[HN Gopher] The Plumber Problem
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The Plumber Problem
        
       Author : zdw
       Score  : 58 points
       Date   : 2023-08-18 17:26 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (hypercritical.co)
 (TXT) w3m dump (hypercritical.co)
        
       | etchalon wrote:
       | This is a much larger issue than just a media related one.
       | 
       | There's a friend I've had for years. He's a physicist. I always
       | ask him questions about physics. I've often referred to him as
       | the smartest guy I know.
       | 
       | I have another friend, also a physicist. Less accomplished, but
       | just as smart. Friend 2 hates Friend 1. Calls him an idiot. I
       | generally dismissed it as arrogance or jealously.
       | 
       | Then, a few years ago, Friend 1 told me he'd been doing a lot of
       | Python lately. I use Python a lot. Have for 15 years.
       | 
       | Over a group dinner, he was explaining a problem he was facing,
       | specifically he was explaining how Python handles dictionaries.
       | It was ... very wrong. But he sounded like he REALLY knew what he
       | was talking about.
       | 
       | It occurred to me that maybe Friend 2 was right all along. Friend
       | 1 isn't that smart. He seems smart to me because I don't know
       | physics. He's good at saying things that sound right. Maybe they
       | are sometimes. But maybe they aren't sometimes, and it was that
       | "sometimes he's wrong" thing Friend 2 picked up on, just like I
       | picked up on the Python stuff.
       | 
       | Media, journalism, etc is likely the same way. 90% of the story
       | can be right, or technically accurate, but if 1 fact is wrong,
       | and you KNOW that fact, it's going to bother you. A lot, and will
       | shade your opinion of everything else.
        
         | TillE wrote:
         | This is a really common trap that smart people fall into,
         | thinking that just because you know everything about one field,
         | your huge brain must be able to quickly understand just about
         | anything.
        
           | WalterBright wrote:
           | I've adroitly avoided that trap by understanding just about
           | everything.
        
       | stickfigure wrote:
       | Funny, I got plumber-problem'd by this article.
       | 
       | > _In Speed 2, a plot point involves a laden oil tanker about to
       | collide explosively. My wife, native to a major oil port city,
       | couldn't follow the plot because she could tell the tanker was
       | empty just by looking at it, so she didn't understand why
       | everyone was saying it would explode._
       | 
       | Wait a minute. Full oil tanks don't explode, but empty oil tanks
       | full of hydrocarbon vapor do.
        
         | philsnow wrote:
         | Hey! You got your Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis [0] in our Gell-Mann
         | Amnesia!
         | 
         | [0]
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Lee_Whorf#Career_in_f...
        
       | ballenf wrote:
       | The technical faults with movies don't bother me anymore, because
       | my expectations are basically zero.
       | 
       | What bothers me immensely more is the same but with human
       | choices, motivations and character. There's no reason to try to
       | understand characters as they increasingly make the most
       | superficial or arbitrary decisions, pulled along by plot
       | necessities rather than driving the story. The humans in recent
       | movies feel like window dressing or set design.
        
         | dbrueck wrote:
         | Yes, this drives me crazy. I particularly hate the trope where
         | the plot hinges on two characters having a huge
         | misunderstanding that would be resolved by a 5 second
         | conversation.
        
       | clarada wrote:
       | This applies to the real world as well. I've had a couple of
       | times when I've been closely involved in an event that was
       | covered in the national newspapers. Both times the stories were
       | presented with major factual inaccuracies and with clear bias.
       | 
       | I've brought this up in conversation a few times over the years
       | and quite often a similar experience was reported by others. Yet
       | everyone still seemed happy to trust the accuracy of the other
       | articles being reported.
        
         | tobr wrote:
         | This is the Gell-Mann amnesia effect mentioned in the post.
        
         | nvader wrote:
         | When people display this kind of blindness to real-world media
         | the term for it is https://theportal.wiki/wiki/The_Gell-
         | Mann_Amnesia_Effect
        
         | nonameiguess wrote:
         | Actually, this is an even bigger one after working on
         | classified intelligence projects. Being able to watch in real
         | time what is actually happening in some place a news reporter
         | is speculating about and get wildly wrong makes you despair to
         | the point of wondering what they're ever right about. It's even
         | worse to come on a place like Hacker News and see the kinds of
         | wildly wrong things people believe or speculate on, which is
         | doubly frustrating because you can't even legally correct it or
         | even say you know they're wrong.
        
