[HN Gopher] Why does email development have to suck? - Explainin...
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       Why does email development have to suck? - Explaining all the
       <tr>'s and <td>'s
        
       Author : hdodov
       Score  : 125 points
       Date   : 2023-08-17 16:03 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (dodov.dev)
 (TXT) w3m dump (dodov.dev)
        
       | alentred wrote:
       | While we are at it, what is the most surefire way to include
       | images into email? How do I make sure that simple images, like
       | logos, are shown in most common email clients?
        
         | gabereiser wrote:
         | base64 encoded <img src"<base64>">...
         | 
         | It's the only way to ensure you're logo is forwarded to every
         | single CC and BCC.
         | 
         |  _edit_ I take it all back, gmail strips them. I guess as an
         | attachement and then referenced like  <img src="cid:<id>">
        
           | javitury wrote:
           | Gmail does not support base64 images according to caniemail
           | 
           | https://www.caniemail.com/features/image-base64/
           | 
           | The most reliable method is to attach a png image to the
           | email and reference it from the body using `<img
           | src="cid:insert_cid_ref_here" `
        
         | SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
         | You don't. Common email clients block images by default,
         | because advertisers used them for tracking.
         | 
         | Or you make ASCII art of the logo.
        
           | chungy wrote:
           | Or you include a base64-encoded version of the image. Doing
           | it in-line in HTML should work; I believe <img> tags can also
           | reference an email attachment containing the image (email
           | attachments are base64-encoded anyway...).
        
       | hdodov wrote:
       | When I first got introduced to email development, I remember I
       | wanted to throw myself off a cliff. I couldn't believe how
       | nonsensical everything was. I kept track of everything in a
       | little text document, which I've now turned into a post.
       | 
       | If you happen to be starting out with emails, I hope this can get
       | you up to speed with exactly how everything is fucked. And if
       | you're an Outlook survivor, I hope you'll find something you can
       | relate to...
        
         | mdgrech23 wrote:
         | For the most part you can kind of have header and a footer
         | which you reuse across all email and then just more or less
         | text in the middle. Maybe an image every once in a while. If
         | you can get business partners to agree to that I've found that
         | to be an ideal middle ground.
        
         | scrollaway wrote:
         | Since you mention MJML: I wrote a little tool called mjmgr
         | which was meant to be a prototype of a MJML email manager for a
         | bunch of providers. So that you can keep the source code of the
         | MJML email checked in, but deploy it as compiled templates
         | across various email template providers.
         | 
         | https://github.com/siguelaola/mjmgr
         | 
         | I only really did sendgrid and mailgun, but as a POC it worked
         | well. Just putting this out there because it's useful but I
         | don't touch it much anymore.
        
           | shortformblog wrote:
           | This is cool! My CMS (Craft CMS) has an MJML plugin as well
           | as some good inlining plugins, making it possible to build
           | emails using the CMS as the base. My goal was to have a
           | system that put email templating on equal ground to content
           | display, and MJML was a really key part of that. Love seeing
           | the cool ideas MJML has inspired in the ecosystem.
        
         | dsr_ wrote:
         | If you were thinking more clearly, you would want to throw
         | whoever asked for "email development" off a cliff.
         | 
         | People choose the wrong targets for violence.
        
       | nottheengineer wrote:
       | As an ABAP developer, I thought "that doesn't sound too bad".
       | 
       | I definitely need to get out of there before my brain rots
       | further.
       | 
       | And for anyone curious:
       | https://help.sap.com/doc/abapdocu_751_index_htm/7.51/en-us/a...
       | Those are the keywords, about a third of that list is obsolete
       | and you usually need multiple of them to make a valid statement.
       | And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
        
         | fdgjgbdfhgb wrote:
         | Hah, that takes me back!! MY first internship was at SAP and I
         | foolishly didn't even ask which technologies I would work
         | with... ABAP is literally the worst lol. This was 2018 btw
        
         | hyperman1 wrote:
         | I love how the numbers 1 to 7 are keywords and 8 and 9 aren't.
        
         | cosmodisk wrote:
         | That's why I never saw any SAP job paying peanuts...
        
