[HN Gopher] 2009scape
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       2009scape
        
       Author : OsrsNeedsf2P
       Score  : 246 points
       Date   : 2023-08-18 22:40 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (2009scape.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (2009scape.org)
        
       | 72736379 wrote:
       | Private servers like this (though for a different game) were my
       | first exposure to programming, free and open source software, and
       | eventually, computer science as a whole- when I eventually went
       | off to college I majored in computer science and had a great head
       | start in many of the practical/application courses.
       | 
       | I learned about versioning with SVN, OOP with Java, hacking
       | together websites and forums with PHP while in middle school.
       | Really fun times on the Internet.
        
         | dkdbejwi383 wrote:
         | Ultima Online?
        
           | 72736379 wrote:
           | Nope, was involved in the MapleStory private server scene.
        
             | darknavi wrote:
             | OdinMS was such a fun time. I too started programming
             | MapleStory private servers. Vana was my intro to C++ and as
             | I learned in Uni it made it so much more fun.
             | 
             | That and Minecraft modding with hMod and Bukkit.
        
               | 72736379 wrote:
               | If you frequented forums like RaGEZONE it's likely we've
               | ran into each other before!
        
             | bogwog wrote:
             | That's how I was introduced to SQL!
        
         | munk-a wrote:
         | I ended up cutting my teeth working on maintaining a MUD (that
         | sadly just recently went offline). I think gaming is a big draw
         | for tinkering and programming simply because how much time we
         | spent interacting with it and how (at the time at least) it was
         | very accessible to modify. A lot of what you're working on is
         | changing data values and plugin-style things rather than
         | getting bogged down in modeling and other much less
         | approachable aspects of the game.
         | 
         | I imagine you can't throw a rock in the HN crowd without
         | hitting someone who once worked on an EVE Online spreadsheet of
         | one disposition or another.
        
         | matheusmoreira wrote:
         | Same here. Open Tibia servers were the first code bases I
         | explored and tried to modify when I was a kid.
        
         | ThatPlayer wrote:
         | You've just reminded me of one of my learning experiences on my
         | private server. I implemented a HTTP server. It was very basic
         | but this was before I really learned about using libraries.
        
         | grubbs wrote:
         | Had a similar experience. I was a complete addict in High
         | School to late 90's Everquest. I believe the project was EQEmu
         | and I was able to spin up a local SQL server and run my own
         | private server. I had no idea what I was doing at the time but
         | I got it to work and was able to have friends join me...over my
         | dialup connection. Unreal at the time :)
        
       | bovermyer wrote:
       | I really appreciate the web design. That was a style that only
       | existed for about five years, give or take a year or two.
       | 
       | It makes me really nostalgic. But beyond that, that style of web
       | design has completely disappeared. It was expensive to make, not
       | particularly mobile-friendly, and only really favors one screen
       | resolution. But it was beautiful.
        
         | bobinux wrote:
         | They implemented it using float and etc. My nostalgia tears are
         | dropping
        
         | SnowProblem wrote:
         | Exactly. Here's Gamespot's homepage in 2007:
         | 
         | https://web.archive.org/web/20070228162159/http://www.gamesp...
         | 
         | Very similar. So much more personality than Gamespot today:
         | 
         | https://www.gamespot.com
         | 
         | But back then everyone viewed websites on desktop. Mobile if
         | supported was special-cased. It's the opposite now.
        
           | opportune wrote:
           | Modern designers would think it's terrible because it gives
           | you too much information, and suggest putting in way more
           | white space, hiding things under menu bars. I wish I was
           | being facetious but sadly it's a sincere statement.
           | 
           | Completely agree though. Information-heavy pages for desktop
           | consumption were wonderful. It truly feels like we've
           | regressed. Just loading that gamespot link honestly filled me
           | with an immense nostalgia for the web of 10-15 years ago
        
           | lelandfe wrote:
           | You call it personality, I call it gradient overload. Check
           | out the difference in content density, though.
        
             | bovermyer wrote:
             | Humor me for a moment. What decade did you go to high
             | school in?
        
               | lelandfe wrote:
               | I'm in my late 30s! Can't wait to see what condescension
               | comes next.
        
               | bovermyer wrote:
               | I didn't mean to sound condescending, I was genuinely
               | curious. I was wondering if there's a correlation between
               | age and aesthetics, but we're about the same age.
        
         | marginalia_nu wrote:
         | Back in the day it was just a table based layout though. It was
         | used for quite some time. I'd say the design first emerged
         | about 1998 and lasted until the smartphones came in 2010 or so.
         | 
         | It's surprisingly easy to make that sort of design if you use
         | the right tools. You just drew it in photoshop and sliced it up
         | and exported it as an HTML table, then you poked out the bits
         | where the content was supposed to go.
         | 
         | Doing it with CSS is a right pain in the ass though. I guess
         | that's why there are so many mono-colored rectangles in modern
         | web design.
        
           | Sharlin wrote:
           | These days it's actually pretty easy with CSS flexbox or
           | grid.
        
             | marginalia_nu wrote:
             | You can get the boxes in the right places, but you can't
             | style them in nearly the same way.
        