         | WalterBright wrote:
         | Just think how awful the 737MAX was reported on in the press to
         | a 757 stabilizer trim design engineer (me).
        
         | HDThoreaun wrote:
         | There's no money in unbiased news. If news organizations want
         | subscribers they need to present a clear voice that is distinct
         | from what other organizations offer, otherwise people will just
         | click the first link on google or facebook and never pay.
         | Unbiased can also mean undiferentiated, so NYT has leaned into
         | technoskepticism, the journal into Karl Rove conservatism(and
         | now just plain old republican or bust), and on and on. A news
         | organization that hasn't made itself into a destination for its
         | readers is forced to rely on cheap farmed out content that's
         | usually either listicles or just straight ripped from a wire
         | service.
        
         | Xcelerate wrote:
         | > I've had a couple of times when I've been closely involved in
         | an event that was covered in the national newspapers. Both
         | times the stories were presented with major factual
         | inaccuracies and with clear bias.
         | 
         | Same. A few years ago, I worked at a large tech company that a
         | certain well-known news organization likes to cover. After a
         | few articles were published relating to work I was involved in,
         | I found myself thinking "Nope, that's totally wrong" or
         | "Technically correct but presented in a biased way". I decided
         | to cancel my news subscription with them because I realized
         | that they have a certain narrative they want to present to the
         | public, and why should I trust any of their reporting on other
         | topics if the one I was involved in firsthand was just
         | completely wrong?
        
       | ta573957294 wrote:
       | In the movie 300, after Leonidas and the 300 decide to march
       | North towards Thermopylae. The valley & mountains in the
       | background are REALLY from Sparta, Grecet. The producers made had
       | sent crews to take enough photos and videos of the valleygt to
       | accurately portrait the landscape. It was eerie to watch the
       | movie (I grew up in Sparta) and see the mountains all around as
       | they really are. BUT (big but here) they march SOUTH while they
       | should be marching NORTH.
       | 
       | When I watched it at the cinema (in Athens) back in the day,
       | apparently there was one more Spartan in the venue and we both
       | stood up and shouted (using different words) something to the
       | effect of: hey morons, you are going the wrong way, you should be
       | marchin North!!
        
         | dragontamer wrote:
         | Honestly, my brain turned off the moment I remembered that
         | Spartains were known for their heavy armor and not for dressing
         | up like Chippendales dancers / male strippers.
        
           | mosselman wrote:
           | To be fair, I bet a lot of minds turned on for that.
        
       | freetanga wrote:
       | The Boys nailed that episode where the two superheroes enter an
       | out of control plane and discuss how to change its trajectory mid
       | air.
        
       | iamthemonster wrote:
       | I witnessed the converse of this in the recent Mario Brothers
       | movie. There is a scene where steam piping is about to
       | overpressure and it shows a pressure safety valve lifting. Well
       | that pressure safety valve is an accurately drawn ASME I BPVC
       | open-bonnet PSV with test lever.
       | 
       | The open bonnet is to expose the spring to air so it is kept cool
       | and therefore has the correct force downwards on the seat. If you
       | specify a closed-bonnet PSV (like the vast majority of PSVs) for
       | steam service then the whole valve body can get up to the steam
       | temperature, including the spring, and it doesn't lift until a
       | much higher pressure than your bench test indicates.
       | 
       | Quite remarkable that they found someone to help them on this
       | 5-second bit of animation who had experience with using steam in
       | an industrial process plant or boiler, and not just a domestic
       | plumber.
        
       | nonameiguess wrote:
       | This seems to be the case with virtually any profession. You have
       | to just learn to live with it, mostly, maybe even laugh at it. It
       | was damn near a pasttime when I was still in the Army to make fun
       | of how the military is portrayed in film and television. Basic as
       | fuck shit like almost no one even has a haircut that meets
       | regulations. It also makes you doubly appreciate when someone
       | gets it right. We all loved Band of Brothers for that. At least
       | the first season of Mr. Robot stands out in light of so many
       | ridiculous and shitty "hacker" portrayals. Having worked on
       | classified projects is even worse. After working for the NRO for
       | years, scenes of people willy-nilly taking over satellites are so
       | silly you just have to take it as part of the way that fictional
       | universe works, clearly unlike the real universe. The Mission
       | Impossible movies are still pretty entertaining in spite of it.
       | 
       | Honestly, probably the worst thing I can recall is the first
       | season of The Walking Dead when Rick hides inside of a tank
       | turret. I was a tank commander back in my time. Do television
       | writers really think there is that much space inside the turret?
        
