at the forefront of inventing a liveable
| city. It is already more walkeable / bikeable that the vast
| majority of cities but it does not rest on its laurels.
|
| But have people thought about the implications of planting
| always-on microphones all around the city (connected to the
| always-on cameras)?
| t0mas88 wrote:
| Amsterdam is one of the least livable cities of the
| Netherlands. Everywhere else is just as easy if not better to
| bike and walk, but not nearly as traffic-jammed or as full of
| tourists.
| nologic01 wrote:
| Despite all efforts tourists are confined to the inner city.
| Traffic jams are mild compared to typical large city patterns
| and they affect you only if you use a car - which you dont
| really need in the city.
|
| The liveability comparison that makes sense is with cities
| offering similar economic and cultural opportunities.
| Compared to major world cities Amsterdam is already somewhat
| of a backwater but outside it it gets positively boucolic.
|
| The efficient frontier is when you optimally combine
| liveability with vibrancy.
| kunley wrote:
| What about too loud and too annoying drug dealers?
| nimbius wrote:
| I know this isnt a popular take but as a diesel engine mechanic,
| i think Amsterdam is going to be surprised at just how many
| "clean idle" diesel and modern trucks they are going to catch
| simply due to the nature of the regulation.
|
| the regulatory ban on dirty trucks is a good thing, but most
| manufacturers implemented their fixes in the most ham-fisted and
| half-hearted way they could think of at the expense of noise
| emissions. take Vortec for example, a technology that creates a
| little mini "tornado" or air in the intake box to boost
| performance and improve emissions. at the hood or 'bonnet' of the
| truck during accelleration this thing can peak around 100db.
| Volvo tries to solve this with foam insulation for the intake
| area but that never lasts more than a few hundred thousand miles.
| Ive seen vortec trucks set off car alarms.
|
| then theres the desperate attempt to keep unmaintained trucks on
| roads. If trucks dont get service regularly for urea tanks and
| other emission control devices, theyre supposed to go into 'limp'
| mode. 30kph, no faster, until service is made. well truck
| companies got around this by instituting 'regenerative' mode. if
| you walk past a very loud truck (and i mean freight train loud)
| idling in the street during a delivery, chances are good its past
| its service interval and has entered regen mode. idle engine
| speed is ramped up from 750 RPM to nearly 3500 in an attempt to
| generate temperatures hot enough to combust waste gasses instead
| of clean them on exit (frankly it doesnt really work.) its hard
| on the entire engine and environmental system but hey, truck
| still gets to do its job for the week.
| [deleted]
| dontlaugh wrote:
| The regeneration mode is to burn off accumulated particulates
| in a diesel particulate filter. This is why diesel cars
| typically need to be driven at motorway speeds regularly or
| have their DPF manually cleaned.
|
| Urea is used to reduce NOx emissions, not particulates. It's
| unrelated.
| swores wrote:
| I don't see anything in your comment that suggests a problem
| with their plan if the goal is to prevent vehicles from being
| too loud.... sure there may be some vehicles that are too loud
| because of good intentions on the emissions side, but that
| doesn't change the fact that they're too loud?
| zdragnar wrote:
| > i think Amsterdam is going to be surprised at just how many
| "clean idle" diesel and modern trucks they are going to catch
| simply due to the nature of the regulation
|
| To me, this didn't read as a problem with the plan so much as
| an observation that they're going to be catching a broader
| profile of problem vehicles than they anticipated.
|
| All in all, probably a good thing, but (as a foreigner who
| hasn't been there) it was, for me, an interesting
| observation.
| johnwalkr wrote:
| It took me a few reads to come to the conclusion that this
| was the meaning instead of opposing the law. It feels like
| in needs an extra sentence along the lines of "this law
| will also help prevent work-arounds of existing emissions
| regulations."
| swores wrote:
| If that was the intention then I indeed would have just
| agreed and not replied
| tzs wrote:
| OT: It's not actually a "noise camera". It's a speed camera with
| some directional microphones that triggers if there is too much
| noise, probably with some filtering to try to avoid triggering on
| noise that isn't loud car noise.
|
| There are actually acoustic cameras that are much more like a
| "camera" in that you get a 2D map of the sound reaching the
| device. This can be overlaid on an image from a light camera and
| you get an image where you can see where all the sounds are
| coming from.
|
| Some of them can make acoustic movies, where each frame is a
| light camera image overlaid with the sound map, usually coloring
| the optical image based on the sound with color indicating
| frequency and brightness indicating loudness.
|
| With these you can do neat things like make a sharp sound and see
| the echo bounce around a room, or look at something making a
| variety of sounds and see which sounds are coming from where.
|
| They often include software that is kind of an audio image
| version of Photoshop. You can use that software's equivalent of
| the eye dropper tool to point anywhere in the image and here the
| sound coming from that point. E.g., if you had an acoustic movie
| of the strings of piano and the pianist was playing a 10 note
| chord you could pick an individual string and play back the sound
| of just that string.
|
| Here's a video where science YouTuber Steve Mould was loaned some
| to play around with, showing some of the cool things you can do
| with them [1].
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtMTvsi-4Hw
| [deleted]
| justin66 wrote:
| In other words, it's exactly what someone reading the phrase
| "noise camera against too loud cars" would imagine it is.
| johnwalkr wrote:
| It's a minor nit-pick either way but a speed camera doesn't
| make an image of the speed nor usually use images to calculate
| speed. It usually measures the speed using radar, laser or wire
| loops and then captures an image. So I think the term "noise
| camera" makes sense in this context.
| jehb wrote:
| I live on a busy road, not too far from the intersection with
| another road that has a quarry on it. The worst thing of living
| here are the dump trucks who come speeding around the corner and
| then use their unmuffled engine brakes to slow down to zero to
| make a turn onto the road with the quarry. Sure, we've got the
| kind of assholes who mod their trucks and motorcycles to be as
| loud as possible, too, but nothing can compete with the low
| frequency vibration of those engine brakes. When I'm in my
| basement, I can barely hear the road noise at all, but I can
| _feel_ the truck engine brakes.
| theanonymousone wrote:
| How is that camera supposed to recognise the exact vehicle that
| has created the loud noise?
| bob1029 wrote:
| Statistics. Your plate gets detected once, no big deal.
| Detected 100 times? You are in trouble now.
| jabradoodle wrote:
| From a quick search this seems to be wrong, it appears they
| can detect which car the sound came from.
| dangus wrote:
| Cities aren't loud. Cars are loud. Especially the ones that are
| modified or designed to be loud.
|
| Given the newest research regarding excessive noise's impact on
| human, I wish more countries put some kind of effort into
| reducing noise on roads like the Netherlands does (this isn't the
| only thing they do).
| csydas wrote:
| I'm not sure how common it is over Europe, but at least in
| Prague and in Amsterdam, there are very active campaigns
| regarding respectful noise levels in the major city areas,
| which most people seem to be pretty okay with.
|
| I still see huge groups drinking and smoking outside every
| night at the pubs near where I live, but I can't say I've ever
| needed to complain about their noise levels, so people
| definitely seem on board with it; I can't say I've ever
| seen/heard persons getting into a heated discussion over noise,
| but naturally this is just my limited point of view and reality
| may differ.
|
| Edit: also, just remembered that I even saw a more active
| approach to this when I lived in Saint Petersburg, Russia,
| where a few bars even had a "noise meter" outside the bar (just
| a simple dim but legible LED screen with the purported noise
| level and a sign explaining that if the number is > N, you're
| being too loud). It seemed to work pretty well.
| ysavir wrote:
| People are loud. If you live in a city where people walk
| around, you'll hear every conversation from your street-facing
| windows. Cars are more obnoxious for sure, but they're hardly
| the exclusive problem contributing to noise.
| momirlan wrote:
| stayed for a week in Barcelona. there was this little park in
| front of the hotel where some chirpy homeless people spent
| the whole night talking. not overly annoying as it was a
| constant noise.
| soderfoo wrote:
| Stockholm is creepily quiet sometimes. I say this as a New
| Yorker who needs some kind of background ruckus to sleep.
| andsoitis wrote:
| Delivery trucks are even louder than cars. The difference is
| acute in a place like Manhattan.
| masklinn wrote:
| There is not a constant stream of delivery trucks under most
| people's windows.
|
| Furthermore it's likely easier to bring the hammer on
| delivery trucks if and when they become the primary issue, as
| those tend to have registration and responsible companies.
| rascul wrote:
| In my experience, delivery trucks with very loud aftermarket
| exhaust aren't drag racing in residential areas at 2AM like
| cars do. I moved out of the city a few years ago though so
| maybe they do now.
| 317070 wrote:
| I was reading your message, why an airplane was flying
| overhead.
|
| There is more than just cars that make noise, but at least we
| have all the tools and technology to make cars in cities almost
| completely quiet.
| moooo99 wrote:
| > There is more than just cars that make noise,
|
| There is, but there is a vast difference in how much noise
| and when they make noise. I live next to a tram line with a
| 10-minute schedule. 12 trams/hour are substantially less
| annoying noisewise than the constant influx of cars the whole
| day.
| ben_w wrote:
| Indeed.
|
| The airport this plane was approaching was converted into an
| asylum processing centre for Ukrainians, the replacement is
| just outside the city limits: https://youtu.be/OIu-dDKCBoI
|
| It was, naturally, much louder IRL than it seems in this
| clip.
| Steltek wrote:
| > make cars in cities almost completely quiet.
|
| Yes, by getting rid of them. A well designed city doesn't
| need private automobiles.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Do you have an existing city in mind as a model?
| booleandilemma wrote:
| I've lived in nyc for close to 20 years and never needed
| own a car. Between the subway, buses, and taxis (and
| uber, etc. nowadays) there is no reason to own a car
| unless you're using it to drive others around.
| dangus wrote:
| https://youtu.be/R2oD1ZHNMFE
|
| https://youtu.be/ZQkz-mDmURs
|
| Massive car reductions:
|
| https://youtu.be/ZORzsubQA_M
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/15/forward-
| thinki...
| Moldoteck wrote:
| It does need them, just not on every corner and just as
| last resort after foot, public transport, bikes and
| rentals, but car's shouldn't be banned, just regulated
| aa1234556 wrote:
| [dead]
| not-my-account wrote:
| I am in Amsterdam right now. Two things you notice quick when you
| are where Dutch people actually live (i.e. outside of Centraal):
| first, that it is remarkably quiet, and second, that cars are
| remarkably loud.
|
| The loudest vehicles are the mopeds, though. It's almost like
| they don't have mufflers. I wonder if they are regulated
| differently?
| itointegral wrote:
| I live in Amsterdam and beg to differ. You are probably only
| referring to Jordaan, indeed it's pretty quiet for a simple
| reason: most streets aren't accessible by car (or if they are,
| they are a huge pain to drive around on). Have you been to de
| Pijp? Or the Oud Zuid? They're much more accessible by car and
| they're also incredibly noisy. I have lived in all 3 and can
| tell you that the difference is noticeable to say the least.
| dwightgunning wrote:
| Gemeente Amsterdam publish a handy noise map (along with some
| other great public data). Check it out:
| https://maps.amsterdam.nl/geluid/
| masklinn wrote:
| NJB has a video on the subject which is pretty astounding if
| you've never really considered it: https://youtu.be/CTV-wwszGw8
|
| It also specifically calls out mopeds: https://youtu.be/CTV-
| wwszGw8?t=680
| presentation wrote:
| When I lived in Shanghai most people were using electric mopeds
| and it was great. Much quieter.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| It even makes a lot more sense than electric cars, since they
| can get away with small swappable batteries.
