[HN Gopher] Mister Rogers had a point - routinely greeting six n...
___________________________________________________________________
Mister Rogers had a point - routinely greeting six neighbors
maximizes wellbeing
Author : RickJWagner
Score : 181 points
Date : 2023-08-18 13:36 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (news.gallup.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (news.gallup.com)
| bradley13 wrote:
| Just to toss this out there: the reverse is also true. We get
| along well with all of our neighbors except one. We say "hi" and
| invite each other over regularly.
|
| That one bad neighbor is a real problem, and a huge source of
| stress and unhappiness.
| ssully wrote:
| Big time. I have a neighbor about half a block from me that
| would harass me when I would walk my dogs by his house. Based
| on his behavior I assume he struggles with some mental issues.
|
| The one positive is I avoid his house completely, so now my
| standard dog walking route is a block longer, so more exercise
| for me and the dogs.
| datavirtue wrote:
| We have one particular neighbor who would greet everyone and
| chat with them. He was always out walking his little dog.
| Very nice. Next thing you know, someone is freaked out,
| posting a Ring video of him violently knocking on their front
| door (that was it, nothing else). It was so strange seeing
| this unfold on camera. Nearly everyone has talked to this guy
| and thought he was very nice. The people who's door he was
| banging on didn't know/recognize him. I'm guessing he has
| some sort of mental health challenges--though he does own and
| maintain a nice home on our street. Since the incident he has
| not been out. I saw him in his yard and noticed he looked a
| bit agitated. Very sad. I think this country is in serious
| need of a mental health framework that can actually help
| people. As it stands now, if this behavior escalates at all
| he will be faced by the police. Zero help.
| jmbiven wrote:
| Original Study (with pretty charts!):
| https://news.gallup.com/poll/509543/saying-hello-linked-high...
|
| Interesting, "No meaningful increase in wellbeing is seen for
| additional neighbors greeted beyond six."
| dang wrote:
| Ok, we'll change the URL to that from
| https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/mister-rogers-had-a-point-
| ro..., which points to this and seems a little spammy.
|
| I guess we'll keep its title though because the top comment
| ("Mr. Rogers was my actual neighbor") won't make sense without
| it.
| throwaway33381 wrote:
| It sounds more to do with correlation vs causation people who
| are more likely to greet others could have a variety of
| different factors in their lives making them feel less
| isolated. One of them unironically states that it helps with
| the Career Wellbeing of an individual which is indicative that
| it doesn't really do that.
| darepublic wrote:
| I feel I have lost much of my ability to be a part of a
| community, due to the covid lockdown, full time work from home,
| and in general spending so much time on the internet.
| coldpie wrote:
| There's plenty of jobs out there with an office available.
| Those of us who like going in to the office would be happy to
| have you :)
| Cpoll wrote:
| > As part of the Gallup National Health and Well-Being Index,
| saying hello to more than 1 neighbor was shown to correlate with
| greater self-perception of well-being.
|
| So this wasn't a study. As far as I can tell, the results can
| just as easily be summarized as "people who report higher well-
| being are more likely to greet neighbours."
|
| This is probably just the article to blame, the quotes they pick
| use words like "correlation."
|
| I find the five vs. six distinction rather interesting though.
| What's up with that?
|
| > Averaged across five dimensions that included career, communal,
| physical, financial, and social well-being, the increase which
| greeting a neighbor had led to around a 2-point increase on a
| scale of 0-100 up until the sixth neighbor, at which point
| further greetings had no measured impact.
| tgv wrote:
| > I find the five vs. six distinction rather interesting
| though. What's up with that?
|
| There's no reasonable mechanism in which greeting people causes
| well-being. So asking why it caps out at 6 makes no sense,
| unless you implicitly want to call out their bullshit. It's
| just another vague correlation in a overinterpreted study of
| noisy data.
| calibas wrote:
| > There's no reasonable mechanism in which greeting people
| causes well-being.
|
| Socializing increases well-being, and greeting someone is
| socializing.
| hgsgm wrote:
| All finite sets of finite numbers have an average.
|
| The value of the average is the result of the biases in data
| collection.
|
| There is obviously a cap in the number of people you can
| practically greet in a day.
| hirundo wrote:
| Good morning my Hacker News digital neighbors, and in case I
| don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening and good night.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Likewise! Be wary of falling stage lights.
| smohnot wrote:
| Mr. Rogers was my actual neighbor in Pittsburgh in 1999-2000,
| while I was at CMU. He would really go out of his way to have
| social interactions. He would always say hello and ask how you
| were doing in a way that felt like he actually genuinely wanted
| to know the answer. Case of the person in real life being exactly
| like what he seems like on TV.
| JohnFen wrote:
| Mister Rogers was a genuinely wonderful person, who I always
| strived to emulate (and always failed to do as well as I
| should).
|
| The world is much poorer without him.
| jacquesm wrote:
| This is one thing that always got me about the United States:
| people will ask you how you are doing, but they don't actually
| mean it, it's just a required pre-amble, a bit like the tones a
| modem uses to sync up with the other end.
|
| If he did it in a way that he actually genuinely wanted to know
| the answer that alone would set him apart in a very distinctive
| way. Most people _really_ don 't want to know the answer, but
| they'll still ask the question.
| chmod600 wrote:
| I treat "how are you" as an opening for a quick update if
| there's something to say (e.g. "it was Billie's first day of
| school today"), or a chance to set up a deeper discussion
| later (e.g. "oh man, long story, let's catch up later").
| vidarh wrote:
| The first time I experienced it, I was dumbfounded when
| someone asked "How are you?" and then just kept walking past.
| It took me a while to accept certain questions like this have
| become greetings and often aren't actually intended as
| questions.
| tristor wrote:
| FWIW, I'm American but well-traveled/encultured, and I work a
| lot with people in other parts of the world. I ask this
| question, and I use it as an opportunity for the other person
| to set the tone of the conversation. I actually find it
| pretty refreshing when I get a blunt and meaningful answer in
| response, it's one reason I love working with Dutch and
| German engineers, because they will give a real answer and
| not be so concerned as to how it may be perceived.
|
| I think it's exactly a bit like a modem preamble, but it's an
| opportunity to create a conversation and give both people in
| the conversation a chance to set the tone. It can really be
| used to genuinely find out the answer to the question, but a
| lot of people don't want to share their personal challenges
| with strangers, coworkers, or even acquaintances. You may not
| enough know exactly what level of intimacy is included in
| your relationship with another person or whether you are at
| the point to move to that next level, this simple question
| gives them the opportunity to either dive into something
| that's very personal or to keep it light-hearted and move
| along.