       | amelius wrote:
       | If you think sending email is hard, you haven't tried sending
       | whatsapp messages.
        
       | internet101010 wrote:
       | How do I make gmail automatically scan every incoming email for
       | "unsubscribe" links and click them?
        
         | epolanski wrote:
         | You can't get the end result by automation alone but you could
         | automate half of it.
         | 
         | 1) Use AppScript from google to find those.
         | 
         | 2) Save all the links.
         | 
         | 3) Go through them manually (because each service will want you
         | to confirm you did not click by mistake).
        
           | rahkiin wrote:
           | Virus scanners and other tools like google will fetch any
           | urls in emails to check their target. So having a direct
           | unsubscribe action behind GET of a link breaks your email
           | list as Gmail will unsubscribe everyone
        
             | chungy wrote:
             | Is this why they always have a confirm button? That's been
             | a pet-peeve annoyance of mine.
        
               | JimDabell wrote:
               | It's a basic part of HTTP. If you follow a link, that's a
               | GET request. GET requests are supposed to be safe. A user
               | may not have initiated the action if it's a GET. If you
               | want something that implies "yes, the user made an
               | intentional choice to take action", then use another
               | verb, like POST.
        
             | pvorb wrote:
             | There must be some additional logic behind that, because I
             | see this regularly behind GET requests and I'm not being
             | unsubscribed from everything.
        
           | ndriscoll wrote:
           | Alternatively, make a filter that applies a label and skips
           | inbox. Occasionally, open the label, select all, and Report
           | Spam.
        
         | mint2 wrote:
         | So when provide.autoinsurance@fhsbsh.com sends you an email
         | that consists of nonsense text, a sketchy link, and an
         | unsubscribe link you want to automatically follow the
         | unsubscribe link?
         | 
         | Looking at my spam folder, how about hitting the unsubscribe
         | link in email from the alias "100_free_spins" sent from
         | top1.povertytrap.site? There's an unsubscribe button at the
         | bottom.
         | 
         | I'm slightly impressed how that spcammer is using the email
         | "povertytrap" but I assume it's just by chance they hacked that
         | domain to send spam.
        
       | shortformblog wrote:
       | As someone who has custom-coded newsletters over the years, I
       | understand the other comments here, but to me, email deserves to
       | have room as a creative medium with visual elements, because
       | visuals are often part of the storytelling.
       | 
       | MJML has been a real shot in the arm from that standpoint, as it
       | greatly simplified what was possible.
        
       | pvorb wrote:
       | Wouldn't most of these pains go away if you simply could include
       | style _tags_ (not attributes) in the body? I 've always wondered
       | why it's possible to include script tags pretty much everywhere
       | but not style tags.
        
         | hdodov wrote:
         | Nope, that doesn't work as well. I tested it before finishing
         | up the article a few days ago. If you put `<style>` in the
         | `<body>`, it gets removed when the email is forwarded and it
         | still looks like shit.
        
           | pvorb wrote:
           | That's why I said "if you could". I know it's not valid HTML.
           | For some reason, style tags are only allowed inside the
           | <head/>. My point was that I find it strange that HTML in
           | general has this limit and that script tags are allowed in
           | the <body/> as well.
        
       | JohnFen wrote:
       | > An email is essentially just an HTML document, like a web page,
       | except it's visualized in an email client, rather than a web
       | browser. However, both are capable of rendering, which is the
       | process of turning HTML code into text, rectangles, and images,
       | i.e. the visualization of the content.
       | 
       | No, it is not. An email is a text document. That document might
       | be HTML, but it doesn't have to be. And if such email is sent to
       | me, the HTML is never rendered because I don't allow it.
       | 
       | The only time I get HTML through email is when it's spam or
       | commercial email, and screw them. Sometimes a real person will
       | neglect to turn HTML off in their mail client, but even then,
       | they aren't really using HTML or are using it for trivial things,
       | so not allowing HTML only makes the garbage email hard to read.
        
         | legitster wrote:
         | > The only time I get HTML through email is when it's spam or
         | commercial email, and screw them.
         | 
         | Heaven help any friends/coworkers who tried to send you an
         | email with color, embedded pictures, or bullet point lists.
        