| wffurr wrote:
| The gas mopeds (and lawn equipment) can't get crushed into
| cubes and replaced with electrics fast enough.
| jimmySixDOF wrote:
| And also in Holland they barred right from the start using a
| mobile phone in restaurants which I love. I remember walking
| around the cobblestones one evening wearing dress shoes with a
| solid wood heal and got a lot of dirty looks for the clops. Not
| surprised at all this innovation is Dutch.
| ChatGTP wrote:
| I did a brief stint in Hoogte Kadijk one summer a few years
| back , seriously I actually developed severe depression which I
| think was from lack of sleep due to the unusual heat , the
| mopeds going past and the Airbnb guests checking into our old
| building at all hours making so much noise.
|
| I couldn't wait to leave, which was sad because the winter and
| autumn was absolutely bliss. We had a great life there.
|
| The mopeds were astoundingly loud though, I'll never forget it,
| I had PTSD, I could hear them coming from a ways off and it
| would make my blood boil before they went past and fuel my
| insomnia.
|
| What is funny is the mopeds are still plaguing me in a
| different part of the world now :) they should be banned
| altogether, they suck.
| wernerb wrote:
| Completely agree, ban them altogether and mandate electric
| mopeds instead. Even better, tax them and subsidize the
| models.
| paulette449 wrote:
| First line of the article: "Amsterdam has started the fight
| against noisy motorcycles and cars."
| prmoustache wrote:
| My maxi scooter has its OEM mufflers and it isn't too noisy.
|
| Problem is many people mount noisy aftermarket ones. They mount
| back the original one when they have the scheduled inspection.
|
| Having said that, outside of the amount of decibels there are
| engines that are more annoying. 2-strokes high pitch screamers
| and single and bi-cylinder with lots of low frequency / bass
| noise.
|
| And there are models that are probably made to pass
| homologation but do higher noise outside of the rev range used
| during homologation/inspection. The Yamaha T-Max is one
| example. It should be prohibited and all its drivers
| euthanasied. I am obviously joking for the second part but I
| have never encountered a decent human being riding one, they
| only attracts the worse of humanity. Yamaha should be ashamed
| of that.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| The Dutch word "Bromfiets" literally means "Buzzing Bike" where
| "Brom" is an onomatopoeia for BRRRRRRRRRROOOOOMMMM!!!!!!
|
| https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromfiets
|
| The equivalent English translation would be "Pthththththbike".
| squarefoot wrote:
| When i was a kid, removing or significantly altering the
| muffler was the #1 mod to obtain more speed, and then of course
| there was the psychological effect of making noise to let
| everyone know you were around, which to me isn't that different
| to beasts growling loud to mark a wider territory. I guess that
| is normal for kids, not so much for grown ups.
| pmontra wrote:
| Yes, 50cc scooters were subjectively as loud as 500cc grand
| prix bikes and made only 40 km/h. I hated them even when I
| was 14, the age when I could start driving one.
| [deleted]
| wrs wrote:
| This is very timely as some jerk has just got himself a very loud
| motorcycle and decided it would be fun to ride it through our
| neighborhood day and night. I mean night, like after 11pm. And
| this is Seattle, where we leave our windows open at night because
| nobody has air conditioning. He is single-handedly interrupting
| the sleep of at least a _thousand people_ every night.
|
| Because this thoughtless dweeb actually seems to stick to a
| schedule, I've managed to capture his license plate, but I am
| considering building and deploying a personal "noise camera" to
| deliver a mountain of evidence to the police and see if they'll
| take action. From this thread it sounds like that might be a
| popular open hardware project!
| franga2000 wrote:
| I've been trying to find out how much these cost so I could do
| the math and pitch it to my city council (they only care about
| money these days), but not a single manufacturer has pricing and
| none of the 4 that I emailed have replied in a month.
|
| I live right next to a very high-traffic road, but I got used to
| the noise. What I can never get used to is the dozens of idiots
| on motorcycles and modded cars with removed mufflers that drive
| by in the dead of night at twice the speed limit.
| JorgeGT wrote:
| Research-grade acoustic cameras from the leading providers cost
| anywhere from 50k-150kEUR. But they have much more than the
| "four microphones" the article cites, so I don't know which
| kind of solution they are implementing.
| rdschouw wrote:
| Here in the US Mid West suburbia it is a problem as well. Same
| applies to insane subwoofers. What's up with that?
|
| I always say to my wife that I can't wait until all cars and
| bikes are electric. In a decade or so this problem will go away
| by itself.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| I wish they'd bring this to near me. I'm especially interested
| because I'm a motorcyclist. Seems 90% of riders get angry when an
| exhaust isn't loud as a jet and it's often one of the first mods
| people make.
|
| I couldn't care less and prefer not to annoy everyone in a 100
| yard radius from me.
|
| Unlike what most riders will say loud pipes don't really save
| lives, good and safe riding does. They just use this excuse for
| the mistakes they make most of the time.
| candiodari wrote:
| The reason exhausts are loud is that there is detonation
| happening inside the exhaust. This happens when you increase
| the fuel-air mixture above what the cylinders will support for
| combustion and often gives slightly (maybe 10%) better
| performance of the car, for the cost of much lower lifetime of
| many components (not just the cylinders), and of course making
| enough noise to wake the dead.
|
| There's plenty of motorcyclists who do the same though.
| chaosite wrote:
| Some people optimize for the noise, and not performance, for
| the same reason people stick racing decals and put a spoiler
| on a car that doesn't really need it.
|
| Heck, some people will literally drill a hole in the exhaust
| to get that noise, for absolutely no performance benefit
| whatsoever.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Even though what you describe has, for some reason, become
| much more common lately, many exhausts are just loud for no
| good reason. Think Harleys or even the Yamaha TMax with the
| Akrapovic exhaust. They don't have the "pop-pop-pop" sound
| related to detonations, but are still absurdly loud.
|
| > There's plenty of motorcyclists who do the same though.
|
| What's funny is that in my neck of the woods, it's
| motorcycles with bad aftermarket pipes that had been making
| that noise for a long time. So now, whenever I hear a car
| making that noise, instead of associating it with some "big
| mean engine" as their owners probably hope, I associate it
| with some overworked 600cc.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| > Even though what you describe has, for some reason,
| become much more common lately, many exhausts are just loud
| for no good reason.
|
| Not only that, they deliberately put speakers on the
| electric Harley's so the morons driving them could feel
| like "real men".
|
| Honestly, if you want to make noise while looking
| ridiculous, just get a tuba and parade around the block!
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| What do you mean by speakers? As in for the radio? I've
| noticed that, too, but, fortunately, where I live they
| aren't that common yet.
|
| What _is_ common, though, is people on bicycles and kick
| scooters carrying a loud-ass speaker blasting random
| music. Reminds me of boomboxes in old American movies.
| Fortunately, that doesn 't carry as far as the exhaust,
| so it's not a problem while I'm in my apartment, only
| when walking down the street.
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| _> What do you mean by speakers? As in for the radio?_
|
| for the engine, so their electric motorcycle can still be
| loud and annoying -- evidently the whirring noise isn't
| "manly" enough for harley to sell
|
| https://www.rideapart.com/news/316258/harley-livewire-
| custom...
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| No, by speakers I mean the audio output devices they've
| installed that replicate the noise effects of a gas
| engine, on an otherwise whisper-quiet electric Harley.
| Pointless, expensive features to keep clowns happy with
| their "outlaw" motorcyclist image.
| tremon wrote:
| Maybe some friendly neighborhood hacker can find a way to
| change all those sound tracks to Nyan Cat?
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| Wow. I'd heard about some cars using the stereo to blast
| "fake" engine noise inside when they switched to smaller,
| quieter engines, but never for bikes.
| sixstringtheory wrote:
| They're staying true to their mission: make the most
| efficient machine to convert fuel into noise!
| crazyjncsu wrote:
| I don't know about that. I have an older sport quad ATV. Loud
| AF with custom exhaust the last owner installed. I have full
| control of the fuel delivery with the carb
| mixture/jetting/etc, and there is no nothing other than
| preventing backfiring/popping that has any effect on the
| noise. I even tried repacking the "muffler" with new
| stuffing--- didn't help.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| Most newer bikes barring maybe Harleys come stock with
| exhausts that aren't monstrously loud because of
| regulations (though some have ways around that).
|
| Problem is most peoples first course of action is to modify
| it to sound louder/"better". You'll often see this as the
| first complaint people have about bikes in motorcycle
| review videos.
|
| My current bike is a newer CBR650R, mand it sounds
| relatively tame. But some people complain about that.
|
| An older vehicle I may not fault as much, but you also have
| people revving to redline for no probable reason.
| ethanbond wrote:
| A lot of motorcyclists just like the noise and they pass it
| off as a safety device (because they're assholes).
| Gigachad wrote:
| "It's imperative to my safety that everyone wake up at 2AM
| to know I'm here"
| ethanbond wrote:
| Yeah the whole thing makes no sense. "I ride my
| motorcycle based on the assumption that people can hear
| me." -- no safe rider ever
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| In the US especially it seems to be the trend. I've ridden
| elsewhere where the problem seems to be less present (but
| not non-existent).
|
| They pass it off as safety to make up for their lack of
| skill. It's honestly appalling the low amount of
| skill/practice needed to get a bike here in the states.
| plagiarist wrote:
| While we're hoping, let's get something for the tilted up
| headlamps as well.
| LeonM wrote:
| In most countries there is a mandatory periodic technical
| examination for motor vehicles (like MOT, TUV, etc) where
| lights are tested for exactly this reason.
|
| Also, I don't think people tilt their headlamps up on
| purpose.
| sandermvanvliet wrote:
| Two of my friends rode motorcycles and did this on purpose
| because "it's more annoying so people see me coming" and
| I've never been able to convince them it's dangerous
| because you're basically blinding people...
|
| Edit: also in the Netherlands there is no periodic
| technical check required for motorcycles
| mjx0 wrote:
| What typically happens around me seems to be that someone
| installs aftermarket headlights -- often obnoxiously bright
| -- and then fail to actually adjust them correctly. And we
| (in this American state) don't have those types of safety
| inspections.
|
| Or they just drive around with their high beams on all the
| time. That happens, too.
| ryandrake wrote:
| I know a guy who does this. Was a passenger in his truck
| at night and pretty quickly noticed he was blinding
| everyone. "Dude, you have your high beams on!" "Yea,
| they're brighter so I can see better." "You're supposed
| to turn them to low when other cars are coming." He
| looked at me like I had antlers growing out of my head.
| It never occurred to him to give even a single shit about
| everyone else on the road. Total "Main Character"
| syndrome.
| [deleted]
| mcdonje wrote:
| I always thought it was an excuse. Like, 'Check out my cool
| bike. It's matte black because that looks cool. I got a pretty
| rad old-school matte black helmet to match. And of course a
| black riding jacket. Oh yeah, and I set the carburetor to sound
| like a cessna because cars don't see us!'
|
| I was looking at a house with my wife that was relatively close
| to a major road. I wasn't sure if it was going to be an issue
| or not. A loud bike drove by and we crossed that house off the
| list.
|
| If I had a bike, I'd model my look after a disco ball instead
| of the road tar.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| I mean I won't lie, I like how my bikes look. I like the
| style of wearing my gear and whatnot. It's what I grew up
| aspiring to do, I wanted to ride from the time I was like 12.
|
| I'm 31 now and have ridden all my adulthood and still like
| the style, but I don't intend to announce my presence via
| annoying sound to everyone within a football field radius.
|
| I actively try to be a friendly driver unlike some of the
| dumbasses I share this hobby with who make us all look bad.