|
| It's not a throwaway, it's a respectful way to start a
| conversation that gives the other person agency in setting
| the tone.
| Waterluvian wrote:
| That reminds me of Tig Notaro's incredible stand-up set when
| she found out she had cancer:
|
| "I have cancer, how are you?" "Is everyone having a good
| time? I have cancer."
|
| It's a masterpiece, in my opinion. Tig finds an intensely
| awkward situation with an audience that showed up for comedy,
| and just presses on it relentlessly. I really hope that when
| it's my turn, I can handle it like her.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXk1DSbXsZk
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's very powerful, in the beginning the audience is
| totally unable to calibrate their responses but it gets
| better over time. Props to her, her tone and delivery are
| absolutely perfect, aiming straight for the heart.
| [deleted]
| landemva wrote:
| > I really hope that when it's my turn
|
| I watched mother-in-law go through the expensive and
| painful burn/cut/poison and hospice with two morphine
| patches. On flight home I determined I was going to learn
| about it and find a different course than what was offered
| by the medical establishment. The book World Without Cancer
| helped start my journey. It's not just random bad luck, so
| take action.
| xeonmc wrote:
| Reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CMZjXHhMR0
| (first Canadian PSA)
| gglitch wrote:
| Do you shake hands? No one in my life shakes hands anymore.
| "Hi, how are you," is no more rational, but at least it's
| more hygienic. As polite social conventions go, I'd call it
| pretty harmless. Sort of miss the handshakes though.
|
| Edit: FWIW, I often ask people how they are, and while I hope
| and am delighted to hear how people are, you're right,
| objectively, I think it's really more just sort of a default
| template that invites any kind of response vaguely
| correlating with one's status. But, "Hi, I invite you to tell
| me anything on your mind that might correlate with how you or
| the world are, or anything else; I'm just being social," is a
| bit clumsy.
| [deleted]
| foobarian wrote:
| Isn't it just how speech works? There are examples of this
| probably in any culture. It would actually be odd to respond
| to the question as asked instead of the expected ACK; you'd
| get something like this classic:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhEYXcCB1Qw
| iflint wrote:
| As an American, I view it as an option to start a light
| conversation. You can decline the option with a simple "Good,
| thanks", or you can genuinely answer with a light comment and
| see if the other person reciprocates. Answering with a
| particularly serious topic will likely catch the other person
| off guard, so people avoid that, but to say Americans don't
| actually mean it when they ask how are you misses some of the
| nuance of the situation.
|
| There are important contextual and regional difference that
| apply too. You're more likely to get a genuine reply in a
| place like the rural Midwest than you are in NYC. You also
| are more likely to get a genuine reply from a person relaxing
| at a bar than the cashier at a fast food drive through
| window. There are many people who will take the question as
| an invitation to talk if the situation is right.
| xwdv wrote:
| The problem is in the United States, most people don't really
| know _how_ they are doing.
|
| I don't know how I'm doing right now. If you asked me you
| wouldn't get much of an answer. I might say I'm doing just
| fine to end the conversation.
|
| But what is there to really say? We are simply going about
| this world trying to survive, trying to not get shot, trying
| to make so much money so that we never befall the fate of
| those who have been damned to a life of poverty. And all the
| time, a war wages for the control of our minds, and our
| privacy and free agency threatened at every opportunity. Big
| corporations and lobbyists want to hold us down, keep us in
| offices toiling away so princely investors can prop up their
| commercial real estate empires and ensure the working rich
| never get a chance to break free of their chains and embrace
| their own financial independence, because that would mean
| they become uncontrollable, a threat to those in power whose
| primary tool of coercion is money. The climate is falling
| apart and it makes little sense to have even one child,
| assuming you could even find a partner unsullied by the toxic
| dating culture that has been brewed by impossible standards
| hoisted upon us by social medias. I had to step over two
| homeless bums overdosing on the sidewalk this morning,
| victims of a drug epidemic that goes quietly unnoticed, swept
| under the rug as an inconvenient truth. It is clear the best
| days of this nation are far behind it. The future is
| perilously dark and uncertain.
|
| How am I really doing? Don't know. I don't try to think about
| it.
| SirMaster wrote:
| I can't tell if this is serious or a joke.
|
| I'd hate to have your so pessimistic and negative view of
| the world though.
|
| I don't think most people are viewing things this way (i.e.
| makes little sense to have one child). Plenty of people are
| having children and families and enjoying life.
|
| If this isn't a joke, it seems you might need some help as
| there's no way that's a normal way to feel, at least in my
| experience.
| xwdv wrote:
| HN is not a place for jokes.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| > The problem
|
| there is no problem. It's a friendly greeting. Sorry your
| life is such a bummer.
|
| Try saying, "Great, and you?" even if you don't mean it at
| all. You get back what you give out.
|
| Edit: you can also say, "Shitty. It sucks to be me." That
| might even be honest, judging from the responses.
| the_only_law wrote:
| > Try saying, "Great, and you?" even if you don't mean it
| at all.
|
| Nothing I hate more than a liar.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Try going without lying for a week. I think there are
| even movies about that.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > Try saying, "Great, and you?" even if you don't mean it
| at all. You get back what you give out.
|
| Yes, that is _exactly_ the problem. It invites fake
| responses and real responses are not appreciated at all.
| It 's just noise.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| as I said: there is no problem. You prefer to live in a
| private hell, and there are lots of ways to signal that
| non-verbally.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > You prefer to live in a private hell
|
| Sorry? Are you a mind reader or something?
| AlbertCory wrote:
| a mind reader? no, it's fairly clear in your writing.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Forgive me if I think you're offensive. If it would
| please you to ignore my writings and refrain from
| commenting from now on that would help to reduce the
| discomfort.
|
| Unbelievable.
| [deleted]
| AlbertCory wrote:
| If you don't want comments, you can always refrain from
| commenting yourself. It'll save you from "offensive"
| replies. Try it.
| fknorangesite wrote:
| I think you got confused about who you were replying to.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| I see one name all the way down, and it's not you.
| xwdv wrote:
| Private hell or public hell, you're still in hell.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| it's a good culture tbh, gives you a chance to avoid the
| interaction if you don't feel like it, or get into it if you
| want to have a chat.
|
| - How are you doing? - How are you doing?
|
| - How are you doing? - Well, you know, yesterday..
