[HN Gopher] Cloud outage causes Bambu 3D printers to start print...
___________________________________________________________________
Cloud outage causes Bambu 3D printers to start printing on their
own
Author : rcarmo
Score : 61 points
Date : 2023-08-19 09:52 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (themessenger.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (themessenger.com)
| whynotmaybe wrote:
| Just to be clear, it's possible to print on the Bambu without an
| internet connection right?
| Filligree wrote:
| Yes, either by SD card or through Wi-Fi.
| ianschmitz wrote:
| Yes it does support local connection, although in my experience
| it hasn't worked well possibly because I have my IoT devices on
| a separate VLAN.
| StayTrue wrote:
| I researched Bambu printers before and it seemed, at least at the
| time, you could not manage it with open source Octoprint. I
| prefer not to connect my printer to the live network but still
| want to access it remotely, which Octoprint accomplishes via
| serial connection.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Don't buy any hardware that requires a cloud connection. I was
| shopping around for inverters for my solar installation a few
| months ago and it took some digging but I found a bunch of brands
| that do not have a mandatory cloud component. Those got the
| order. There is no way I'm going to hand over the responsibility
| for the electrical system in my house to some backend developer
| in a faraway country, nor do I want such gear on my LAN without
| it being on a completely different segment and without any access
| to the net.
|
| In general anything that contains a heating element or that
| generates or uses power in the KW range should not be internet
| accessible. Too many griefers in this world.
| villgax wrote:
| Screw bamboo with a bamboo
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| Anti-features like this just make me more convinced to get a
| Voron instead. Open source design, great community, almost
| infinitely moddable, and at least as capable as the Bambu. You
| can self-source all the parts or buy kits from various vendors.
|
| https://vorondesign.com/
|
| However, I say all this as someone that is technically inclined,
| wants to tinker, and is a fan of the open source. Somebody that
| wants plug-and-play should definitely look at another printer.
| solotronics wrote:
| +1 for Voron project. I recommend first time builders to get a
| reputable Voron kit, you will save a lot of time creating
| wiring harnesses and such.
| traverseda wrote:
| Voron seems like so much work honestly, and it's still quite
| expensive.
| allenrb wrote:
| I've got a Prusa Mk4 and it supports some sort of cloud feature.
| Can't tell you more than that because it's turned off and there
| it shall stay.
|
| I'm able to print perfectly well over the LAN, thank-you-very-
| much.
| bbielsa wrote:
| I own a Bambu P1S and Bambu does not deserve the benefit of the
| doubt in this case. The cloud (anti-)feature is entirely
| unnecessary and gives them free license to use all recordings
| from the webcam in the printer.
|
| The printer has to be connected to the "cloud" in order to access
| the webcam, control the internal lights, and control the print
| head and heated bed from their Bambu app. However, part of the
| initial setup process requires you to connect to the printer via
| Bluetooth in order to setup the wifi connection in the first
| place! Clearly it IS possible to communicate with the printer
| without an internet connection.
|
| They intentionally ruined the user experience in LAN-only mode to
| persuade people to connect their printers to the Bambu cloud
| service.
| dawnerd wrote:
| They've been improving lan only move including allowing you to
| view the video feed. I think you're being a bit hard on them
| when they've already said they're making more improvements to
| lan only and they're listening to feedback. They released a
| statement about this issue pretty fast and seemed for
| transparent than most companies would have been.
| fbdab103 wrote:
| What is the justification that the company is entitled to all
| of my data? This is no different from HP using dark patterns
| to get the average consumer to lock their printer into the
| cloud.
|
| A pinkie promise that, "We'll do better after you got burned
| for our data-collection greed" falls a little flat.
| Filligree wrote:
| The data in question is how the build plate looks while
| printing, which gets directly fed back into the ML model
| used to detect print failures. Spaghetti detection is half
| the point of owning one.
|
| The camera we're talking about only sees the inside of the
| printer.
| hansvm wrote:
| > The camera we're talking about only sees the inside of
| the printer
|
| Devil's advocate, inadvertent peephole cameras and
| reflections in surprisingly small regions of interest are
| a fact of how light interacts with glass, metals, low-
| tolerance parts, and the other sorts of things that make
| up the printer. There are lots of recent fun papers
| inverting the pattern going around a curved painted
| corner or through a hole accommodating the string holding
| up your blinds or whatnot to get a detailed view of
| what's on the other side.
|
| Their malicious use cases are probably less cutting edge.
| gumballindie wrote:
| Why on earth do 3D printers need a cloud connection, but most
| importantly why do people buy them?
