[HN Gopher] StarLite 12.5-inch Linux tablet
___________________________________________________________________
StarLite 12.5-inch Linux tablet
Author : focusedone
Score : 555 points
Date : 2023-08-17 23:30 UTC (23 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (us.starlabs.systems)
(TXT) w3m dump (us.starlabs.systems)
| tommica wrote:
| I'd love to get this - when I saw the price I was blown away, it
| really seems like a good deal!
|
| The visual presentation of it is really delicious.
| snvzz wrote:
| ... on Legacy ISA.
|
| I'd rather a RISC-V Pinetab-V, based on the same JH7110 as
| VisionFive 2.
| LeonM wrote:
| > ... on Legacy ISA.
|
| Since when is x86 legacy?
|
| > I'd rather a RISC-V Pinetab-V, based on the same JH7110 as
| VisionFive 2.
|
| Have you actually used one of those? They are excruciatingly
| slow. Less performance than most Raspberry Pi. Maybe it works
| for your niche workflow, but for StarLite to succeed they'll
| have to build a _usable_ product.
|
| Also competitive ARM based alternatives (such as Snapdragon)
| require many closed source blobs to function.
| snvzz wrote:
| >Since when is x86 legacy?
|
| Since the first commercial RISC chips obsoleted x86 in the
| 80s.
|
| >Have you actually used one of those?
|
| Yes, JH7110 on VisionFive 2.
|
| >They are excruciatingly slow. Less performance than most
| Raspberry Pi.
|
| Not my experience, owning VisionFive 2 and all raspberry pi B
| boards (1,2,3,3+ and 4), all of which have been used heavily.
|
| The CPU is much faster than RPi3b+'s while using way less
| power. Only a little slower than RPi4, and this is assuming
| the RPi4 has a huge heatsink like mine does. JH7110 doesn't
| require a heatsink nor throttle under load, for it stays
| under 75C even when running builds 24/7, yet is designed to
| survive 125C.
|
| Whereas everything else in the SoC is better. Especially the
| GPU, which in the RPi4 is anemic, and can barely keep up even
| for 2d at 1080p. The experience is much better on VisionFive
| 2 for even simple tasks like web browsing, and it's not even
| close. Night and day.
|
| Nevermind the upstream support effort[0] getting this far in
| just a few months (indiegogo delivery was in March), and
| follows standard RISC-V boot/firmware interface
| specifications, whereas Raspberry Pi is all bespoke and never
| cared much about upstreaming support.
|
| >Also competitive ARM based alternatives (such as Snapdragon)
| require many closed source blobs to function.
|
| Here I just do not understand what point you're trying to
| make.
|
| 0. https://rvspace.org/en/project/JH7110_Upstream_Plan
| LeonM wrote:
| > Only a little slower than RPi4
|
| That was my point. It is slower than a RPI4, which is
| already too slow to use for anything serious. You can't
| expect StarLite to develop a tablet that is 'a little
| slower than RPi4', because nobody but you will buy it. And
| yes, your workflow may be possible on a low powered
| machine, but that is not how the majority of customers use
| a tablet. Until there is a serious competitor to modern x86
| processors in terms of performance (which the JH7110
| definitely isn't), RISC-V is not going to be offered in any
| commercial grade product anytime soon.
|
| > Here I just do not understand what point you're trying to
| make.
|
| The point I was trying to make, it that the other
| alternative, ARM, is also not suitable for StarLite's
| mission due to the closed blobs. So really, x86 is the only
| viable option they have.
| askbookz1 wrote:
| It looks like a pretty cool device but, since I started working
| from home, I have no use for a ultralight device. I only have a
| laptop because that's what everybody gets but if I've moved it a
| mere meter around, that was too much.
| znpy wrote:
| I'm using my sister's ipad and frankly the only good reason i see
| to get an ipad is the goodnotes app. It's really a killer feature
| app.
|
| Is there a linux equivalent of goodnotes?
|
| Getting this tablet and running linux would be ideal as long as i
| could have something like goodnotes
| eternityforest wrote:
| Why did they have to use a micro HDMI port? Couldn't they have
| done dual USB-C and made one the DisplayPort output? MicroHDMI is
| not a very nice connector, it's a lot of pins under mechanical
| stress from the heavy, rigid HDMI people generally attach to it.
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| Probably due to cheapening out a few dollars on the BOM, not a
| great sign to be honest.
| mike_hock wrote:
| But not cheaping out on pixels that you can't even see with a
| magnifying glass. 1920p on 12.5 inches, lol.
| chx wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37171823
| askbookz1 wrote:
| doesn't explain the mini hdmi port
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| DisplayPort has the _huge_ advantage of being incredibly easy
| to passively convert into the ultra-legacy-weird-difficult
| HDMI, where-as the legacy-centric-pita-gross HDMI requires
| active absurd adapters to turn into DisplayPort.
|
| 100% more usb-c please, with alt modes. USB4 mandates every
| port be able to do DisplayPort output.
|
| I really hope we start to see phones and tablets which have >1
| USB port. Lenovo has an absurd beast phone, a Legion phone,
| with both dual batteries and dual USB-c (USB3) ports. If we get
| to 2030 and phones can't plug in to GPUs something is f-ed and
| the system is broken, tech has ossified grossly. Hopefully
| happens sooner, and hopefully we see dual ports emerge midway
| to then too. Would be such a great capability set.
| afavour wrote:
| > If we get to 2030 and phones can't plug in to GPUs
| something is f-ed and the system is broken, tech has ossified
| grossly.
|
| Why? That's an incredibly minor use case. If you're expecting
| something this niche to become the norm then you're destined
| to be disappointed.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| You may be onto something, as Lenovo shut down the super-
| badass ultra-phone.
| https://www.androidauthority.com/lenovo-legion-phone-
| shutdow...
|
| But reciprocally, what's the new ultra-hot device? Gaming
| decks. Lenovo just announced theirs today. Steam, Asus, and
| dozen of others have amazing devices. And there are still
| gaming-centric phones galore.
|
| This should be an easy ask. It should be a lock. Android
| alas is kind of a weird divergent hard to use OS that makes
| everything difficult. Apple hasn't supported anyone elses
| GPUs in a long long time. But in general, this should just
| be easy simple & doable, were it not for the sins of these
| ultra-bizarre weird not-PC but so close systems. ChromeOS
| finally found jesus & is now running on Wayland, because it
| was obviously the correct & only sensible choice all along,
| And has huge advantages, such as having a huge world of
| people optimizing & making the system better. I don't know
| how Android ever pivots (they just steal everything
| ChromeOS (which runs Android great) is doing), but it
| should, so that it can make ideas like this unimaginably
| easy & simple tasks, versus today where this sort of idea
| is a painstaking slow & awful endeavor to make happen.
|
| So much of computing is a story of niche finding leverage &
| finding adherents. The early adopters are just those who
| see potential, and they continually have reshaped what
| computing is. Writing off "niche" as uninteresting & minor
| ignores how sensible & clear & obvious so many advancements
| are & should be.
| eternityforest wrote:
| I wish Android and Linux would just merge. Give people
| access to a Linux userland that lets you install Nix
| packages(Most anything but Nix or similar would be a step
| backwards from Android's reliability during updates), and
| then Android could very easily be most people's only OS.
|
| If people could plug in their phone and run Linux apps on
| a full size monitor they'd probably pay a lot more for
| the phone, knowing they didn't then also need a nice
| laptop.
| silon42 wrote:
| So, maybe AOSP should become another Linux desktop?
| pmontra wrote:
| The general population only need to run a browser on
| their external monitor, with Office 365 or Google Docs
| and Gmail. There is no need for anything else. If one is
| not a software developer, which Linux apps do you feel
| are needed?
|
| I used Samsung DEX a few times on my tablet. The mouse
| plus touchscreen combination works well. The keyboard is
| a little worse because there is no Esc key on Android and
| Ctrl [ is uncomfortable.
| pjerem wrote:
| Because that's what standards are for : a single base of
| universal rules that allows you to build what you want over
| it.
|
| The point is not that phones should be connected to GPUs,
| that's a silly idea.
|
| But nevertheless for plenty of reasons including ecology
| and autonomy of people, it should be the case that any
| device should work with any other device as long as anyone
| is able to develop a driver. And there should be no
| permanent lock against custom drivers.
| mcny wrote:
| We had USB 3 with the Samsung Galaxy Note 3 in September
| 2013. It is now almost a decade. If rumors are true,
| Samsung will announce a USB 4 (thunderbolt 3) phone before
| the end of 2024. I agree with the grandparent. While most
| people don't care too much for eGPU (?), I'm sure if we let
| people innovate, good things will come.
|
| My dream is much smaller. I just want whatever hardware
| circuitry is required to accomplish the scenario where a
| phone that is plugged in to a good power source runs
| directly from the wall, shutting off battery charge
| completely, not trickle charging all day and night.
| eternityforest wrote:
| Pretty sure most any phone already has the hardware for
| software defined charging. Android just doesn't have an
| API call for it, unless they do and I just haven't heard
| yet.
|
| Maybe we should be filing feature requests for it;
| MikusR wrote:
| And it was so bad they went back to microusb on 4
| ewoodrich wrote:
| All Galaxy S models were Micro USB until they switched to
| USB-C on the S8 series.
| RF_Savage wrote:
| One of the tragedies of USB-C is how it can be anything
| from dumb charging only to one's capable of 40GB/s data
| transfer among everything else.
| hgomersall wrote:
| It makes working out which hole to plug something in to
| rather tricky. Especially when the little lightning bolt
| or other graphics have rubbed off.
| lproven wrote:
| Seconded.
|
| And even before then.
|
| I have an M1 Macbook Air which will only output video
| over one of its 2 USB-C ports, not the other. There is
| nothing visible on the case or in the OS to indicate
| this.
|
| I have had an Arm and an AMD Thinkpad which both have
| only dual USB-C, and both unpredictably switch between
| one or the other being bootable, with no discenable
| pattern.
| lloeki wrote:
| > I have an M1 Macbook Air which will only output video
| over one of its 2 USB-C ports, not the other.
|
| Weird, ever since I had USB-C based Mac Mini or MacBook
| (two Intel, two M1) they could reliably output video on
| any of the two, three, or four ports (as long as I don't
| go past the limit). They're essentially symmetric on all
| features.
| LoganDark wrote:
| This. People can get away with implementing really,
| really bad USB-C ports and you're just supposed to expect
| that no two USB-C ports are born equal.