|
| both are equally socially acceptable
| scruple wrote:
| I think it's less that people don't actually want to know
| than it is that people don't actually want to share. But I'm
| from the Midwest, originally, and that's just kind of how we
| are.
|
| Expanding on this just a little bit... I think that, in the
| Midwest but I'm sure in many other distinct American cultural
| regions, there's a sort of shared, but subdued, understanding
| that each of us is uniquely going through some shit. We
| answer the way we do because we don't want to trouble others
| with said shit.
| jasonladuke0311 wrote:
| https://twitter.com/midwestern_ope/status/12283478533173002
| 2...
| scruple wrote:
| My default response is, "Oh, you know." I never know if I
| mean it as a statement or a question. Send help.
| zo1 wrote:
| The entire world probably has the equivalent of "how are you"
| in every which language available. Not sure where you're
| going with this "take" on American culture.
| com wrote:
| Some cultures ask "have you eaten?" and I like that. A lot.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, I've heard 'have you had rice today?' and that gave
| me a similar feeling. It inquires about health, hunger,
| affluence and is an open invitation to share some food
| all at once.
| bovermyer wrote:
| This depends on the region of the United States and the
| context.
|
| "How's it going?" can be either a throwaway acknowledgment,
| or it can be a light opener to a longer conversation.
| frandroid wrote:
| I mean it's not generally accepted to say "I'm dying of
| cancer, you?" but it's a good jumping point for lighter
| conversation, which is healthier than not having the
| interaction at all.
| kibwen wrote:
| In linguistics these are called "phatic expressions", and are
| far from unique to American English. Similar to idioms,
| phatic expressions don't have the literal meaning implied by
| their component words and instead serve a social purpose (in
| this case, serving to signify the beginning of a
| communication protocol). In British English the analogous
| phrase would be "you alright?"
|
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=eGnH0KAXhCw
| dylan604 wrote:
| I find it curious/interesting on how you don't notice your
| own versions of these from just being immersed in the
| language. It's not until noticing these in other
| languages/dialects that I really paid attention. UK
| English's "Watcha" and "innit" (if that's even how they
| spell them) are some of my favorites
| jacquesm wrote:
| Interesting: so this is one of those things where my ESL
| background is shining through. I'm sure if I introspect on
| Dutch I'll find equivalents that I might be using myself
| which when literally translated to English would upset an
| English or American counterpart in the same way. Never
| thought of this. And I didn't know the term Phatic
| Expression.
|
| Thank you for posting this and the video link.
| gattilorenz wrote:
| "Graag gedaan" ("you're welcome", "my pleasure", but more
| lit. "I did it with pleasure") can be dropped quite
| casually, right?
| jacquesm wrote:
| Yes, but it actually does have meaning, and it is
| appreciated for that meaning rather than ignored.
|
| Conversely:Americans probably think I'm rude because I
| don't first ask them how they are but start the actual
| conversation without pre-amble.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I would find it normal if you started a conversation
| after a simple "hi" or "hello", and I think many other
| Americans would agree.
| smodo wrote:
| There is a perfect equivalent in 'hoe is het?' or 'alles
| goed?' Those are mostly used as a syn/ack-phrase so to
| speak.
| jtr1 wrote:
| Speaking for myself, the question is always fairly routine
| but sometimes people answer genuinely. In almost all those
| cases I really do care, but the register of the conversation
| usually only shifts after it's apparent that the person is
| looking for more than a routine conversation
| necovek wrote:
| My English lessons from when I was a kid 30+ years ago spring
| to mind too: "how do you do?"
|
| Still, other languages do that too: que tal (Spanish), sta
| ima (Serbian), wie gehts (German),...
| dylan604 wrote:
| >people will ask you how you are doing, but they don't
| actually mean it,
|
| it is common to hear a reply as "oh, you know" an an equally
| un-engaged response. i remember the first time an uncle
| responed "well, no, I don't. that's why I asked." i had never
| realized how i had become desensitized to the question that i
| gave an equally meaningless response. so now, if it's a
| stranger, it's just a simple "doing good" or "just fine"
| followed by a "thanks". if it's someone i am familiar with
| like family or friend, but not coworkers, then i might stop
| to provide a more truthful response
| paulmd wrote:
| Candid camera set out to test this theory, and found that
| underneath the softhearted exterior was... exactly what it
| seemed.
|
| https://youtube.com/watch?v=vV-eVYahckA
|
| http://www.neighborhoodarchive.com/misc/candid_camera/index....
| jacquesm wrote:
| I make a point of bringing a bunch of flowers to the 10 or so
| houses near us at the beginning of every year. It is such a small
| thing to do but the effects have so far been well beyond what I
| would expect, immediately 'neighbor' becomes 'person I know a
| little bit' and from there the network around you will
| strengthen.
| pinko wrote:
| We've started hosting monthly "spaghetti and meatball nights"
| and invite almost everyone we know, including all the
| neighbors. We often get 30 people, but spaghetti and meatballs
| scale trivially so it's not hard to host. It's been
| _tremendous_ for building community.
| oasisaimlessly wrote:
| There was an article about this recently:
| https://www.seriouseats.com/simpler-entertaining-friday-
| nigh...
| jacquesm wrote:
| That's a cool idea!
| pinko wrote:
| I can't take credit. Two dear friends in L.A. started doing
| it years ago, with similar results, and it sounded so great
| we just copied it.
|
| Except they make the meatballs from scratch, which I don't
| have time for. Decent bulk frozen meatballs + excellent
| Victoria jarred sauce from Costco to the rescue. My Italian
| wife tarts up the jarred sauce a bit with fresh aromatics
| and chunks of canned San Marzano tomatoes, and the end
| result is acceptable even to her exceptionally picky
| palette... Add a big stack of cheap, mismatched thrift-
| store china plates and silverware, and dinner for 30 takes
| us about an hour to prep + an hour to clean up after total.
| barbazoo wrote:
| I yelled at one yesterday for looking at their phone while
| driving, does that count?!
| cbluth wrote:
| Only if you do it routinely, and your well-being feels
| maximized
| barbazoo wrote:
| It does not :(
| gjvc wrote:
| "Saying Hello Linked to Higher Wellbeing, but With Limits"
| tills13 wrote:
| Mr. Rogers and this gallup cohort have not met my neighbours.
| DueDilligence wrote:
| [dead]
| quitit wrote:
| Also related:
|
| People underestimate the positive impact of speaking with
| strangers.
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48459940
| https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2021/09/deep-convers...