| zvmaz wrote:
| > Seems 90% of riders get angry when an exhaust isn't loud as a
| jet and it's often one of the first mods people make.
|
| I am a motorcyclist, and I get angry when I hear a loud
| motorcycle. I want my next motorcycle to be as quiet as
| possible! And I want people to be fined when they produce such
| high levels of noise pollution.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| I 100% agree. My bike is pretty quiet.
|
| Modifying any vehicle just to make it louder seems really,
| really rude to me.
| ecf wrote:
| 100 yards is amateur hour when it comes to disrespectful
| motorcycle owners. Harleys where I live can be heard miles down
| the country roads.
| johnwalkr wrote:
| Articles like these always bring out suburbanites who point out
| that cities are loud and you need to deal with it if your are in
| the city. But most city noise is vehicles and it's quite amazing
| when you get a chance to realize this (for example when a
| normally busy street is made pedestrian-only for a weekend).
|
| And sometimes you don't realize how life-alteringly noisy a
| particular street is until you move there. I have 2 examples.
| Near Cambie street bridge in Vancouver can be extremely loud at
| night. Normal traffic noise during the day. But there's a traffic
| light followed by a bridge which is slightly uphill, which I
| guess is an invitation for people in loud cars to burn out when
| the light turns green in the middle of the night. In Tokyo I
| lived on a very-quiet looking side street, it was nearby a
| Domino's and parallel to another small street, just large enough
| to have a traffic light. So my short street had a loud scooter
| accelerating into and out of it every few minutes to bypass the
| traffic light. These sorts of things aren't noticeable when you
| just visit a city but are absolute hell if you end up living
| nearby. The first example at least would be a good candidate for
| a noise camera.
| r0fl wrote:
| This YouTube video describes people who drive loud cars perfectly
| https://youtu.be/hEG6knXQxNg
|
| It's such an obnoxious thing; almost as bad as people who yell on
| speakerphone when in small public spaces
| NoLinkToMe wrote:
| I honestly rarely experience cars that are unreasonably loud in
| Amsterdam, they're all roughly as loud, which bugs me but I'm
| used to it my whole life (and they got quieter over time).
|
| But scooters and motorcycles? They frequently stand out as being
| much louder than anything, it's jolting and creates an immediate
| annoyance that lasts until it's out of hearing range.
|
| I'm very optimistic as I expect these to be electrified
| relatively quickly. Not heavy motorcycles per se but they're
| pretty rare. Gasolike scooters were everywhere though but they're
| disappearing quick, in part due to helmet/roaduse rules in
| Amsterdam, in part due to electric scooters and bikes.
| rectang wrote:
| Could we use US state ballot initiatives to require the
| installation of informational noise cameras, similar to
| informational speed cameras that have become prevalent in recent
| years?
|
| I suspect any such votes would pass by overwhelming margins.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| We need these in SF
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Can we do leaf blowers too? Can we do people who start cutting
| their lawn with a Dixie Chopper at 7pm on a Sunday evening? These
| things annoy me a lot more than a momentary noisy car passing.
| momirlan wrote:
| yup, gas lawn mowers too. i have 2 neighbours who do it every
| other day, just to chop one millimeter off the top of the turf.
| ctenb wrote:
| Yes please
| raylad wrote:
| Noise cameras that take pictures and send tickets, like red light
| cameras, are what we need.
|
| And we need them for motorcycles too.
| Luc wrote:
| This summer I was bicycling for a while behind two (combustion
| engine) BMW touring motorbikes, and they were so quiet I think my
| clunker bicycle may have been the noisier of the three. I thought
| about thanking the riders, it really makes a big difference in
| the city.
| HPsquared wrote:
| That's great. They need to make "smell cameras" too to catch
| people who remove their catalytic converters and DPFs. In my
| experience a LOT of taxis seem to have their emissions systems
| disabled.
| j-a-a-p wrote:
| Perhaps a bit difficult to implement. Why not let these cars be
| checked with an exhaust test every year? That is common in NL
| and DE at least.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Evidently a lot of people cheat the system somehow.
| kouru225 wrote:
| Microphones. The word you're looking for is "microphones."
| l72 wrote:
| This sounds great and all, but.... I live in an urban residential
| neighborhood and have a major hospital at the end of our block.
| Our street is a pretty big cut through street.
|
| Yeah loud engines and music (and phone calls!) from cars is
| annoying, but that's not where most of the sound comes from.
|
| It is just tires on the asphalt that is so loud. I don't know if
| this is due to how heavy American cars have gotten or changing
| roads from concrete to asphalt, but it has become quite
| unbearable.
|
| The rise of e-bikes and personal mobility scooters has helped cut
| down on the noise somewhat, but I don't know what you do about
| regular car noise (other than banning cars).
|
| Also, whatever vehicle designer that decided the horn should honk
| whenever the car locks -- you are on the top of my list!
| ipqk wrote:
| > Also, whatever vehicle designer that decided the horn should
| honk whenever the car locks -- you are on the top of my list!
|
| This should be illegal. I sort of get it 30 years ago when
| aftermarket & OEM car alarms were a new thing, but that's it's
| still acceptable in 2023 is asinine.
|
| No artificial sound should be allowed when locking or unlocking
| a car. Maybe flashing the headlights at most.
| cactusplant7374 wrote:
| > Also, whatever vehicle designer that decided the horn should
| honk whenever the car locks -- you are on the top of my list!
|
| I recommend never visiting Ecuador. Car alarms (false alarms),
| lock, and unlock sounds are an all day thing.
|
| If you think America is bad you ain't seen nothing yet.
| pharmakom wrote:
| Can we make car horns louder for the occupant too? using a horn
| should be a rare thing, in order to make someone aware of your
| presence, not as a stress relief toy.
| geonnave wrote:
| Similar "noise radar systems are being tested in Paris [1] and
| New York [2].
|
| [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/15/noise-radar-
| in... [2] https://www.nyc.gov/site/dep/news/22-005/roadside-
| sound-mete...
| rascul wrote:
| In the US there are often noise ordinances and laws that largely
| go unenforced. Step 1 is enforcing existing laws.
| frankus wrote:
| Step 0 in the US might be enforcing laws against fake temporary
| tags or concealed license plates. If I had a dollar for every
| "thin blue line" sticker-sporting car with a barely-transparent
| bit of plastic over the license plate...
|
| Seems like the illegal covers would be straightforward to
| enforce any time these cars are parked on public streets.
| i80and wrote:
| Those plastic license plate concealers are wild. I couldn't
| believe it the first time I noticed one and I don't
| understand how they're legal.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Non-obscuring covers are typically sold to protect the
| plate from the elements, flying rocks, UV exposure, etc
| (may be handy for vanity plates).
|
| It also adds a bit of deterrence against tag theft,
| depending on how you secure it.
|
| A person walking by may not be able to tell the difference
| between one meant to protect the plate and one that hides
| the plate from cameras, which can cut both ways. I've heard
| from people who have non-blocking plates get tickets
| because they were assumed to be the camera-defeating
| variety, even though they were basic polycarbonate covers.
| bob-09 wrote:
| In some towns, there's an issue with ordinances and laws not
| being specific enough and a lack of training for measuring
| accurately. Someone could measure dBA and someone else could
| measure dBC, and the ordinance doesn't specify which
| measurement applies.
| kitten_mittens_ wrote:
| In places like Massachusetts, traffic cameras are illegal,
| which is unfortunate.
| rascul wrote:
| They are also illegal here in Mississippi. We don't need to
| start with cameras though, police are quite capable of
| ticketing loud vehicles. They just don't.
| kitten_mittens_ wrote:
| It's much more difficult to do traffic enforcement by sweat
| and blood in Boston where narrow roads are more common.
| Bots for traffic enforcement would free cops up to deal
| with less rote work too.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Would love for them to deal with the hordes of Dodge Rams too.
| How did a giant American truck get so popular here????
| bob1029 wrote:
| It is a _very_ comfortable vehicle to drive. The physical
| reality is that more inertia = smoother ride.
|
| I absolutely agree though. American trucks should stay 100% in
| America. They barely fit in Texas-sized streets and parking
| lots... I cannot comprehend what it must be like to own one
| outside the US.
| dontlaugh wrote:
| There are plenty of small cars with very comfortable
| suspension, though.
| baz00 wrote:
| Need them here in the UK. There are so many cars modified to have
| explosive sounding exhausts it's unreal. I get woken up regularly
| in the night when they drive them around at 2AM making a lot of
| noise. I still don't get why anyone would want to drive around
| sounding like that. There is no reason other than you want to
| look like a complete wanker and at that point society should
| crush your car to a fucking cube instantly.
|
| Edit: turns out we do have them and they have been fining people.
| But it's mostly supercars. The problem is with shitty little cars
| with stupid exhausts which outnumber the supercars by at least
| two orders of magnitude.
| tailspin2019 wrote:
| Same here where I am in the UK. It seems to be getting worse
| over time too.
| noodlesUK wrote:
| It's actually ridiculous the level of noise some people drive
| around making. People buy "pop and bang" ECU tunes that when
| combined with a aftermarket exhaust make their car sound like
| a howitzer. I live on a main road, and there are some cars
| driving around at night that I can hear half a mile away or
| more. The cops or council should seize the cars and the
| owners should have to pay to have the mods undone before they
| can get them returned.
|
| The other thing I don't understand is how in the UK these
| people are passing MOTs. Either they are colluding with a
| garage to get fake passes, or they are on fake plates, or
| they're undoing the mod every year when they need to go get
| an MOT.
| globular-toast wrote:
| Forget tunes, manufacturers are sending the things out of
| the factory with "pop and bang" settings. It needs to be
| outlawed. It's getting worse and worse. Presumably MOT
| doesn't cover it if they are getting set this way by
| default.
|
| Noise pollution in general is getting really bad and I
| think manufacturers need to be held accountable for this.
| My neighbour has recently installed some kind of "smart
| door bell". When the postie, or whoever, rings this, it
| makes a chime _on the outside of the house_. So the whole
| street knows when that doorbell is pressed. Why in the
| ever-loving fuck does it even have a speaker on the outside
| of the house?!
| baz00 wrote:
| I'd be at that with a hammer in 30 nanoseconds.
| baz00 wrote:
| Don't force them to fix them. Just crush them with zero
| warning. Word gets around quickly.
|
| I'm in favour of banning all modifications to vehicles as
| well. Seen several cars with turned in wheels and
| appendages which are clearly affecting traction and
| aerodynamics.
| gumballindie wrote:
| > turned in wheels and appendages
|
| Some of these mods also affect odometer readings.
| mistercheph wrote:
| I'm in favor of prosecuting the mechanics that make these
| modifications. Put an amount of toe-in that negatively
| affects traction onto a customer's 2005 Honda Civic?
| That's 15 years. Install a crackle tune on somebody's BMW
| M3? Life sentence
| lelanthran wrote:
| No point in going after mechanics. The supply of people
| who can do these mods probably outnumber the number of
| drivers who want these mods 10 to 1, or more.
|
| I can do most mods at home, and I know at least 5 other
| diyers who can, but I don't personally know anyone who
| wants these mods.
| whartung wrote:
| Not quite that severe, but that is certainly the case in
| California at least in regards to illegal exhaust systems
| on motorcycles.
|
| If you have a bike with an illegal exhaust, professional
| shops won't touch the bike because of potential fines and
| sanction.
| foooorsyth wrote:
| Don't need to be a mechanic to cut some pipes in your
| garage. Going after mechanics probably wouldn't do much.