         | drewcoo wrote:
         | > This seems to be the case with virtually any profession.
         | 
         | I think that's why the author chose plumbers instead of rocket
         | surgeons.
        
       | JohnMakin wrote:
       | Every computer movie with a hacker ever:
       | 
       |  _hacker opens an excel spreadsheet and types in a bunch of
       | gibberish_
       | 
       | "I'm in the mainframe."
        
         | WalterBright wrote:
         | For decades, computers in movies, despite writing text to the
         | screen, would make a sound like an ASR-33 electro-mechanical
         | tty ka-chunking out each character.
        
         | msla wrote:
         | Oh, for the days when you could run a murderous android with a
         | 6502!
         | 
         | https://www.pagetable.com/?p=64
        
         | dale_glass wrote:
         | Hackers is surprisingly realistic, though.
         | 
         | A lot of what they do is social engineering, a lot of stuff
         | references things that were actually part of the culture, and
         | if you ignore the fancy graphics a lot of what is done is quite
         | plausible even if not exactly as depicted.
        
       | dools wrote:
       | My brother has this problem but for all films. He was a producer,
       | so his field of expertise is film. As a result, I can enjoy a
       | wide range of film and TV series that he finds unwatchable
       | because "the casting is terrible" or "the lighting is all wrong".
        
       | karmakaze wrote:
       | As for the Gell-Mann amnesia effect, I remember exactly how/when
       | I noticed it. In high school, there was a football game at our
       | school which was technically a trade school with all the shop
       | classes but also with good academics. Apparently there was this
       | supposed rivalry between our school and another nearby trade
       | school. The reports of the event described it like there was
       | chaos and rampant vandalism and some violence. I was there the
       | whole time. At most there was some left-over litter on the field
       | from people having fun. That's when I learned the value of
       | printed words in newspapers. I stopped reading them, except as
       | entertainment or the classifieds.
       | 
       | Software can also have mistaken identity. Something that appears
       | polished, is good software because not only did they make the
       | thing do its function, but they even had time to do all this
       | other stuff to make it look and feel great. The other possibility
       | is that they did that work first, and the core function works
       | just well enough that you can't readily tell it's completely
       | broken inside if you go slightly off the beaten path.
        
       | appleflaxen wrote:
       | In the Matrix humanity is enslaved to use them as an energy
       | source.
       | 
       | But the 2nd law of thermodynamics requires that any energy
       | harvested would be, by definition, less than the energy of the
       | food required to sustain their bodies.
       | 
       | Therefore the plot makes no sense, because they should just
       | shovel the food directly into the computer and skip the humans.
        
         | peter422 wrote:
         | Modern industrial farming "wastes" tons of energy to get their
         | desired outputs.
         | 
         | It's possible that the machines were advanced at some things
         | but something that human bodies produced was something they
         | couldn't directly synthesize.
        
           | SilasX wrote:
           | Right but that still means they need to pick literally any
           | other human output besides "energy". At the very least it
           | would have to be some very specific form of energy that
           | humans emit.
           | 
           | Just like it would make no sense to explain the purpose of
           | animal agriculture in human society as "extracting the
           | animals' energy". Like you said, it's the different _form_ of
           | energy (plus nutrients) that they can provide, not energy
           | simpliciter.
        
         | ballenf wrote:
         | I always interpreted "battery" to be lazy shorthand for using
         | the humans as data storage or computation. Like an external
         | hard drive or compute cluster. But I knew I was amending the
         | story so I could stay invested in it.
        
         | thriftwy wrote:
         | This one is super easy. We're getting this story from a band of
         | lunatics. Of course their understanding of the situation is
         | limited by the framework they exist in.
        
         | wCxV8HzziQBb wrote:
         | that's just because they're mining for what computers need to
         | function: RLHF data.
        