       | hoten wrote:
       | For some context, the Jagex reboot "Old School Runescape" (OSRS)
       | forked from a circa-2007 build of the game. It was apparently a
       | stroke of luck that they still had the source code.
       | 
       | Notably, the 2007 version was before huge changes to the game
       | that many original players disliked enough to stop playing. But
       | it was also before the HD version. So OSRS player have been stuck
       | with low quality graphics (however, a modder has recently fixed
       | that. There was some drama over this, Jagex tried to prevent the
       | mod from being allowed, but they backed off).
       | 
       | The OSRS version was also pre-neutering of PvP for real-word
       | currency purposes, which happened Dec 2007. I guess this
       | 2009scape would have a neutered Wilderness too. Or perhaps
       | they're making some editorial tweaks.
       | 
       | 2009 still predates many of the wild changes Jagex made that
       | eventually morphed into RS3. Some would be nice to have in OSRS
       | (mining/smithing was rehauled in a nice way, some new skills that
       | OSRS players wish they had like Dungeoneering are missing --- but
       | changes like "Evolution of Combat"[1] was a breaking point for
       | many). My understanding is that if they had found the source code
       | circa 2009, Jagex would have used that and OSRS players would
       | have enjoyed HD on day one.
       | 
       | Jagex has done a good job with OSRS, running it with just a few
       | people and heavily relying on community feedback in the form of
       | polling content updates. If something does not pass majority
       | opinion, it is not added to the game. They've added multiple new
       | quests, areas, and skilling options under this model, to the
       | point where OSRS is quite distinct from its circa-2007 seed. One
       | thing they can't seem to get consensus on though is a new skill -
       | every attempt I'm aware of has been downvoted by the community,
       | seemingly for reasons similar to "it would devalue my investment
       | in X skill".
       | 
       | [1] https://runescape.wiki/w/Evolution_of_Combat
        
         | memefrog wrote:
         | OSRS players have not been "stuck with low quality graphics".
         | The appeal of that version of the game is as a whole. It was
         | not _just_ "the version without the one later change that
         | wasn't liked". It was the version before the general change in
         | approach.
         | 
         | The big problem with the "HD" version was that it was
         | inconsistent. They couldn't update the whole world at once (or
         | chose not to) so they updated it in bits, and those bits often
         | felt really out of place compared to the much more cohesive
         | older style.
         | 
         | >2009 still predates many of the wild changes Jagex made that
         | eventually morphed into RS3. Some would be nice to have in OSRS
         | (mining/smithing was rehauled in a nice way, some new skills
         | that OSRS players wish they had like Dungeoneering are missing
         | --- but changes like "Evolution of Combat"[1] was a breaking
         | point for many). My understanding is that if they had found the
         | source code circa 2009, Jagex would have used that and OSRS
         | players would have enjoyed HD on day one.
         | 
         | Dungeoneering was a (pretty good) minigame forced into the
         | mould of a (pretty bad) skill for essentially no reason. The
         | mining/smithing rework was very recent and not at all good for
         | the game.
         | 
         | Contrary to the popular belief of people like you (who seem to
         | be the dominant voice on social media), the desire in the first
         | place for "2007scape" did not originate with JaGEx. It came
         | from a website very similar to this one, which aimed to
         | recreate a 2005 or 2006 version of the game. JaGEx saw this
         | desire and found the oldest copy of the RS2 source code they
         | could. It isn't that they would have gone _later_ if they could
         | have. They would have gone _earlier_ if they could have. Even
         | 2007 was the beginning of the end for the game. It was when it
         | started to morph further towards what it is like today: a
         | wholly unlikable game, the players of which are obsessed with
         | grinding to the maximum level in every skill. That 's not how
         | people played before they added the level 99 skillcapes in
         | 2006.
         | 
         | >Jagex has done a good job with OSRS, running it with just a
         | few people and heavily relying on community feedback in the
         | form of polling content updates.
         | 
         | This was true for the first few years but clearly isn't true
         | today. They add a lot of content to the game now.
         | 
         | >If something does not pass majority opinion, it is not added
         | to the game. They've added multiple new quests, areas, and
         | skilling options under this model, to the point where OSRS is
         | quite distinct from its circa-2007 seed. One thing they can't
         | seem to get consensus on though is a new skill - every attempt
         | I'm aware of has been downvoted by the community, seemingly for
         | reasons similar to "it would devalue my investment in X skill".
         | 
         | This is evidence that the game is nothing like it was in 2007.
         | Back then, people loved new skills and the idea of "devaluing
         | my investment" just didn't exist. The awful "xp waste"/"grind"
         | mentality of players today is what has driven a lot of players
         | away from the game. It's this sort of mentality where you
         | cannot have a valid opinion on the game unless you're at
         | "endgame" and have basically maximum levels in every skill.
         | That is a World of Warcraft/Everquest-style mentality. "The
         | game starts at endgame". "The game is about raiding and killing
         | bosses". Just not what RS was originally about at all.
         | 
         | Frankly they've changed the game so much since the 2014 revival
         | of "2007"-scape that it is more different today than RS3 was
         | from 2007scape in 2014. And not for the better.
        