| masfuerte wrote:
| Years ago a friend dropped his car off for three hours to
| get an MOT. When he received the certificate it had
| apparently been issued by a garage hundreds of miles away
| so it was plainly bogus. He reported it to the police. They
| did not give two fucks. I would be surprised if these
| modders have any trouble getting an MOT.
| _Wintermute wrote:
| They have more an issue if they ever try and claim
| something on their insurance. Insurance companies are
| definitely motivated to find reasons not to pay out, and
| undeclared modifications are a pretty easy way to void
| your insurance.
| oliwarner wrote:
| The high rate of catalytic converter theft might explain why
| _some_ people sound like they 're driving an aircraft carrier
| down your street.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Did something change with regard to the value of a catalytic
| converter in the last ten years? Has the recycling market
| become more open than it used to be?
| oliwarner wrote:
| Massive spikes in platinum, palladium, and rhodium prices
| and the availability reciprocating saws.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Aircraft carriers are nuclear though. That's a bit quieter
| than a modified civic
| masklinn wrote:
| Motorcycles too. Around here idiots revving and redlining their
| engine is a relatively regular occurrence. Much more so than
| cars, although that also happens from time to time.
| oefrha wrote:
| Some idiots on motorcycles blast music at 120dB in addition
| to engine noise. Back when I lived some thirty yards from a
| fairly busy street, I couldn't hear any car traffic, but
| these motorcycles announced their arrival from a mile away.
| Aurornis wrote:
| I'm tired of the "loud pipes save lives" nonsense.
|
| If something can't be safe for the operator without being a
| nuisance to thousands of people along their route, then it
| shouldn't be on the road.
|
| Bring on the fines for loud motorcycles. It's ridiculous that
| we let this problem proliferate.
| Gracana wrote:
| At moderate to high speeds you can't even hear bikes until
| they're beside or in front of you anyway. Loud pipes just
| fuel anti-motorcycle sentiment. As a motorcyclist it's
| frustrating to see people vote for rules and regulations
| that limit motorcycle modification, but I understand why
| they do it.
| 0xEF wrote:
| I live in a motorcycle-heavy US town (blue collar, lots of
| guys who wish they were 1%ers - the biker outlaw variety, not
| the rich people variety). It sounds like a warzone during
| shift change around the industrial districts.
|
| Having been neighbors with a lot of these guys, it has been
| repeatedly explained to me that theh make their bikes louder
| to be heard for safety. The assumption here is car drivers
| are so engaged with their music/podcasts/whatever turned up
| that they don't pay attention to the traffic around them.
| They also tend to not look when switching lanes or, gods
| forbid, use their turn signal to show intent.
|
| While this sounds like a reasonable argument, I think it's a
| load of bullpucky. Motorcycles are loud by default, and using
| aftermarket parts to make them louder is just part of the
| self-affirming statement of ego. These guys _need_ you to
| know how big and bad they believe themselves to be that they
| 'll make other sacrifices in their lives to afford projecting
| that image.
|
| It's really all very silly, to be honest.
| pdimitar wrote:
| "Silly" is really underselling it.
|
| One biker jumped to fight me once after I joked with him
| that he uses loud exhaust pipes to get a prostate massage
| while riding. People around him stopped him. I laughed my
| arse off. Apparently I hit a nerve.
|
| But yeah, that's how much respect I have for these people.
| Whatever reasons they invent the fact of the matter is that
| noise pollution is already too much and everyone should be
| working on reducing it. Everyone. No exceptions. Including
| mothers with rattling strollers; having one with rubber
| wheels is not gonna bankrupt her family, I am pretty sure.
| OscarTheGrinch wrote:
| Yeah, when are the cops finally gonna crack on noisy
| mothers, not to mention their screechy children?!?
|
| I'm trying to drive over here.
| eduction wrote:
| You're being an oaf about the strollers, the noise isn't
| anywhere near as loud as for motorcycles (bizarre to
| compare them) and if you had kids you'd know the
| inflatable tires only work on large jogger or double wide
| strollers (and about those you'd be complaining how much
| space the pay take up on the sidewalk, in the grocery
| store, in the subway etc and if someone needs to ride the
| bus or a taxi they are not even an option). Typical
| complaining from a self centered non parent.
| pdimitar wrote:
| No need for jumping to conclusions. I sympathize with
| parents' problems and I prefer the bigger strollers
| because they don't rattle. Whether they belong to public
| spaces is something people can't agree on but I'm not
| seeing riots over it.
|
| Me and others are inclined towards solutions that reduce
| noise.
| robodan wrote:
| There's a problem in that the danger is in front but the
| exhaust noise goes out the back. I was once driving cross
| crunchy in a big truck with a trailer when I was startled
| by a loud motorcycle coming up beside me. He had been in
| danger the entire time he was next to me but I never heard
| him until he got right next to the cab. They should really
| point the loud exhaust forward but who wants to live with
| that noise?
| maest wrote:
| > it has been repeatedly explained to me that theh make
| their bikes louder to be heard for safety
|
| I always found that argument to be a bit of a red herring.
|
| _Even if_ that was true and _even if_ the only way to
| safely ride a motorcycle was by disturbing every single
| person you pass by on the street, that still doesn't
| justify people riding loud bikes.
|
| At that point, you are making a deliberate, selfish choice
| that your enjoyment of riding a bike is more important than
| other people's comfort.
|
| It's like someone bringing smelly food on a plane and
| saying they're justified because it's the only way they can
| eat their favourite dish. We don't go "oh, they're right,
| the smell is necessary for them to enjoy their food." We go
| "just eat something else, you're being selfish".
| shlant wrote:
| > While this sounds like a reasonable argument, I think
| it's a load of bullpucky
|
| And you would be correct:
|
| https://www.motorbiscuit.com/new-study-confirms-loud-
| pipes-s...
| mistercheph wrote:
| [flagged]
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _Having been neighbors with a lot of these guys, it has
| been repeatedly explained to me that theh make their bikes
| louder to be heard for safety._
|
| Very popular line of thinking with people who own (e.g.)
| Harley-Davidsons... which are loud out of the box. Go over
| to (say) /r/motorcycles where there's a larger variety of
| ownership, and not many folks really buy it.
|
| The _High Side, Low Side_ motorcycle podcast had an episode
| on moto-myths where they went over this:
|
| * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1UlW-sfbBA&t=21m47
|
| The _MCRider_ moto-training channel covered it:
|
| * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F02_9V7OKjw
| mikestew wrote:
| _Very popular line of thinking with people who own (e.g.)
| Harley-Davidsons... which are loud out of the box._
|
| No they are not, at least not in the U. S. The EPA
| dictates a max dB sound output, and HDs must meet it,
| like everyone else. Stock HDs sound quite nice.
|
| Of course, you might not know this because no real
| American leaves a HD dealer with the stock exhaust
| installed.
| unyttigfjelltol wrote:
| The aftermarket for noise scofflaws should not exist. I
| lived near some kind of chopper club years ago and every
| Sunday around 10am you'd have these clowns revving loud
| enough to nearly make eardrums bleed. I theorize the
| reason they feel comfortable inflicting this on others is
| because they have the admiration and encouragement of the
| individuals on the police force who would do the same
| with their cruisers if the city would buy the parts. Pox
| on all of them in this narrow regard.
| KennyBlanken wrote:
| I was banned from /r/motorcycles for commenting on a
| handlebar camera video where a guy was racing down a
| winding, limited visibility road with his buddies and
| lost control trying to avoid hitting a cyclist who was
| crossing in a crosswalk, complete with blinking warning
| lights.
|
| Every comment was "fuck that cyclist, they rode out in
| front of you!"
|
| Apparently calculating from the video that they were
| doing 15+ mph over the speed limit, and proving from the
| video and math that the cyclist could not see him before
| they'd started into the crosswalk...was ban-worthy.
|
| The guy even blurred out his speedometer to hide that he
| was speeding.
|
| His comment/post history showed that the motorcycle,
| which was a very powerful model, was his first bike and
| he'd very recently bought it. He posted "new motorcycle
| day" pictures.
|
| The guy was a textbook squid: recently acquired first
| bike was too powerful for him, no brains/skills, riding
| dangerously, putting himself and others at risk.
|
| Pointed that out to the mods and was told I was being
| reported for "doxxing." For clicking on "posts" on his
| profile and seeing he'd recently posted a picture of the
| bike.
|
| Fuck that subreddit and its mods.
| dharmab wrote:
| If this was recent, much of the subreddit's mod team left
| a few months ago. The new management is far less active
| in moderation.
| mey wrote:
| This kinda nails an issue with reddit. You can find a
| hobby/community that you have overlapping interest in,
| but the culture/moderation of that community may not have
| any consistency with what you want. Which would be fine,
| but reddit doesn't provide room/discoverability for
| multiple subreddits of the same topic with different
| moderation styles/cultures.
| idonotknowwhy wrote:
| Loud bikes slightly disorient me when I'm driving my car.
| If anything, I'm more likely to have an accident when they
| drive up near me
| colanderman wrote:
| Not to mention, the noise from pipes emanates _backwards_ ,
| toward cars that have the motorcycle in their field of
| vision. Even the loudest bikes I don't really hear until
| they pass me.
| mikestew wrote:
| _While this sounds like a reasonable argument..._
|
| It's not, otherwise they'd get a discount on
| insurance...which they don't. And it's bullshit for a lot
| of reasons, including good ol' physics.
| kstrauser wrote:
| That's the first I've heard of the insurance argument,
| and I think you're right. If loud pipes saved lives,
| Progressive Flo would've mentioned their noise discounts.
|
| Actuaries can tell us the exact relation between volume
| and deaths per mile, I bet, and it must be nearly zero.
| sircastor wrote:
| While I am annoyed by loud motorcycles, I understand and
| totally agree with riders about being loud so cars are
| aware. Drivers are shockingly unaware of their
| surroundings. It's worse with drivers of larger trucks and
| SUVs. Drivers don't address their blind spots, they don't
| pay attention, they don't signal, they don't look. I've
| fortunately never seen a motorcyclist hit by a car, but
| I've seen a lot of close calls, and not one of them has
| been saved because the driver suddenly noticed the bike.
|
| I'm sure there are guys who want to be loud, just like the
| kids who put the noisy mufflers on their cars. For most
| bikers I don't think they see a better alternative.