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| My Lenovo Y700 does passthrough power. It also has a mode
| where it only starts charging if the battery is below 40%
| and it'll stop at 60%
|
| Unfortunately its not a phone. Its a mini tablet. But I
| find the size ideal for daily use - browsing,reading
| pdfs, small sketches . (no SIM slot though)
| RetroTechie wrote:
| > It also has a mode where it only starts charging if the
| battery is below 40% and it'll stop at 60%
|
| Wish every battery powered device would have a setting
| for this.
|
| As opposed to _always_ charging when charger is plugged
| in, and _always_ charging up to 100% (non-configurable).
| yyyk wrote:
| >I really hope we start to see phones and tablets which have
| >1 USB port
|
| We're much more likely to get phones with 0 USB ports
| (justified by 'security', 'water proofness' or 'simplicity')
| where the only charging is wireless.
| nimish wrote:
| DP can only be passively converted to HDMI if the source uses
| DisplayPort++/Dual Mode, which is not supported by the
| DisplayPort Alt Mode over USB-C spec (Why? Who knows).
|
| Every usb-c to HDMI adapter has to actively convert the
| signals which is why one end is usually much larger than the
| other.
| eternityforest wrote:
| Isn't there not enough pins for that? Plus, it would just
| be needless extra hassle, when their goal is to just not
| have HDMI at all eventually.
| chx wrote:
| Click the big plus on
| https://us.starlabs.systems/pages/starlite-specification next
| to connectivity to see
|
| > USB-C Interface: Display Port (DP Alt Mode)
| MichaelZuo wrote:
| There's 2 USB-C ports but it's worded so that possibly only 1
| port could support DP out. So even considering just the USB-C
| ports, there is a likelihood they cheaped out somewhat.
|
| Did you assume it definitely will support DP out for both?
| paxys wrote:
| And it already has dual USB-C, just without video out support.
| Pretty disappointing.
| chx wrote:
| It has DP alt mode support you need to click the big + on
| https://us.starlabs.systems/pages/starlite-specification next
| to connectivity
| lelanthran wrote:
| I also scrolled down to look for this (in the market for a
| low-power long-lasting laptop that will be 99% docked).
|
| I might get one anyway, if they ship to SA. At least micro
| HMDI is still dockable.
|
| (Just out of curiosity - does anyone know of any other option
| to use an external display with this tablet? Are wireless
| displays a thing?)
| RF_Savage wrote:
| USB-C DisplayPort altmode would have required one to two extra
| chips for the port supporting it and some extra routing on the
| PCB.
|
| So cost and complexity increase. MicroHDMI does suck, but
| despite that raspberry pi 4 has two of them.
| chx wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37171823
| eternityforest wrote:
| The Pi also put a nasty old microUSB on the Pi Pico so I'm
| not surprised they used a crappy connector, when there's way
| less reason to still use MicroUSB.
|
| They're a great company but MicroUSB? Really?
| RF_Savage wrote:
| At the time Pi Pico came out MicroUSB connectors were
| around ten times cheaper than USB-C. Now it has dropped to
| 2 - 4 times cheaper. In volume those differences do matter.
| dheera wrote:
| USB-C is equally bad. I really wish they would have the rubber
| housing of the USB-C go inside the case like an IEC power
| connector. I break about a USB-C cable every week. Broke one
| today just by putting it in my backpack while connected to a
| power brick.
|
| Power bricks of the 1990s didn't have this problem. The barrel
| connectors were almost indestructible. You could drop bricks on
| VGA connectors and they'd still work.
| kennydude wrote:
| Barrel connectors I found always fail within 18 months for a
| lot of laptops I've known people buy (mostly from cheap
| brands such as Acer).
|
| While not saying USB-C is a great choice instead. Personally
| I just wish everyone could have generic magnetic Magsafe
| style connectors.
| jwells89 wrote:
| Barrel connectors are easily one of my most disliked. Even
| if they don't fail outright, they grow loose and finicky
| over time even if you're trying to take care of them. On
| top of that, there's numerous different sizes and pole
| configurations so even if an adapter is physically
| compatible, you have to look closely to make sure you're
| not going to fry your device.
|
| Just terrible overall.
| lproven wrote:
| Wow.
|
| I have never yet broken a USB-C cable. Not one.
|
| When I used an iPhone for a couple of years, I went through
| approximately a Lightning cable per month, sometimes more. At
| one point I took a _carrier bag_ of broken Lightning cables
| to the electronics recycling.
|
| You must treat equipment exceptionally roughly.
| kimbernator wrote:
| Yeah, I've never once seen a USB-C cable break in that the
| physical connector itself was damaged. I've been through
| plenty that just seem to stop reliably connecting if they
| are in high-motion environments (the cable connecting my
| phone to my car's entertainment system, for instance)
|
| I will say that I really wish they had managed to not have
| that middle section sticking up in the female connectors -
| cleaning out my phone's USB-C port is about 20x harder than
| cleaning out a lighting port because I feel like I'm going
| to break that little thing in the middle.
| lloeki wrote:
| I am full USB-C. I have a kid. Mine are treated _very_
| roughly. Not a single one ever broke. Comparatively,
| microusb has died on me quite a lot from regular usage, and
| always on the device side, which is so much worse.
|
| (Now the cat chewing on cables in another matter xD)
| smcleod wrote:
| I haven't seen one of those in many many years! I wish HDMI in
| general would die and let displayport take it place.
| karmakaze wrote:
| What's the practical difference? With USB-C there's power
| delivery. DisplayPort has..?
| smcleod wrote:
| USB-C is the connector / cable, DisplayPort is one protocol
| that can run within such a cable. HDMI (a proprietary
| licensed protocol) can also. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
| DisplayPort#Comparison_with_HD...
| cirelli94 wrote:
| I've read this article from HN about it:
| https://hackaday.com/2023/07/11/displayport-a-better-
| video-i... It's video done right!
| chx wrote:
| DisplayPort has MST.
| [deleted]
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > DisplayPort has..?
|
| Consistently good colors. Sometimes even PC monitors won't
| negotiate properly with the PC and start displaying washed
| out colors. IIRC this had to be forced on a Raspberry Pi on
| the PI side. Not all monitors can be adjusted.
|
| Consistently no under/overscan. For some reason, the TVs we
| had in conference rooms figured it would be smart to cut
| the borders of the image and zoom in, so you get missing
| bits and whatever's left is a blurry mess.
|
| For the TV situation, you usually don't have a full remote
| to adjust it, if it even supports that. You often don't
| have time to look up things in the TV's typically crappy
| menu system. I've usually found the option to disable over
| scan, but using full-range RGB seems less common.
|
| Also, HDMI seems to lag DisplayPort capabilities when it
| comes to higher resolutions and refresh rates. When my 2013
| MBP came out, it could drive a 4k@60 screen over DP. HDMI
| required the 2.0 version to do that, which, IIRC, came much
| later.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| >Also, HDMI seems to lag DisplayPort capabilities when it
| comes to higher resolutions and refresh rates.
|
| I think that one very much depends on when you chose to
| look at it. HDMI 2.1 has more bandwidth than DisplayPort
| 1.4, enough to do 4k@120 which DP1.4 wouldn't be able to
| do it without dropping color down to 4:2:0. DisplayPort
| 2.0 devices are starting to come out, but even Nvidia's
| RTX 4000 series still do not have DisplayPort 2.0 (but do
| have HDMI 2.1). While TV started supporting HDMI 2.1
| around 2019, with the PS5 and Xbox Series X having HDMI
| 2.1 ports.
|
| So while DisplayPort may be ahead now with DisplayPort
| 2.0, HDMI was ahead for at least 4 years with HDMI 2.1
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| That's a fair point. I admit I was judging by the
| availability on the PC side (I don't follow the console
| market).
|
| Although, if I'm not mistaken, my particular PC monitor
| initially didn't support HDMI 2.0, even though it's a 4k
| panel. There was a further revision which included it. I
| have that revision, but support is still somewhat wonky,
| in that it can't seem to switch on its own from 2.0 to
| 1.4b.
| ThatPlayer wrote:
| Display support is always last in this chicken-and-egg
| problem. As far as I know, there's still no DisplayPort
| 2.0 supporting displays, so any of the higher end
| monitors require display stream compression. I can't even
| get a DisplayPort 2.0 MST hub so I can chain multiple
| 1440p@144 monitors. Which is definitely something that
| HDMI can't do.
| karmakaze wrote:
| Ok so that sounds like DP has better negotiation protocol
| spec and/or implementations.
|
| I've only encountered overscan on TVs not monitors, but I
| don't give conference room presentations, which would be
| very annoying. On Macs there compensation for that.
|
| I've had trouble with colors where it uses YPbPr rather
| than RGB, but that seems to be an Apple thing where it's
| done on purpose for non-Apple-approved displays and it
| happens for both HDMI and DP. Generating a custom EDID
| profile fixes that. Can't recall having trouble with
| color range, sometimes the display has a setting but the
| default always looked better to me.
|
| I've used 4k@60 HDMI just fine (and 4k@30 on an early
| Apple adapter), but more often use 1080p anyway. I use
| USB-C with my 4k displays which likely runs DP on them.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > Ok so that sounds like DP has better negotiation
| protocol spec and/or implementations.
|
| Right. So... DP is better than HDMI?
|
| The color issue I had was not with a Mac but with an HP
| laptop on an HP monitor. My understanding is that there's
| something about "broadcast colors" or something, which is
| "regular" RGB only with a narrower range. I think the PC
| thought the monitor was a TV with a limited range, which
| the monitor was not.
|
| With the TVs I plug into, it's usually harder to judge
| since their color rendition tends to be all over the
| place anyway and tend to have the reverse issue (too much
| contrast).
|
| I remember the overscan control on the mac, but it still
| was a PITA to have to fiddle with that instead of, you
| know, just plugging the screen in and being in business.
|
| While I've also had numerous positive experiences with
| HDMI where things seemingly "just worked", I've never had
| an issue with DP. It _always_ worked. Hell, even my
| gaming GPU, which came out a while after HDMI 2, and
| supported it out of the box, connected to my monitor with
| full HDMI 2 support, _still_ has weird colors compared to
| DP. No tweaking in the AMD drivers managed to get me the
| proper output, so I went and bought a cheap Chinese DP
| KVM instead. Which worked with no fuss.
|
| All this makes me automatically pick DP if given the
| choice, and discount any computer or screen that only
| does HDMI. Which makes it pretty tough to buy a TV, so I
| just watch movies on my computer monitor.
| smcleod wrote:
| Yeah totally agree - I've had quite a few situations
| where a monitor or tv looks blurry and washed out with
| HDMI and it's immediately fixed with a DP cable.
| rollcat wrote:
| > I wish HDMI in general would die and let displayport take
| it place.
|
| That would be an interesting thing for the video production
| industry. Basically the entire market is divided between
| "professional" equipment, in which SDI continues to dominate
| (with some movement towards SMPTE 2110 aka IP), and "amateur"
| equipment which is _all_ HDMI - with very few products on the
| boundary and supporting both connectors.
|
| Consumer grade digital cameras have only recently (10 years,
| maybe less) started being able to output the live video feed
| over HDMI. Before that, believe me or not I've stumbled upon
| MANY camera models from 2013 or before that had an HDMI port,
| but all it was good for was displaying pictures from the
| memory card on a TV.
|
| It would certainly make life easier in a lot of "small
| streamer" setups. Currently, if you don't want to torture
| your camera's battery, you need to get a silly (often third-
| party) "dummy battery" that you can (hopefully!) plug into an
| ordinary USB power supply; and on top of that, a separate
| mini/micro HDMI -> full HDMI cable to plug into a capture
| card. If you could reduce that to a single USB-C with PD and
| DP - trust me, every silly cable you can eliminate from your
| setup is an enormous win.
|
| Even better, if these cameras could talk the regular USB
| "webcam" protocol in addition to DP, eliminating the capture
| card for the overwhelmingly common setup of "I just want to
| look very good on video calls".
|
| But that opens a can of worms: in any non-trivial setup, a
| camera (one camera) is merely a small piece of a much more
| elaborate puzzle. Even seemingly simple setups end up
| converting the signal back&forth between some crazy stuff. On
| one job, we needed to run an SDI _or_ HDMI cable between the
| floors, but couldn 't do either because the building was
| untouchable; so we've used a couple of HDMI -> HDBaseT
| converters to run the signal over existing Ethernet cables.
| Turns out, it was no longer possible to convert the resulting
| HDMI signal again to SDI (we've tried many converters, all
| failed), which limited our choice of video mixers. Would the
| signal make it through if it originated as DP? Your guess is
| as good as mine.
|
| Broadcast is a strange place. I still laugh whenever I think
| of Quad-SDI; only the broadcast industry could ever come up
| with that. Things need to work with one another and even if
| every single person in the world agreed that HDMI must die,
| starting today, I'm fairly certain we'd still see new
| equipment being made in 2033 that supports it.