           | hoten wrote:
           | > OSRS players have not been "stuck with low quality
           | graphics". The appeal of that version of the game is as a
           | whole. It was not just "the version without the one later
           | change that wasn't liked". It was the version before the
           | general change in approach.
           | 
           | Sure, it's important to note that OSRS players are not a
           | monolith, and people differ on which aspects of the more
           | modern game they disliked. As I recall, HD was an optional
           | toggle. So yes, all OSRS players indeed are "stuck" with the
           | older graphics - the presence of HD would not mean players
           | with a nostalgia for the 2007-era graphics would be left out
           | in the cold. Anecdotally everyone I know lauded the HD
           | upgrade at the time, but I get it wasn't perfect.
           | 
           | > Dungeoneering was a (pretty good) minigame forced into the
           | mould of a (pretty bad) skill for essentially no reason. The
           | mining/smithing rework was very recent and not at all good
           | for the game.
           | 
           | Admittedly I've only seen some commentary from OSRS youtubers
           | about the mining update, and I came away from that thinking
           | the changed mechanics sounded desirable. I've no direct
           | experience.
        
           | insanitybit wrote:
           | I wonder what the impact of social media has been.
           | 
           | 1. I was on Runscape in the early 2000s. There was no
           | Twitter, Facebook was very new and not really that popular,
           | and nothing else existed. Like, I think _Gaia_ was one of the
           | more popular forums I knew of lol. That meant that Runescape
           | was actually a highly social experience - it 's insane the
           | kinds of relationships I built as a 14-18 year old who played
           | the game somewhat obsessively. Staying up all night, meeting
           | strangers. Not actually "playing" the game - like, that was
           | something to do for fun, but so much of it was _hanging out_
           | with people.
           | 
           | With social media I get a lot of that from other sites. And
           | in general I don't need it as much as I'm not staying up
           | until 4am anymore lol but man it was something else to
           | socialize through a "forum" like Runescape. Even the organic
           | fact that people could "overhear" your conversations just
           | because they were near you in the game led to so many funny
           | "meet cutes", for lack of a better term.
           | 
           | 2. The other side of social media influence is that there's a
           | lot more flexing, memeing, and appealing to masses. When I
           | played Runescape it was like... a shameful thing lol, I
           | literally told almost no one at school, and when it came up
           | it was kind of a secret between the few kids who played. It
           | was lame, period , and we did not want to be thought of as
           | lame. No way in hell would I have been posting online about
           | it, nor was there any place to post about it like Reddit -
           | you either posted on the RS boards (probably not tho), or in
           | your clan's custom forum that someone set up.
           | 
           | But now, re (2), there's a lot more room to posture. You can
           | brag way more about your 99s, show them off, show off what
           | you're doing etc. And I think that probably leads to a lot
           | more of the 'grind', which, again (1) was not the point. The
           | point was to run through the wild with your friends at 4am
           | and get scared when pkers came after you and you'd lose a
           | bunch of your shit but who cares. The money we made was
           | genuinely just to fuel those good times. No one actually
           | thought they were going to be the next Zezima - I say this as
           | someone who had multiple 99s, it was mostly just for fun. And
           | it's interesting that you bring up the capes - all of my 99s
           | were after the capes, they were definitely a part of the
           | ceremony.
           | 
           | Viewing RS as a game with an "endgame" or as a game where the
           | points matter is just sort of baffling to me and it's a bit
           | of a shame to me that that's where it apparently has gone.
        
             | tsunagatta wrote:
             | > Not actually "playing" the game - like, that was
             | something to do for fun, but so much of it was hanging out
             | with people.
             | 
             | I think probably far too much about how social media (or,
             | in a broader sense, the mass adoption of the internet) has
             | affected online games like this, and I was really happy to
             | see your point here since this is a thought I've had a lot,
             | but few people seem to understand what I mean when I try to
             | bring it up! I vividly remember a time where people used to
             | just _talk_ in online games a lot more, whereas now most
             | online games feel sorta dead (if they even have a chat
             | option) -- and I suspect that 's due to the fact that
             | people are either A) playing with people they already know
             | from real life and don't see any reason to communicate with
             | anyone else, or B) only communicating with the community on
             | platforms like Reddit, in an asynchronous, "flex"-based
             | way. Imo, that shift is the major reason online games have
             | essentially died out except in the form of competitive
             | multiplayer with ephemeral lobbies.
             | 
             | And I've noticed that when I try to explain how things were
             | to people who weren't online before the shift happened,
             | they can't even picture what it was like, or why it was
             | fun. It's so odd to me that that entire way of interaction
             | has just... disappeared.
        
               | spicymapotofu wrote:
               | The more things change, the more they stay the same. In
               | 07 I made close friendships on the rs servers, enough
               | that my friends would ask where I was if I took a few
               | days. We reconnected years later, and if I was less
               | asocial we could've met irl. I've been playing 07scape
               | again and while I found a fun clan chat, I've been
               | invited to several others by people I'm chatting with in
               | public, due to just being prosocial and maybe well-
               | adjusted.
               | 
               | My point is, maybe people have a higher barrier to entry
               | for 'online friendship', now, as adults, but at least in
               | this same game, people still reach our and form bonds
               | despite there being little in-game support for that
               | socialization. Many still recognize that it's the funny
               | yellow text that touches the heart, and not the count of
               | exp in stats.
        
               | Beldin wrote:
               | I hadn't considered it like that, but that was pretty
               | much how I experienced MUDding. I got into it and wanted
               | to level up, do quests, and explore. Before hitting level
               | 20 (out of 100, basically barely out of newbie status), I
               | stopped caring about progress - but spent even more time
               | there.
               | 
               | I tried going back once, but without spending time to
               | build connections with other players, it wasn't fun.
               | Didn't quite realise that till I read your comment
               | though.
        