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| >While this sounds like a reasonable argument, I think it's
| a load of bullpucky. Motorcycles are loud by default, and
| using aftermarket parts to make them louder is just part of
| the self-affirming statement of ego. These guys need you to
| know how big and bad they believe themselves to be that
| they'll make other sacrifices in their lives to afford
| projecting that image.
|
| It basically is. Most bike horns are going to be louder
| then stock or aftermarket exhausts, yet no one's gone
| around tapping the horn button down.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| Motorcycles aren't loud by default. My BMW k75 is basically
| quiet even when you rev it. Turns out mufflers work.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| Can't wait for all cars to have proximity sensors/cameras
| alerting us drivers to what's around us.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| As a motorcyclist, if I had a penny for every time I've
| heard the "loud pipes save lives" mantra, I'd be a
| millionaire.
|
| It always felt like "a load of bullpucky", but the defining
| moment for me was one day riding down a quietish-street
| with a legal-but-still-obnoxious Akrapovic pipe. In front
| of me were two or three girls walking in the middle of the
| road, talking. They only realized I was there when I
| sounded the horn and seemed really surprised, judging by
| their jumpiness.
|
| If someone _walking_ in front of the bike can 't hear that
| noise, I really don't see how someone inside a sound-
| insulated box, in a generally noisy environment, probably
| blasting the radio, is going to notice the loud pipe.
| time4tea wrote:
| Have you considered maybe you're in the wrong? The
| hierarchy of responsibility puts a motorbike above (more
| responsible) than a pedestrian. Three people is more than
| one, so you are really saying you inconvenienced three
| more vulnerable people just so you, a single person,
| could go down a road, at speed, without a care for
| others.
| j4yav wrote:
| That's why I wear a car alarm strapped to my head, always
| going off, when I walk down the street.
| Gracana wrote:
| That why I always drive on the sidewalk. It's the
| courteous thing to do.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I wasn't racing down the street, if that's what you're
| saying. And, at least in these parts, pedestrians aren't
| supposed to walk in the middle of the street if there are
| sidewalks available (outside certain designated areas, of
| which this street was not one).
|
| Many a street has been converted to such an area. But
| rules apply to everybody, and sometimes even an obnoxious
| biker can actually be in the right.
| greenbit wrote:
| At the low frequencies that tend to dominate and at that
| volume, it's relatively difficult to figure out where the
| source of the sound actually is, especially with
| buildings around that reflect sound every which way
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| It was a one-way street, so it was pretty clear where the
| traffic was coming from.
| sampo wrote:
| > It was a one-way street
|
| I don't think pedestrians are generally aware if a street
| is one-way or not.
| natch wrote:
| Deaf people exist. And there are going to be people in
| the middle of the road from time to time; it happens. And
| sometimes people make mistakes. I've even seen people not
| realize that a street was one way. And sound reflects and
| bounces, and vehicles are capable of moving at different
| speeds; they're even capable of moving the wrong way or
| on adjacent roads or on cross roads or on fields, making
| the determination of location not always straightforward.
| And any factors that did or did not apply in your story
| may apply in others. Just all the more reason for drivers
| to be careful.
| Someone wrote:
| I do not think that matters much.
|
| I don't think your brain learned about one way streets
| and started fully trusting drivers to follow the law,
| certainly not the low-level parts that govern the
| "there's something there you may need to pay attention
| to" mechanism.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| What do you mean?
|
| I usually am aware that I'm in the middle of the street
| when I'm not supposed to be there (think when there's
| something blocking the sidewalk or similar). In this
| case, I'll absolutely pay a lot of attention to my
| surroundings. Hell, even when I cross the street at a
| green light, I'll look before I step off the sidewalk.
|
| Because in my mental model of traffic, drivers are very
| likely to _not_ follow the law.
|
| I may very well be in the right and the guy running me
| over may very well be certain to get convicted, but what
| good does that do to me if my legs are broken or worse?
|
| I think it's the same thing with the new electric cars,
| which have to make a noise because people can't hear them
| coming otherwise. This, to me, means that pedestrians are
| expected to pay at least some attention to their
| surroundings. Which, of course, doesn't mean you should
| run them over or otherwise put them at risk if they're
| careless.
|
| But my overarching point is that enough people don't pay
| attention even when they are expected to, and no amount
| of noise is going to change that.
| pdimitar wrote:
| > _Because in my mental model of traffic, drivers are
| very likely to not follow the law._
|
| You are actually agreeing with your parent poster here.
| What you said is exactly why people look both ways even
| on a one-way street.
| ttymck wrote:
| I think the point, consistent with the original story, is
| that most people don't look _either_ way when crossing
| the street.
| mistercheph wrote:
| Behold, the dialectic of the material conception of the
| human mind. In my mind it bears an uncanny resemblance to
| the liquid humours posited by our forefathers, no?
| abeppu wrote:
| I still think it's "bullpucky" and two or three clueless
| pedestrians don't demonstrate anything.
|
| When living in a neighborhood where almost all of the
| houses were old and poorly insulated, the motorcycles
| which went up and down our street were loud enough that
| indoors, with the windows closed, we would have to stop
| conversations, pause tv shows, etc, and wait for them to
| pass, because one simply couldn't hear anything over
| them. This is a densely populated neighborhood; 4-8
| apartments per building tens of buildings per side per
| block, so interrupting hundreds of people per block, and
| many thousands in the course of a ride seems a reasonable
| estimate. The motorcyclists would joyride in loops, so
| you would hear them multiple times, being disrupted each
| time. I think for this reason the disruption caused per
| ride is comparable to a streaker on the field of a major
| sports event that forces game play to be paused. For
| someone who disrupts whole neighborhoods in this way, on
| regular basis, to say it's "for safety" seems like a
| narcissistic delusion. If I drive a car on the highway,
| and there are large trucks with big blindspots and
| drivers who I know are struggling after having been at it
| for 12h, should I have a siren to make sure they know I'm
| there?
|
| I must hasten to add that cyclists and pedestrians also
| have to deal with drivers in massive metal deathboxes,
| and we do it without disrupting the whole world around
| us.
| olyjohn wrote:
| Pipes point backwards. They still don't make enough noise
| to be heard from in front. That's why loud bikes always
| scare people, you don't hear them coming until they are
| next to you and blasting past you. It's silence and then
| deafening roar.
|
| Loud pipes save lives is bullshit. Defensive riding, good
| safety gear, and staying out of blind spots saves lives.
| dahfizz wrote:
| People are conditioned to ignore the droning sound of
| exhaust. It's ubiquitous and also not very directional.
| Horns, on the other hand, usually work to get peoples
| attention.
| a2tech wrote:
| The sound on those bikes are directed almost entirely
| backwards. Which is why you can hear a Harley that blows
| by you until they get 2 miles ahead, but that same bike
| is essentially silent while it's closing on you from
| behind. It's a stupid argument.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Or if they were like me, they were trying to ignore the
| loud sound damaging their ears that 99.999% is a vehicle
| nowhere near them.
| LispSporks22 wrote:
| Even louder pipes with high frequency noise should help
| with directionality /s
|
| My bike came with a Yoshimura and it is deafening to me
| even on a 372cc. I had to buy a baffle for it and wear
| earplugs. My watch warns me it's still 90 to 100 dB.
|
| I guess it kinda sounds cool for about a minute before
| being unhealthy. It was a surprise to me that anyone want
| such a thing when I first started out.
| jorvi wrote:
| Or they were just blocking your way.
|
| Whenever I hear a douche nozzle with an extremely loud
| exhaust, I start crossing / walking obnoxiously slow. Two
| can play the game.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| It was a _legal_ , unmodified exhaust. It was loud, but
| not "extremely" so. Also, they were not _crossing_ , they
| were _walking down_ the middle of the street. You know,
| where cars are supposed to go. People walk on sidewalks.
|
| This was a Paris street, with two large sidewalks on
| either side of a narrowish one-way street. It's not like
| they had no other practical choice.
| natch wrote:
| They were in Paris! This changes everything. Of course
| they were walking in the middle of the street.
|
| Plus, Paris or not, with no setback for the buildings
| nobody wants to risk getting leftover washing liquid
| poured on them from a window.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > Plus, Paris or not, with no setback for the buildings
| nobody wants to risk getting leftover washing liquid
| poured on them from a window.
|
| Wtf, this is not backwater Russia we're talking about
| (aka the places where the Russian units originated that
| were caught looting washing machines). I've _never_ seen
| someone be as intentionally rude as to dump out water
| from a window.
| dustincoates wrote:
| I sort of see it all the time in Paris. I almost got
| dumped on a couple of weeks ago when walking my children.
| If we had been five seconds earlier, we would have been
| soaked.
|
| (I say "sort of" because I assume it's generally people
| watering plants, but the amount of water coming down
| seems excessive.)
| pdimitar wrote:
| "Legal" is an arbitrary metric likely formulated in
| concert with the car/bike manufacturers via corrup...
| excuse me, via lobbying, so you should really know better
| than to use that term as a shield.
|
| Do you not agree that noise pollution is a real problem
| that has grown to unacceptable levels?
|
| Expect even more civil disobedience -- I've observed the
| same as you in my city, people started doing it on
| purpose to sabotage cars and bikes taking way too much
| space on iconic scenic streets.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| I do agree. It's one of the reasons why I've sold that
| bike several years ago.
|
| But I very much doubt this was done on purpose. This was
| not an "iconic" street by any means, just a random street
| of no particular interest, with close to no traffic,
| pedestrian or vehicle. Such "iconic" streets do exist,
| and they usually have specific road rules where people
| are allowed to walk in the middle of street and cars are
| expected to avoid them (the streets) as much as possible.
| This was no such street.
|
| Plus, they were already walking down the middle of the
| road much before I was close to them. I've also seen
| other people do the same even with no vehicle in sight,
| in this or other similar streets. This is also a problem
| for bicycles, which also have to ride in the street and
| aren't exactly a source of annoying noise.
| i_am_proteus wrote:
| I've noticed the same on my motorcycle. The pipe points
| out the back.
| brailsafe wrote:
| It's an absolutely delusional argument imo. I think
| SciShow did an episode on it, but drivers can not hear
| motorcycles until they're right next to them, and I
| believe it has to do with how sound travels.
| pharmakom wrote:
| If the only way for a vehicle to be operated safely is
| for it to be incredibly loud, then how about we ban them
| from urban areas or perhaps in general?
| hgsgm wrote:
| Ban cars because loud noises are required to make them
| not kill people? Good idea.
| KRAKRISMOTT wrote:
| They are banned in many major European and Asian cities
| for a good reason
| avidiax wrote:
| Doing dangerous stuff is cool. All the coolest bikers
| stealth their bikes. Put on extra silent exhausts. Dress
| in all black. Dim their lights. Hide in the blind spots
| of other cars.
|
| Hire some people to put that on TikTok, and it's problem
| solved.
| notacoward wrote:
| Exactly. As far as I've been able to tell, mere noise
| will do absolutely _nothing_ to get most drivers '
| attention. I've seen drivers fail to notice a police car
| or other emergency vehicle behind them, siren and lights
| both on, as they stare fixedly at the phone in their lap.
| Even in less extreme cases, most drivers will just treat
| loud motorcycle noise as part of the general din of being
| in a place where they exist. It won't generally have any
| effect at all on their decisions to speed up, slow down,
| or change lanes. Fun fact: the more common a noise is,
| the less likely it becomes that it will have any effect
| at all on people's behavior.
| pdimitar wrote:
| Most people are either blissfully unaware of their
| surroundings regardless of the noises or they just tuned
| out said noises because there are so many of them.
|
| This is not an argument _for_ noisier exhausts. It 's an
| argument to reduce noise in general, from all sources.
| Then people will react better to the louder noises.
| LispSporks22 wrote:
| > Most people are either blissfully unaware of their
| surroundings
|
| Maybe it's my morbid search history, but I still look on
| in awe as people cross the intersection in front of me
| while deep on their phones. They don't look up to check
| at all - not even at the start!
| pdimitar wrote:
| Yeah same, it boggles my mind. I'm scared for my life of
| busy intersections, many drivers get impatient to the
| point of seemingly not caring if they'll kill you. I
| never ever look at my phone while on the move.
| junaru wrote:
| Agreed, ban headphones while walking down the street!
| ghaff wrote:
| I know you're being facetious and it would obviously be
| silly to ban them. That said wearing headphones/earphones
| while walking around a city, for me, would reduce my
| situational awareness to a degree I would absolutely not
| be comfortable with. I know plenty of people are
| comfortable doing so but, while drivers and road design
| almost certainly bear the lion's share of the blame for
| pedestrian injuries and fatalities, distracted
| pedestrians don't help themselves. (Just the other week,
| I saw a person come super-close to getting hit in a
| parking lot as they were obliviously walking across the
| traffic lane buried deep in their phone.)
| goodcanadian wrote:
| I once saw a pedestrian step out in front a speeding
| police car with lights and siren . . . I guess because
| the walk light turned green? The police car had to slam
| on its brakes and honk before the idiot noticed it.