| Thews wrote:
| I have spent the last few months doing a deep dive on
| broadcast / audio engineer standards. The lack of
| reliability and strange standards are interesting...
|
| It seems like the last few standards started really robust
| and open because of the lack of compatibility, and then
| greed got involved and vendors just slipped in something to
| make it difficult cross connect. I assume so people would
| have to buy more of their stuff.
|
| The focus on "realtime" makes the standards have worse
| quality in practice (bad handling of dropped or bad bits),
| and makes it much harder for the IP based standards to be
| routed (network congestion from high bitrate through
| uplinks). WebRTC by comparison can be quite nice.
|
| I seriously don't have any hope for sanity in that market.
| ryantse wrote:
| From <https://us.starlabs.systems/pages/starlite-
| specification>: Micro HDMI USB Type C 3.2
| with Power Delivery 3.0 USB Type C 3.2 with Power
| Delivery 3.0 Micro SD Memory Card Reader 3.5mm
| Headphone Jack HDMI version: 2.0 USB-C Interface:
| Display Port (DP Alt Mode) USB version: 3.2 Gen 2 (up to
| 10 Gbps)
|
| Maybe I am missing something, but it seems to have Display Port
| for their USB-C?
| predictabl3 wrote:
| It's very odd that their 12-port dock also shows a DP port in
| the image, but it's not listed in the specs.
|
| But the 2x HDMI are visible + listed. :(
| eternityforest wrote:
| Oh nice! That makes it a lot more interesting
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| 1st class Linux support tablet, coreboot firmware, & decent specs
| for ~$500? I consider that a great deal. I'm very keen on this.
| [deleted]
| Turskarama wrote:
| I can't help but feel like an x86 tablet is a non starter, the
| architecture is just too power thirsty compared to ARM.
| not_your_vase wrote:
| I use an RPi3 with 7 inch touchscreen to listen to webradio all
| the time. Just the other day I was curious, and measured its
| power consumption. My laptop with Ryzen 4700u with turned off
| screen uses less amount of power than the Rpi with screen on
| (~6W for laptop vs ~7.5W for RPi). I'm really thinking about
| ditching my RPi's as a radio and even as pihole, as my laptop
| can do much more while still using close to 0% CPU.
|
| Sure, the screen on/off comparison makes this measurement a bit
| unfair, but calling x86/x64 energy inefficient doesn't sound
| particularly correct.
| speedgoose wrote:
| One major difference that could explain the power consumption
| is that the 4700u uses a 7nm process, and the old RPi3 uses a
| 40nm process.
| ychompinator wrote:
| It's a 6 watt processor that still scores well in benchmarks,
| very well picked.
| ponorin wrote:
| Good luck finding an ARM tablet with an open device tree that
| you can compile/install mainline linux onto.
| madduci wrote:
| Somehow people keep forgetting about this. ARM support sucks
| till today
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _the architecture is just too power thirsty compared to ARM_
|
| Maybe the architecture, but not the products.
|
| You can consume 3 watts on some Intel based laptops.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| I have a tablet with a i5-7200u (2016) with a small-ish ~34WHr
| (originally, well worn since!) battery that gets 7 hours usage
| easy. How is this "power hungry"? For an ancient quad core &
| inefficient old storage drive.
|
| As with 90% of everything, people take a bunch of highly
| visible indicators to decide their opinions & then shit on
| anything & everything that doesn't meet their set conception.
| People hate Electron because they think of Slack, but Slack has
| shit ass architecture. Dump it's web data and you'll find
| dozens of multi-megabyte indexeddb databases with mostly
| duplicate data. It's just a shit app. You can build shit apps
| in anything. But vscode being slick fast & smooth doesn't
| register for anyone, seemingly carries no weight. The negative
| conceptions dominate & rule, are the things that get posted,
| actively, and with energy. It's a damned shame.
| zlg_codes wrote:
| I tried VSCode on a Librem 14 by Purism. It has a tenth gen
| Core i7 with 12 threads. With only very basic essential
| extensions like syntax, Git integration, and a Vim mode, I
| could type faster than the view updated.
|
| Electron may be great for people who want to write Web apps,
| but browsers are RAM and CPU hungry beasts compared to the
| GUI toolkits they're trying to replace.
|
| In short, which environments are running VSCode smoothly? Do
| I need next gen hardware to run a damn IDE smoothly?
|
| Web apps have some advantages, but performance is nowhere in
| that list.
| chx wrote:
| This is an Intel Atom renamed those have been used for tablets
| before and Gracemont is supposedly even better?
| voidbert wrote:
| I don't know much about peak power consumption of these chips,
| but they are crazy efficient when idling / having little load.
| Plus, ARM support still sucks :-(
| rodgerd wrote:
| A Surface Go or Surface Pro, which this is essentially a clone
| of, will happily run for a school/business day, and that's with
| the weight of Windows on it.
| repler wrote:
| You can run Linux on it: https://github.com/linux-
| surface/linux-surface
| ashald wrote:
| Which gives you an hour or two of battery life, and
| effectively no camera support.
|
| I have one, running Linux on it, love it and consider best
| Linux device I ever had had, but I wish there were fewer
| quirks.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _Which gives you an hour or two of battery life_
|
| Interesting, but that must be some bad configuration,
| something that must be fixed on that specific line of
| tablets. It is not necessary on Linux.
| froggertoaster wrote:
| Agreed - ARM put x86 on the clock, and Apple Silicon - the best
| implementation of ARM yet - is the death knell of x86. Every
| opinion to the contrary feels like cope, because it's coming,
| and fast.
| speed_spread wrote:
| A CPU is not a computer. Apple does not sell its CPUs to
| other manufacturers. A single vendor cannot supply solutions
| satisfying every person and every business requiring
| computers, no matter how good their tech is. Fast ARM merely
| keeps Apple relevant. It is not such an unfair advantage that
| everything else dies.
| pulse7 wrote:
| Latest Intel chips are faster than Apple Silicon in single
| and multi-thread benchmarks... (they use more power, but they
| are faster...)
| TylerE wrote:
| These days I've started to care a lot more about power per
| watt than raw numbers. Watts = heat = fans = noise.
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| You realize we're commenting on a post about a fanless
| laptop running Intel CPU?
| robotnikman wrote:
| x86 is pretty power efficient. Looks like its using an Intel
| Alder lake CPU, which means it has e-cores which can be even
| more power efficient.
| ewzimm wrote:
| Even better, it's the N series which is all e-cores. They're
| fast enough, and there's no worry about the p-cores wasting
| battery in a tablet.
| runeks wrote:
| According to this comparison the performance per watt is
| roughly the same for the CPU in this tablet (Intel N200) and
| the Apple M1:
| https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5178vs4104/Intel-N200-v...
| urduntupu wrote:
| Is this any good for regular full stack programming, running a
| couple of docker containers?
| mhitza wrote:
| Yes, performance is very close to i5-8250U (
| https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/3042vs5178/Intel-i5-825...
| ), which was release at the end of 2017. I have this in my
| laptop that I use for work, VM's, IDEs and containers are
| running all the time on my system.
|
| Works great, even if I have all CPU mitigations enabled, turbo
| boosting disabled, and running in powersave mode. What I do to
| avoid the fan from getting audible. However, with all the
| options I mentioned enable (especially enforcing a strict
| powersave profile/max frequency/etc) you'll get a bit of
| latency here and there; which I can put up with because I hate
| to hear the fans spin. With a fanless design, a better power
| profile (6W TDP vs 15W TDP), I wouldn't constrict my CPU to
| such extents.
|
| To compare it in relative performance terms, the Apple M1 is
| ~3.8x times more performant than it (if that helps).
| delphi4711 wrote:
| It has more than enough ram, but the cpu and gpu will probably
| slow you down, but that depends on what you are used to :).
|
| But it's sold out already.
| Havoc wrote:
| Depends on what you put in the containers ;)
| hereonout2 wrote:
| I can't see anything about storage, does this have an SSD and if
| so how large? Looks very interesting to me, I'm just not ready to
| give up storage like most of the Chromebook options.
| pja wrote:
| It's M.2 2242 Gen3 PCIe NVMe, 512Gb in the base spec,
| configurable up to 2Tb, but presumably end user replaceable.
|
| https://starlabs.systems/pages/starlite-specification
| hereonout2 wrote:
| Missed that thanks, certainly piques my interest at this
| price
| keyle wrote:
| Somewhat related - will we ever see linux on old iPads?
|
| Old iPads can't get updated anymore, they can't easily browse the
| web, apps can't get updated or reinstalled... Basically recycle
| material or dust catchers.
|
| I'd like to jail break or whatever my old iPads and have them as
| simple linux tablets.
| msgilligan wrote:
| Yeah, it's really a shame. I have the original iPad and the
| hardware remains solid. If I could have an updated browser that
| could display modern websites without crashing, I would still
| use it.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| Another option is to create more progressive enhancement
| websites which work with such devices.
|
| Giving older devices new life is part of the reason I started
| developing my framework.
|
| For example, the websites linked in my profile are backwards
| compatible all the way to Netscape 3.0, while still
| supporting more modern features like in-place updating vote
| counters and adding dialogs to a page without reloading it.
|
| And LLM use will only make this type of website easier to
| build, once you can ask, for example, "operator, please
| ensure the website markup is compatible with my particular
| device, which is an iPad 2 running iOS 6.0."
|
| I think we're about to experience an amazing renaissance of
| the Web, with sites and services which bend over backwards to
| accommodate each particular user, device, and abilities
| combination, rather than telling the long tail to fuck off.
|
| And I think it's the right way to go. Each device-user
| deserves to be catered to and supported, the same way we
| support wheelchairs and baby strollers with elevators and
| ramps, even though they're less than 1% of the traffic.
| djbusby wrote:
| Had to get regulations for wheelchair accommodations.
| TheDong wrote:
| I agree that these devices should be supported, but the
| only entity that can actually support them is apple.
|
| It's not enough for sites to work, the underlying software
| also has to be secure enough to handle the internet. That
| can come from Apple providing software updates to the
| device to keep it secure, or Apple providing a supported
| mechanism for someone to install Linux, or some other
| operating system that can be updated.
|
| Unfortunately, apple does not provide security updates or
| any way to actually "unlock" them, so they are unsupported.
| Tailoring your site to work on these insecure clients is in
| a sense encouraging them to venture onto the internet,
| encouraging them to try other sites which might have
| untrusted 3rd party ads that pwn them and steal their bank
| cookies..... In that sense, it's more responsible to make
| your site only work with newer secure browsers than the
| reverse.
| forgotmypw17 wrote:
| For orphaned devices, this is impossible, because Apple
| has already decided to abandon them. I think they can be
| still be useful for non-critical information browsing
| within a closed network of safe websites.
|
| I think the accessibility necessity of supporting older
| devices is often underrated severely, while the need for
| security is overstated. New, currently supported devices
| people use day-to-day are also exploitable.
| simonh wrote:
| Those machines have 256 MB of RAM. Is there any way to run a
| modern web browser in that?
| msgilligan wrote:
| I had to double-check that, I thought it was 512 MB. Yeah,
| that's not very much.
|
| I also recall that the final iOS version for that device
| (iOS 5.x or 5.1.1) left less memory for apps and I
| regretted agreeing to that upgrade.
|
| I really wish I could install a minimal Linux and the best
| minimal browser available. That would at least be an
| improvement over the doorstop that I have.
| RajT88 wrote:
| One tab at a time
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| lite.cnn.com
| reustle wrote:
| Or even just as a second display
| threeseed wrote:
| Luna Display [1] works with iPads running at minimum iOS
| 12.1.