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The main feature is being able to remotely check up on your
| 3D prints and cancel them if they've gone wrong as well as
| being able to print remotely. These are actually fairly
| useful which is why people do buy them, though you could make
| it work without cloud connections.
| gumballindie wrote:
| A lan connection and a raspberry pi will do that just fine.
| Plugin a webcam and the USB connector of the printer. Been
| doing this >10 years ago and i was able to upload print
| models, monitor progress, and cancel. Use USB hubs if you
| have more than one printer.
| anonymousab wrote:
| It is completely doable, and there's a lot of good
| software and tutorials to get it done. But there's all
| sorts of things that could complicate that process.
|
| For instance, with my last 3d printer, I had to open it
| up and jump some pins on the mainboard, and then had to
| get a specific piece of (cheap and readily available) USB
| hardware to write to it from a laptop - and even then, it
| only worked from a specific USB port on some of my
| machines, because of weird USB host incompatibilities.
| And my 3d printer was one of the most common buy-this-
| one-first products of its time!
|
| Oh, and there was also some weirdness with the PSU as
| well that somehow caused flakiness when powering up the
| webcam when I tried to share power for the pi with the
| printer itself. I'm comfortable with troubleshooting
| that, but I wouldn't expect nor even want the average
| person to have to bother with that kind of stuff.
|
| So the appeal/marketing of the Bambu products is that
| it's not something for tinkerers - it's something that
| the average person can just setup and immediately get
| reliable prints, with all the bells and whistles on top
| of it.
|
| In other words, the idea is that it (quite literally)
| "just works". Even with the drawbacks that we all know
| about proprietary devices and cloud services, it does its
| job for the average person.
|
| The positive side of all this is that Bambu's relative
| success means a bit of pressure on the other leaders in
| the 3D printing space, and we can see that they're all
| iterating quickly and well to compete in aspects where
| they may have been resting on their laurels before.
| Filligree wrote:
| And then you also set up a VPN connection to your phone,
| mess with certificates and whatnot? Though you'll also
| need to use some form of cloud system to get past CGNAT,
| since you probably have that on both ends. My ISP hasn't
| provided IP addresses in years.
|
| Most people just want a printer, not _two_ new hobbies.
| jrockway wrote:
| Why do you want to operate your printer when you're not
| on your LAN? I certainly have no control over my printer
| (other than the power switch) from the Outside World. I
| consider this to be a security feature.
| anonymousab wrote:
| > Why do you want to operate your printer when you're not
| on your LAN?
|
| Checking the progress of your prints remotely and
| stopping them if something has gone wrong. There's
| options for spaghetti detection and so on, but those
| aren't perfect, and other kinds of failures can happen.
| jrockway wrote:
| I don't leave the house when I have something printing.
| You can't extinguish a fire with a remote power switch.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The point of these printers is to be reliable and
| accessible enough that you don't have to worry about
| that, just like you don't worry about supervising your
| drier.
|
| Just like most appliances, a 3D printer will only catch
| fire in the case of a serious hardware malfunction or
| egregious user error. The point is for this to be rare
| enough that the risk is negligible, so all you'd worry
| about is your print failing.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| The point is that you don't want this to just be on LAN,
| you would want to be able to this from anywhere. That way
| if you're at work or going out you can still do that. If
| you wanted it to just be on LAN, you can just disable the
| cloud features, but for many people that's a big selling
| point.
|
| You can make it work over the internet without a cloud
| connection, but it's fiddly and requires set-up (port
| forwarding or hole punching). People don't want that, and
| Bambu's value proposition is zero-tweaking at high
| performance - otherwise you'd go for another model.
| baz00 wrote:
| [flagged]
| parsimo2010 wrote:
| Bambu had a pretty big marketing campaign with their
| printers. All the major reviewers/influencers in the 3d
| printing community were provided review samples, and
| presumably talking points to emphasize. Most all reviews
| focused on the high print speeds and advanced technology in
| the printers.