         | dmurray wrote:
         | We use cows for the same purpose - we eat them instead of
         | shoveling grass straight into our mouths, even though in some
         | strict sense the grass contains more caloric energy.
         | 
         | Or, we eat vegetables even though the energy in them is less
         | than all the solar energy that falls on them.
         | 
         | But of course the calories in grass and sunlight aren't
         | accessible to us. It's not impossible to imagine some parallel
         | situation where human biology - perhaps genetically modified -
         | is useful to transform some source of energy into a more usable
         | form.
        
         | dsr_ wrote:
         | The Doylist explanation is that of course the human brains are
         | being used as computing substrates; the energy explanation is a
         | symptom of how little the Zion people actually know about the
         | world.
        
           | dilyevsky wrote:
           | Afaik that was in the original script but was removed because
           | it was considered too complicated for general audience to
           | understand.
        
             | pavel_lishin wrote:
             | Neil Gaiman wrote a short story set in the Matrix universe
             | that sticks to this premise:
             | https://matrix.fandom.com/wiki/Goliath
        
             | dragonwriter wrote:
             | Specifically, IIRC, it was in test cuts of the film, and
             | identified as baffling by test audiences.
             | 
             | I don't think anything substantive in the films is
             | inconsistent with it (and the behavior of the agents
             | throughout the films is suggestive of it), just the in-
             | character exposition.
             | 
             | Which, to get really meta, you can explain as the
             | filmmakers _incorporating_ the inability of audiences to
             | grasp, and projecting it into the film as an inability of
             | the "free" humans to do so, so that (as part of the system
             | of control it is established that Zion is) instead they
             | were fed the "battery" story.
        
               | dilyevsky wrote:
               | Yeah it's a shame because it was such a cool Philip K
               | Dick-esque kind of plot point.
               | 
               | > Which, to get really meta, you can explain as the
               | filmmakers incorporating the inability of audiences to
               | grasp, and projecting it into the film as an inability of
               | the "free" humans to do so, so that (as part of the
               | system of control it is established that Zion is) instead
               | they were fed the "battery" story.
               | 
               | Yeah and the original was already meta being a postmodern
               | critique of society so it's a "yo dawg I heard you like
               | meta..."
        
           | eternityforest wrote:
           | It's kind of immediately obvious if you know tech, to the
           | point where I mostly forgot this wasn't the official canon.
           | 
           | Like, what else about a person is of any use to machines with
           | that kind of power?
        
           | pavel_lishin wrote:
           | An alternative explanation is that the machines aren't
           | _using_ the humans for _anything_ ; they're just devoted to
           | the most ethical treatment of these billions of people who
           | believe themselves to be at war, and the only way to capture
           | them and keep them sane is to hook them up to virtual reality
           | and keep them complacent.
           | 
           | Every human is a prisoner of war, in the finest possible
           | cell.
        
         | karmakaze wrote:
         | The same thing annoyed me too but not that much--the premise is
         | a bit like a macguffin where the 'why' isn't important.
         | 
         | Pretty much anything to do with physics, especially in sci-
         | fi/space stories. Now I see everything as a typical human
         | emotional drama with a science/space backdrop. Actual sci-fi
         | where the plot directly ties into it is rare, and good ones
         | rarer. It was actually better when sci-fi was niche and what
         | there was, was trying to be good.
         | 
         | Even worse for me these days than this plumbers effect is bad
         | acting. Once my mind gets into the reality of actors doing a
         | job, getting this filmed, and played for me, it's hard to get
         | back into the storyline even if it might be great, like trying
         | to return to a dream when fully woken.
        
       | PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
       | Happens for me right here on HN.
       | 
       | Comment thread about digital audio/audio software: the comments
       | are just clearly full of people who don't really know much about
       | what they are writing about.
       | 
       | Anything else: wow, HN commenters are so knowledgeable and good
       | at explaining stuff!
        
         | pavel_lishin wrote:
         | I've definitely stuck my foot in my mouth in the bus route
         | threads.
        
       | motohagiography wrote:
       | This plumber problem is not just for movies. It's very difficult
       | to go along with any narrative when its errors offend your
       | competence. It's also why technically competent people tend not
       | to prevail in narrative driven companies or institutions, which
       | is pretty much all of them. Just watch the movie and sustain the
       | dissonance.
        