|
| Which means iPad mini 2, iPad Air, iPad Pro 1, iPad 5 and
| greater.
|
| [1] https://astropad.com/product/lunadisplay
| lproven wrote:
| iOS 12 is way too new.
|
| I have a Retina iPad stuck on iOS 9, which is now
| essentially an ebook reader and movie player.
|
| I had two of them stuck on iOS 5. Perfectly working,
| cosmetically perfect, lots of battery life, but bricks.
|
| Whereas I have a 1st gen Pro and a 5th gen (when the
| stock iPad got the Air form-factor) which both run the
| latest iPadOS, but their battery life is now a couple of
| hours if that. They're nearly useless.
|
| I had a new battery fitted to the 5th gen. It is no
| better but now the screen is damaged with multiple
| artifacts visible.
|
| There is no battery replacement for the Pro: it's too big
| and too fragile.
|
| In other words, in important terms, the old ones _were
| BETTER_ but they are now useless because of an outdated
| OS.
| TylerE wrote:
| Newer macs and iPads can do this. Totally seamless... mouse
| moves over to the 2nd screen, etc. totally wireless.
| [deleted]
| mark_l_watson wrote:
| That would be nice. For now, I really like using the iPad Blink
| app as a mosh/ssh client to a leased Linux VPS. With mosh, I
| can be in a Linux dev environment instantly and adding tmux I
| have several screens to bounce between. Adding a great Emacs
| setup lets me edit markdown manuscripts and code in Python and
| Common Lisp.
|
| I am at a relative's home doing a hospice thing sitting with a
| loved one who is dying. I only have a small iPad Pro with me,
| and that is sufficient, but only because I am using my VPS.
|
| Having just normal iPad apps does not cut it for me.
| reocha wrote:
| Some work has been done:
| https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Apple_iPad_1G_(apple-ipad...
| fsflover wrote:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25172883
| [deleted]
| comechao wrote:
| The 80s kid in me when I see such a powerful machine being just
| electronic waste cries
| anderspitman wrote:
| Would love to see it, but my guess would be only if there's
| ever regulation to force Apple to allow it under climate
| concerns or right to repair type policy.
| fjfuvucucuc wrote:
| Or you know, you lot could stop giving them money.
| kushie wrote:
| oh, i don't think tech professionals or software
| enthusiasts are majority share holders of apple's bottom
| line
| fjfuvucucuc wrote:
| [flagged]
| ikurei wrote:
| Whenever I read this kind of comment, specially about
| Apple, I always wonder: What are you suggesting we do?
|
| If the answer is "just don't have a tablet and buy a
| FairPhone or a feature phone, have less tech", I think
| that's coherent.
|
| But if the answer is just "don't buy Apple, but continue to
| buy", I'd say they're all just as bad at best, way worse in
| general. Apple devices have a longer supported life,
| although others tend to be more hackable.
| simonh wrote:
| I think there's a reasonable argument that manufacturers
| should be required to open up hardware when they no longer
| support it. The problem is I doubt that would achieve what
| most people here seem to expect fur older devices.
|
| You might be able to run a really basic Linux on the older
| devices, but their very limited RAM will severely constrain
| what you can run on them.
|
| The native OS is so optimised for the hardware, trying to get
| better performance, or even matching power consumption on
| generic Linux is just not realistic.
|
| Frankly other than for hobbyist purposes the last version of
| the native OS is probably as functional as they're likely to
| get.
|
| Having said all that, more recent iPads are powerful machines
| that are likely to still be very capable fur as long as they
| will run. Asahi Linux is compatible with M-series hardware.
|
| So while think getting latest gen performance such as modern
| browsing out of legacy kit is a pipe dream whatever Apple
| did, I think there are real possibilities going forward.
| anderspitman wrote:
| There's a lot of use cases outside traditional tablet
| functionality, such as running a webserver or turning those
| excellent Apple screens into a secondary monitor.
| yencabulator wrote:
| How many heavily-NDA'd Broadcom chips are in those things? Good
| luck getting working drivers, even if you manage to jailbreak
| it: https://projectsandcastle.org/status
| okasaki wrote:
| It looks nice.
|
| The only thing I'd change is have a 4:3 screen (or at least 3:2).
| The extra height really matters on small screens.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| I had been monitoring that Intel N200, periodically checking news
| about low consumption chips:
|
| Jan 2023 ; 0.01u tech ; cache 384 2048 6144 kb ; 6W TDP ; 4 cores
| and threads
|
| Previously used (
| https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?page=2&q=Intel+n... )
| in some "Google Nissa" (could not find further details about what
| it is), "Micro-Star ADL-N Cubi N MS-B0A9" minicomputer, "Asus
| MiniPc PN42", "Lenovo IdeaPad 82XB"...
|
| With a 38Wh battery, 12 hours seem optimistic but achievable
| under many conditions of power economy.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _" Google Nissa" (could not find further details about what
| it is)_
|
| I could finally find some references: according to Ryan Whitwam
| ( https://hothardware.com/news/premium-chromebook-x-laptops-
| po... ),
|
| > _Chromebook X machines will have to be built on one of four
| hardware platforms with high-end x86 CPUs: AMD Zen 2+ (Skyrim),
| AMD Zen 3 (Guybrush), or Intel Core 12th Gen (Brya & Nissa).
| The Nissa chips are the Intel N-series_
|
| so the N100, N200 and i3-N300
| varispeed wrote:
| I was going to say "nope", but at below $500? Seems viable.
|
| I just don't like this tablet factor. It's a poorly engineered
| design - a flimsy top heavy structure that takes a lot of space?
| What could go wrong. I can't count how many times I accidentally
| knocked my Surface off the table or when I needed to type
| something quickly and didn't have enough space on the desk and
| getting that thing on the lap... eh.
| bArray wrote:
| Reminds me of the Pine Tab (v1) with the contact pins at the
| bottom, fold-up keyboard, etc. Having an Intel processor would
| make me heaps more confident about good kernel support out of the
| box. The A64 by Pine is essentially abandoned for Linux kernel
| development.
|
| This device looks great, I would just take care expecting too
| much from that keyboard. It looks almost identical to the Pine
| Tab keyboard and that was not great.
| unregistereddev wrote:
| Sadly, Pine has a long history of using poorly-supported
| chipsets and doing nothing to improve support. I want to like
| the company, and their hardware designs show a lot of promise,
| but ultimately they do not stand behind their product.
|
| It's truly a shame. Their products have potential and could
| build a huge hobbyist community behind them, but extremely few
| people have both the skills and the time to troubleshoot buggy
| kernel modules.
|
| I agree that StarLite's Intel processor will probably work a
| lot better.
| cookiengineer wrote:
| Honestly when I am looking at their other models like the
| StarBook and StarFighter, I have a weird feeling that I cannot
| repair them once the battery or other parts breaks down. They
| have an internal battery similar to the format of A1278 MacBooks,
| which makes my spidey sense go off that it's not easily
| repairable without breaking a ribbon flex cable.
|
| I don't need a bleeding edge gaming GPU, I don't need USB4, I
| don't need Thunderbolt. These are optional extras for me, I've
| given up on them already.
|
| Currently I am kind of stuck with the old T440p because of this,
| all other laptops that I bought in the last 10 years have died
| already with no chance of repairing or fixing them - either
| because of non available parts, or because literally the GPU
| melted down (happens more often on MacBooks than one might think,
| apparently).
|
| From Ultrabooks to even MacBooks, I've had them all, from Dell to
| HP, Apple and back... all died eventually and I switched back to
| my T440p in 2019. This old laptop still lives, can be repaired,
| has a replacement parts community [1], and doesn't break when I
| let it fall down on the floor. But it's now so outdated that I
| cannot even order battery packs anymore, because they will arrive
| with less than 20% capacity condition when they're being sold as
| "New" because they're even not produced anymore and are stored
| for too long.
|
| I think what I want is something like the MNT Reform laptop [2],
| where the battery cells are replaceable 18650 standard cells. But
| without the problems that come with ARM. I've been thinking about
| even getting an older Thinkpad just so that I can just let the
| guy from xyte.ch [3] build a better one out of it.
|
| Honestly I've spent more than 10k over the years for crappy
| Ultrabook laptops or MacBooks, which all died up on me and I'm
| sick of spending so much money when my laptop from 2013 still
| works.
|
| Why can't we have nice replaceable battery packs, RAM, and m2
| SSDs anymore? I mean, not even the Framework laptop has a
| replaceable battery pack? WHY?
|
| Am I the only one wanting this?
|
| [1] https://www.thinkstore24.de
|
| [2] https://shop.mntre.com/products/mnt-reform
|
| [3]
| http://web.archive.org/web/20221130010517/https://www.xyte.c...
| (currently has php problems)
| clhodapp wrote:
| You must have missed on their product pages where they say:
|
| "Laptops designed for open-source software need open
| warranties. Our 1-year limited warranty allows you to take your
| computer apart, replace parts, install an upgrade, and use any
| operating system and even your firmware, all without voiding
| the warranty."
|
| They also post disassembly guides for their products and, so
| far at least, they don't seem to use super fragile ribbon
| cables for the batteries. Here's the one for the last gen of
| the Star Lite: https://support.starlabs.systems/kb/guides/star-
| lite-mk-ii-s...
| cycomanic wrote:
| AFAIK pretty much all (most?) the recent thinkpads have
| relatively easily replaceable batteries. I just replaced the
| battery in my X1 carbon (although it's a 2016 model so not so
| recent) and it was really straight forward.
| BHSPitMonkey wrote:
| > Why can't we have nice replaceable battery packs, RAM, and m2
| SSDs anymore? I mean, not even the Framework laptop has a
| replaceable battery pack? WHY?
|
| https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Battery+Replacement+Guide/85
| asddubs wrote:
| I think they meant batteries you can swap without taking the
| machine apart, like old laptops had
| Aerbil313 wrote:
| Taking a framework apart is very easy though.
| yencabulator wrote:
| Turns out the 16" Framework can have an external battery,
| they designed the connector to also support that.
|
| https://www.theverge.com/2023/3/30/23612467/framework-
| laptop...
| fsflover wrote:
| I wonder if it can run Qubes OS and PureOS.
| pakyr wrote:
| Do they design/manufacture these themselves, or are they rebadged
| from an ODM? And if if it's the latter, which ODM are they using?
| Klonoar wrote:
| Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but they're actually one
| of the few vendors who design their own stuff - e.g, their
| Starbook line is their own, not some Clevo junk.
|
| The wait times last I checked are dreadful but that could've
| changed. I really like their approach though, whenever I can
| finally get away from Apple's stuff they're likely what I'll
| opt for (unless System76 knocks it out of the park with their
| custom one...).
| PrivateButts wrote:
| A bit ago I did a bit of an experiment with an old surface
| tablet, where I threw some linux distros at it to see what the
| experience was. I tried Ubuntu, Manjaro, and Fedora, and all were
| extremely janky to downright broken. On screen keyboard was
| completely broken with Wayland, with some apps like Firefox just
| not popping it open, to others ignoring input. X had trouble with
| screen rotation. Fedora wouldn't let me past the login screen
| unless I connected a keyboard, which was compounded with a bug
| that was causing the screen to lock every sixty seconds. Manjaro
| ended up lasting the longest, but at that point I had just given
| up trying to fix things and reverted to using the Surface as a
| laptop with a touch screen.