         | jgalt212 wrote:
         | I assume your preferred browser is lynx, or maybe you just pipe
         | curl into emacs?
        
           | mr_mitm wrote:
           | I use mutt and unfortunately in the corporate world you can't
           | just ignore HTML or even HTML only mails. I pipe them to
           | elinks, works 99.9% of the time easily.
        
             | JohnFen wrote:
             | That may be the case, but that still doesn't make HTML a
             | part of email itself. It's using email to send/receive
             | HTML.
        
               | JimDabell wrote:
               | The ability to use formats other than plain text have
               | been a standard part of email since 1992:
               | 
               | https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1341
               | 
               | HTML email is not merely an HTML file sent _by_ email -
               | it _is_ the email.
        
           | JohnFen wrote:
           | Umm, no? I don't understand your point...
        
             | jgalt212 wrote:
             | > And if such email is sent to me, the HTML is never
             | rendered because I don't allow it.
             | 
             | This part feels like you're being difficult for the sake of
             | being difficult. I agree that presentation >> content for
             | many emails, but stuff like bolding, monospace, and inline
             | images is genuinely useful in emails.
        
         | thiht wrote:
         | Once again the stereotypical HN comment of << no this is all
         | wrong, my way is right >>
         | 
         | For all communications that matter today, email is HTML. No one
         | cares that JohnFen choses to not render them as HTML.
        
           | SoftTalker wrote:
           | Whast about text messages? We must have HTML in text message
           | too, I think, so that we can use them more effectively.
        
             | thiht wrote:
             | Not necessarily HTML, but yeah? Why not?
        
             | ttepasse wrote:
             | I believe the 20 year old MMS standard supported in
             | principle a XHTML subset via WAP.
        
         | tomjen3 wrote:
         | You will hate me then. I have recently started to embrace html
         | emails. I needed to book a room for a series of events and
         | color highlightinged the available options.
         | 
         | Another time I needed to provide a summary of options for fees
         | and that got added as a table with colours to indicate fees,
         | profits and losses.
         | 
         | And I don't care at all if it meant that it could not be read
         | in mutt. At some point we have to march forward or we will
         | never progress at all.
        
         | happytoexplain wrote:
         | I agree with the OP - it's not misleading to say an email is
         | "essentially" HTML, regardless of whether the client supports
         | parsing out the markup. Browsers too will happily render an
         | HTML file consisting only of the string "hello world", and yet
         | it's still a web page.
        
       | cypressious wrote:
       | Last time I had to deal with emails, I've used https://mjml.io/
       | and was very happy with it. You can version the templates,
       | compile them as part of your build pipeline and it seems to do
       | produce very _adequate_ HTML full of tables that looks good on
       | all clients that we tested.
        
         | andrei_says_ wrote:
         | How's responsive design with mjml?
         | 
         | Creating precise multi column responsive designs that work both
         | in outlook and sane email clients is a nightmare.
        
           | marpstar wrote:
           | I've been using MJML for a few years now, I can't imagine
           | even trying to build a responsive email without it. I don't
           | even have to think about it.
           | 
           | You may still have to slice images, but it's grid/column
           | support has worked great for me.
        
       | NoraCodes wrote:
       | I don't understand the insistence on building "beautiful" emails.
       | I'm not the kind of person to insist on text-only e-mail, but I
       | do think it's ridiculous to spend lots of time and money making
       | e-mails that look like fully-fledged Web documents.
       | 
       | Either your message _does_ have some useful information for the
       | reader, in which case say that and then get out of my way, or it
       | _doesn 't_, in which case you're a spammer. There is no third
       | option.
        
         | oliwarner wrote:
         | It's weird that your can't conceive of _useful information_
         | that benefits from HTML elements (images, actual tables, links)
         | and layout design to make it more readable. In pretty much the
         | same way a web page does. I benefit from this as the reader. I
         | want it.
         | 
         | That non-existent third option is critical for good
         | communication.
        