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| How many times was this result replicated?
| alexb_ wrote:
| I live in an apartment, and I don't even know what the person who
| lives next to me looks like. Why would I ask them? People are
| living their own lives, why am I going to invade into someone's
| life to make myself feel better
| leftnode wrote:
| This seems shortsighted. There are dozens of reasons you may
| want to get to know your neighbors: help each other out, become
| friends, watch a package, babysit, petsit, and so forth. Sure,
| nothing may happen from an interaction, but it seems one of the
| unique aspects of living in an apartment complex is that you
| can easily know your neighbors.
|
| I live in a large neighborhood of single-family homes and know
| many of my neighbors, most of which have become good, trusted
| friends.
| tayo42 wrote:
| I'm amazed people find pleasant apartments to live in. I
| think I hate every one of my neighbors. From their annoying
| behaviors. I have one that just let's their kids run around,
| blasting music at the moment and kept parking in my assigned
| spot.
| tayo42 wrote:
| Having neighbors you don't mind and will say hi is probably good
| for your wellbeing. Bad neighbors is a nightmare. Not having a
| place where you feel like you can safely retreat to and relax or
| confidently get a full night of sleep is a bad feeling.
| sigmar wrote:
| >Men were more likely to greet neighbors than women, as were
| people with children under the age of 18 in the household, and
| people with a household income of more than $120k a year.
|
| ah, so "wealthier people are happier and greet more neighbors".
| Things are much more simple when you drill down into the
| confounding variables. The data does not support the causality
| inferred by "maximizes" in the title.
| brailsafe wrote:
| One of the reasons I love living where I do, is because while I
| don't know any of the neighbours who live directly adjacent to me
| in their $2m houses, it's a relatively dense and active
| neighbourhood because of all the people forced to rent rooms from
| them, and we all walk to get our groceries or to the bars down
| the street, or meet at the gym, or see each other in the park.
| There's not a chance I'd move to some cul-de-sac, and it's
| frustrating that the possibility of securing a longer-term stay
| here isn't really possible any more.
|
| Aside from that though, in my first 12 years as an adult, I've
| learned that if you see someone you know when you're out and
| about, wave to them, always, unless they're really occupied by
| something else; they might be gone/dead tomorrow, and nobody
| hates being acknowledged in a friendly way.
| RajT88 wrote:
| I can see how this increases your wellbeing.
|
| But what about your neighbor's? Maybe so as well, unless you are
| that weird neighbor people talk about when they are not around.
|
| And let's be honest. You are that weird neighbor.
| viridian wrote:
| People don't care about you nearly as much as you think.
| Everybody has their own shit going on.
| RajT88 wrote:
| Whoosh
| neilv wrote:
| This and /r/awww and such are nice, and we need more warm-
| fuzzies. But I see this article citing a lot of science, and then
| dropping the ball on causation.
| AlbertCory wrote:
| Having a cute, friendly dog helps more than I can say. The dog
| remembers all the houses where our friends live (even if they've
| moved out, or we just saw them on the street so they can't
| possibly be home).
|
| Yeah, there _are_ unfriendly people. You just ignore them.
| bradley13 wrote:
| "greeting neighbors is also linked to career wellbeing, physical
| wellbeing, and financial wellbeing"
|
| Correlation. Happy people are happy. That's not cynical: you
| _can_ improve your happiness by working on all of those fronts.
| tamimio wrote:
| Not just neighbors, I usually give a quick compliment to people
| while walking/cycling around, and you can see the smiles and
| sparking eyes immediately after, a lot of people are lonely, such
| kindness costs nothing.
| firefoxd wrote:
| If you are unhappy, does starting to greet your neighbor makes
| your happier? Or is it the other way around, when you are happy
| you greet your neighbor.
|
| This sounds like a "one little weird trick to boost your
| happiness: greet six neighbors."
|
| The important factors are the other things: having a high income,
| living in a good neighborhood, and and being a good community
| member. These increase your wellbeing, then of course you'll say
| hi to everyone.
| frandroid wrote:
| People in low-income and "bad" neighbourhoods actually stand to
| gain a lot more by knowing their neighbours because they get a
| lot more out of community solidarity when there's trouble,
| they'll have networks to identify trouble earlier, etc.
| walthamstow wrote:
| My father in law lives in Yorkshire, where people regularly say
| hello to each other when out and about, particularly in the
| morning. We live in London, where this is highly unusual.
|
| When visiting he came on our usual morning walk in the park, and
| said hello, good morning to someone. They were completely
| flabbergasted and could only muster a garbled reply through the
| shock.
| ansbalin wrote:
| Awh :')
| quickthrower2 wrote:
| A Yorkshire hello should be able to break anyone out of their
| shell though!
| sunnysidedown wrote:
| The second best neighbor is the one you never meet.
| Mizoguchi wrote:
| I guess he lived in a different time when people were kinder,
| particularly in Pittsburgh. It's hard to greet your neighbors
| when they rutinely park on sidewalks, take their trash out
| several days before pick up and don't take care of their lawn.
| Recently leaving the city for a farm in the country with the next
| neighbor several hundred feet away seems idyllic.
| irrational wrote:
| In our last house we knew 90% of the people on our street and
| regularly interacted with them. We have been in our new house for
| just over 2 years and only know our neighbors on one side of our
| house. The neighbor in the other house moved in just a week after
| we did. In those 2 years we have seen him only once, they day he
| moved in when he pulled up in his car, got out (without looking
| our way), opened the garage door, drove in, and closed the door.
| We literally have not seen him a single time since. The only way
| we know anyone still lives there is the garbage cans going out
| and coming back in each week (though, nobody has ever seen him
| putting out or retrieving his cans). Anyway, it's hard to get to
| know a neighbor who doesn't seem to exist.
|
| In our previous house, we lived about halfway down a dead end
| street, so anyone from one end walking by would come past our
| house. Also, there was a neighborhood garden which brought people
| together. In our new house, there is no community gathering space
| and we leave in a culdesac at the end of a road. The result is we
| don't get to know our neighbors.
| datavirtue wrote:
| [flagged]
| kilbuz wrote:
| The global pandemic may be affecting their behavior.
| xattt wrote:
| My street was full of older folks that we got to know over
| the years. Some moved to assisted living, some are getting
| there, and some passed away from unexpected diagnoses.
|
| We have new Gen Z neighbours for the last two years who seem
| to exist in their bubble, shutting out the immediate world
| and interacting only with their social circle. Barely an
| acknowledgement even if we're out in the yard, shovelling
| snow or cutting grass.