| OscarTheGrinch wrote:
| Please turn your vehicle in to the authorities to be
| cubed immediately.
| pdimitar wrote:
| Yeah that is dumb, I agree. It's asking to be hit on the
| roads.
| masklinn wrote:
| > While this sounds like a reasonable argument, I think
| it's a load of bullpucky.
|
| I'd think it's an outright self-defeating lie: they're so
| noisy you will hear them all over with no ability to see
| them (and most of the time they're irrelevant to you), so
| you just get listening fatigue, and you stop caring aside
| from being annoyed by the constant noise. And that's just
| as a driver, as a nearby resident it's infuriating.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| I don't buy it, and I'm both a motorcycle rider and a
| driver.
|
| Some people like loud exhaust, period. It's a cool sound.
| It makes you feel powerful. Safety aspect is a
| rationalization for others and possibly yourself. In busy
| traffic, to another moving vehicle, sound is neither going
| to be heard clearly nor will it provide directional or
| distance cues. If they're interested in safety (or would
| like to think they are), ask them about their full face
| helmet, which motorcycle course they're thinking of taking
| next, and what's their training routine in the spring.
| Maybe whether they're considering a high visibility outfit
| instead of black leather.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| > It makes you feel powerful.
|
| That is all it is. It lets you impose yourself on others
| without sufficient probability of retribution.
| tomatocracy wrote:
| Underpowered scooters/mopeds can also be a huge problem (near
| me this is the main noise problem at night - usually food
| delivery drivers) - they get very noisy when they go a bit
| faster in a way more powerful motorbikes don't.
| johnwalkr wrote:
| Scooters are often 2-stroke. They have centrifugal clutches
| so they need to be revved high to engage and accelerate.
| They are also cheap and a large portion seem to have failed
| mufflers. These three things make them particularly
| annoying even if they aren't the loudest things on the
| road.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| And they _stink_ , which is even worse than the noise.
| Ever since my nose worked again after covid, I've gotten
| intensely sensitive to diesel, gas and two-stroke smoke -
| even a whiff is enough to send me into serious headaches.
| meindnoch wrote:
| And that lovely two-stroke smoke! Yummy!
| masklinn wrote:
| Around here it's definitely motorcycles, they have a
| completely different sound than delivery mopeds (which are
| almost nonexistent nearby), and they're speeding on the
| road just over.
| NikkiA wrote:
| Live near a 'late shop' where teens 'hang out', and most of
| the time the wankers revving their bikes here are doing it to
| impress teenage girls, sadly being able to overhear them
| occasionally, it seems to work.
|
| One particular bike owner literally just rides around in a
| rectangular pattern most evenings, over and over, revving
| only when he gets the junction in front of where the teens
| hang out - yes, I can hear his bike on all 4 sides of the
| pattern.
|
| However, the most annoying motorist we get, is a middle aged
| woman who owns a white audi and sits arming/disarming and
| triggering her alarm whenever she sends her husband/partner
| into the shop, she performs this ritual 2-3 times a day
| usually. Very annoying hearing 'bip.... bip bip bip... bip.
| wuuuuwuuuuwuuu bip, bip bip bip...' and so on.
| _Wintermute wrote:
| I regularly lie awake as some idiot is racing round residential
| London streets in the distance, in densely populated areas it
| must be in the thousands of people that are being disrupted by
| a single person.
| bradleyjg wrote:
| _thousands of people that are being disrupted by a single
| person_
|
| We are in a very weird place as a culture where this isn't
| necessarily considered a slam dunk to come down super hard on
| whatever it is. The pendulum has swung way too far, we need
| to move back in the direction of protecting the community.
| mistercheph wrote:
| I agree, we should bring back beheading nuisance makers, or
| at least lengthy jail sentences, "Tha' ri' o'er th'e'r w're
| roind b'it miyyun peop' yew disturbed wi' vat song ya made,
| into the old bird cage wit' ya"
| ffhhttt wrote:
| Maybe a bit to extreme?
|
| For first few offenses a few days in the stocks sounds
| reasonable, the second time we take an ear and for third
| offense you can pick between the gallows or being shipped
| to Australia.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Ha-ha, but seriously: Society seems to have lost the
| ability to curb "annoying, mildly belligerent, but not
| strictly illegal" antisocial behavior. Used to be, if
| someone did some taboo thing that irritated everyone
| around them, the community would shame him for it. Now,
| you say something to them, and everyone whips their phone
| out and you're suddenly the Village Karen, butting your
| nose in where it doesn't belong. From loud motorcycles to
| cutting in queue, to abusing retail workers, to holding
| up traffic to take a selfie, to TikTok "pranks", everyone
| can basically get away with being a narcissistic asshole,
| and everyone else just keeps their heads down,
| desperately minding their own business.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Imagine if the same applied to HN.
|
| Can some trollish comment slightly annoying tens of
| thousands of passing readers be a good cause for
| punishing the user that made it?
|
| And how severe should that punishment be?
| delecti wrote:
| You've actually raised a fantastic real example of this
| in practice.
|
| If I post a trollish comment, it'll likely get downvoted
| and/or flagged/hidden. In plausibly accidental cases,
| someone might leave a comment saying "you're likely
| getting downvoted because <douchey thing>." If I
| demonstrate a significant pattern of the same, I'll get
| shadowbanned (or fully banned).
|
| You don't need to behead drivers of annoying bikes, but
| chastisement, mild punishment, and then significant
| punishment, is a sensible escalation. One potential
| system might be where the first offense gets a warning to
| fix the problem, the second offense gets a ticket and
| order to fix the problem, and the third gets the vehicle
| impounded.
| bradleyjg wrote:
| What does it take to bring recurrences to a minimum---
| both for that person and others?
|
| I don't especially want to have the police seize loud car
| guy's car, but if that's what it takes, I'm all for it.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| How do you forsee a bill getting enough votes to make
| even a minor change, let alone 'whatever it takes', that
| could potentially penalize tens of thousands of people?
| Won't they all band up to defeat your proposal?
| bradleyjg wrote:
| What happens in practice is that those thousands of
| people degrade the quality of life of millions of people.
| Those millions, don't do anything, and don't do anything,
| and don't do anything, and then elect a populist right
| winger running on a law and order platform. Then you get
| all kinds of distraught think-pieces from distraught 25
| year old graduates of elite art colleges wondering how
| this could possibly have happened.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| How does this relate to my previous questions?
| bradleyjg wrote:
| You're a smart guy, figure it out.
| baz00 wrote:
| In the 90s, the small town I lived in had a local
| community _triple action principle_. This was
| demonstrated on a little shit that had a noisy Renault 5
| that used to get revved up all the time for no reason
| (between begging for PS5 worth of fuel at the petrol
| station to keep it alive).
|
| The first time he pissed someone off, it cost him a new
| tyre with a warning posted under the windscreen wiper,
| the second time it cost him a windscreen and a tyre. The
| third time the car had to be scraped off the road with a
| pick axe after being torched. The police saw nothing and
| did not do anything about it because they were happy with
| the outcome.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Aka vigilante justice - the avoidance of which is
| (typically) one of the primary existential purposes of
| formal law enforcement.
| bradleyjg wrote:
| The deal is that formal law enforcement is reasonably
| effective meting out justice and that private parties
| people forgo pursuing their own.
|
| A deal can be broken by either side.
| knorker wrote:
| Also motorcycles.
|
| How anyone can be comfortable annoying more people per hour
| than they'll meet in their entire life I'll never understand.
| OGWhales wrote:
| > There are so many cars modified to have explosive sounding
| exhausts it's unreal
|
| > There is no reason other than you want to look like a
| complete wanker
|
| In case anyone doesn't know, the pop sound can serve a real
| purpose. The sound comes from extra fuel being ignited in the
| exhaust, which is done to keep the turbo spinning when you let
| off the gas. It helps minimize turbo lag. It also occurs in
| older race cars that had carburetors because they had less
| precise control over fuel injection compared to modern cars.
|
| That said, some people tune their car to imitate that sound
| with no purpose just cause they think it sounds cool. They
| waste extra fuel just to sound like that.
| halifaxbeard wrote:
| There's also the pop on gear shifts, due to killing the spark
| on gear shifts for a faster shift. The alternative is that
| awful dreadful rev-hang in standard transmission cars.
| pcurve wrote:
| Those pops are "features" in some stock unmodified cars too. So
| unnecessary.
| bluetomcat wrote:
| Blame Jeremy Clarkson and the car culture he fostered. For
| decades, new and old cars were judged by their ability to spin
| their wheels around a test track, and by the loudness of their
| exhaust heard inside a tunnel.
| petesergeant wrote:
| Oh come on. He's a terrible person, loud cars are a freaking
| nuisance, but to claim that he's the reason everyone from
| Thai teenagers to Georgian gangsters to Emirati chammaks[0]
| is removing their muffler because of him is bizarrely and
| myopically Anglocentric.
|
| 0: choosing countries I'm familiar with
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| Blaming Clarkson for loud cars is like blaming videogames for
| mass shootings. Car yobs, and the tuning culture, existed way
| before Top Gear became popular entertainment, but is nearly
| as old as the invention of the automobile.
|
| Also, here's some AI generated Top Gear to give you
| nightmares: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYWCIJgw610
| lnxg33k1 wrote:
| I'd blame the people doing that, not the one who makes a
| show, it is not because I like cars and like to run them on
| tracks I am responsible for those who drive modified cars in
| urban areas
| puchatek wrote:
| Monkey see Monkey do though
| baz00 wrote:
| The problem is monkeys
| Aurornis wrote:
| There's a marked difference between a performance car with an
| aggressive exhaust under wide open throttle and a modified
| economy car with a stupid loud exhaust under normal driving.
|
| Even the super cars have to obey noise regulations. The
| modified cars can be 10-20dB louder, which is a lot.
| bowsamic wrote:
| I'm a Brit (living in Germany) and I think it's much more
| related to our hatred of rule-following, combined with
| austerity. I am still surprised at how rebellious people are
| in the UK. During COVID, I barely saw any police confront
| those who weren't wearing masks. When I moved to Hamburg, the
| transport security would stand at the stations and if they
| saw someone asleep on the S-Bahn with their mask falling off
| they would go on the train and berate them. One funny thing
| was getting the S-Bahn from the airport, all the Brits would
| not be wearing masks even though you were required to by law.
| They would keep it up for about 3 stops before getting scared
| at all the staring and putting their masks on. Frankly, it's
| just a very different world. In the UK, it genuinely seems
| like the police are often too scared to confront anti-social
| behaviour. This is not so in mainland Europe
| walthamstow wrote:
| On the other hand, when I leave London to visit Vienna or
| Berlin or Frankfurt and I see a dozen Germanophones
| standing motionless at a crossing with a red light for
| pedestrians, but there is not a single car in sight, I
| think what on earth is wrong with these lemmings, do they
| have no brain of their own?
|
| There's a balance to be had, and I would suggest neither
| Germany nor Austria nor the UK has it right.
| baz00 wrote:
| This one gets me as my partner is German. She gets
| annoyed when I walk when there's a red crossing light.
| There's no damn cars ffs, just go.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| > but there is not a single car in sight, I think what on
| earth is wrong with these lemmings, do they have no brain
| of their own?
|
| We have more than enough bored cops that _love_ to annoy
| people both on feet and on bike with red-light tickets in
| quiet areas. For pedestrians it 's just annoying with a
| 5EUR "fine", but for bicyclists or e-scooter drivers it
| means a strike in your driver's license.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| The reason is simple: the car owners adored the Fast N Furious
| series
| rwmj wrote:
| Also people who throw litter out of their car windows. The Venn
| diagram of the two groups is likely nearly a circle.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| _I still don 't get why anyone would want to drive around
| sounding like that._
|
| Evidence from game behavior suggests ~30% of people are willing
| to experience some cost to themselves in order to inflict a
| greater one on other people. People like this don't feel they
| are winning unless someone else is losing. If true, this
| explains a great deal.