       | AlbertCory wrote:
       | As a writer myself: I have actual experts review what I write.
       | That's about the best you can do.
       | 
       | I think I read that The Big Bang Theory makes sure all the
       | science is accurate. I wouldn't know.
        
         | sublinear wrote:
         | It's too bad then that the rest of the show was so awful.
         | 
         | How can writers focused on scientific accuracy create such ugly
         | and unlikeable caricatures for their cast and embed so much
         | anti-intellectualism in every episode?
        
           | AlbertCory wrote:
           | Totally agree.
        
           | NeoTar wrote:
           | That was my opinion as a PhD astrophysics student. I didn't
           | recognise the people being presented.
        
           | pavel_lishin wrote:
           | > _How can writers focused on scientific accuracy create such
           | ugly and unlikeable caricatures for their cast and embed so
           | much anti-intellectualism in every episode?_
           | 
           | The show isn't aimed at people they're caricaturing. And it
           | was apparently tremendously successful, so whatever they're
           | doing, they're doing it right.
        
           | pixl97 wrote:
           | >ugly and unlikeable caricatures for their cast and embed so
           | much anti-intellectualism
           | 
           | Isaac Asimov saying is quoted for a reason...
           | 
           | "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there
           | always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been
           | a constant thread winding its way through our political and
           | cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy
           | means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'
        
           | WalterBright wrote:
           | Mr Spock was "on the spectrum", too, but it ways that were
           | fun.
        
       | nocoiner wrote:
       | Part of the movie "American Gangster" was filmed in the
       | neighborhood I lived in. When I watched it, the breaks in
       | continuity versus actual physical reality were so distracting
       | that I had to turn it off within the first ten minutes.
       | 
       | I'm sure for anyone who didn't literally live on the block where
       | they were filming, this is an issue they would have never ever
       | ever noticed, but for me it felt very much like a plumber problem
       | and was basically a showstopper in terms of my ability to enjoy
       | the movie.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | QuizzicalByte wrote:
       | Star Trek Discovery: "the Probe used a SQL Injection attack"
        
         | CommieBobDole wrote:
         | Knowing how legacy software lives on far past its expected
         | lifetime, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if SQL (and services
         | though which you could pass SQL injection) are still in use 235
         | years from now.
        
       | hprotagonist wrote:
       | one of the pitfalls of hobbies like historical reenactment is
       | precisely this. Nobody does armour or most material goods
       | correctly in visual media, and once that's a salient fact for you
       | it really kind of breaks the spell.
        
         | OkayPhysicist wrote:
         | Not to mention the actual combat. It's hard to take a
         | swordfight seriously when both parties seem preoccupied with
         | swinging at their opponents sword.
        
           | ever1337 wrote:
           | As a former fencer, this is what a lot of HEMA bouts look
           | like to me
        
             | greedo wrote:
             | Also as a former fencer, I've realized that fencing has so
             | little to do with most "blade" warfare, whether in real
             | life or in the movies. Epee might be the closest to reality
             | for parts of Europe with duels etc, but I think all three
             | forms diverged pretty quickly since the death of an
             | opponent kind of kills the sport.
        
       | sprior wrote:
       | Try watching any movie involving either space or computers...
        
       | dmm wrote:
       | At the end of the movie Gladiator(2000), Maximus has a vision of
       | being reunited with his family as he walks through a field of
       | wheat. However the wheat is clearly a modern dwarf variety. These
       | weren't developed until the mechanization of agriculture in the
       | 20th century. Ancient varieties would have been taller because
       | the stalks were used as a building material.
        
         | dvh wrote:
         | Not to mention the road had 2 groves not 3.
        
           | pbhjpbhj wrote:
           | Do horse drawn vehicles make 3 grooves (I assume that's what
           | you were alluding to)? I'd expect it would just be a wide
           | band of pretty bare ground with two grooves inset from the
           | edges?
        
             | deadbunny wrote:
             | I would assume the 3rd groove is from the horse.
        
         | ortusdux wrote:
         | https://comicbook.com/thewalkingdead/news/the-walking-dead-s...
        