|
| I don't know how much touch screen only computers are considered
| during development of desktop environments and display servers,
| my experience left me with the distinct feeling that I had gone
| way outside of the bounds of the target user of these
| applications. Maybe I just had bad luck. Hopefully if this is
| truly an under-served side of the Linux desktop experience, a
| successful product like this will help push the ball forward on
| improving support for this niche. I wonder how much the
| popularity of the Steam Deck is pushing the KDE team to improve
| touch screen support as well.
| fboerman wrote:
| interesting because I have been running archlinux on a surface
| pro 7 and it works flawlessly appart from the camera. I use the
| linux-surface kernel, instructions can be found here:
| https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-
| surface/wiki/Installa.... Highly recommend it!
| rdschouw wrote:
| I am using a Surface Go 2 with Arch / Wayland / Gnome. I use
| the Linux surface kernel and all of the hardware works except
| the IR camera and webcam. Overall, it is a good experience. I
| love using it as a notebook with the pen and Xjournal++.
| Battery life is 7 hours or so.
|
| The OSK pops up when I need to. There is a Gnome extension to
| make it work better like adding ctrl, alt and cursor keys for
| instance.
|
| I also use Gnome extension to force apps to open maximized.
|
| I use it primarily as a tablet at home and a travel laptop for
| work. I am quite enamored with it.
| gumballindie wrote:
| > I wonder how much the popularity of the Steam Deck is pushing
| the KDE team to improve touch screen support as well.
|
| Works like a charm on my OLED touchscreen laptop. I am actually
| surprised by how better KDE looks compared to windows or macos
| and how stable it is (KDE version 5.27.4 that is).
| planede wrote:
| I'm using Debian Sid with KDE Plasma Wayland on an acer 2-in-1
| laptop/tablet. It works fine, Firefox needs to be started in
| "wayland" mode. The on-screen keyboard could be better, but it
| does pop up predictably. Screen rotation just works.
|
| edit: Touch controls also work, including gestures. It has a
| pressure sensitive stylus, which also works OOB.
| EGG_CREAM wrote:
| I have a surface with Ubuntu and the Surface Kernel
| (https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-surface) , and it works
| really wonderfully. I will say, before installing the Surface
| Kernel, it was very janky.
| brewdad wrote:
| I plan on putting MX Linux on an old Surface Pro tablet,
| probably in a couple weeks when I have some time. Any gotchas
| you encountered that I should be aware of?
| bootsmann wrote:
| Idk how recent you tried this but I had the entirely opposite
| experience with an old Asus transformer mini (which has similar
| detachable keyboard shenanigans as the surface). Ubuntu had
| some issues rotating the screen but Fedora worked out of the
| box. The only complaint was that sometimes you had to coax it
| to bring up the on-screen keyboard, but everything else, from
| screen rotation to the gnome finger swiping gestures worked
| really well in both laptop and tablet mode. Maybe its microsoft
| using a particularly strange hardware stack or just luck.
| no_time wrote:
| >On screen keyboard was completely broken with Wayland, with
| some apps like Firefox just not popping it open
|
| Did you check if FF was actually running in wayland mode? Not
| trying to blame you, the current situation is pretty dire. The
| only reliable way of finding out if something is actually using
| wayland is running xeyes and seeing whether the eyes move above
| the target window.
| fignews wrote:
| Been using wayland on Fedora for years and I don't know what
| you're talking about. Intel and AMD graphics here.
| danudey wrote:
| "Wayland" works fine, but as soon as you start mixing X11
| and Wayland apps, it starts getting complicated due to
| different levels of functionality support for the two APIs.
|
| I started running into them pretty fast when I added a 4K
| monitor to my Ubuntu 22.04 system and enabled fractional
| scaling. All of my Wayland apps look fine, and all of my
| XWayland clients look awful, blurry and obviously scaled.
| Working one by one to switch them over to native Wayland
| has been a hassle for various random reasons, most notably:
|
| * Slack: works from the icon in the taskbar, but when auto-
| started at login does so in X11 mode
|
| * VS Code: works fine when run from Terminal, but when
| launched from taskbar icon shows up as a different "app" in
| the taskbar. Launching from the terminal starts in X11 mode
|
| * Zoom: requires more setup in order to share screen. The
| Zoom UI for screen sharing doesn't work so it's not obvious
| how to _stop_ sharing screen. It also freezes or crashes
| all the time for no discernable reason, including locking
| up when joining some meetings three times in a row and then
| succeeding on the fourth time.
|
| So if you're not really leaning into what Wayland offers it
| works fine, but even just fractional scaling has been a
| four-month hassle to get things working as expected.
| hollerith wrote:
| I've been using fractional scaling and only native
| Wayland apps since May 2021 (on Fedora) though I don't
| use Slack, VS Code or Zoom.
|
| As you know, "native Wayland" means the app has been
| modified so that it can talk to the graphics hardware
| using the Wayland protocol.
|
| Emacs is the hardest of my apps to persuade to talk
| Wayland protocol because Fedora's "emacs" package was
| compiled without the code that talks Wayland.
|
| To persuade Chrome to talk Wayland protocol, I start it
| with specific command-line arguments, which used to cause
| bugs, but I haven't noticed any bugs for months.
| hollerith wrote:
| >running xeyes and seeing whether the eyes move above the
| target window
|
| Or running xlsclients
| voxadam wrote:
| > The only reliable way of finding out if something is
| actually using wayland is running xeyes and seeing whether
| the eyes move above the target window.
|
| In Firefox all you have to do is navigate to about:support
| and check verify that _Window Protocol_ shows _wayland_.
| deelowe wrote:
| I think the parent meant in general.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _> I don't know how much touch screen only computers are
| considered during development of desktop environments and
| display servers_
|
| Probably close to zero. Gnome/KDE devs daily drive
| desktops/laptops and for phones/tablets they don't run FOSS
| Linux devices but also iOS and Android.
|
| Desktop Linux is already a niche market, and FOSS Linux
| tablets/phones is even more niche. The only "Linux" built and
| polished for touch from the ground up is Android but I put
| Linux in commas for good reason there.
| amiga-workbench wrote:
| I just bought a ThinkPad X1 Tablet Gen 3. Everything works
| great, the on screen keyboard is actually functioning properly
| and appears on demand every time. Screen orientation is handled
| properly and promptly. The only let-down so far is battery
| life, but I need to make some adjustments to help there.
|
| I'm running the latest version of Fedora workstation, under
| wayland too.
|
| This thing is the only truly repairable tablet I've encountered
| so far, 8 screws and the display pops off, no glue, no can
| opener required like a Surface Pro. 9 screws to get the
| heatsink off (they're all captive) and you're at the full size
| NVME SSD.
|
| https://mos6581.com/pictures/thinkpad/x1-tablet.jpg
| algas wrote:
| I love my X1 tablet gen 1, but I need to repair the screen on
| it. Not sure if it's still true for the gen 3, but the gen 1
| had a lot of modular parts you could add, like an extra
| battery that also gives you an HDMI port. Plus, I had this
| ridiculously nice solid carrying case.
| Arnavion wrote:
| To answer the general point first:
|
| >I don't know how much touch screen only computers are
| considered during development of desktop environments and
| display servers
|
| Phosh, Plasma Mobile and SXMO are DEs for phones and tablets,
| so they support touch fine. I run Phosh (also on pmOS) on my
| phone and have none of the problems you described. GNOME is
| also making its own GNOME Mobile.
|
| ---
|
| Now, for your specific hardware: I don't know how old your "old
| surface tablet" is, but I run postmarketOS on the very first
| Surface RT and it works fine. It uses the kernel from [1] and
| requires a one-time semi-complicated procedure to bypass Secure
| Boot and switch away from Windows [2], and even then it has
| some issues with CPU scaling etc not supported. So I won't
| recommend it as a general-purpose Linux tablet, but it's good
| enough for what I use it for.
|
| >On screen keyboard was completely broken with Wayland
|
| It's a Tegra 3 chipset so I don't run a wayland compositor on
| it (it would need CPU rendering), just Xorg with i3. I haven't
| tried an OSK inside i3, but the OSK at boot time to enter the
| disk encryption password (unl0kr) works fine.
|
| If you do run wayland, wayland-native programs should be able
| to auto-launch the OSK because they will invoke the input-
| method protocol, and xwayland programs probably won't. This is
| the behavior I see on my phone running Phosh - firefox and foot
| (terminal) showing wayland windows trigger the OSK
| (squeekboard), whereas chromium using xwayland does not. But
| even then, chromium does respond to the OSK input when I
| manually trigger the OSK.
|
| >X had trouble with screen rotation.
|
| The grate kernel supports reading the tablet's accelerometer
| sensor, so I just wrote a script to listen to iio-sensor-proxy
| signals and run `xrandr` to rotate the screen accordingly.
|
| [1] https://github.com/grate-driver/linux
|
| [2] https://openrt.gitbook.io/open-surfacert/common/boot-
| sequenc...
| PrivateButts wrote:
| My point was more towards the 2-in-1s and tablet PCs, not
| really phone or 'true' tablets. Devices that have been pretty
| popular over the last decade, like Surface Pros (I had used a
| Pro 2 and Pro 3 during my experiment) or Lenovo Yogas.
|
| ----
|
| Didn't really consider postmarketOS. I haven't played with
| installing mobile operating systems on desktop hardware in a
| long time.
|
| ----
|
| Yeah I think what screwed my testing was applications that
| were using xwayland without me noticing. The stable firefox
| snap at the time (which is preinstalled on Ubuntu), uses it
| apparently. I have only used Xorg before, as I've never felt
| the need or desire to step into the tarpit that's migrating
| to Wayland.
|
| ----
|
| Neat workaround for your tablet, glad it works well for you.
|
| ----
|
| End of the day, I'm sure that I could have puttered on it and
| eventually got it all working (aside from the hardware on the
| surface that appears to be completely locked down), but it's
| a pretty poor showing out of the box. YMMV and all that, and
| I hope that more investment in the space makes it a better
| experience in the future.
| Arnavion wrote:
| Phosh and SXMO at least (not sure about Plasma Mobile but
| probably it too) generalize to running on large screens
| with external keyboards etc, so they should work for such
| hardware too, so you can try them if you are still
| interested.
| resonious wrote:
| I suspect this is largely because the Microsoft Surface
| products contain a lot of proprietary hardware components that
| aren't not well supported by the kernel. KDE and friends have
| pretty good touch screen support, but it's all for naught if
| you have no drivers.
| fifteen1506 wrote:
| No OSK on X11 though, on KDE.
|
| Gnome has on both.
| paulcarroty wrote:
| > Microsoft Surface products contain a lot of proprietary
| hardware components that aren't not well supported by the
| kernel
|
| and not repairable at all as Surface itself, being honest.
| Fluorescence wrote:
| I found Ubuntu Wayland touchscreen keyboard very broken on a
| Dell laptop with decent linux driver support. It's a real
| shame, worked perfectly with X.
| ponorin wrote:
| Surface lineup is a weird one because Microsoft uses a non-
| standard firmware, but even still the support on many devices
| are great. I have a Surface Go 3 and despite the poor processor
| it flies on Fedora and I use it daily to do light tasks.
| Perhaps try with linux-surface kernel?
| specproc wrote:
| As someone who just this week tried to put Linux on a Surface
| (laptop 4), I can categorically say I'm not going to try that
| again. Totally broken, not even booting properly.
| DANmode wrote:
| To be fair...Windows 11 on the Surface Laptop line is janky
| as shit.
|
| I'd be far more interested in what experiences people are
| having with Linux on a proper Surface Tablet.
| wildrhythms wrote:
| I remember working at an IT desk and trying to help a
| poor college student with their Surface Tablet, it would
| immediately thermal throttle just opening Microsoft Word,
| the whole unit slowed to a crawl. I helped them remove
| the bundled antivirus trial crapware and turn off a bunch
| of startup junk, but between the performance and the
| uncomfortable keyboard and trackpad it seemed like a
| miserable device to use for any serious purpose.