|
| Things like the nearly required cloud integration were
| glossed over with "that's normal today and you get so many
| shiny features with it" and hardly anyone challenged Bambu by
| saying that most of the features enabled by cloud integration
| didn't really need the cloud to be implemented. Things like
| immature firmware were glossed over with comments like "there
| are some bugs but that can be fixed over time, so just go
| ahead and assume that this young company without a proven
| track record will provide good support to these printers."
|
| Add the marketing to the consideration that there were no
| other pre-built "fast" printers when the Bambu printers hit
| the market. Your only other option was to build your own like
| a Voron, which many people didn't want to do. Now there are
| other pre-built options that don't require cloud integration,
| so people can really weigh the pros/cons of the other
| options, but Bambu got an advantage by being first to market.
| gamblor956 wrote:
| This is completely wrong...
|
| When the Bambu came out, there was nothing like it on the
| market that combined price, speed, and ease-of-use. Yes,
| there were cheaper printers, and faster printers, and
| easier-to-use printers, but not in a single package, and
| especially not in a pre-built package.
|
| _Things like immature firmware were glossed over_
|
| The "immature" firmware is still better than the "mature"
| firmware Creality ships. And Prusa shipped buggy firmware
| for its multi-material addon for several years, despite
| being in the 3d printing game for over a decade.
|
| _Bambu got an advantage by being first to market._
|
| Bambu's first printer came out last year. The Anker Make
| came out before it. Creality and Prusa have been shipping
| 3d printers for a decade. Voron has been a thing for about
| a decade. What is this "first to market" advantage you
| speak of?
| blibble wrote:
| > When the Bambu came out, there was nothing like it on
| the market that combined price, speed, and ease-of-use.
| Yes, there were cheaper printers, and faster printers,
| and easier-to-use printers, but not in a single package,
| and especially not in a pre-built package.
|
| are they hoping to monetise you in a future update?
|
| continued use? $19.99/month
| gamblor956 wrote:
| I'm not sure what you're getting at. There's no
| subscription cost for using the cloud update, and it's
| possible to control the printers over WiFi using open
| source slicers.
|
| So it appears you're angry about a strawman that doesn't
| actually exist.
| f001 wrote:
| What would you recommend as an alternative pre-built "fast"
| printer?
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| > However, part of the initial setup process requires you to
| connect to the printer via Bluetooth in order to setup the wifi
| connection in the first place! Clearly it IS possible to
| communicate with the printer without an internet connection.
|
| This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes 30
| feet, so your connection would likewise only go... 30 feet. All
| of the things you can control on your smartphone can be
| controlled on the printer itself, so what's the point?
|
| Unless you are complaining that you can't use the smartphone
| app, while at your own home on Wi-Fi, without connecting to the
| cloud. That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of
| customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a
| smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and
| upsetting.
|
| Finally, while it doesn't work from the app, you can control
| those things and view footage using the Bambu Studio desktop
| app without a cloud connection, IIRC. You just need a PC, not a
| phone, though I would argue this makes sense as a fair trade-
| off considering the consumer demographics. A PC would be way
| more reliable anyway as your phone would be switching onto cell
| tower networks which obviously don't have your printer on them.
|
| Edit: Also, Bluetooth tops out under perfect conditions at 2.2
| Megabits. Real world is far lower. You can't reliably send a
| video stream over Bluetooth. Heck, Apple doesn't even try to
| send a lossless audio stream over Bluetooth.
| techie128 wrote:
| You're missing the point. Instead of focusing on 'Bluetooth',
| focus on GP's underlying point which was that Bamboo should
| make it possible to have offline experience which is
| comparable to the cloud connected experience.
|
| Now to address your original concern about Bluetooth.
| Bluetooth is not the best fit but Bamboo printers do have
| WiFi. They can host local web UI which is what pretty much
| every other product does. It requires will and resources to
| support offline tooling for users though. It also reduces the
| probability that the user will subscribe to their cloud
| services, if any.