               | memefrog wrote:
               | There has been a similar - but different - effect on
               | games that were traditionally server-based like FPS
               | games. Games where once you would join the same little
               | deathmatch server, which had its own community and
               | culture? Now you discuss the game on reddit (ew) and play
               | MatchMaking against everyone else on your continent. You
               | will never see those players again, ever, unless you're
               | on a tiny server like the Australian one.
        
               | Dalewyn wrote:
               | >I vividly remember a time where people used to just talk
               | in online games a lot more
               | 
               | I play(ed) Ragnarok Online, and some of my fondest
               | memories are logging into one of my characters, going
               | into a PVP map, and then just sit around and talk shit
               | with friends I made there.
               | 
               | We would just sit and talk there, in the PVP map, and
               | when someone who didn't get the memo stopped by to fight
               | we'd collectively kick his ass out and then go back to
               | talking. Some of them would get the memo and come back,
               | then just sit down and join in and bam: New friend made.
               | 
               | Those were some good times.
        
             | hypercube33 wrote:
             | I never played RuneScape but man the talk about using it as
             | a social platform brings memories back. Quake 2, Tribes 2,
             | The Palace Chat, First star online (the PC thing that was
             | like an open clone of Zelda) and a few others. I miss the
             | community and shenanigans and overall super supportive
             | friendly people.
        
               | ramses0 wrote:
               | Tribes 2 holds a special place in that they effectively
               | built a proto-internet inside the game client.
               | 
               | It shipped with user-accounts, IRC (chat), newsgroups
               | (forums), email (direct messages), LDAP
               | (groups/clans/tribes), integrated voice, basically all
               | the components of the internet except calendaring, and if
               | you call CD-Keys like client certs... we'll, just
               | impressive for any game and especially a game of the 2002
               | era.
        
             | livueta wrote:
             | Slight quibble: that flex culture you and the parent
             | discuss, embodied by going for 99s/200ms pre-skillcapes,
             | definitely existed; you just weren't privy to it. Places
             | like the tip.it forums were full of flex - remember those
             | autogenerated stats signatures? - but that was its own
             | little niche, not the dominant culture. You're probably
             | right that social media amplified that dynamic a lot, but
             | people like Zarfot and clans like DivinationX[0] were all
             | about no xp waste well before that ethos hit the
             | mainstream. It came from somewhere, rather than appearing
             | fully formed from a seashell.
             | 
             | I think you both have good points around how a monoculture
             | makes the game less rich and more theme-park-MMO-ish. I
             | always felt that one of the things that helped it feel a
             | bit more like a world simulator and a bit less like a game
             | was the diversity of ways in which people interacted with
             | the game. Wanna be the guy who only farms herbs? Knock
             | yourself out, the game won't stop you and make you go save
             | the world or whatever. When everyone has the same goal
             | (which when I still played I thought of as the slayer-
             | ironman industrial complex rather than no xp waste) you
             | lose that and are back to the inherent absurdity of 50
             | million different Chosen Ones. It's just a little ironic
             | that in a "no wrong way to play, do it for fun" kind of
             | take you're calling out a wrong way to play.
             | 
             | Disclaimer: obviously very biased; multiply maxed
             | 
             | [0] I wanna say '06 but can't find forum archives and the
             | swiftirc timestamps got reset at some point
        
             | tylercrompton wrote:
             | You so well describe why I played RS back in those days. I
             | tried getting back into it a few years ago and it just
             | didn't feel the same without my friends. But I never
             | realized why it felt different until I read your comment.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | Ferret7446 wrote:
         | They charge so much and do so little, they better do a good job
         | with it. Or rather, not doing anything is a very low bar to be
         | defined as a "good job".
         | 
         | (I'm aware subscription includes RS3, but the OSRS playerbase
         | far eclipses RS3. You are paying for OSRS with RS3 as a cherry
         | on top, not the other way around. Also, RS3 is funded with
         | microtransactions.)
        
         | lolinder wrote:
         | > One thing they can't seem to get consensus on though is a new
         | skill - every attempt I'm aware of has been downvoted by the
         | community, seemingly for reasons similar to "it would devalue
         | my investment in X skill".
         | 
         | Sailing recently got enough votes that they've started
         | development on it:
         | 
         | https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Sailing
         | 
         | I suppose it could still get shut down by the community later.
        
           | hoten wrote:
           | Oh that's exciting! Thanks for sharing. I might play a bit
           | more when that is released.
           | 
           | I just pulled up my OSRS Google doc "backlog" and it's a few
           | pages of things tracking what I should do next. The game
           | really scratches that itch of crossing items off a TODO list.
        
         | kllvql wrote:
         | One small additional point. I completely agree that Jagex has
         | done a great job maintaining OSRS. Polls for changes to OSRS
         | typically require 70% of votes to pass[1] instead of a simple
         | majority. This is part of the reason why it is difficult to get
         | major changes like new skills added to the game.
         | 
         | As a long-time player, I really enjoy the conservatism this
         | leads to in the evolution of the game. It is great to be able
         | to pick up my character after a year or two off and have a very
         | similar experience (+/- a few quality of life updates I'm
         | likely to appreciate).
         | 
         | [1] https://oldschool.runescape.wiki/w/Polls
        
       | themodelplumber wrote:
       | Oh fun, I love discovering new game projects like that.
       | 
       | I'm curious, let's say I've only played like Crawl down to level
       | 7, and some Torchlight II. What's the daily routine / grind /
       | goal look like in this kind of game? It seems to include some
       | social or community aspects? Are those part of the game itself
       | or?
       | 
       | (And, just as a veteran web designer, can I say that I _love_
       | seeing that good old textured website style again. Obvious
       | Voronoi mathematics included. :-) Smoking hot stuff right there
       | in historical context, but also even in broader design-principles
       | terms...not even joking. Crucify me on those wrought-iron headers
       | if you wish)
       | 
       | (There's a 2011scape too...? What is this?)
        