| tiahura wrote:
| To be fair it's running great here.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| I think this might be _exactly_ what I've been looking for. Linux
| tablet that's easy to open and replace parts? Yes please. It's
| overpriced for what I want it for (and almost definitely
| overpowered as well), but if the parts ecosystem allows it to
| last long enough, that might be worth it.
|
| Although if anyone has any ideas for a better fit, I'm open to
| suggestions:
|
| I just need a tablet to stay in the kitchen to display recipes. I
| plan on running a self hosted recipe database. So actual CPU
| muscle needed is pretty minimal, but I'd really rather have the
| repairability and am willing to overpay somewhat to get it.
| tjoff wrote:
| Looks much better, and cheaper than I expected. Quality can't be
| fenomenal at that price point but it looks well thought out from
| the ground up. Impressive!
|
| And _thank_ you for the 3:2 display aspect ratio <3
|
| Gonna keep an eye on this one.
| yencabulator wrote:
| I'm not really at all surprised by the price.
|
| It's more expensive than the base level Steam Deck, which is
| also a Linux touchscreen tablet (with some extra input
| hardware...), and that's Zen 2, 16 GB RAM, GPU, etc though with
| smaller&worse screen. Adding a comparable 512 GB SSD to the
| Deck makes it $649, compare against StarLite's non-preorder
| $713 price.
|
| A full Framework 13" laptop is $1049 and that's a hugely more
| powerful CPU etc.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| > _aspect ratio_
|
| The specs say 16:10...
| tjoff wrote:
| Where?
|
| I couldn't find the specs for it, but the resolution is
| stated as 2880x1920 which ought to be 3:2.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| At https://us.starlabs.systems/pages/starlite-specification
|
| yes the resolution seems to indicate 3:2, but they also
| write 16:10 - out of what, it is unclear.
|
| The tablet size is 11.15'' x 8'' , i.e. around 10:7 .
| bogwog wrote:
| Finally, a justification for Gnome!
| falsebeliefs wrote:
| [dead]
| paxys wrote:
| This looks amazing on paper, but plenty of linux phones/tablets
| do and end up being underwhelming for some reason or another. I'm
| going to reserve judgement till I can test out the full software
| and hardware compatibility and battery life (which will likely be
| never, because I doubt this will ever show up to a Best Buy near
| me).
| tedcrilly wrote:
| I've been mulling over many tablet options recently with a goal
| to reduce the number of devices I travel with (terminal, email,
| playing HW accelerated video, reading comics). I considered
| everything from an iPad through a Surface with Linux and all the
| way to more exotic options like
| https://junocomputers.com/product/juno-tab-2/ or
| https://www.fydetabduo.com/ but they all lacked something. I was
| close to going with a Google Pixel with Graphene OS but Google's
| atrocious pricing in Europe made me reconsider. This one finally
| made me pull the trigger, mostly because it is Linux-first and
| came with no "This is a beta product" or "generally works,
| but..." asterisks. Fingers crossed that it delivers.
| xbar wrote:
| i have too many computers.... i have too many computers.... i
| have too many computers....
| okokwhatever wrote:
| I feel your struggle pal!, I have too many computers too!
| kiddico wrote:
| One more is unlikely to result in divorce.
|
| Probably.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Product quality has fallen devastatingly in this historic
| phase: if there is a good product around, better to consider it
| while it is available.
| yencabulator wrote:
| Yes, but what about tablets?
| ZuLuuuuuu wrote:
| I really wonder its battery life with this new Intel processor.
| Both with average usage and also in idle mode.
|
| I had a tablet with Intel Atom CPU on it about 10 years ago, the
| performance and battery life was good during usage but it would
| stay only 4-5 days in idle before running out of battery (even if
| left it with 100% battery). But I can leave my iPad aside and
| come back to it 2 weeks later and it still holds most of its
| battery.
|
| Having said that, this tablet really looks nice and if it also
| turns out to have long battery life, I might give it a try.
| [deleted]
| f6v wrote:
| I checked reviews for Surface Pro and seems that battery has
| gotten worse over last couple years. You can expect ~5-6 hours
| of use. which to me renders the device useless.
| [deleted]
| seltzered_ wrote:
| So I've been using a Tablet PC running Linux for over two years
| as a primary device, my advice is that if your needs are more as
| a workstation get something with a reasonable CPU and fans. HP
| used to make a nice tablet PC, the Asus flow z13 is the second
| best choice.
|
| My specific setup is here:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/vzs8mm...
|
| Dell also has been selling a fanless XPS 13 tablet for the past
| year but I haven't heard of anyone using it. This said it's nice
| to see more vendors considering the tablet form factor with
| appropriate ports and display resolution.
| roandepoan wrote:
| 300cd/m is not a nice brightness for any screen
| layer8 wrote:
| 300 cd/m is plenty for indoor use, unless you care about HDR.
| frou_dh wrote:
| Some years ago people often advocated using 120 cd/m2 for
| colour calibrated panels, so it could be worse.
| AlanYx wrote:
| That still is the default calibration target for
| Calibrite/X-rite calibrators.
| Osiris wrote:
| No one has mentioned the 2880x1920 resolution display. That's
| fantastic I'm this price range. $500 laptops are (nearly?)
| impossible to find with displays above 1080p.
| jwells89 wrote:
| My question is if that resolution is usable with 2x integer
| scaling (1440x960 effective screen real estate), because
| fractional scaling under Linux is still a bit rocky.
| heavyset_go wrote:
| Fractional scaling works well on Plasma under Wayland if
| you're using an up to date distribution.
| jwells89 wrote:
| The DE itself, yes. This is true of GNOME as well once the
| hidden setting is enabled. Unfortunately there's still
| individual programs which don't behave correctly, which for
| now means that 1x or 2x displays are still best if a
| trouble-free, low-tinkering experience is the goal.
| nicolaslem wrote:
| The GNOME setting is not hidden anymore, fractional
| scaling seems to be a first class citizen now.
| wildrhythms wrote:
| My experience is that it makes a lot of things visibly
| blurry. Has that improved at all?
| nicolaslem wrote:
| I use 150% on my main monitor and everything looks
| perfect except for two proprietary apps installed through
| flatpak: Zoom and Spotify. These two are not really known
| to be quality software in the first place so I think it
| is safe to blame them for this quirk.
| seabass-labrax wrote:
| Indeed; it works perfectly on my postmarketOS PinePhone,
| which has the most recent stable GNOME release.
| cricalix wrote:
| Though other things don't work well. Like Plasma's whole
| toolbar with clock widget etc. It freezes, and you can't
| interact with the frozen widgets. Only answers are kill and
| restart, reboot, or switch back to X. It'll get there, but
| it's still not at a level I would say is daily driver (for
| me - I like my toolbar clock to actually tell me the
| current time).
|
| (Kubuntu with KDE project's PPA to be on latest stable)
| heavyset_go wrote:
| I'd try with a rolling release and see if you still
| encounter the problems. I use Plasma panels with the
| clock widget and haven't experienced freezes or had to
| restart anything.
| predictabl3 wrote:
| No. It really isn't. I can tap a keyboard shortcut and change
| my desktop resolution in .1 increments and _everything_ just
| works and scales up and down. I 've run my internal laptop
| display at 1.7 for 3+ years. (Sway)
| YoshiRulz wrote:
| A friend of mine recently (2019 or '20) bought a laptop, new,
| with a 768p LCD display. It's ridiculous. In 2014 you could get
| a phone with a 1080p display, and it was 5" so it had a high
| pixel density too! Why does it feel like consumer electronics
| are going backwards?
| iiiieu wrote:
| Perhaps because people realized that the pixel inflation is
| at some point counterproductive. If you can't distinguish
| pixels, what difference does it make?
| dspillett wrote:
| Looking for a laptop for my Dad more recently (early 2023)
| there were no models with less than 1080 that were not also
| incredibly crumby in other respects (dog slow eMMC drives,
| too little RAM to run current Windows well especially once it
| swaps to that slow drive, awful looking keyboards, etc.). We
| checked for lower resolution screens because with his eyes
| higher is pretty pointless (and it might have reduced the
| price) but went with 1080 and set it to be scaled in the OS.
|
| _> In 2014 you could get a phone with a 1080p display_
|
| You can buy a full laptop fur a fair amount less than many
| phones with high-resolution screens though, possibly more so
| back then. What spec was his machine beyond the screen? Also:
| most people are closer to their phone screen in use than they
| are a laptop, perhaps making the case for higher resolutions
| there stronger.
|
| Reliably producing those 720/768 displays at common laptop &
| tablet sizes was cheap so making laptops/tablets around them
| was cheap, and more than enough people thought it good enough
| (or didn't know better). Given our experience above, the
| economies of scale on 1080+ panels have changed such that the
| 1080 screens are in the sweet zone.
| kimbernator wrote:
| I mean, yeah that resolution is ridiculous, but anything
| above 1080p on a screen less than ~14 inches is going to have
| diminishing returns and most of those returns will be in how
| "pretty" it is, not how useful it is.
| jwells89 wrote:
| It feels like those cursed 1366x768 panels will still be
| hanging around somewhere or another forever.
| ekianjo wrote:
| It costs much more to make bigger high resolution screens
| with good yields.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| What was the laptop?
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| These look fantastic, what's the catch? Who are Star Labs and why
| should I trust them? The "About Us" Section doesn't tell me who
| _us_ is.
| darrenf wrote:
| I can't tell you who they are as individuals, but I can tell
| you I bought a Starbook from them in late 2021 and I love it.
| No problems whatsoever with performance, stability, anything.
|
| (No affiliation, although they do operate out of a barn within
| walking distance of my house!)
| bmelton wrote:
| I was thinking it was extremely familiar before realizing I was
| remembering the fictional Star Labs wherein Barry Allen got his
| Flash powers from.
| thoughtsimple wrote:
| Yeah but a 1 GHz N200 yeesh. Everything else looks great.
| hedgehog wrote:
| I haven't used one myself but the N200 looks pretty ok for a
| tablet that's supposed to run a long time on battery. Quad
| core Skylake-ish cores that turbo to 3.7GHz?
| thoughtsimple wrote:
| Notebook check says equivalent to a Core i5-8250U. That is
| not good in 2023.
|
| https://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Processor-N200-CPU-
| Bench...
| voidbert wrote:
| It depends on what you're doing. My 4th low power i5 in
| my laptop and my i3 7100 in my main desktop are just fine
| for web browsing and development.
| hedgehog wrote:
| Yes, and in this case 6W TDP and cheap enough for a $500
| tablet seem like key drivers of the N200's design. Of
| course the Apple M1 is probably twice as fast at similar
| cost and power but compared to everything outside Apple
| the N200 looks pretty decent.
| jacknews wrote:
| If they make a Ryzen 7040 APU version, I'll take it as my
| daily driver.
| puzzlingcaptcha wrote:
| 7040 in its lowest TDP configuration is 15W. Intel N200 is
| 6W. Even accounting for some differences in how both
| companies measure TDP only one of these can be passively
| cooled in that sort of form factor.
|
| The lack of low-tdp products on AMD side was also one of
| the reasons given by pcengines to discontinue their
| embedded line. AMD's last 6W APU was the 2-core R1102G
| which is now a couple generations old.
| 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
| It's a _tablet_ , not a workstation PC. I have a Surface Go
| w/ 4GB of memory running Fedora 37 that's plenty fast for
| what I use it for.
|
| Apparently this also supports hardware accelerated AV1
| decoding and h265 encode/decode.