|
| Coming to the point of an App only working at home. Well,
| there are several ways to address this issue WITHOUT
| requiring a user to use their Cloud offering. A simple way is
| to EDUCATE your users that the app will only function on
| local wifi. Average users are smarter than you think. If the
| user would like their app to work when they're not home,
| offer them an option to connect to the cloud but do not make
| it mandatory. Next, the printer can use a combination of
| UPnP, Dynamic DNS to expose it over the internet. Yes, it is
| scary to do this but with the right security practices it is
| possible to expose your printer over the internet so your app
| can reach it. You don't need their cloud to be the
| intermediary.
|
| Finally, these printers will likely stop working entirely if
| the company goes out of business or decides to wind down
| their 3D printing business or just plain planned obsolescence
| of specific models. All in all, subscription & online paid
| services for hardware products is an anti-consumer model.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| I am convinced you have no idea what you are talking about.
|
| > Finally, these printers will likely stop working entirely
| if the company goes out of business or decides to wind down
| their 3D printing business or just plain planned
| obsolescence of specific models
|
| They can be set up without internet. They can print from a
| microSD card without internet. I have a Bambu X1, have
| never connected it to the internet, and everything works
| fine. No worse than a Prusa from 2 years ago would have.
|
| Except, even better, I can connect it to a LAN, without
| internet, and access the camera from my PC using their
| open-source desktop app. I can't do it from my phone, but
| my PC isn't hopping between networks constantly.
|
| Saying it will die if the company goes bankrupt is pure
| FUD.
|
| I don't know if it's worth addressing the other points
| considering this level of ignorance. Especially this:
|
| > Next, the printer can use a combination of UPnP, Dynamic
| DNS to expose it over the internet. Yes, it is scary to do
| this but with the right security practices it is possible
| to expose your printer over the internet so your app can
| reach it. You don't need their cloud to be the
| intermediary.
|
| This has the reasonability of the now-infamous Hacker News
| diss when Dropbox was invented.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
|
| Also, we are in an IP Address shortage. More internet
| companies like StarLink are disabling port forwarding
| because they don't have enough addresses and the cost per
| address is currently insane. It might not even be an option
| for a growing number of people out of technical necessity.
| In addition, many ISPs, including mine (Xfinity), reserve
| the right to ban you for running a home server of any kind
| - Bambu obviously doesn't view encouraging people to persue
| activities that could get them banned from their ISP as a
| viable solution. Even with a warning sticker.
| bbielsa wrote:
| > This is actually a pretty bad argument. Bluetooth only goes
| 30 feet, so your connection would likewise only go... 30
| feet.
|
| I may not have made myself clear with my original argument, I
| meant to say offline controls are clearly possible. So if
| offline controls are possible there's 0 excuses for controls
| not to be available in LAN-only mode. (LAN-only is wifi
| connected, cloud disabled)
|
| > All of the things you can control on your smartphone can be
| controlled on the printer itself, so what's the point?
|
| It is way easier to tap a button on the app when dealing with
| hardware issues than using the built in menus (that's my
| opinion). But more importantly there is no valid reason to
| not make them available in LAN-only mode, that was an
| intentional decision on their part.
|
| > That is, I will just say right now, not how 90%+ of
| customers would expect an app to work. For most people, a
| smartphone app that only works at home is confusing and
| upsetting.
|
| The 3D printing community is pretty technical, so I think
| anyone disabling cloud mode would be able to understand the
| consequences. An opt-out (without degrading the experience)
| is all bambu owners are asking for. And keep in mind 3D
| printers are a fire hazard so printing while you aren't home
| is a risk.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| I told you already, it's called Bambu Studio. It offers
| remote control, and monitoring, to a locally networked PC.
|
| https://wiki.bambulab.com/en/software/bambu-studio/remote-
| co...
|
| You just can't do it from your phone. Which, considering
| your phone likes connecting to cell phone towers (and thus
| disconnecting from your printer), I completely get why they
| didn't want to bother.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _considering your phone likes connecting to cell phone
| towers (and thus disconnecting from your printer)_
|
| I don't know what kind of weird broken phones you have,
| but every smart phone I've ever used has had no trouble
| connecting to things on local networks via wifi even when
| not in a cell deadzone. Your objection sounds made up to
| me.
| Aloha wrote:
| I see no reason why you couldn't run a printer over BT,
| indeed there are meany BT printers out there.