|
| https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1600451 - see figure
| 3 if you want to get right to it.
| xbar wrote:
| That is a good study, and it does explain one of the
| behaviors.
|
| But do not discount the importance of powerlessness in these
| behaviors. People who have relatively less power in their
| work, their surroundings, their relationships, there ability
| to influence their own econonmic situation, etc, still need a
| way to express power. It is easy to couch it merely in terms
| of winning/losing in the moment, but without context it is
| hard to see what the right solution is.
|
| If it is merely winning/losing/greater cost, with no
| particular motivation, then banning any particular annoying
| activity is as good a regulation as any other.
|
| But when you take away a dimension of power over an area that
| a person strongly associates with "basic freedoms" such as
| owning a camaro/civic/harley/gixxer and tuning it to their
| liking, including making it incredibly and illegally loud,
| you are making a more fundamental policy decision than you
| might realize.
|
| My take is that these make for bad county/state/federal laws.
| They are fine for city laws that are associated with modest
| fines, because that is the kind of law that continues to
| enable some expression of control and personal power-- an
| important part of dignity.
|
| They annoy me. The people and their exhausts branded
| "Neighbor Haters." But so do the pedestrians who choose to
| enter the intersection when the red hand is up and the
| countdown timer is at 3 seconds, and they feign feebleness in
| order to take nearly a minute to cross the street while 500
| people in gridlock wait in all directions. But I see it for
| what it is and choose to respect their dignity, probably when
| they need it most.
| mmastrac wrote:
| This is an extremely depressing statistic to read. I hope
| that it's something we can modify culturally rather than
| being a hard-wired part of our brains.
| nerdponx wrote:
| Outright malice probably only explains a small fraction of
| it. Partly it's just fun to make a lot of noise, and if you
| have little/no respect for other people then why not?
| BoorishBears wrote:
| A less malicious part of it also arises from the fact that
| the cheaper the modification, the worse it sounds.
|
| You can make a car sound excellent with no drone with a
| $5,000 factory quality upgrade... or you can pay some bozo
| $100 to cut out your muffler and weld in a straight line
| pipe.
|
| That may not entitle them, but it represents how people
| might make this choice without intentionally being a nuance
| in mind
| petesergeant wrote:
| No no, cars and bikes leave the factory quiet. You have
| to expend time and money to Alex them noisy
| BoorishBears wrote:
| That's not true, there are cars that can break noise
| regulations stock, even mass production models:
| https://www.thedrive.com/news/stock-hyundai-elantra-n-
| fails-...
|
| The key difference is even loud factory exhaust setups
| leave room for relatively quiet operation _depending on
| how you drive_.
|
| That Elantra driver was an idiot: he went in a town and
| drove in sport mode _and_ drove in a way that forces
| extra loud pops
|
| If he hadn't been forcing it the car was perfectly
| capable of not making excessive noise.
|
| --
|
| The $100 bozo special on the other hand has none of that:
| it's always loud and obnoxious.
|
| In fact it gets _more_ obnoxious at cruising RPM because
| of drone.
|
| There are aftermarket exhausts that try to match the
| factory-style "not loud by default", but they're
| expensive because it takes careful engineering and
| integrating things like valves and Helmholtz resonators.
| navhc wrote:
| So don't make the modifications at all if it's going to
| make it a nuisance?
| BoorishBears wrote:
| Which part of "That may not entitle them" was past your
| reading comprehension?
| onetimeusename wrote:
| same here by me in a random part of the US. My house sits on a
| street that is not incorporated by the local city so the
| sheriff has jurisdiction over it and won't bother to send a
| squad car to watch for speeding. It's a residential street that
| is very straight for the area and easy to see on. The speed
| limit is 35 mph but I have clocked people going 80 mph past my
| house. I think people know it for being a good road to speed
| on. One car used both lanes to do a speed test and the marks
| are still on the street, smoke all over my yard from that one.
|
| I noticed it increased after 2020. My theory was here at least
| that people got accustomed to speeding from the empty roads and
| lower enforcement but I think the extremely low interest rates
| let people get into the car market and a lot of people bought
| obnoxious cars and modded them. Some people must like that
| noise. I think it's a signal of how their car is fast and they
| are willing to flaunt rules.
| tomatocracy wrote:
| We already have them in some areas (along with PSPOs which
| create the legal basis to fine for excessive noise). I think
| Knighsbridge was the first but believe they now also have them
| on Brompton Road and a few others - see here
| https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/london-counc...
| tistoon wrote:
| Ladies and gentlemen, be prepare for more car exhausts noises
| in the streets with the upcoming Gran Turismo movie..
| yangyang wrote:
| Part of it is the prevalence of "pop and bang" maps, modified
| ECU configuration which changes timing and allows unburnt fuel
| to enter the hot exhaust and explode.
|
| There is a purpose to this in turbocharged cars in motor racing
| - anti-lag - as the extra gases keep the turbo spinning during
| gear changes. No reason for it on public roads though.
|
| There's also a lot of "cat deletes" (removal of catalytic
| converters to improve exhaust gas flow and increase engine
| power). Illegal, but very common to see on YouTube and just
| like pretty much anything else illegal on the roads in the UK
| these days, the police don't seem to care at all.
| bbarn wrote:
| I never understood the desire to be loud. My EV is probably
| faster than most of the cars on the road screaming at the top
| of their lungs and showing off their engines and it's whisper
| quiet. I like it that way.
| randomdata wrote:
| I don't think it is about the speed. My combine tops out at
| 18MPH, but there is something about the sound its engine
| makes when it is revved up - and when you throw the hydro
| level forward, oh boy.
|
| I also enjoy concerts, though. Understandably music isn't for
| everyone.
| bbarn wrote:
| I am the guy who wears Bose noise cancelling headphones at
| work or on the plane with nothing playing :)
| rm445 wrote:
| Prior to the current generation of very fast EVs, having a
| louder vehicle was a way to indicate more power. A more
| powerful (internal combustion) engine implies more noise. Of
| course the reverse doesn't apply, more noise doesn't strictly
| imply more power - it can just be an exhaust with lousy noise
| suppression. ALSO you might eke a little more power from an
| engine with less back pressure from the exhaust, so there is
| some real effect available.
|
| So if you've got some modified monster with an insane engine,
| it's going to be loud. And if you're a wannabe with a
| superficially-modified, underpowered car, you can add more
| noise easier than you can add more power, and hope to fool
| people. It's not very laudable, but you can see how it could
| motivate the ego of the inconsiderate.
| bbarn wrote:
| Sure, and I get that I suppose. Driving fast ICE cars is a
| fun but different experience. What kills me are Honda
| civics with "performance" mufflers that muffle.. less.
| MrPatan wrote:
| If they can't make anything else, they make noise.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| these people desperately want attention
| local_issues wrote:
| So give it to them, via enforcement.
| meindnoch wrote:
| When I moved to London from Central Europe, I was surprised how
| many people drive with loud exhausts in residential areas. It
| was especially annoying during the night, when every fifteen
| minutes some idiot would drive down the nearby 2-lane road
| (Aerodrome Rd, Colindale) at full throttle.
| willcipriano wrote:
| Get better windows? I live across from a major road and I can't
| hear anything since replacing the old single panes from the
| 70's.
| illwrks wrote:
| Doesn't always work when the car is modified to make as much
| noise as possible. There's one near us that speeds up and
| down but the exhaust sounds like a gun being fired. Seriously
| loud and obnoxious.a
| baz00 wrote:
| I want to open my window. We don't have air con over here.
| willcipriano wrote:
| As far as tasks go making the world quiet is probably more
| difficult than adapting your home to be a more sound proof
| and climate controlled.
|
| My advice here is the only one actually guaranteed to
| improve the problem. It also costs less than bribing
| politicians to passing a law for you or inventing bespoke
| technology and deploying it to the sides of every road.
| bowsamic wrote:
| > As far as tasks go making the world quiet is probably
| more difficult than adapting your home to be a more sound
| proof and climate controlled.
|
| I mean, probably not, since other countries have greatly
| reduced the problem without much issue.
|
| > My advice here is the only one actually guaranteed to
| improve the problem. It also costs less than bribing
| politicians to passing a law for you or inventing bespoke
| technology and deploying it to the sides of every road.
|
| No one is denying the existence of bandaids solutions,
| but that doesn't mean we should stop at bandaid
| solutions. Frankly this sounds like libertarian ideology.
| We don't just let people do bad things because we can
| choose to insulate ourselves in a fortress, instead we
| focus on fixing society first and plan to one day remove
| the bandaid.
| willcipriano wrote:
| Well enjoy the noise and the heatwaves until the
| government gets around to resolving the problem for you.
| rwmj wrote:
| The government is us.
| ffhhttt wrote:
| > My advice here
|
| I would assume that most people here do understand that
| they can close their windows.
| jsiepkes wrote:
| You can give your windows an airtight seal but what about
| ventilation in your bedroom?
| willcipriano wrote:
| Fart fan, point the outlet towards the back yard. Bathroom
| is quiet for me. Never open the window.
| INTPenis wrote:
| I've seen this used at hacker camps, where they mount noise level
| detectors in trees to ensure that certain party areas don't
| exceed their noise levels and disturb the quiet family areas.
| fsh wrote:
| This is great. Noise pollution really is a massive blind spot in
| vehicle regulations. Even combustion-powered cars can be made
| pretty quiet, but morons associate "loud" with "fast", so
| manufacturers keep installing defeat devices in the mufflers.
| Motorcycles are even worse. The noise measurements are apparently
| made under completely unrealistic operating conditions, and on
| the road they are many times louder than most cars.
| Eavolution wrote:
| My 1200 petrol car is so quiet you can't actually hear the
| engine from within the car, and there's no sound damping under
| the bonnet (no top engine cover, no padding on the bonnet
| itself despite the mounting there for it), so petrol cars can
| absolutely be quiet.
|
| I think the thing with motorbikes is everything is so much more
| exposed, and they rev higher in general, so the sound thing is
| probably a harder problem.
|
| I am actually of the belief that motorbikes and scooters should
| be encouraged in cities, because they are a lot smaller, and
| more efficient in general than cars (so long as you don't have
| a massive bike), and take up a lot less space when parking. Do
| most people really need a 1.5 tonne car to go to work as
| opposed to a 200kg bike?
| jounker wrote:
| It's a great theory, but it has a problem. There are quiet
| motorcycles. For example, BMW motorcycles are quiet.
|
| [BMW made a cruiser bike for a few years. They were trying to
| move into Harley's market segment. In order to get the
| "right" sound they had to detune the engine, resulting in a
| massive decrease in horsepower.]
| tga wrote:
| BMW is still making a cruiser, the R 18. I personally find
| it nicer (and not as antisocially loud) than a Harley
| bagger.
|
| https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/models/heritage/r18-b.htm
| l
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > I think the thing with motorbikes is everything is so much
| more exposed, and they rev higher in general, so the sound
| thing is probably a harder problem.
|
| Meh. Some have figured a way to make them quiet. Most
| "touring" bikes are very reasonable. I'm thinking BMW K16s,
| Honda Goldwings, Yamaha FJRs. With stock pipes, of course.
| Hell, even my VFR1200 is very quiet with the stock pipe,
| which closes a flap below 5000 RPM. When idling at a traffic
| light, if there's a car around, I can't hear the bike.