         | 72736379 wrote:
         | This is a "private server" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priva
         | te_server#Private_Servers...) for a version of RuneScape from
         | 2009.
        
           | themodelplumber wrote:
           | Thanks, so it seems like it's a community-chat focused game
           | in some ways? Do people just wander in and play solo too?
        
             | calvinmorrison wrote:
             | There's a large amount of osrs that play "ironman" myself
             | included which prohibits interacting with the economy at
             | all.
             | 
             | This is a trade off for me because I would prefer 2006scape
             | or pre market place economy where you had to buy and sell
             | manually by sitting in an area and trade. Automated trading
             | economy made a lot of the content of the game easy to cheat
             | because a good deal of the Quests and such are really just
             | running around picking up obscure items. With the exchange
             | and the wiki its practically ez scape.
        
             | squeaky-clean wrote:
             | It's a very solo friendly MMO. Private servers are usually
             | for people who want changes to the official game (or
             | removal of changes), and sometimes just to avoid paying
             | subscription fees. This one is aiming to replicate the
             | official state of the game as it was in 2009.
             | 
             | It's mostly a "grind" sort of game with simplistic combat.
             | It's pretty relaxing for the most part, though it does have
             | some tense PvP elements if you enter into some special
             | areas. You can definitely play it fully focused, but most
             | people would conside it a "Second Monitor" game. i.e. You
             | can watch YouTube or do work and keep old-school RuneScape
             | active on a second screen, interacting every minute or so.
        
       | detuks wrote:
       | Shameless plug: Runescape JS, WASM, webgl client -
       | https://play.rsps.app Built it a while ago. Doable for other
       | bases as well
       | 
       | P.S. https://github.com/reinismu/runescape-web-client-377 Souce
       | code for one of my first ports
        
         | ano224400 wrote:
         | This is very cool. Love the default builds. I tried from my
         | mobile browser and swiftly got PKed :) Thanks for sharing.
        
         | OsrsNeedsf2P wrote:
         | I played this back when it was a duel arena staking thing.
         | Loved the idea, but it never took off. You should invest more
         | time into it!
        
         | detuks wrote:
         | Forgot to mention https://github.com/reinismu/runescape-web-
         | client-377 Source code for one of my first ports
        
       | s5300 wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | fallat wrote:
       | I'd love to see Jagex open source OSRS as a business decision to
       | keep the game alive forever, and for leveraging the dedicated
       | community.
       | 
       | Now, I said open source, but that doesn't mean free. Even if the
       | source was available, it would make the most sense if they kept
       | it "non-free", as in, no commercial usage of the source may be
       | allowed.
       | 
       | People are free to run their own servers, but the Jagex ones will
       | be "blessed".
       | 
       | The only problem I see is if some group in a country outside of
       | IP legality were to take it and try to monetize it.
       | 
       | Alternatively I hope one day Jagex has a "hail mary" and releases
       | the source when they think the game is considered commercially
       | dead.
        
         | memefrog wrote:
         | 'Open source' and 'free (as in speech)' are, in the software
         | context, synonyms. It is incoherent to say 'open source but
         | non-commercial'.
        
           | gcau wrote:
           | I disagree. You're basically saying, "open source code isn't
           | open-source". There's nothing incoherent about what they
           | said.
        
             | NavinF wrote:
             | "Licenses which only permit non-commercial redistribution
             | or modification of the source code for personal use only
             | are generally not considered as open-source licenses.
             | However, open-source licenses may have some restrictions,
             | particularly regarding the expression of respect to the
             | origin of software, such as a requirement to preserve the
             | name of the authors and a copyright statement within the
             | code, or a requirement to redistribute the licensed
             | software only under the same license (as in a copyleft
             | license)"
             | 
             | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source
             | 
             | "No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor
             | 
             | The license must not restrict anyone from making use of the
             | program in a specific field of endeavor. For example, it
             | may not restrict the program from being used in a business,
             | or from being used for genetic research"
             | 
             | https://opensource.org/osd/
             | 
             | If you don't allow commercial use, your code is "source-
             | available", not "open source"
             | 
             | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-available_software
        
               | Kiro wrote:
               | Common speak disagrees with you and that's all that
               | matters.
        
               | memefrog wrote:
               | No, it doesn't. Everyone knows what 'open source' means:
               | what the open source definition says. Literally the
               | *only* place on the Internet where people pretend this
               | isn't true is HN. I have never seen anyone suggest that
               | 'open source' means anything else anywhere else.
        
               | gcau wrote:
               | I have the exact opposite experience.
        
               | gcau wrote:
               | I just disagree and use a different definition of open
               | source than you/your sources (many people share my
               | definition, mind you). If the source is open, its open-
               | source. It can be free, commercial, or have any license.
               | I feel like people with the other definition of OS, do it
               | because they have a vendetta against companies that open-
               | source code with a non-free license.
        