| mvdtnz wrote:
| You had a lot of options when you purchased that unit yet you
| still chose Bambu.
| Baeocystin wrote:
| Here's Bambu's response, for the interested:
|
| https://blog.bambulab.com/update-for-cloud-downtime/
| thfuran wrote:
| >To reduce fire risks should something like this week's errors
| happen again, all of the company's 3D printers will also be
| updated to continuously monitor the "hotend and heatbed
| temperature," alerting users when a fault is detected, and
| automatically turning off heater mechanisms.
|
| So their current product offering includes a heating element
| capable of starting a fire but no monitoring or cutoff?
| KnobbleMcKnees wrote:
| There are lots of hardware features that enable cutoff (such as
| thermal runaway detection) but that's irrelevant to situations
| in which the environment has not been prepared for printing.
|
| For example, your workshop may be well ventilated during the
| day and completely closed up at night. All the safety features
| in the world don't add up to a 100% safe usage experience for
| _any_ piece of hardware. You don 't want your printer doing
| this for the same reason you don't leave your table saw running
| when locking up for the night. Technically safe, but
| unadvisable.
| thfuran wrote:
| >All the safety features in the world don't add up to a 100%
| safe usage experience for any piece of hardware
|
| Yes, obviously. But that doesn't mean you should omit basic
| safety features.
| dawnerd wrote:
| They have a physical thermal fuse too that wasn't mentioned.
| amluto wrote:
| From the article, it sounds like there is a temperature sensor,
| but it's not enabled in software.
| LocalH wrote:
| This is a problem borne from several factors. Horrible data
| policies that monetize every single thing that can be collected,
| overuse of things like CGNAT that complicate inbound connections,
| the "residential customers may not run servers" clause found in
| many ISP ToS, and probably some others that I'm not mentioning.
|
| The combination of big government and big tech has normalized so
| many destructive corporate behaviors, that I fear we will never
| be able to fix the problem from within the system, nor will a
| successful revolution ever happen. Humanity is _absolutely
| fucked_ , if we continue on the current trajectory. And _no
| nation_ that has any significant influence is without fault. The
| modern "civilized" world is garbage for the vast majority of
| individuals.
| nottorp wrote:
| Incident or no incident, why do these things need the "cloud" to
| operate?
| judge2020 wrote:
| They have a way to view your printer's camera iirc. Open ports
| on your router aren't a good solution anymore especially with
| individual v4s being removed in some residential deployments.
| Filligree wrote:
| Because a print can take multiple days, you're supposed to keep
| an eye on, and you might want to leave the house.
| nottorp wrote:
| ... and because i'm not into 3d printers, i rightfully
| assumed it's there to make you pay for a subscription or
| something ;)
| Filligree wrote:
| Nope, there's no cost for it.
|
| Equivalent systems from other companies do have
| subscriptions though.
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| Reminder the Bambu works just fine printing from a microSD card
| without the cloud. No cloud connection is required to set up
| the printer either.
| a254613e wrote:
| They don't. You can switch to LAN-only mode, or disable the
| network connection altogether and put gcode on a microSD card
| and print from that.
| bboygravity wrote:
| Nothing needs cloud to operate.
|
| Cloud is for tracking.
| bbarnett wrote:
| I think need just happens. Many users don't have computers, or
| even a tablet.
|
| So the cloud is seen as a requirement, and in the end, no
| desktop app gets created.
| readyplayernull wrote:
| Analytics in the name of safety.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Just to add here. I've added a pi to my non-cloud printer
| exactly for the features this one promises.
|
| I still wouldn't use somebody's else cloud for them, but they
| are very useful things.
| postalrat wrote:
| Because cloud is a feature and features have value.
| h2odragon wrote:
| How about we have appliances _without_ remote controls?
|
| What benefit does "cloud" offer a 3d printer? Couldn't all the
| same features be offered with local computing? Isn't "cloud" just
| a route for trouble for almost all users?
|
| I'm leery of the whole "image recognition to spot errors" thing
| _anyway_. you 've got far more direct inputs to monitor. is image
| recognition truly that reliable or is it not just a source of
| more errors when the recognition software goes awry?