| sva_ wrote:
| > motorbikes and scooters should be encouraged in cities
|
| I find that their exhaust smells much worse though,
| especially scooters.
| be_erik wrote:
| Older two stroke scooters are obnoxious, but modern 4
| stroke engines are very common now. They're quiet and run
| pretty clean.
| junaru wrote:
| > My 1200 petrol car is so quiet you can't actually hear the
| engine from within the ca
|
| Because your car is actually insulated from that noise. Look
| at every car review ever and there is a section about noise
| isolation.
|
| Furthermore the sound is also dependent on the length of
| exhaust - your average car exhausts is longer than a whole
| bike and for example previously mentioned BMWs wriggle it
| around the whole engine back and forth just for that reason.
| This comes at the price of weight and thus handling/fuel
| efficiency and actual pollution.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| >Motorcycles are even worse.
|
| With motorcycles, it's a choice, but loud bikes are tied very
| closely to perceived power and manliness for some riders, plus
| the whole patently-bullshit POV of "loud pipes save lives."
| Honestly, it's MOSTLY Harley riders, at least in the US.
|
| I have a motorcycle. It's louder than a car is, but it's not
| obnoxiously loud at all. You can't hear it from inside YOUR
| car, for example. Further, I can have a conversation with
| someone without turning the bike off. MOST motorcycles are like
| this, in fact. But the loud assholes kinda ruin the overall
| reputation for everyone.
| konart wrote:
| Had thouse in Moscow since 2021 in test mode.
|
| Soon they will start to fine you for loud exhaust.
| buggythebug wrote:
| Lol I never saw cars when I went - everyone was on a bike!
| dealuromanet wrote:
| "Our noise cameras detected Wrongspeak. Here is the photo and
| video evidence our systems acquired. We will deduct 10% of your
| bank account to fund communal rehabilitation. The next violation
| will incur an additional cost in the form of 30 days in the
| communal barracks for reeducation at your expense. Thank you for
| supporting the Cabinet."
| inglor wrote:
| How is enforcing the law to not make loud noises that make
| everyone else's life around you worse a bad thing?
|
| What justifies someone suffering from PTSD, with a sleeping
| baby in their home or just enjoying life being put through
| noise pollution just because someone wants to make loud noises?
| dealuromanet wrote:
| Police officers can pull those people over and issue
| citations for vehicles that are too loud. You could create
| similar justifications for using these systems for monitoring
| Wrongspeak in the same way by citing PTSD, the children, or
| people who just want to enjoy life without being put through
| thought pollution when someone's thoughts are contradicting
| the Cabinet's thoughts.
|
| It's better to not have this technology deployed in the first
| place. It's very easy to have an officer pull someone over if
| their vehicle is too loud, issue a hefty citation in place,
| and then let word get around that you will get pulled over
| for exceeding the local decibel limit for your vehicle.
| [deleted]
| inglor wrote:
| We're very much stopping "thought pollution" all the time,
| we're not too great at it but the equivalent to someone
| forcing sound on you is someone forcing thoughts on you.
|
| We have laws and automatic tools (again, not great ones) to
| find propaganda and lies and try to stop them. We
| absolutely should let people decide what information to be
| exposed to better.
| mycologos wrote:
| I'm not sure that adding a layer of human discretion into
| this is going to make it more palatable to the affected
| people. For something like traffic stops, being able to
| make a convincing argument that you're not picking and
| choosing who to cite for prejudiced reasons is probably
| useful. Whether that's a good equilibrium, I'm less sure,
| but I get why a government might pursue it.
| dealuromanet wrote:
| [flagged]
| ethanbond wrote:
| Sure you could which is why your society should have strong
| protections for content of speech. _Technology_ should not
| and will not be the limiting factor on enforcement of laws,
| the laws and the constraints we place on them are.
| dealuromanet wrote:
| I don't trust the Party to care about protecting speech.
| Or to steward this technology properly. Or to be honest
| about what they're doing with the hardware. What the
| Party says publicly and what it does internally are two
| different things.
|
| What are you going to do if they abuse the power? Protest
| and try to raise awareness? They'll just bankrupt the
| entire group of protestors for being too loud.
| ethanbond wrote:
| If you want your concerns to be taken seriously, I think
| I'd steer clear of using terms like "the Party."
|
| It just doesn't seem worth it to try to have a serious
| conversation (and no it's not because The Party is
| conspiring to dismiss you).
| dealuromanet wrote:
| Do you prefer the Cabinet? Anyway if all you have are
| qualms about the allusions, then that's just the same as
| saying you don't like what I said because it makes you
| uncomfortable. It doesn't invalidate what I said. Notice
| how you ignored a legitimate question to gripe over
| allusions and words.
| ethanbond wrote:
| I don't know, _are you talking about the Cabinet?_ And
| no, it has to do with imprecision and lack of
| seriousness. For example I never would've guessed that
| "the Party" was meant to refer to "the Cabinet."
|
| So your claim is that in the US, where there are strong
| protections for content of speech, the Secretary of
| Defense, Transportation Sec, Secretary of Interior, etc,
| will _bankrupt_ protestors?
|
| Seems like a laughable claim but I'm interested to see
| your evidence for it.
| martin8412 wrote:
| To argue in court that a vehicle is too loud, they'd need a
| meter in their cars similar to how they measure speed to be
| able to argue in court that you were speeding. So in
| effect, you'd have the exact same thing except it would be
| mobile.
| dealuromanet wrote:
| You'd need police officers in police cruisers waiting for
| the sign of trouble. The officers would communicate with
| one another when they notice a loud vehicle pass by. Then
| they can use a noise gun to get a decibel reading. This
| is an intentional physical bottleneck placed on the
| surveillance apparatus so that it is limited to only
| identifying and pursuing those cars that are too loud.
| You would have the same end result if the fines are hefty
| enough without needing to build and deploy a surveillance
| dragnet that you won't be able to escape from once it
| exists.
|
| A town or city would do better with a few police officers
| in cruisers keeping an eye on things than with these
| boxes deployed on every streetlight listening 24/7.
| johnwalkr wrote:
| As the article said, several microphones are required to
| pinpoint the location of sound. Location and distance are
| very important to measuring sound.
|
| I forget what city recently tried to enforce vehicle
| noise, but I recall reading that virtually all tickets
| were thrown out under argument that the distance, angle
| of meter, nearby materials weren't perfect enough to
| measure adequately.
|
| Furthermore as far as I've seen, measurements are with a
| handheld meter after the vehicle is pulled over, not when
| the driver is wide-open-throttle and over the speed
| limit.
|
| It makes much more sense to measure from a fixed location
| while the vehicle is in motion.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Several cities in the US are way ahead of you. There are
| cameras and microphones on LED lamp posts being used for _"
| big-data"_ whatever that means. Here [1] is just one of the
| cities and I suspect that once the lawsuits started being flung
| the other cities buying these likely kept it quiet. There are
| no federal or state laws banning these so it is up to cities to
| decide if they want to ban/permit this data ingestion. There
| are a myriad of other articles if one wants to go down this
| rabbit hole.
|
| [1] - https://www.smartcitiesdive.com/news/san-diego-faces-
| lawsuit...
| dealuromanet wrote:
| I do not support this technology being used anywhere. It is
| not surprising to me that cities in California would be the
| ones interested in this. I do not trust most of these cities
| to be responsible stewards in general, least of all when it
| comes to surveillance equipment. California's politicians
| have lost track of reality and priorities.
| trehalose wrote:
| If I were to walk around in public blasting airhorns in
| strangers' ears and shining laser pointers in their eyes just
| for fun, would you be outraged when a police officer tells me
| to stop exercising my free speech?
| dealuromanet wrote:
| Key words: when a police officer tells you
|
| Those things are not free speech and your examples are
| disingenuous. If you need to reach for disingenuous examples
| in defense of the Cabinet's chosen machinery, you don't have
| an argument worth standing on.
| ses1984 wrote:
| Comparing road noise to wrongspeak is also disingenuous.
| dealuromanet wrote:
| There was no comparison between road noise and
| wrongspeak. That was a warning. The Cabinet wants boxes
| that hear things with precision 24/7 and can issue fines.
| Of course they'll justify it however they can.
|
| It's a warning because the power will be abused. You have
| 1984 in your username - I recommend re-reading that book
| if it's been a while since you read it.
| ses1984 wrote:
| How often are you discussing your political dissension in
| the middle of the road?
|
| I'm appropriately paranoid about abuse of power in other
| areas, like for example monitoring personal telecom.
| dealuromanet wrote:
| It's not about what I do. Your response is similar to
| people who respond to privacy advoates with "what do you
| have to hide" or who brush aside their concerns with "I
| have nothing to hide."
|
| One thing to consider is the trend of expected speech or
| compulsory speech. There are people who would want to see
| if other people are saying what they want them to say,
| rather than just not saying what they don't want them to
| say. There are people who weigh someone's words to see
| how dedicated they are to a cause or to an idea or to a
| movement.
|
| These technologies empower language police even in cases
| where someone would otherwise choose to say nothing. And
| they establish a precedent.
| ses1984 wrote:
| I'm firmly not in the "I have nothing to hide" camp.
|
| I am firmly in the "pick your battles" camp.my
|
| Worrying about cameras on the road picking up your speech
| when 99% of the population willingly carries smartphones
| doesn't seem like the right place to pick a fight.
| cuddlyogre wrote:
| Every law written can be abused. That doesn't mean we shouldn't
| have laws. And of all the differences people have, most people
| agree with the laws that protect people from intentional and
| indiscriminate harm.
|
| People with loud exhausts are injuring people intentionally and
| indiscriminately.
|
| Usually it's through a stress response that turns into PTSD if
| a person has to endure it for too long.
|
| Another injury comes from sleep deprivation. Going
| days/weeks/months/years without reliable and uninterrupted
| sleep is an actual torture method that permanently damages
| people in both mind and body.
|
| Other times it's tinnitus from being exposed to noise levels
| far, far above safe ranges. Even "quiet" bikes are allowed to
| be well above safe noise levels. Tinnitus doesn't heal.
|
| Hiding behind your freedom of expression to justify
| intentionally and indiscriminately injuring people is low.
| dealuromanet wrote:
| Nah, what's low is to pretend that the solution to any of
| those is surveillance deployed at scale. Police officers in
| cruisers with radar and noise guns coordinating amongst one
| another to pull over and fine some drivers with very loud
| cars accomplish the same result without empowering abusive
| centralized authorities with boxes that hear everything 24/7.
|
| > That doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws.
|
| Nobody said we shouldn't have laws.
| wschfdkbrmcdf wrote:
| [flagged]
| dealuromanet wrote:
| The worst part is how many people in the other comments are
| begging for this to be brought to their city too. They've
| been trained well.
| CommanderData wrote:
| How does the camera distinguish and localise a noisy car amoung
| 20-30 normal cars.
|
| Even with directional microphones automated fines may be
| indiscriminately issued for potentially just being near one or
| behind one.
|
| This system needs to be close to perfect so to not distract
| innocent drivers with the idea of a rogue fine, in turn cause a
| driver to stress and elevate road risk.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| It's the Japanese car with a wing on the back and a big chrome
| exhaust tip.
| inglor wrote:
| Amazing, it's so great to see this done and I wish sound
| pollution was taken nearly as seriously where I live.
|
| Another cool thing is when I visited Japan and I learned a lot of
| the tools and drills used in renovations have more quiet/less
| noisy counterparts so when someone remodels a room in an
| apartment building or house next door it doesn't actually have to
| ruin your work-from-home day.
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