|
| I don't expect much, but maybe small talk once every couple
| of months to get a sense they're alright, and not gone off
| the deep end and bottling their urine in mason jars.
|
| At some point, you start to fill in the blanks by noticing
| little things like what's on TV through the window (hockey
| 24/7) when you drive by, who does the yard work (she does) or
| the decorations they put up on the outside.
|
| I am wondering if this is some generational divide at play
| where some slice of the population had been conditioned that
| the only valid interactions are those that happen online.
|
| It's also possible that we seem intimidating or unsocial --
| but our interactions with other neighbours don't seem to give
| this vibe.
| coldpie wrote:
| > I am wondering if this is some generational divide at
| play where some slice of the population had been
| conditioned that the only valid interactions are those that
| happen online.
|
| I think it's likely some of that is at play, yeah. A less
| confrontational way to phrase this could be: perhaps people
| who were raised with the Internet feel they find sufficient
| socialization through talking with their friends online,
| and don't go looking for it elsewhere.
|
| In any case, I wouldn't read too much into it, or take it
| personally. I'm 35 and have lived in my house for 10 years
| and have only really met three of my neighbors beyond "hi".
| If we were neighbors, maybe you would think I think you're
| intimidating or unsocial, but that's not the case, I'm just
| shy and have a hard time being around new people. Talking
| with strangers is a major event for me, and I'm usually not
| up to the task without a lot of mental prep work. I wish I
| was more social, but well, I've tried, and I'm just not
| comfortable with it. It is what it is.
| infogulch wrote:
| [flagged]
| signalToNose wrote:
| Why put pandemic in quotes?
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Because it's over
| abyssin wrote:
| I also have an experience where the design of the neighborhood
| heavily affects interaction with my neighbours. I live in a
| street whose entrance is too narrow for cars. Except for the
| occasional motorcycle, the soundscape makes it possible to chat
| every time I exit my house and there's no barrier between the
| houses affecting visibility. Hanging out in front of the house
| is enjoyable because the backyards are tiny. We have a great
| relationship with all our neighbours and they form a sort of
| extended family. In the beginning, one thing that surprised me
| was the social dynamics reminding me of school, but it still
| beats anonymity. There are great demonstrations of support with
| the elders, the parents, or the alcoholics of the street when
| they can't open their door at night. We are quite different
| from each other but physical proximity overcomes it.
| alexpotato wrote:
| One thing my wife and I noticed during COVID (I live in
| suburban NJ):
|
| 6pm-6:30pm seems to be a prime time for people in general and
| families specifically to go for a walk. If you are outside with
| kids playing on the front lawn, this leads to a lot of organic
| conversation since no one is in a rush.
|
| If you happen to be preparing and eating dinner inside during
| this time (like we used to), you can miss out on a lot of
| opportunities to get to know your neighbors (assuming they are
| friendly).
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Did you move into an affluent & predominantly white
| neighborhood? I will probably get shit for this, but this has
| been the norm in those from my experience.
|
| After I got into tech I lived in a couple of them for five
| years then just gave up and moved back to the underdeveloped
| part of the city I grew up in, where people are willing to
| acknowledge each other.
| catchnear4321 wrote:
| here's your counter-point. now the sample size is two.
|
| lived in a diverse, affluent, tech/corpo neighborhood, most
| neighbors ignored or were passive aggressive - the kind where
| you know you aren't being ignored because the behavior is too
| egregious to not be aware of the impact. you aren't being
| ignored, you aren't worth ignoring.
|
| lived in an older, affluent neighborhood. four neighbors that
| would likely be described as caucasian regardless of their
| names or backgrounds were nothing but kind, offering to help
| the first time we interacted.
|
| lived in an older, rural, poor neighborhood. most folks would
| stop and talk if you were outside, see how stuff is going.
| place was shit. some of the folks were gold.
|
| the issue isn't the skin color, the wallet fullness, the
| religion, or the race. you can look any which way and be an
| asshole on the inside. you can have a lot or a lot of
| nothing, and be an asshole.
|
| affluence just let's the asshole shine through a bit more.
| after all, the asshole deserves a lot, and the money is
| proof.
|
| larger cities develop these little bubbles of halfluence -
| starter mcmansions for the white collar "elite," close to
| their cubicle farms or at least a fat internet pipe and a
| starbucks within uber. the environment is shit - these aren't
| actually elites - so the individuals tend to act up in their
| burbclaves.
|
| established vs gentrified might be a better distinction.
| established doesn't always mean affluent, but it does have a
| different sort of wealth.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| Yes I was using those as lazy shorthands to avoid
| litigating the exact definitions or having to account for
| all of the nuance elided by them. They're affiliations and
| trends, not geo-destiny. Historical immigrant enclaves
| specifically tend to be really interesting counterexamples,
| one way or another.
| thewildginger wrote:
| Being Established not meaning specifically wealth, I like
| that
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| > established vs gentrified might be a better distinction.
| established doesn't always mean affluent, but it does have
| a different sort of wealth.
|
| long term residents vs. new blood. different motivations
| and world view, and playing different games.
|
| i'm in a well off 'burb next to a university, no one talks.
| lots of community leagues, posters about clubs, etc. but
| none of the neighbors interact. lots of renters, med
| students, et al, and they'll be gone in 3 years.
|
| previous neighborhood was a poorer downtown apartment
| neighborhood owned by old italian ladies. they didn't do
| management companies or automated rent transfers, they made
| a point to come around every month, both to collect, but
| also to check in. they genuinely cared about knowing
| people, and wanted us to talk to each other -- helped
| prevent things like break-ins and accidental fires, etc.
| nemo44x wrote:
| I'm not sure race or affluence has anything to do with it so
| much as how the place you're living is designed. There needs
| to be a reason for people to walk - like going to some shops,
| the train, nice parks, etc. When you have that then people
| see each other often and recognize each other and say hi and
| stop and chat for a few minutes. And some of those
| relationships grow as you find out you have certain shared
| interests (kids, hobbies, etc) and someone gets the courage
| to invite the others over for a BBQ with some others and it's
| nice. And it becomes contagious as people begin to blend and
| the next thing you know the entire block you live on, most
| everyone knows most everyone else.
|
| But if you live in a place where there's nothing walkable and
| walking isn't even encouraged (no sidewalks, etc) then people
| don't really leave their back yards. Everyone is isolated.
| And to be sure this is what a good deal of people want. But
| if you want community and getting to know each other then you
| need to live in a place that encourages walking around.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| I'm sure you're right but I've never lived in a suburb.