| Osiris wrote:
| Where did you get 1Ghz from? The N200 has a max clock of
| 3.7Ghz.
| ssorc wrote:
| From the Specification section of the website:
|
| > 1.00GHz quad-core Intel Alder Lake N200
|
| > Turbo Boost up to 3.70GHz, with 6MB Smart Cache
| sithadmin wrote:
| Star Labs is trustworthy (typing this on a Star Labs StarLike
| Mk IV right now), but small hardware brand. They're based in
| the UK.
| [deleted]
| dhucerbin wrote:
| What's your experience with StarLite IV? I'm thinking about
| buying it for heavy note taking - neovim/obsidian/browser
| (Google docs and excalidraw). What battery life I can expect?
| Is keyboard nice to type? Is stuff like sleep, Wi-Fi auto
| connect and bluetooth headphones really solved?
| sithadmin wrote:
| That's basically my use case, and I'm quite happy. Battery
| life for me usually is somewhere between 6-7 hours. The
| keyboard is pretty decent - not quite as good as a Macbook
| keyboard or similar low-profile keyboards (e.g. Logitech MX
| Keys line), but good enough, though the oddball arrow key
| configuration and sizing for the right-hand Shift and Fn
| keys is a frequent annoyance. Sleep and wifi auto-connect
| work well for me on Ubuntu 22.04 w/ KDE Plasma. Can't vouch
| for bluetooth headphone usage, because I don't really use
| bluetooth with this device.
| puzzlingcaptcha wrote:
| Not the parent but I have a StarLite IV as well.
|
| The keyboard is very nice. Short travel for keys but
| pleasant to use. I use iwd as the wireless deamon and wifi
| autoconnect works just fine. I do not have bluetooth
| headphones so cannot comment on that, but my bluetooth
| mouse works as expected.
|
| Battery life depends largely on how you use it. I have a
| minimal setup with alpine linux/i3 and just typing in a
| terminal with screen at 33% brightness results in battery-
| reported power consumption of just under 2W which is great.
| Obviously a browser like firefox will impact it quite a
| bit. Hardware-accelerated video playback works fine.
|
| There are a few minor downsides: the built-in speaker is
| quite awful (not a consideration for me), the webcam is not
| great and the microsd card reader is usb 2.0. UEFI secure
| boot is currently not supported on the coreboot fw. The
| documentation is sparse.
|
| One weird gotcha is that the power button is one of the
| keys on the keyboard, so to avoid suspending your device
| accidentally it will only fire an interrupt after you hold
| it for a couple seconds. Took me a while to figure out.
| naruhodo wrote:
| I'm not familiar with the state of the art at the moment. Is a 12
| hour battery life "good" for a device used for light duties (web
| browsing)?
| meeho wrote:
| No SIM card/4g/5g. Why is the state of telecom so bad on linux?
| zekrioca wrote:
| Im curious: why would this be a Linux issue?
| yencabulator wrote:
| Because the manufacturers switched to making cheaper hardware
| and moved trade secrets and regulatory compliance into the
| Windows driver: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softmodem
| yanchep wrote:
| My personal feeling is, there are more modems that do not
| work under Linux than those that do. Or are detected but
| happen to randomly stop working during the day.
| nicolaslem wrote:
| Because carriers and hardware vendors don't want to play ball.
| Some carriers consider the user's modem as part of their
| network and want to control it, hardware vendors want to keep
| their precious firmware blobs and private APIs to themselves.
|
| Linux has all the drivers and infrastructure in place to use
| cell networks efficiently, carriers and vendors just don't want
| to be part of that.
|
| Source: my only Internet access at home comes from a LTE router
| running Debian I built myself.
| meeho wrote:
| Any guides or writeups i can follow to build a setup similar
| to yours?
| nicolaslem wrote:
| Unfortunately I never got around to writing it down and as
| it has been running pretty much unattended for the past
| three years it is not fresh in my mind.
|
| The gist is that since it is a router only (switch and
| access point are external appliances) it is not that
| difficult, there are plenty of resources on the web
| explaining how to turn a linux box into a router. I had to
| configure a bit of nftables, dhcpd, dnsmask and stubby and
| that's pretty much it.
|
| The server is a standard PC Engines APU4 and the modem in
| the mPCIe slot is an Huawei ME906s.
|
| As I alluded earlier, the hardest part is finding a good
| modem and getting it to work. Once the modem shows up as a
| network interface the hard part is done.
| meeho wrote:
| Upto 12hrs battery life screen on or standby?
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Surely screen on (considering other not too distant products).
|
| But very probably: new battery, low screen brightness, network
| off...
|
| Reasonably less than 12h - say, 8h, 10h - probably well
| achievable.
| nologic01 wrote:
| I don't need another computer right now but this gives me a warm
| feeling that the Universe cares about me.
|
| May I dream that by the time I _do_ need this they will also have
| a combo offer along with a fully integrated linux _mobile_?
| fsflover wrote:
| > fully integrated linux _mobile_
|
| It already works fine with PureOS/Mobian.
| kposehn wrote:
| As a long time iPad user I'm apprehensive. As others have noted,
| Linux based touch experiences have so far been lacking.
|
| That said, I love the thought of it. I've recently started using
| my iPad Pro as my daily driver (replacing a Mac Studio M1 Ultra
| no less) and haven't looked back. The only gripe with iPadOS is
| it took me a while to get a smooth vscode setup for development -
| having that be easier out of the box with the StarLite is quite
| appealing.
| fsflover wrote:
| > Linux based touch experiences have so far been lacking
|
| My Librem 5 works fine with the touch screen.
| yencabulator wrote:
| Of course an Apple fanboy shows up with this comment. ChromeOS
| on a tablet is a perfectly fine experience, gesture navigation
| and all.
|
| (And, very important to me, runs a "real browser", not some
| limited mobile variant. And the full Linux CLI environment.)
| marcellus23 wrote:
| iPadOS Safari is just as capable as desktop Safari. Why do
| you think otherwise?
|
| Also, it's not 2006 anymore, maybe stop calling people
| "fanboy" for preferring a different computer than you.
| yencabulator wrote:
| What motivated me to want a "real browser" was bookmark
| management. Managing & reorganizing bookmarks on mobile
| Chrome was frustrating.
|
| And I absolutely will label anyone a fanboy if they barge
| into a Linux conversation going "Rah rah Apple best Linux
| sucks" without actually contributing anything insightful,
| useful, or specific. Please don't just repeat the age old
| "Apple did it best" line, we already understand you think
| so. To people actually interested in the topic, all it
| seems like is you wanted to mention Apple for the sake of
| mentioning Apple, and that's why I called you a fanboy.
| marcellus23 wrote:
| I'm not the person you responded to. I don't think "Rah
| rah Apple best Linux sucks" is a good characterization of
| his comment though. "This looks interesting but Linux has
| historically been a worse touch experience than iPad" is
| a better paraphrase, and I think the sentiment belongs in
| this discussion (because any entrant to the tablet market
| is competing with the iPad, whether you like it or not).
| yencabulator wrote:
| Once again, ChromeOS on a tablet is a perfectly fine
| experience. If you, or anyone, wants to argue about _why_
| a specific Linux-based desktop on a tablet isn 't great,
| do that, don't just restate generalizations like "Apple
| is best and everything else is unusable and it's always
| been like that", that comes across as FUD based on
| opinions and fanboyism.
|
| I've used ChromeOS tablets for years. I haven't tried
| KDE/Gnome on a primarily touch based device, just
| ChromeOS, so I can't speak for those, but I see no
| inherent reason why they'd be worse. There is an iPad
| some 30 feet from me right now, so I think I am in a
| position to be able to compare to that.
| shortformblog wrote:
| As someone who gave the JingPad a spin, the Linux tablet market
| has been painfully difficult to pull off. At least this is based
| on Intel, ensuring that if the company goes belly up, it can be
| used for something other than a mirror.
| linmob wrote:
| IIRC, Ubuntu Touch has been ported to the JingPad, so there is
| one supported OS option.
| shortformblog wrote:
| Yeah, it has, but it has serious limitations for future ports
| because of its hardware model. It's using an SOC with
| proprietary PowerVR graphics which will limit its future
| ability.
|
| I wrote a whole thing about this about eight months ago:
| https://tedium.co/2022/11/30/fydetab-duo-jingpad-comparison/
| falsebeliefs wrote:
| [flagged]
| porkbeer wrote:
| You can, it is explicitly supported along with a few
| distributions. But you just wanted to be snarky.
| [deleted]
| LoveMortuus wrote:
| No USB-A ports and no plain old Debian option... Would be cool if
| they offered a blank keyboard option, because right now I would
| just have to pick any ISO language and because I used Slovenian
| layout, but if I bought it, as is, I couldn't look at the
| keyboard anyways...
|
| Also the display seems a bit dim at 300cd/m.
|
| And since it's touch, stylus (digitizer) would be very welcome.
| MerelyMortal wrote:
| USB-A to USB-C adapters are cheap. USB-A is past its prime.
|
| Your post contains only negative points.
|
| There will never be a perfect device because everyone has
| different wants, so enjoy it for what it is.
| LoveMortuus wrote:
| I'm sorry, I guess I didn't fully express my thoughts. I'm
| genuinely excited about the device and had signed up to be
| notified when it's available. I will, of course, wait for the
| reviews, but at ~600EUR with a keyboard, it's already leagues
| ahead of my current Chromebook, and this is running a "real"
| operating system!
|
| I expressed my issue with no USB-A ports because I prefer my
| devices to be self-sufficient (I hope that's the right word).
| My mouse that I've had for many many years has USB-A, all of
| my USB storage drives are USB-A, Wacom tablet is USB-A,
| external DVD drive is USB-A.
|
| What I'm trying to say is that all of my devices are USB-A, I
| have a USB charger only for my phone. And I do find it absurd
| having to use an adapter to use a mouse with my computer. I
| would be very slightly less bothered if the adapters at least
| came with device, but they don't, switch means that it's
| something I have to buy (no, I don't have any USB-C to USB-A
| adapters, because only my phone has a USB-C port).
|
| I don't believe USB-A is past its prime, I don't really even
| know what that's supposed to mean. I still love and use my
| 3.5mm headphone jack on my phone.
|
| With criticism, it's much easier to improve then if you only
| hear praise.
| worble wrote:
| I get where you're coming from, my mouse and keyboard are
| also still USB-A, but I don't think this is a major issue
| when you can just buy a decent USB-C dock. I've got one
| with 3 USB-C ports + display port + HDMI + ethernet etc. I
| find this honestly much better organizational wise rather
| than everything leeching from different parts of the
| laptop, and you're no longer beholden to each variation of
| laptop having the ports you need (some don't even have
| ethernet these days...)
| iSnow wrote:
| Of course, your opinion is yours to have, but honestly, the
| world has moved on from USB-A for new
| computers/phones/peripherals. I just bought a couple of
| those: https://www.amazon.com/Basesailor-Thunderbolt-
| Converter-Gene... and they stay on the USB-A cable - the
| price is low enough that I can justify the expense for my 5
| or so older peripherals.
|
| The USB-A socket is too big for the slim form-factor of
| ultrabooks and tablets, and it won't make a come-back.
| mlok wrote:
| I would go this route :
|
| USB C to USB Hub 4 Ports ($13)
|
| https://syntechhome.com/products/usb-c-to-usb-hub-4-ports
| non-nil wrote:
| Just received notification and went to order. Shipping to my
| location (Nordic region) turned out to be expensive enough that
| I'll have to pass on this for now and live with older hardware
| for a while yet. Too bad!