               | memefrog wrote:
               | >I feel like people with the other definition of OS, do
               | it because they have a vendetta against companies that
               | open-source code with a non-free license.
               | 
               | No. It is because that's what the term means and has
               | *ALWAYS* meant. You don't get to just turn up and change
               | the definition of a term that has been fixed and useful
               | as a term for _decades_. This isn 't the evolution of
               | language. It's just you ignorantly being unaware of the
               | actual definition and using your own.
        
               | gcau wrote:
               | I can and I am.
        
             | memefrog wrote:
             | No, I am saying open source code is open source. Open
             | source has had an established, fixed definition for
             | decades. It was coined for a specific purpose to represent
             | a particular category of software licence.
             | 
             | You are doing a disservice to anyone reading what you write
             | if you use a term with a fixed, established definition to
             | mean something completely different without signalling that
             | you are doing so. Language is for communication.
        
               | Kiro wrote:
               | It doesn't matter. Your definition is legacy and not what
               | open source refers to in common speak.
        
               | memefrog wrote:
               | I don't know what 'your definition is legacy' means.
               | Could you try to speak English?
               | 
               | 'Open source' has meant the same thing for decades. Its
               | meaning has not changed.
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | Kiro wrote:
               | > Could you try to speak English?
               | 
               | Nice way to invalidate any current or future arguments
               | you may have.
        
           | TZubiri wrote:
           | Are you deliberately invoking the Stallman acolytes?
        
           | ben_w wrote:
           | CC-NC isn't OS for you?
        
         | hoten wrote:
         | Not the same, but Jagex has embraced (probably because they
         | really had no choice) the 3p client "RuneLite". There is an
         | understanding between Jagex and that community that the client
         | is blessed, but only if they steer clear of certain features -
         | like things that would reduce how much you have to interact
         | with UI in the game, such as re-ordering items in the
         | Construction right-click menu for convenience.
        
           | blairbeckwith wrote:
           | TIL that this is why I couldn't configure the Menu Item
           | Swapper or whatever last week when I was leveling
           | Construction with oak larders. I wonder what makes
           | construction a special case here vs, say, allowing one click
           | dropping of collected resources.
        
       | smohare wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | christofosho wrote:
       | Old RuneScape private servers like Dodian, Ub3r server, these got
       | me started on my programming journey. Gotta throw out a thank you
       | to Winten, and all the folks there. After playing RuneScape since
       | 2001, it is great to see progress continues. Projects like
       | https://rsc.vet keep the oldest version alive. RuneScape lead me
       | to a Software career! ( - Formerly "Kankles" alias)
        
       | KyleBerezin wrote:
       | I'm happy to see Jagex is still around to this day. They used to
       | make a lot of free games that you could play in the browser. Pre-
       | runescape, I wasted many hours playing games like vertigo and
       | flea circus. It makes me happy to see the company is still alive
       | and well, though it probably has been through many changes.
        
       | david_shi wrote:
       | How does this server prevent bots and spam? Curious if that's
       | built into the project.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | joshstrange wrote:
       | It seems the UI Scale option doesn't work on Mac? I tried this
       | repo [0] but it wasn't launching correctly. Also HD mode doesn't
       | work on Mac.
       | 
       | I then installed Ubuntu (arm server, then installed desktop) via
       | UTM and installed 2009scape via flatpack and was able to scale
       | the UI up but still no HD mode. Scaling is better than nothing
       | even if I have to run a VM but I wish I could run HD. I can't
       | find much info about this online unfortunately other than the FAQ
       | saying you need java 11 (the flatpack installed that) and that it
       | doesn't work on Mac.
       | 
       | [0] https://github.com/downthecrop/2009Scape-macOS-HD
        
       | insanitybit wrote:
       | Absolutely slamming the nostalgia region of my brain.
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNW9TAwImBY
       | 
       | Something very deep inside of me is triggered by Runescape. I
       | think staying up all night for days in a row playing just
       | permanently ingrained certain emotions of my teenage self, and
       | nothing lets me access them the way Runescape does.
        
         | taswellian wrote:
         | I feel the same way... happy and sad at the same time. Great
         | music!
        
       | macromagnon wrote:
       | I still remember when notes/certificates to allow stacking any
       | items came out but you could only do one inventory at a time at
       | an npc.
       | 
       | Eventually (not sure how long after) you could just toggle the
       | option at the bank.
       | 
       | Talk about qol improvements.
        
       | samanator wrote:
       | Source code for the server:
       | 
       | https://gitlab.com/2009scape/2009scape
        
       | dumbaccount123 wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | EarthLaunch wrote:
       | I'm making a UO inspired MMO and have been wanting to play more
       | MMOs lately. Anyone similar up for experimenting with RS, WoW HC,
       | Zenith, LiF, MO, UO player servers, or anything? Hit me up!
        
         | matheusmoreira wrote:
         | Check out Tibia as well. Online since the 90s.
        
       | mikedelago wrote:
       | Cool, I didn't realize Runescape private servers were a thing
       | still.
       | 
       | I contribute to AzerothCore[0] pretty regularly. There's a lot of
       | improvements that could be made, but it's overall fun and the
       | majority of people who frequent their Discord are friendly
       | enough.
       | 
       | [0] https://github.com/azerothcore/azerothcore-wotlk
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | kingkongjaffa wrote:
       | My 2 cents is that evolution of combat is good actually, up to a
       | point. Because the apm and tick rate are limited, getting good
       | after a certain point means memorizing an exact rotation,
       | learning keyboard shortcuts, memorizing the boss mechanics to
       | know when to switch to a shield and res or whatever. Point being
       | it's not really fun. After a while any minor mistake on a
       | challenging boss screws you up really bad.
        