| Even in the dense urban neighborhoods of my experience
| there is a big difference. Car ownership & use may play a
| role though. The wealthier neighborhoods are more walkable
| & bikeable and closer to transit but still have more people
| with cars, more space taken up by garages.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| Not the person you responded to, but I'll bite. I live in an
| affluent nearly all-white suburban neighborhood. I know
| everyone within two houses in any direction, and a few that
| are even farther than that. We have one recluse and one
| Karen, but everyone else is super laid back. It's delightful.
|
| I've lived in a range of neighborhoods over my life, and I
| haven't really seen a pattern. My gut instinct is that
| attitude is contagious, and friendly neighborhoods have (or
| had) someone who spreads the love. People reflect the way
| they are treated.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| No shade but I'd like to hear from one of the non-white
| neighbors about how delightful it is? I do generally assume
| the white people living in all-white places are having a
| good time with it.
| deodar wrote:
| I'm non-white. My friendliest and kindest neighbor is
| white, an old timer who has been in the same house for
| over 50 years. His wife bakes cakes for us and they share
| produce from their vegetable patch. The only other
| neighbor who talks to me regularly is also white. He is
| also from an "older" generation with grown up kids who
| have moved away.
|
| The rest of the neighbors are a younger and more diverse
| crowd who have moved here within the last decade. A few
| of them will wave hi occasionally. More commonly they
| will avoid eye contact.
|
| IMO it is a generational thing and not racial.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| I've never felt quite that comfortable that I'd ask. Our
| token black family is a pair of lawyers who seem plenty
| affluent and comfortable, and they certainly socialize
| with the rest of the neighborhood as much as anyone else.
| Are they consciously aware of their minority status? I
| imagine so. I feel the same way when I'm the only white
| person in a black neighborhood. It's a pretty laid back
| neighborhood, and I've seen zero indication that anyone
| here is racist.
|
| But this is the PNW, and while our history is far from
| crystal clean, we mostly don't have anything like the
| tension that is normal in areas of the country farther
| south.
| dimva wrote:
| Why would you move away from such a nice situation?
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "In our new house, there is no community gathering space and
| we leave in a culdesac at the end of a road. The result is we
| don't get to know our neighbors. "
|
| Some people like people ..
| jacquesm wrote:
| Spooky. If not for the garbage cans you'd wonder if he was even
| alive.
| gspencley wrote:
| Sounds blissful.
|
| I'm a fairly introverted, reclusive person. Much like your one
| neighbour. I keep to myself.
|
| I do know my neighbours. The couple on one side is delightful
| and the woman on the other side is a "Karen" who I prefer not
| associate with. She is an outdoor person and only "talks" to me
| when she has a problem with how I keep my yard. Ironically I
| would probably use my yard more (and thus tend to it more) if
| she were not always outside in her yard being loud.
|
| We have alley parking and garages in the rear, and I have
| workshop in my garage so I met a lot of my neighbours on the
| other side of the alley when working on projects... they came
| and introduced themselves and asked me what I was working on.
| They are delightful, but they also interrupted me which is
| annoying.
|
| My wife and I are easy to get along with and go out of our way
| to be friendly, but would honestly rather not know that our
| neighbours exist. Car doors, the sound of people talking, dogs
| barking, kids being loud, lack of privacy in our back yard are
| all things that really bother us. On the flip-side, when the
| tree in our front yard shed a branch so large that it was
| practically a small tree, the delightful couple next door
| helped us clean it up. I felt a sense of community that day and
| I started to get what others find enjoyable about it. Still, we
| often talk of going "going rural" and not having neighbours at
| all.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| I think you'll find that community matters even more in rural
| towns.
|
| We are social animals. We can't do it all alone. That modern
| society has enabled us to be 'reclusive' is frankly a
| maladaptive outcome.
| klipt wrote:
| There have always been hermits even before modern times,
| but I agree it's a high risk life strategy.
|
| Loners are probably much more likely to die of say, having
| a heart attack and not receiving help promptly.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "Loners are probably much more likely to die of say,
| having a heart attack and not receiving help promptly."
|
| On the other hand, loners won't get a heart attack caused
| by other people ..
| klipt wrote:
| "People who experienced social isolation had a 32% higher
| risk of dying early from any cause compared with those
| who weren't socially isolated."
|
| https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/06/19/health/loneliness-
| social-...
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I always wonder about those statistics, I could imagine
| an extrovert is going to have a much tougher time being
| alone than an introvert. To apply it across the whole
| population seems dubious.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Falls are a fairly common cause of death. If you are
| elderly and fall and no one is around to help, that is in
| many cases a death sentence. Consider also the parent's
| comment about heart attacks, which you seem to have
| glossed over. Seems this factor alone can explain the
| data.
| irrational wrote:
| Why would an introvert be more likely to have a heart
| attack from being alone? People stress me out so much. I
| imagine less stress would lead to fewer heart attacks.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Oh for sure.
|
| I guess except for rare exceptions, allmost no one really
| wants to be alone by default. But I know that I am rather
| alone, than in bad company.. and I met quite some people,
| who lived in misery, because they were too scared of
| being on their own for some time.
| SirMaster wrote:
| Are you sure we can't?
|
| I'm pretty sure there are people who live alone like up in
| the mountains or out in the wilderness alone and do just
| fine.
| mathstuf wrote:
| If you lower your standards, sure. "Just fine" is
| survivable, but unless one derives enjoyment out of
| solitude and playing "is it wet or is it cold" all the
| time, I don't think you'll win many people over to such
| viewpoints.
|
| (I've done solo trips and hiked the AT; it's a great
| experience, but definitely not for everyone.)
| midasuni wrote:
| No we aren't social animals, certainly not in rural areas.
| Give me a good book and a quiet afternoon in the shade of a
| tree with no neighbours any day.
| jacquesm wrote:
| You maybe not. But having lived in very rural areas you
| quickly realize that your neighbors are your safety net
| far more than the authorities and that in a pinch you all
| need to be able to rely on each other. A good book isn't
| going to get your car out of a ditch or help locate your
| kid or pet when it has gone missing.
| midasuni wrote:
| You may be, I may be not. That doesn't lead to any
| conclusion than "some people like other people"
|
| I've never need to rely on anyone, other than of course
| normal economic transactions.
|
| Why would I park my car in a ditch?
| jacquesm wrote:
| > I've never need to rely on anyone, other than of course
| normal economic transactions.