       | dudul wrote:
       | Yeah you need a better name for that, because, while the
       | phenomenon is real, the name is kind of meh. Why not the
       | electrician problem? Or the teacher problem? Any profession would
       | work. Why plumbers? Plus, I can't really recall any movie or
       | novel where expertise in plumbing was essential to the plot.
       | 
       | Editing here because based on some replies my message wasn't
       | clear: I was talking about expertise in plumbing exhibited by one
       | of the protagonists, not someone watching the movie obviously.
        
         | e28eta wrote:
         | Does he? "Here's a phrase I use, and what it means" seems fine
         | to me. There might be a bit of personal history why he chose a
         | plumber, but I'm guessing he doesn't remember.
        
           | andy81 wrote:
           | This bit sounds plumber-y from the article.
           | 
           | > Simon Orrell: My first exposure to "The Plumber Problem"
           | was sitting in a theatre with my dad in 1973 watching
           | "Emperor of the North" and my dad leans over to whisper,
           | "They didn't make culvert pipe like that back in the '30s. It
           | was plate, not corrugated."
        
             | e28eta wrote:
             | I think people are tooting examples to him, and that's just
             | a recent example, not the source of the name.
        
         | nomadluap wrote:
         | or just, "The Expert Problem"
        
           | blowski wrote:
           | I know "the expert problem" as being unable to explain your
           | area of expertise to anyone because your entire vocabulary
           | and mental model of the world is so deep into that expertise.
           | This is why so many of us on HN are ignored at work, for
           | example - the leaders prefer simpler explanations they can
           | understand, even if they're wrong.
        
         | ortusdux wrote:
         | Gell-Mann awareness?
        
         | sublinear wrote:
         | https://imdb.com/title/tt0079727/
         | 
         | The Plumber (1979)
         | 
         | A young couple, living in a campus apartment complex, are
         | repeatedly harassed by an eccentric plumber, who subjects them
         | to a series of bizarre mind games while making unnecessary
         | repairs to their bathroom.
        
           | justincredible wrote:
           | [dead]
        
         | alanbernstein wrote:
         | The dull name kind of emphasizes how it applies to practically
         | any field of knowledge, AND how it often has no plot
         | significance. The plumbing example given was just an
         | anachronism in the set design.
        
         | lightbendover wrote:
         | > Plus, I can't really recall any movie or novel where
         | expertise in plumbing was essential to the plot.
         | 
         | That's the point, expertise in an area can completely distract
         | from the plot entirely. I can't even watch anything medical-
         | related with my wife since she'll get annoyed about
         | inaccuracies and start complaining about them. Doesn't matter
         | how unrelated to the actual plot it is.
        
           | dudul wrote:
           | I wasn't clear, I was talking about expertise exhibited by
           | one of the protagonists.
        
         | pavel_lishin wrote:
         | Also, the bike shed is the wrong color!
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | The point is that expertise in plumbing isn't essential to the
         | plot. Sometimes it might be, but sometimes it is just a
         | background thing that a plumber would catch but most people
         | don't. If the scene is in the basement a plumber might notice
         | that the drain pipes are all flowing uphill, but the average
         | person just sees a bunch of pipes that to think look like the
         | pipes in any other basement.
         | 
         | Of course in a lot of cases expertise is needed. However that
         | isn't important. The important part is you have more knowledge
         | about something than the average person.
        
       | d--b wrote:
       | I gave it a cold, I gave it a virus, a computer virus.
       | (Independance Day, 1996)
        
       | thriftwy wrote:
       | Going along with narrative requires suspension of disbelief.
       | However, when you see obvious factual errors, disbelief comes
       | knocking again as you begin questioning everything.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | One of the reasons I like fantasy is the plot is set in a
         | universe with different physics and so much of my knowledge of
         | this world can be set aside. Even then though I often wonder
         | how do they feed those large cities with only wilderness
         | between them (most are set on navigable water, even though it
         | is just luck at least the city location doesn't violate
         | possibility, but the lack of explanation of how they get food)
         | - underground dwarf cities are the worse about this.
        
           | TillE wrote:
           | Dwarf Fortress answers that last question with: mushrooms!
           | 
           | I think the fantasy city problem is at its worst in 3D video
           | games, where you visit some impressive capital city, massive
           | walls, towers...and enough housing for about a hundred
           | people.
        