         | thfuran wrote:
         | >There is no third option
         | 
         | But only because the best way to accomplish the first option is
         | to be cognizant of the way the information is presented so that
         | it can be most effectively conveyed. And that can involve
         | paying attention to layout and color and possibly including
         | some graphics.
        
         | blowski wrote:
         | Perhaps that is your response, but it's not true of everybody.
         | I've done a lot of experiments with different types of email,
         | and beautiful emails always get significantly better response
         | rates.
        
           | cosmodisk wrote:
           | Beautiful emails are easy. Emails with well conveyed and
           | informative text- much much harder.
        
           | NoraCodes wrote:
           | Ah. I think the difference is that when I send emails, I do
           | so to communicate information, rather than to elicit people
           | to buy a product.
        
             | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
             | Are you relying on the user's email client to convert
             | plaintext URIs into interactive hyperlinks in transactional
             | mail?
        
               | NoraCodes wrote:
               | No. As I said, I'm not advocating for plain text only
               | emails, just simple ones.
        
           | LastTrain wrote:
           | So, spam.
        
             | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
             | Is transactional email spam?
        
               | LastTrain wrote:
               | Well, that depends. Is it something I need to see? Did I
               | proactively ask for it, or did I neglect to opt out? Etc,
               | etc. If you are having to measure response rate, and it
               | doesn't involve an emergency alert or some such, it is
               | probably spam.
        
               | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
               | Transactional mail is not marketing mail.
               | 
               | It's typically a notification in response to an action
               | you initiated on some web application.
               | 
               | https://postmarkapp.com/blog/what-is-transactional-email-
               | and...
        
               | LastTrain wrote:
               | OK. So what, I'm not going to complete my password reset
               | notification because the page isn't beautiful? If you are
               | tracking response rates it is because people aren't
               | expecting an email, because they didn't ask for one (i.e.
               | it isn't a password reset notification). GP is right - I
               | want information I /need/ to be in an email in a succinct
               | format, and I don't want emails I don't need.
        
               | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
               | 1. Yes, normal people who don't read HN have less trust
               | in a plaintext email.
               | 
               | 2. Yes, abandonment will be higher if the user can't
               | click the password reset link in the email.
        
               | marssaxman wrote:
               | > less trust in a plaintext email
               | 
               | What a remarkable idea! "HTML mail = useless bullshit" is
               | such a strong correlation in my mind that it had never
               | occurred to me other people might see it the opposite
               | way.
        
               | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
               | I can't tell if this is sarcasm.
               | 
               | Personally, I've been using mutt in the terminal as my
               | primary email client for several years, and I absolutely
               | prefer plaintext email.
               | 
               | But this isn't about me. Nor is it about any other
               | computer nerd here clutching their pearls over HTML
               | email. The reality is that users of web applications --
               | the kind that probably a significant proportion of HN
               | readers develop to earn a living -- expect HTML
               | transactional email.
               | 
               | It's table stakes. That's just the reality.
        
               | marssaxman wrote:
               | Not sarcasm at all.
        
               | seba_dos1 wrote:
               | How much sense does it make to measure and discuss
               | response rates for transactional mails though?
        
               | blowski wrote:
               | Low response rates are used as a spam signal by major
               | email providers, whatever the type of email.
        
               | seba_dos1 wrote:
               | How does that make any sense when those are often sent
               | from no-reply addresses that are routed nowhere?
        
               | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
               | I think response rate is meant more generally in this
               | context. It doesn't necessarily literally mean an email
               | in response. I think more typically it means the
               | recipient following the _call to action_ link in the
               | email.
        
         | thrashh wrote:
         | Some of us like beautiful things.
        
           | NoraCodes wrote:
           | Fair enough. I fully support hobbyists making email clients
           | do fun tricks.
        
         | epolanski wrote:
         | There's no chance a business today can work with plain text
         | documents at scale.
         | 
         | Virtually all email clients support html since a decade and the
         | expectations user have todays have changed.
         | 
         | To put it differently, it looks unprofessional.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | legitster wrote:
           | To add to this, plaintext emails are a much bigger avenue for
           | phishing, MITM attacks, and scammers.
           | 
           | Especially when dealing with technology, consistent branding
           | actually has an important safety factor for consumers.
        