| c2h5oh wrote:
| Odd - shipping to Central Europe starts at 32 euro
| hereonout2 wrote:
| The keyboard is also extra, which bumps the price up to more
| than I originally thought.
|
| Biggest downside is a 3-4 month lead time though, I'm too
| impatient for that unfortunately, especially given this would
| be a bit of a punt for me.
| bogle wrote:
| And you'll need the keyboard if you want BIOS passwords or
| full disk encryption. No OSK or bluetooth keyboard will be
| available until you're past those.
| MegaDeKay wrote:
| "5-years of updates - Backed by secure updates delivered via the
| LVFS."
|
| Hmmmm. Why a five year cutoff? Does this have some custom
| firmware not in mainline Linux that would preclude updates beyond
| five years?
| clhodapp wrote:
| LVFS is how you ship firmware that installs permanently into
| flash on the hardware device (e.g. Coreboot).
|
| Hopefully, at least Coreboot itself stays buildable for the
| motherboard in the long term so you can keep locally building
| core system firmware for many more years to come. Star Labs
| themselves are not committing to continuing to ship pre-built
| binaries from their side for more than five years.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| Most PC motherboards and laptops won't give you longer BIOS
| updates than 3-5 years. It's unfortunately the norm for FW
| support lifecyle.
| mayli wrote:
| "0 fan design" bios: fan mode: aggressive
|
| https://us.starlabs.systems/cdn/shop/files/CFR-01x2000.png?f...
| kennydude wrote:
| Same image as used on their laptop
| https://starlabs.systems/pages/starbook
| kiddico wrote:
| I obviously don't have one, but presumably there's a fan header
| that they didn't use and didn't bother to remove the reference
| from the bios in case someone decides to use it...somehow...
| for some reason.
|
| idk, but a bios setting for fan speed isn't actually indicative
| of a fan.
|
| edit: could just be a really roundabout way to increase TDP
| mdp2021 wrote:
| I would have included GPS: those tablets are good as maps.
| yencabulator wrote:
| For what it's worth, some dedicated hotspot gadgets expose a
| GPS service over TCP (the protocol is often somewhat
| inaccurately called NMEA), and a standalone USB-connected GPS
| receiver can be <$20.
|
| For tablets, I believe often the GPS receiver is on the same
| chip as the cellular modem, so you don't tend to get GPS
| without that.
| not_your_vase wrote:
| And what about the software? I mean software that can be used
| without mouse and keyboard?
|
| Currently the main problem is not the hardware, but we simply
| don't have usable software. I have been driving a PinePhone for
| many months (still do), but mostly with programs that I wrote for
| myself after a lot of frustrations about the available software,
| because having a keyboard and mouse is mandatory with 99.9% of
| the available Linux applications. So basic (UX) things are
| missing and/or fatally broken, it's not even funny. This makes a
| new n+1th Linux tablet a bit pointless in my eyes.
| wiz21c wrote:
| Sometimes I want to buy a PinePhone. Do you mean that one can't
| send SMS, place phone calls, browse the web, read (not write)
| emails without a keyboard ? (these four are 99% of my phone
| usage).
| Qwertious wrote:
| Drew Devault (Sway and Sourcehut guy) wrote this on his
| experience with Linux phones:
| https://drewdevault.com/2023/06/16/Mobile-linux-
| retrospectiv...
|
| tldr: it works and it's great, but it's not reliable in
| phone/SMS in the way a phone _needs_ to be reliable.
| wvh wrote:
| I've been using the Nokia N9 and some of the Jolla Sailfish
| offspring to this day. The phone part has been very
| reliable. The rest of the ecosystem is very minimal, almost
| non-existent, but I can't complain about the basic phone
| functionality.
|
| With these ARM-style devices that are quite closed down and
| need their own respective device tree, mass adoption seems
| a requirement for a company and ecosystem to hit critical
| mass and be financially viable. I don't think a "Linux
| phone" is enough of a value proposition to hit that
| critical mass without any specific features that would
| appeal to a non-technical crowd and can't easily be
| replicated by the iOS or Android behemoths.
|
| So personally I think it's not that the open-source/Linux
| approach can't produce a phone that has good-enough basic
| functionality, but that there's no clear way to market and
| sell these phones to a sufficiently large crowd to offset
| the massive investment into a new platform.
|
| Linux as a whole might be far ahead of iOS and Android as a
| general computing platform, but a viable device would have
| to break through the mass production hardware (and
| marketing!) barrier.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| I used to use Sailfish too, and it was fun at the time.
| But its messaging capabilities felt like they'd stagnated
| and it's never gotten support for things like group
| texting, which has only gotten more common in the years
| since:
| https://together.jolla.com/question/75552/messaging-
| applicat...
|
| I would gladly switch back to a Linux phone if it had
| reasonable battery life and good support for the modern
| assortment of at least the open messaging protocols.
| (Obviously things like Discord are out of the question,
| but SMS/XMPP/Matrix?)
| not_your_vase wrote:
| You can make a phone call, browse the web, send messages.
| Note that the modem keeps rebooting itself randomly
| (sometimes once a day, sometimes once every 10 minutes, with
| all firmware versions - this means entering the PIN again,
| finding the network, etc), so if you _have_ to make
| phonecalls at least somewhat reliably, PinePhone is not for
| you. Same for PinePhonePro - the same crap modem is used in
| that also. Personally I have a dumb Nokia with me all the
| time, in case I have to use a phone, and the PP has a data-
| only SIM.
|
| As of 2023 there is 1 actively supported email client with a
| mobile and touchscreen optimized "interface": Geary (at least
| that I know about). The scarequotes are there with a reason:
| you can't set up your account without connecting the phone to
| an external monitor: the Next/Cancel buttons are out of the
| screen during the setup. Normally I would laugh, but now I
| don't feel like it. Have no idea if it works afterwards, I
| just deleted it at that point.
|
| Note if you'd decide to get one: at least original PP is kind
| of abandoned. It is still a nice toy, but I wouldn't hold my
| breath that anything widely supported and usable will be
| published on it.
| fit2rule wrote:
| [dead]
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| Why not a Ryzen APU?
| nsteel wrote:
| Can you have that fanless in this form factor?
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| Great. To me Gnome 3 always seemed a perfect tablet envoronment
| while fairly imperfect desktop environment so I always wanted a
| good tablet with it and never wanted it on desktop/laptop.
|
| I feel like buying this one. What inspires me even more is it
| seemingly having more than one USB-C port.
| teddyh wrote:
| RYF certification or no sale.
| fluidcruft wrote:
| What's RYF?
| tedcrilly wrote:
| Free Software Foundation certification program:
| https://ryf.fsf.org/
| nsonha wrote:
| Again with this stupid unlappable design
| jacknews wrote:
| I disagree, it's potentially a much more versatile format.
|
| What's needed for use as a laptop (aside from a disregard for
| ergonomics) is a k/b with an extra battery for weight/balance,
| and actual friction hinges to hold the tablet at the desired
| angle.
|
| The tablet itself could then have smaller batteries and be
| lighter, maybe as an option.
| nsonha wrote:
| > a k/b with an extra battery for weight/balance, and actual
| friction hinges to hold the tablet at the desired angle.
|
| which doesn't exist. You can't just design half of a device
| and tell customers that 3rd parties will come up with the
| rest... in time.
| mdp2021 wrote:
| Just a not fully considered thought, but maybe we could
| 3D-print hinges for this product?
|
| Or, BT keyboards with trackpads (they do not consume much
| power) including hinges could be in commerce.
| WillAdams wrote:
| Nice!
|
| Is there an option for an active stylus?
| mkl wrote:
| I think they'd be promoting it if there was. A pity.
| cl3misch wrote:
| Wow, good point. I just expected it to support a stylus and was
| really hyped about buying one. Without a stylus, I don't think
| Linux on a tablet is really viable.
| xqcgrek2 wrote:
| I would have preferred their new Star Lite was an updated 12"
| fanless Linux laptop rather than a tablet.
|
| Do any decent fanless 12" Linux laptops exist now?
| ConSeannery wrote:
| What's the difference between a fanless laptop and a Linux OS
| tablet? A keyboard on hinges or something?
| yencabulator wrote:
| Looks like StarLite needs a kickstand behind it to keep the
| display up, the hinge likely has no stickiness whatsoever,
| it's just like a folded piece of the folio cover. Like a
| Microsoft Surface. Can't type in lap, hard to use in tight
| spaces like planes or busy coffee shops.
|
| I have a couple of Pixel Slates with Brydge keyboards that
| have actual good hinges, that's much closer to a laptop.
| Still more top-heavy than laptops.
| chillbill wrote:
| I'm afraid i3/sway have spoiled me and now I find any other wm
| just awfully bulky to say the least, but also I can't imagine how
| to use tiling wm without a keyboard. Are there any projects
| exploring the idea of tiling wm usage on tablets?
| KingMachiavelli wrote:
| In my limited experience, sway is pretty easy to use on a
| tablet because it supports moving windows very will using a
| mouse/pointer. Obviously you need still need a on-screen
| keyboard and a lot of config to replace other swaycmds but it
| seems like a decent base WM for a tablet.
| bradrn wrote:
| In some ways, tiling WMs are a natural fit for tablets --
| consider e.g. the iPad's 'split screen' mode, where two windows
| take up the whole screen between them. It's easy enough to
| imagine a WM where you can drag windows to move them around,
| and drag the splits between them to resize. On Linux, this kind
| of paradigm is implemented by e.g. Hyprland. I dislike it for
| desktop, but on a tablet I'd happily use it.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| weikju wrote:
| There is at least one: SXMO [0] . There are a few distributions
| where it's available, at least on the PinePhone, so it's not
| inconceivable at all that it would possible to use it on an
| Intel-bsaed tablet.
|
| 0: https://sxmo.org/ "Simple X Mobile"
|
| Extra quote from their docs:
|
| > Sxmo >= 1.6.0 runs both on Xorg (using dwm) as well as on
| Wayland (using sway). The X in our name historically referred
| to Xorg, but is now open to whatever interpretation you prefer
| (eXtensible, eXcellent, eXperimental, etc...)
|
| Note: I have yet to try it but I'm getting more interested
| now..
| azangru wrote:
| Has anyone tried their Starfighter? They've been selling it for
| about a year; but I have yet to see a proper review. Wait time of
| 4-5 months is a dealbreaker for me; but perhaps someone has gone
| through with it?
| schaefer wrote:
| I haven't ordered or used a starfighter, but ages ago when the
| ryzen sku first went up I e-mailed the company. I was asking if
| they had any video of the removable camera being stowed in the
| base. I was having trouble imagining it. That video [1] was
| finally posted at the end of May.
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tzeL2CJTd6g
| azangru wrote:
| Cool! Thank you for sharing the video. Such a strange design
| choice!
| nisegami wrote:
| I'm in the market for a tablet, but my primary use is media
| consumption so screen+speakers are of the highest importance. But
| that said, this still looks very promising. I signed up for email
| notifications, so it depends on when it becomes purchasable.
| kaliqt wrote:
| Finally. A proper Linux PC tablet.
| hbcondo714 wrote:
| > WiFi 5 and Bluetooth 5.1
|
| I wonder if these can be upgraded to the latest versions?
| 0xcde4c3db wrote:
| "Wireless" is listed for StarLite in [1]. I'd be concerned
| about driver/firmware stability and heat dissipation, though.
|
| edit: Now that I look at it again, there are two different
| "Star Lite" entries, and I'm not sure which one is this tablet.
|
| [1] https://support.starlabs.systems/kb/faqs/is-it-possible-
| to-r...
| clhodapp wrote:
| None of them. This is the Star Lite Mk V.
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