           | karmakaze wrote:
           | My problem with fantasy is that the physics of the universe
           | is not well presented. For the entire duration, I watch with
           | the premise that anything and everything is possible until
           | shown to be otherwise. It's probably different if the source
           | material was read and the viewer already has that context.
           | There's probably some science-fantasy that fits your
           | description which I would enjoy more than the more typical
           | magical/mystical sorts.
        
       | llimllib wrote:
       | My wife is a physician and it drives her crazy. It often
       | manifests as a scene like:                   Doctor 1: This
       | patient has severe hepatitis, we need to get them into surgery
       | stat!              Doctor 2: You mean they have an inflammation
       | of their liver?
       | 
       | Which is truly the dumbest possible way for a doctor to respond
       | in the real world, though obviously can be necessary for
       | exposition to the viewer.
       | 
       | As a programmer, "Live Free or Die Hard", "Independence Day", and
       | "Swordfish" are memorable examples of this sort of cinematic
       | stupidity
        
         | squeaky-clean wrote:
         | The youtube genre of "Expert at XYZ reacts to XYZ scenes in
         | TV/Movies" is a guilty pleasure of mine. Especially the medical
         | ones.
        
         | 123pie123 wrote:
         | arrgh - swordfish really got to me
        
         | eternityforest wrote:
         | Bad tech realism in scifi doesn't bother me, because a lot of
         | it is showing the way tech _could_ be, with a few liberties
         | taken.
         | 
         | Generally they show extreme capabilities, similar to what
         | machine learning can do now(Except it's implied that a lone
         | genius coded it, rather that it being a trained model), in a
         | world of highly flexible IoT type devices that can be
         | repurposed to do anything via a pretty easy GUI.
         | 
         | I take it as a challenge. Using an app I wrote should feel like
         | being on SeaQuest DSV. If there's a broken connector, can I
         | make a software workaround? If I'm buying a product, what's the
         | state of the art for that area?
         | 
         | Except hacking. Hacking scenes are just comedy.
        
         | tiffanyg wrote:
         | Or, she could just note the exposition as part of the fiction
         | and its presentation.
         | 
         | Years ago, I used to be critical when it came to that sort of
         | thing, then I realized that I was being critical of something
         | with a clear purpose that's useful. And, that this was just a
         | distraction from the often much more appalling flaws in mass
         | media that can actually have real-world harms. I.e., flaws that
         | give people the wrong idea about how things actually work in
         | ways that can negatively impact their behavior.
         | 
         | "Independence Day" provides some exemplars of that, certainly.
         | It is completely outclassed, however, by:
         | https://www.salon.com/2023/02/05/the-core-science-entertainm...
         | 
         | These days, I see something like two axes, when it comes to
         | flaws in movies (/ productions of any kind). One axis relates
         | to "style" / "taste". For example, some people dislike works of
         | the author Charles Dickens because he tends to spend a lot of
         | time describing settings, preferring the works of someone like
         | Shakespeare, who's typically much more "action-oriented". The
         | other axis relates to factual / logical / structural issues,
         | the worst in my estimation these days being in the "factual"
         | part of this sort of "dimensionally reduced" axis (i.e., you
         | could of course have 3 or more independent axes for what I've
         | written).
         | 
         | I may not have much interest in something that has a style I'm
         | not a fan of, but I only have a more realized reaction
         | (something like negative, and I care to some degree) when the
         | flaws are on that second axis.
         | 
         | She should try it - heh, save the annoyance for something
         | "truly worthy" of it. :)
        
         | lostlogin wrote:
         | Medical stuff is often worth avoiding if you have even a
         | passing knowledge. I'm a radiographer, and pretty much useless
         | at anything except driving a magnet, but it still bugs me.
         | 
         | Medical shows have ventilators set up wrong, chest x-rays hung
         | up backwards (L on R) and piss poor representations of CPR
         | chest compressions. The main actor can often operate all sorts
         | of specialist equipment, perform surgery and analyse results of
         | complex tests. It's almost universal.
        
           | EdwardDiego wrote:
           | And of course the classic "oh no they flatlined, use a defib
           | to restart their heart " when they're not in V-fib or V-tach.
        
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