         | parimal7 wrote:
         | EOC has no place in Runescape which has a global tick system.
         | Ability usage feels sluggish compared to other games.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | Multicomp wrote:
       | I am seriously tempted by a project like this. They even have a
       | linux client!
       | 
       | The pinnacle of my Runescape days was just after they opened the
       | Grand Exchange. That was around the time I realized that if I
       | didn't stop playing this game every night, I'd have no life, so I
       | began the process of walking away.
       | 
       | The fact that I lost my login (pre-password manager days) had
       | nothing to do with me making that wise decision, nor the fact
       | that I still don't have a life.
        
         | sph wrote:
         | I decided there are worse thing I can waste my time on, so a
         | few years ago I installed Old School Runescape for the first
         | time and made an Ironman character (you can use banks but you
         | can't trade with players, so you have to do all the content
         | yourself), after falling in love with the adventures of
         | Swampletics.
         | 
         | https://youtu.be/O9wG5jGP32M
         | 
         | I play a couple hours a week, and I love it. It is a game that
         | will have content for me to do for the next decade, and lately
         | the dev activity and player count have picked up. It is
         | incredible to see a 20 years old game to be the third most
         | played MMO in the world.
         | 
         | As in game as in life, progress is a slow grind, but put in the
         | effort, and you get rewarded for it.. eventually.
        
         | csours wrote:
         | selling unids 400
         | 
         | How much did unids sell for?
         | 
         | I've thought about a t-shirt that says "selling unids" just to
         | see how many people get it
         | 
         | ----
         | 
         | Unids are Unidentified Herbs, an item since removed from RS.
         | Processing Unids was a relatively fast and very repeatable way
         | to get Herblore experience.
        
           | maxdamantus wrote:
           | Pretty sure I used to buy them for 1k each. Identified
           | Ranarrs would sell for around 7k each, and I think prayer
           | potions (4) would sell at a slight profit for 9k. I guess the
           | lack of "make X" and automatic decanting made skilling
           | actually profitable.
           | 
           | EDIT: actually, I think the 1k price was probably limited to
           | herbs above a certain level. It was common practice to buy
           | noted herbs above a certain level and keep your inventory
           | full with other items to block trades with unidentified Guam
           | leaves.
           | 
           | Here's another activity that will probably never exist again:
           | Law running. I remember both being a runner and a crafter.
        
             | robrtsql wrote:
             | > Here's another activity that will probably never exist
             | again: Law running. I remember both being a runner and a
             | crafter.
             | 
             | I'm out of the loop (I tried 2007scape but don't play it
             | enough to be in the know). Is it because some other faster
             | way of leveling Runecrafting has become available?
        
               | maxdamantus wrote:
               | In modern OSRS I believe the main way of training
               | Runecrafting is through the Ourania altar, and at higher
               | levels the Soul/Blood altars, both OSRS-specific (I've
               | used both as an Ironman player, but haven't played in the
               | last few years, so not familiar with newer updates).
               | 
               | I suspect Law crafting (with runners) would still be more
               | XP per hour, but I think the player dynamics are quite
               | different nowadays. You used to spend a lot of time at
               | the start trying out various things that are no longer
               | "efficient" (another thing I remember doing was mining
               | rune essence--I didn't do that at all in OSRS). I think
               | it's because of a combination of things, like the age of
               | players (younger people might not be as good at
               | strategising), visibility through social media (eg,
               | Twitch/Reddit) about how to play the game "properly", and
               | modern updates that make some of the tedious tasks
               | unnecessary (in Ironman, I think I got my rune essence
               | from newer PvM and the "Temple Trekking" minigame). For
               | all of these reasons, you don't end up with people that
               | would be willing to queue to trade their time for someone
               | else's runecrafting experience and a couple of Law runes.
        
               | eigenket wrote:
               | I think that most people these days train runecrafting
               | with the "guardians of the rift" minigame. At least at
               | lower levels. It adds some rewards and makes it somewhat
               | less tedious.
        
               | [deleted]
        
       | koryk wrote:
       | I would love if someone forks this and turns it into an AI
       | competition. Like that social network only for bots, this would
       | be a runescape server only for bots.
        
         | toasteros wrote:
         | OpenRSC[1] has two servers that are dedicated to botting.
         | 
         | [1] https://rsc.vet/
        
         | branon wrote:
         | There's a similar project where the intent is to automate the
         | game - https://github.com/dginovker/2006rebotted
         | 
         | I think 2009scape itself might even have some automation-
         | focused servers as well
        
           | TZubiri wrote:
           | As a server focused on HQ graphics, botting doesn't quite fit
           | with the values.
        
         | hoten wrote:
         | With or without random events? :)
        
           | dharmab wrote:
           | I was using bots that could handle random events way back in
           | 2003 or so.
        