|
| That's funny. You are relying on _thousands_ of other
| people every day, all day long. you just don 't realize
| it. And not all of those are economic transactions there
| is plenty of goodwill involved. For instance, you rely on
| other people not to kill you when you are driving. Every
| time a stranger saves your bacon when you make a mistake,
| for instance. They don't have to! But if that's your
| worldview I don't think I'll be able to change it.
|
| > Why would I park my car in a ditch?
|
| I don't think anybody who ever parked their car in a
| ditch asked that question prior to it happening and
| afterwards they probably still didn't know. But in areas
| where there is snow it isn't rare at all to have vehicles
| do stuff that wasn't quite in the plan. My neighbor in
| Canada managed to do this with a tractor. Fortunately for
| him I had a bigger tractor and was able to pull his out
| of the ditch. And when it was my turn someone kindly
| brought over an excavator...
|
| Society is a fabric, and no man is an island, not even
| you. You may have the illusion that you are but from the
| cradle to the grave you are 100% dependent on other
| people. Unless you live in the boonies and grow your own
| food and hunt, but if that were the case you wouldn't be
| writing here. Speaking of which: right now you rely on me
| to converse with you.
| midasuni wrote:
| Those are normal expectation of living in society.
| Talking you your neighbour is not.
|
| I'm sure it was decades ago in the curtain twitching
| world where people stayed living int he same street for
| decades, but not today in a highly movable world.
| Certainly not for me any my peers. any interactions I
| make are slot my own choosing, that I happen to live near
| someone is of no consequence.
|
| If I did park my car in a ditch there a plethora of
| recovery services that will retrieve it, whether I'm a
| mile from home of 200 miles from home. I have no need or
| desire to know anything about the recovery driver, or the
| pilot who flew the plane I was last on, or the guy who
| delivers my mail, nor the plumber who replaced my boiler
| last year.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > Those are normal expectation of living in society.
| Talking you your neighbour is not.
|
| Errm.. yes, that's perfectly normal.
| rimunroe wrote:
| > Those are normal expectation of living in society.
| Talking you your neighbour is not.
|
| Given how our language has a word, "neighborly", to
| describe friendly, helpful behavior, I think the burden
| is on you here for explaining why talking to your
| neighbor isn't a thing one can normally expect. I don't
| think you've done that yet.
|
| > I'm sure it was decades ago in the curtain twitching
| world where people stayed living int he same street for
| decades, but not today in a highly movable world.
| Certainly not for me any my peers.
|
| How old are you? I'm in my mid 30s and this describes
| none of my peers, including the younger ones in their
| late 20s. I can imagine younger folks wanting this. I
| certainly remember having friends who talked about
| wanting to move around to different cities/countries all
| the time in college and shortly after, but their
| priorities shifted over time. I have friends who love to
| travel, but I don't know anyone who wouldn't love either
| a house or an apartment they didn't have to worry about
| losing each year due to the landlord jacking up the rent
| or the building being sold to someone who wants to
| convert the building to condos.
|
| > any interactions I make are slot my own choosing, that
| I happen to live near someone is of no consequence.
|
| I'm not sure what this means. I can't imagine it's
| literally true as you can't really control if someone
| else approaches you, unless you just flatly refuse to
| acknowledge their presence.
|
| > If I did park my car in a ditch there a plethora of
| recovery services that will retrieve it, whether I'm a
| mile from home of 200 miles from home.
|
| I've had to wait a long time on a tow truck before when
| the weather was pleasant. When there's a snowstorm
| emergency services get slammed and delays increase. My
| neighbor has a truck and a snow plow, and I wouldn't
| hesitate to ask him if he could help unstick my car if it
| sank into the mud a bit. Also, he plows my driveway when
| the snow is heavy. We do neighborly things for them as
| well, like helping out when a tree falls in their yard.
|
| I don't have kids yet, but from our experiences helping
| our neighbors out and having grown up with neighbors we
| knew well, they're invaluable for raising kids. "It takes
| a village to raise a child" is quite real!
| reaperducer wrote:
| _No we aren't social animals_
|
| And yet, here you are...
| pizza wrote:
| The flip side of this is that -if you're rather unlucky-
| being so codependent on the community can get ugly, quite
| fast; especially in such a remote environment. All it takes
| is one crazy neighbor to start turn the village against you
| for no particularly compelling reason.
| scotty79 wrote:
| Try living in a block of flats. The fact that even though
| you have hundreds of people living super close to you an
| yet you have benefits of complete anonimity is a pure
| bliss.
| avgcorrection wrote:
| Hell is other people. Since we're apparently doing
| borderline thought-terminating cliches.
| TinyRick wrote:
| I'm one of those neighbors who doesn't seem to exist. I don't
| dislike my neighbors and would like to interact with them more
| often, unfortunately I don't often have time for it.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| It's funny, I've always known my neighbors and talk to everyone
| on the block, but then I realized that most of them don't talk
| to each other. Strange way to live because we are increasingly
| living in a world where you're going to need help sooner or
| later and who else can you seek help from in emergencies other
| than your neighbors?
|
| We had a mom who had recently moved in, screaming in hysterics
| on the block one day because she thought her toddler ran away
| when she stepped out for a moment to throw out trash. My
| neighbor (who also talks to everyone) and I came out, and along
| with the mailman and a couple of construction guys around the
| corner, immediately did a search on the neighborhood blocks.
| She eventually found him hiding in the house, and was relieved,
| but then just walked away without so much as a thank you to
| anyone. Such a strange way to live.
| ndesaulniers wrote:
| I wonder if perhaps the neighbor might feel the same about you?