           | dsr_ wrote:
           | There is nothing in the average internal email that requires
           | HTML, much less CSS.
           | 
           | There is nothing in the average external email that requires
           | HTML or CSS.
           | 
           | There is no useful content in any email that requires
           | JavaScript.
           | 
           | "looks unprofessional" is cultural, and of the same
           | significance as green vs blue text bubbles in your SMS
           | messaging system.
        
             | unethical_ban wrote:
             | Some people _want_ marketing emails. Did you know some
             | people sign up for them voluntarily? They 're like
             | newsletters of old, but electronic. And it arrives in your
             | mailbox, ready to be rendered!
             | 
             | Furthermore, many emails are direct links to status pages
             | of orders, account verifications, password resets, and so
             | on, which are definitely most functional as a clickable
             | URL.
        
             | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
             | This is an absurdly wrong, yet characteristically HN take.
             | 
             | Transactional mail typically requires some hyperlink for
             | the average user.
        
               | dsr_ wrote:
               | No, it doesn't. Email is a great feedback medium.
               | 
               | "If you want to continue with the subscription, reply
               | with the word YES on a line by itself. You can put
               | comments on other lines and we will read them."
               | 
               | do-not-reply@marketing.com is one of the stupid
               | innovations by people who can't automate their email.
               | Transactional email gets handled by robots and fed into a
               | ticketing system when it goes awry.
               | 
               | Treat your customers like customers, not consumers.
        
               | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
               | Why would transactional mail come from do-not-
               | reply@marketing.com?
               | 
               | Transactional mail is not marketing mail.
               | 
               | It's not a good look to declare things as stupid when you
               | aren't sure what the discussion is about.
        
               | JimDabell wrote:
               | Transactional emails are things like reset password
               | emails. You're really going to build your reset password
               | functionality by having people email their new password
               | to you?
        
               | corporage wrote:
               | [flagged]
        
               | thiht wrote:
               | Now you need to deal with << yes >>, << Yes >>, << YES.
               | >>, HTML wrapping, user signatures, dangling spaces, etc.
               | 
               | I've worked with a system that let users order domain
               | names by email and it was a nightmare to maintain. Don't
               | EVER build a system that relies on reading and parsing
               | emails sent by users, it WILL fail horribly.
        
               | toast0 wrote:
               | You can certainly put urls into a text/plain email. It
               | helps if your urls aren't terribly long and don't have
               | characters that are questionable in urls.
               | 
               | w3c suggests surrounding them with angle brackets [1],
               | but I can't find a source that makes more than a
               | suggestion. By reports, some mail user agents, and some
               | users will include the trailing > in the url they provide
               | to their web user-agent, so that's something to consider
               | and make sure the destination of the link can handle.
               | 
               | Putting links on a line by themselves works well too.
               | 
               | If you don't know what a user prefers, it makes sense to
               | send a text/plain with links as I've described, as well
               | as a text/html with links in tags, because tagged links
               | may be friendlier to some users and some mail user-agents
               | are tragically bad at their job.
               | 
               | [1] https://www.w3.org/Addressing/URL/5.1_Wrappers.html
        
               | yakshaving_jgt wrote:
               | Yes, you _can_ put them in there, but then you 're
               | relying on the recipient's client to turn that plaintext
               | url into a link the recipient can actually click on, as
               | opposed to having to copy and paste the url into their
               | browser address bar.
               | 
               | Right? Or do I have something wrong?
        
               | toast0 wrote:
               | Yeah, but most email clients do linkify urls in
               | text/plain emails. Heck, an awful lot of email clients
               | linkify urls in text/html emails.
        
       | maw wrote:
       | I read the first paragraph and it seemed about right to me: there
       | are many standards at play and many implementations of varying
       | quality; lots of folklore, possibly false, makes the rounds and
       | some of the more important providers are, by reputation at least,
       | known to be difficult; one has to deal with issues of scale and
       | stability and atomicity and reliability; there's spam.
       | 
       | In other words, no shortage of interesting if often maddening
       | problems to work on here.
       | 
       | Then I saw that this was all just about formatting HTML mail.
       | 
       | Oh.
        