       | moomoo11 wrote:
       | RuneScape taught me (as a kid about two decades ago) some very
       | essential life lessons.
       | 
       | Who can I trust? How do I empower my team? What is the best way
       | to turn fear and anxiety into success and glory?
       | 
       | I was scammed around 10 years old and I remember crying lol. But
       | it also motivated me to play the game differently to focus on
       | market factors and make all that money plus way more.
       | 
       | I remember being 11 with a dozen or so of the boys going into the
       | deep wilderness with the boys taking on high level players as a
       | group. We all had our roles and jobs. I recently heard the
       | ancient magick ice barrage sound and it brought back those
       | memories. We made so much money fighting in the wilderness, and
       | some time later we got into the fishing and runes businesses. we
       | had running business of lobsters, nature and law runes and it was
       | way more lucrative than risking a lot in the wilderness.
       | 
       | I quit just after the grand exchange was implemented like 2008.
       | Imo it was the end for me and I have never really played video
       | games like that ever since. Probably never will since I'm an
       | adult now and real life is way more fun. But the grand exchange
       | really killed the "social" aspect of that game. You no longer
       | needed to interact with others. The in game market and economy
       | were basically removed. There was no longer a reason to interact
       | with people in the game as everything became on demand.
       | 
       | Anyway this brought back some great childhood memories.
        
         | TZubiri wrote:
         | But the grand exchange really killed the "social" aspect of
         | that game.
         | 
         | RIP The Falador and Varrock markets
         | 
         | There were spots dedicated to certain items, and this wasn't
         | programmed in the game, it was ingrained in the folklore of the
         | community.
        
       | Tyluur wrote:
       | Personally I prefer 2011scape but this is good too.
        
       | nicechianti wrote:
       | [dead]
        
       | impulser_ wrote:
       | Can't believe Runescape private server are still a thing after 18
       | years. This is what got me into programming. I remember working
       | with the first version back in early 2006 I believe it was called
       | winterlove. You couldn't even play multiplayer. Then someone got
       | multiplayer to work, I think that was called blakescape, then
       | there was cheezscape and whitescape which became the popular
       | versions to use because they came with a lot of content like
       | combat ect.
       | 
       | All of the coding I did was done using notepad on Windows lol.
       | 
       | I remember when the major version this server is based on
       | 470-500+ versions which is when they updated the graphics. We
       | spent days trying to be the first one to get a working server and
       | client. You had to mod the client and walk around the game to
       | collect map data to be able to load the map on private server.
       | 
       | The most fun times I had programing to this day.
        
         | squeaky-clean wrote:
         | A friend of mine in college made about $500~1000/mo running
         | some Runescape private servers with subscriptions. He hosted a
         | few different types of servers, but I know his most profitable
         | one allowed players to buy "chests". Basically modern-day loot
         | boxes with random high level gear. He got the idea from Korean
         | MMOs at the time. No idea what he's up to nowadays.
        
           | impulser_ wrote:
           | Back when the economy in RS wasn't bad, the play I did would
           | be to run an RSPS server and sell items, stats, ect. in it
           | for gold in actual Runescape and then sell that gold for
           | actual money. 1m was like a little over 1$ back then.
        
         | Tyluur wrote:
         | Same here, the RSPS communities paved the way for lots of us.
        
         | scrapcode wrote:
         | I never really got into Runescape but I did start programming
         | in PHP with notepad and attribute a very accurate "tab pinky"
         | to those long nights. If I remember correctly, Notepad was the
         | only thing I directly edit remote files in using CuteFTP, so I
         | think that's why I used it at the time as I learned by editing
         | existing "scripts." Good times.
        
         | Shekelphile wrote:
         | Permabanned from r-s gang wya?
         | 
         | I miss laughing at 2speced Tyler and Nikki not actually being a
         | girl wasn't much of a surprise.
        
           | iamricks wrote:
           | Tyler and Blurr were legendary in the RSPS scene, 2speced was
           | such a wellmade and maintained RSPS. I wonder where they are
           | now.
        
           | sph wrote:
           | It is known that in Runescape "girl" = "Guy In Real Life"
        
             | Shekelphile wrote:
             | r-s =/= rs (runescape)
        
         | ThatPlayer wrote:
         | I also got into programming like this. I even remember working
         | with whitefang, the creator of whitescape, to try and build a
         | 377 server when everyone was on 317. I don't remember if that
         | attempt ever got anywhere though.
         | 
         | I think what you're describing with all the code bases is why I
         | lost interest. It felt like everyone was just doing their own
         | thing without any collaboration. Unlike say World of Warcraft
         | servers where everyone used MaNGOS. I hope it's better now
        
           | veave wrote:
           | I'm into the wow emu world and it really isn't. There are
           | several forks of mangos and people still don't share their
           | changes.
        
             | ThatPlayer wrote:
             | I meant about 15 years ago when I believe it was mangos and
             | scriptdev2. Compared to runescape servers which I don't
             | think any server software even had a CVS/SVN repo. It was
             | just zip downloads on rapidshare on a downloads sub-forum
             | with zero expectation of there ever being an update.
             | 
             | In fact it looks like those forums are still up, and still
             | has all the old posts. I found an aggregate list from 2008
             | with 300+ (dead) links to various releases. And this was
             | before multiple clients versions were even a thing. There
             | were only 317 servers, which still seem to be very popular
             | today.
        
             | mikedelago wrote:
             | I'm also in wow emu world and I agree. Maintainers seem to
             | be quite picky with accepting changes.
             | 
             | there's also so many weird quirks to the projects, it's
             | basically what keeps me coming back.
        
         | nickzelei wrote:
         | I played a lot of moparscape back in the day. Was a fun
         | community of people. Learned a lot standing up my own server
         | and getting it listed on their registry for others to join.
        
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