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Yeah I had a similar experience at my last place. I actually
| attribute it at least in part to what kind of weather your area
| has. My last house was in a very temperate place, and I and my
| neighbors were very often outside where spontaneous
| conversation could manifest.
|
| I'm currently in Phoenix, AZ, and given regular temperatures
| over 105* F, there just typically aren't many people out and
| about, save for a few hours in the morning. And that's usually
| before sun up.
|
| I have noticed a general decline in my spirits not shooting the
| breeze with my neighbors from time to time.
| W0lfEagle wrote:
| I feel like I read this comment on another thread a while ago.
| Did I?
| ShrimpHawk wrote:
| Where does anyone live that they even see their neighbors to
| greet? Not here in the suburbs.
| mrlatinos wrote:
| I live in the suburbs but these are homes built in the 1950s
| and a lot of my neighbors are older. My neighbor and I have 3/4
| acre backyards that are just divided by a chain link fence. We
| both have dogs and like to do yard work. He's retired and I
| work from home. We talk across the fence a few times a week.
| He'll put surplus items from his vegetable garden on our fence,
| give our dog treats, and I'll exchange with bread I've baked.
| We shoot the shit about everything - his childhood growing up
| in the neighborhood, health, things going on, projects we might
| want to tackle together...
|
| It's definitely possible with the right neighbor, you just have
| to be intentional and friendly.
| Clent wrote:
| Guess it depends on your suburb.
|
| In my area there are people who sit in they are retirees that
| sit in their front yards and greet not just pedestrians but
| every vehicle that goes by.
| xeromal wrote:
| I mean isn't a suburb one of those HOA neighborhoods with
| houses every 1/4 acre? Seems ripe for neighbor communication.
|
| This seems like a cop out.
| ethanbond wrote:
| In the US most people in suburbs only ever walk from their
| door to their car (which is itself often inside the garage)
| and then they sit in their steel and glass box to the minimal
| possible distance from their desk, then do the reverse on the
| way home.
| xeromal wrote:
| Idk. I live in a suburb and my little neighborhood is
| pretty friendly to the point where someone can post to our
| private Facebook group and ask someone to hold a package or
| to check out their house while they're on vacation. Really
| depends on what kind of community you have
| ethanbond wrote:
| What I'm describing is unrelated to friendliness. Our
| built environment is the number one determinant of
| encounters with our neighbors. You can be perfectly
| friendly with people who you rarely see and could never
| make a routine of greeting (because you rarely see them
| without prior planning).
| barbazoo wrote:
| Do those "neighborhoods" even have sidewalks then?
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| Not usually, or if they do, they're merely 'decorative'
| in that they're not a viable option for pedestrians to
| get from A to B. They just end without signals or
| crosswalks. Someone in a wheelchair would literally have
| to drive in the street in many areas of the south.
| datavirtue wrote:
| they end the sidewalk a good poke from the brown
| neighborhoods
| ttymck wrote:
| Not always, and, in my experience, the answer is
| increasingly "no".
| hgsgm wrote:
| If you walk outside you'll see people.
| jjulius wrote:
| Is there never anybody else outside when you go for a walk?
| krunck wrote:
| In a midwest neighborhood of modest houses built in the 1920's
| inhabited by families with children. Just one example.
| mikestew wrote:
| I dunno, I live in Redmond, WA and see my neighbors regularly.
| Greeted at least three people on the trail on my run this
| morning, greeted a few more on the dog walk. I'll probably wave
| at the neighbor across the street at some point when we're
| mutually outside. People walk by the house all day long. I
| don't know how much more suburban you're going to get than
| Redmond (you have to cross water to even _get_ to the city).
|
| Now, I'll qualify that by saying that Redmond in general is a
| lot more pedestrian-friendly than a lot of suburbs I've
| experienced. And in the last twenty years or so, it's also
| quite wealthy. And seeing your neighbors also entails getting
| outside. ;-)
| hibikir wrote:
| Most of the year, I live in a midwestern suburb: 1/3rd of an acre
| lots as far as the eye can see. I go on a walk every day, but
| it's rare that I ever actually see a human being during said
| walk: Everyone is cooped up in their houses. In practice, in most
| of this suburban life, every bit of human interaction is planned.
| We drive to commerce, and there we are met by workers with
| constantly changing schedules, who have minimal connection to the
| businesses they work in. It's not impossible to make connections
| in this environment, but it takes actual effort. This makes work
| the main form of social interaction for many people around me.
|
| Over the summer, however, I spend time in Spain. A town with a
| population under 200k, and yet far more dense than San Francisco.
| Streets are narrower, and most errands are less than 10 minutes
| away, on foot. The pharmacist, the baker, the workers at the
| restaurant, don't change very much. Since everyone walks, you
| really get to pass by every neighbor in the building every couple
| of weeks. The parks and playing ares with children are never
| close to empty, and people tend to have routines, so it's far
| easier to get to know people from random interactions. It's not
| uncommon to meet people you know, completely by accident, just
| because you walk the same streets. I might not stop at a certain
| coffee shop, but it has seating outside, and friends are be
| sitting there, and therefore I get a chance social encounter,
| even when I am not visiting the same business. There's benches in
| random streets, and people meet there, and chat on the street, so
| you don't even need a business as a "third place", when you have
| the street. Thus, getting six non-work social interactions a day
| becomes trivial.
|
| Large parts of America have chosen forms of development that are
| naturally isolating: It's no surprise so many feel isolated!
| nemo44x wrote:
| Yes, that's exactly right. A town needs to be designed in a way
| that encourages walking. Shops to walk to, trains for
| commuting, a certain density, etc. Walking create so many
| opportunities to see people regularly without planning and to
| become comfortable with each other and it grows from there.
| Multiply that by everyone else doing it and you do get a real
| sense of community.
|
| > Large parts of America have chosen forms of development that
| are naturally isolating: It's no surprise so many feel
| isolated!
|
| Indeed - I have relatives that live in a place like this. Nice
| homes, etc but few trees, no sidewalks, and nowhere to walk.
| Why would you other than exercise? And a lot of people like it
| this way and that's fine. They want privacy and aren't
| interested in building relationships with people they live
| near. That's fine.
|
| But if you want a sense of community then you need to live in a
| place that encourages walking by making it useful.
| foobarian wrote:
| I think it's because immigrants who came over from Europe
| wanted castles, not hovels. And that's what they got.
| nemo44x wrote:
| Well, there's lots of land making land ownership very
| attainable.
|
| During the 1930s and 1940s very little was built. And what
| was built was seldomly maintained. So after the war there
| were a lot of people living in old, outdated, cramped, and
| expensive apartments and tenements in cities.
|
| Suddenly materials were plentiful and there was a lot of
| available land. The economics of it were such that you
| could get a car and a home outside the city for less than
| an apartment inside. And the living conditions were so much
| better. People still had their bigger families and
| community bond in their new neighborhoods.
|
| But over time that was lost and we were left with the
| isolated towns that need a car to get anywhere and there's
| no community connection as the new development doubled down
| on bigger houses, bigger lots, more cars.
|
| I live in an old pre-war town. Most every home was built
| before 1930 and most around the turn of the century. Lots
| of walkable shops and a train runs through. There are many
| old towns like this and they're wonderful. They also tend
| to be expensive nowadays.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Designing cities for walking? Sounds like COMMUNISM!
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