       | rossdavidh wrote:
       | "So if you want a reasonable portion of users to see your email
       | as intended, let's say 95%, you have to stick to the most basic
       | features of HTML and CSS..."
       | 
       | Or, you know, you could just SEND TEXT.
        
         | thiht wrote:
         | Wow so clever. That totally solves the need to show logos and
         | images, colors, formatting, centering things, making things
         | visually appealing, etc.
         | 
         | Can you conceive your needs and your basic understanding of an
         | issue is not, in fact, the whole thing?
        
           | rossdavidh wrote:
           | There is no "need" to show logos and images, etc. etc. In
           | fact, far from making things visually appealing, all of that
           | tells me (and most other people) "this is an email which I
           | can safely delete without reading", precisely because real
           | people not trying to sell you something rarely do that.
        
             | thiht wrote:
             | > There is no "need" to show logos and images, etc.
             | 
             | ...yes, there is. Email is a communication medium, and like
             | in all written communication, an image can be useful. Do I
             | really need to explain that images are useful in human
             | communication?
             | 
             | > and most other people
             | 
             | According to you I guess?
        
             | hyperman1 wrote:
             | I believe there is a human need for images, but also that
             | only text is still capable of creating a lot more than
             | you'd expect.
             | 
             | When email was monospace text, the whole ASCII art thing
             | was glorious. People added ANSI escape codes and gave us
             | e.g. the glowing, blinking Chernobyl cows, in plain email.
             | I also remember seeing a giant ASCII art 'high-res' nude
             | somewhere, intended to be printed on a matrix printer, on 5
             | or 6 pages of continuous paper (Long-legged she was.)
             | 
             | Writing this, I wonder what desperate marketing attention
             | whores would produce with ASCII art.
        
       | globalreset wrote:
       | Text. Just use damn text. Nobody wants to look at your logo. Why
       | biz people have to ruin everything.
        
         | mr_mitm wrote:
         | I'm pleasantly surprised that amazon actually sends plain text
         | emails. Pretty much every other corporation insists on HTML
         | mails.
        
           | bilalq wrote:
           | I just checked, and they don't. It's certainly plain looking
           | and without fancy styling/formatting, but they do send
           | content-type text/html. The links and tracking pixel images
           | are why they need HTML, I guess.
        
             | chungy wrote:
             | There's an account setting somewhere to always send plain
             | text emails and do not send HTML. I don't know where the
             | setting is, I enabled it many years ago. Been happy with
             | that.
        
             | m463 wrote:
             | This appears to be untrue. I looked at all the amazon
             | emails in my inbox and they are all:
             | Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8       Content-
             | Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
        
               | bilalq wrote:
               | Did you actually scroll through all the way? Some emails
               | send both plain text and HTML. I looked through mine and
               | indeed saw text/html for most Amazon emails (including
               | AWS). Some AWS emails like ACM cert renewals were
               | text/plain. Though like someone else said here, you may
               | have changed a setting in your account preferences. The
               | default is still HTML.
               | ------=_Part_4161549_398020174.1685704999675
               | Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8         Content-
               | Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
        
               | m463 wrote:
               | I have zero html attachments.
               | 
               | (These emails are not marketing emails which I don't get,
               | they all relate to orders and shipping)
        
               | JimDabell wrote:
               | They aren't talking about HTML attachments. HTML email is
               | typically sent as a multipart/alternative email with one
               | text/plain component and one text/html component. An
               | email with attachments is a multipart/mixed email.
        
             | mr_mitm wrote:
             | Mine have the text/plain header. I must have checked that
             | setting like the sibling commenter said.
        
             | jimmaswell wrote:
             | Tracking pixel in an email? I thought nobody had done that
             | in decades because major webmail clients pre-cache all
             | images to prevent leaking user IP etc.
        
               | bilalq wrote:
               | I don't know about decades. It's true that a lot of
               | clients do that nowadays, but they're definitely still
               | used.
        