| stainablesteel wrote:
| i don't see why it isn't a viable business model either
|
| just make people a printer and you don't need to develop a
| massive IT overhead
|
| wouldn't this give you the ability to sell a cheaper product
| while marketing yourself as "not selling your customers
| information"?
| Filligree wrote:
| And almost every cheap 3D printer does this. You won't have
| trouble finding one.
|
| The reality is that Bambu makes a premium product, in part
| precisely due to the cloud features. Which you can turn off,
| or never activate, but no-one does.
|
| Printers like these really genuinely do benefit from cloud
| connectivity. Unfortunately that doesn't mean you can skip on
| QC...
| dylan604 wrote:
| >just make people a printer and you don't need to develop a
| massive IT overhead
|
| but think of all of those off-shored jobs you'd be taking
| away!
| gjsman-1000 wrote:
| > How about we have appliances without remote controls?
|
| The Bambu systems work just fine from a microSD card without an
| internet connection at setup or in use. The Cloud is optional,
| and I think that any user who decides to use the cloud should
| be aware of the logical risks included.
|
| > Couldn't all the same features be offered with local
| computing? Isn't "cloud" just a route for trouble for almost
| all users?
|
| Many can, including viewing the cameras, which now work just
| fine with LAN mode on Bambu printers. However, I would argue
| people _want_ to remotely check on their prints (what if I
| started a 12-hour print, left for work, and want to make sure
| it looks good at lunch?). The alternative there is opening
| ports on their router which, for the average person, is a much
| worse and less secure idea.
| infocollector wrote:
| I think we need a regulation
|
| 1. Any personal images/data sent to cloud need a FDA approval.
| (FDA = Federal Data Administration) 2. Any person working in
| this agency is banned for life to work in the private data
| sector for life (it better be lucrative to work there). 3. ...
| perhaps fill any loopholes you see here as you move along ...
| (along with percentage of revenue punishments for each loophole
| used first time)
| dwaite wrote:
| > I think we need a regulation 1. Any personal images/data
| sent to cloud need a FDA approval. (FDA = Federal Data
| Administration)
|
| So not just new regulation, but an entirely new regulatory
| body. Also, the Food and Drug Administration will have to
| change their name to something else.
| tzs wrote:
| > 2. Any person working in this agency is banned for life to
| work in the private data sector for life (it better be
| lucrative to work there).
|
| What about the other way around? Can someone who works in the
| private data sector leave and go to work for the agency?
| birdyrooster wrote:
| The summary executions will continue until total privacy is
| achieved.
| 542458 wrote:
| Please don't take the following as an endorsement of Bambu.
|
| > What benefit does "cloud" offer a 3d printer?
|
| A large print can take 24 hours or more. Offering the ability
| to walk away and check-in and issue commands remotely is useful
| to people.
|
| (Yes, you shouldn't leave a printer unattended, but the basic
| reality is people do leave their printers unattended anyways.)
|
| > I'm leery of the whole "image recognition to spot errors"
| thing anyway.
|
| I don't think it's inconceivable that it could work well. The
| main issue being monitored for here is "has the print
| prematurely detached from the bed", which I'd imagine should be
| possible to reliably detect with a known camera, angle, and
| print characteristics.
| xeromal wrote:
| This right here. I have a crappy mono price 3d printer that
| I've hooked up to a belkin outlet that I can turn off. I
| point one of my cameras at it and check in on long prints and
| am able to cut the power if I notice a bad print job. It's
| pretty handy and helps me rest easy knowing I have one more
| way to prevent a fire.
| traverseda wrote:
| I think just cutting the power like that can lead to melt
| zone creep and nozzle clogs, especially with higher
| temperature filaments. If you're not experiencing that
| though it's probably fine. Maybe toggle the power on and
| off so the hotend fan continues to work.
| xeromal wrote:
| I only have the switch for when there's an emergency or a
| print is going crazy and I'm too far away to go fix it.
| Pretty much the last resort option. I've never even
| needed to use it
| regularfry wrote:
| > > I'm leery of the whole "image recognition to spot errors"
| thing anyway.
|
| > I don't think it's inconceivable that it could work well.
|
| It's been done before, although others with actual experience
| of Spaghetti Detective will have to chime in with whether it
| works _well_.
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