         | captn3m0 wrote:
         | The clients also need to focus on this. Apple Mail on iOS uses
         | plain text variant to show snippets, but if you try to expand
         | the email, it only supports HTML, without a fallback to plain
         | text. This is often the case on slow internet.
        
           | fanf2 wrote:
           | That isn't true: Apple Mail is perfectly capable of showing
           | plain-text-only messages.
        
             | joaonmatos wrote:
             | The post you're responding to probably meant in the event
             | of alternative HTML+text emails. Obviously if the email is
             | plain text-only it won't invent HTML to show the user...
        
         | graypegg wrote:
         | Sticker Mule sends marketing newsletter emails in plain text
         | ONLY. I love it. They're just:
         | 
         | > Hey ${name},
         | 
         | > Our custom holographic stickers are on for on for ${deal}.
         | 
         | And that's it. I bet they have awesome deliverability because
         | it's... just email.
        
         | ryanwaggoner wrote:
         | Approximately no one outside of HN only wants text emails.
         | 
         | And the argument that anything beyond plain text is a waste and
         | ruins everything applies to literally every single medium out
         | there where the written word is conveyed: webpages, magazines,
         | printed flyers, books, etc. It's laughable to think that all
         | formatting of any kind beyond ASCII is a waste.
         | 
         | If it were up to HN readers, the entire world would be so ugly
         | and boring.
        
           | hattmall wrote:
           | Ultimately it depends on if it facilities the delivery of
           | information. In most cases excessive styling does the
           | opposite.
        
           | postalrat wrote:
           | Why doesn't HN or reddit or most social media format messages
           | in html like email? Email has been doing it for years. People
           | would love it! Images, colors, tables, etc in every message!
           | 
           | And why not in text messages? Its 2023 guys.
        
         | Yizahi wrote:
         | If only it was a simple logo. My HRs send emails with a full
         | blown wallpaper on top, which stretches the inbox on a smaller
         | screen so much that horizontal scroll appears, and text below
         | it also overflows. Or when I disabple dynamic content, then
         | they manage to create links inside the graphical buttons with
         | no alt text, invisible without the picture. And these are
         | people whose main job are emails. Sigh...
        
         | legitster wrote:
         | Ironically, plain text emails actually do better for us - the
         | problem is that plaintext emails are often _more likely_ to be
         | caught up by spam filters.
        
           | rossdavidh wrote:
           | The data I've seen suggests the opposite?
        
             | legitster wrote:
             | All of our internal tests have confirmed this, and even the
             | email providers have more or less confirmed the same thing:
             | https://blog.hubspot.com/marketing/plain-text-vs-html-
             | emails...
        
               | eastern wrote:
               | That's HTML emails _pretending_ to be plain text.
               | 
               | Meaning the 'plain' text is Html-formatted to look plain
               | and there are tracker links and probably tracking pixels
               | too.
               | 
               | Real plain text should be just like something a human
               | being typed.
               | 
               | Also, ignoring the general scamminess of hubspot, the
               | linked article says html mail is MORE likely to be
               | flagged as commercial. The article, in fact, is entirely
               | pro plain text.
        
       | legitster wrote:
       | As someone who is very familiar with designing and developing
       | emails, I think it's actually a pretty happy medium between
       | format and freedom. Not everything needs to be a responsive,
       | javascript-riddled design with interactivity. 600px-wide text
       | with graphics does the job. (The irony is that often plaintext
       | emails perform better)
       | 
       | The problem is the lack of consistency between email clients.
       | It's crazy how each email client has a completely different and
       | crazy idea for how to interpret basic HTML. And heaven help you
       | if you have a brand designer breathing down your neck about dark
       | mode...
        
       | Finnucane wrote:
       | I am involved in ebook production, so I can somewhat sympathize,
       | in that ebook reading systems tend to be way behind browsers in
       | what code they support.
       | 
       | On the other hand, complex html in emails is mainly for the
       | benefit of the businesses sending you the email, for their
       | commercial purposes, i.e., mostly spam. It rarely has anything to
       | do with communicating useful content to the receiver. If the
       | email is too complex for the client, maybe it shouldn't be in the
       | email.
        
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