[HN Gopher] Acronym's new computer with Asus is bonkers, but tha...
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       Acronym's new computer with Asus is bonkers, but that's the point
        
       Author : webmaven
       Score  : 113 points
       Date   : 2023-08-17 06:02 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (techcrunch.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (techcrunch.com)
        
       | bitwize wrote:
       | Cosplay cyberdeck junk for teenagers who want to think they're
       | Zero Cool.
       | 
       | People with _actual_ design sensibilities buy Apple.
        
         | spread_love wrote:
         | Word, remember the world before the hockey puck mouse? Strange
         | to think we used to shape those like a human hand.
        
       | Ekaros wrote:
       | Those "mounting points" look rather painful and probably
       | annoying. I can already see them catching on various things and
       | might even slightly hurt user in certain situations.
        
       | kevinventullo wrote:
       | Anyone criticizing this has simply never needed to stand in the
       | rain on the roof of a parking garage typing something into a
       | terminal prompt. That's okay, it's not for everyone.
        
         | qubex wrote:
         | I doubt this thing is waterproof, but I still admire the
         | aesthetics of it.
        
         | ericmcer wrote:
         | Makes me want to install a pen testing linux distro on it and
         | run around in sunglasses cracking peoples wifi networks.
        
         | _ZeD_ wrote:
         | yeah, generally when it rains I prefer to have a roof over my
         | head... moreso when I type.
         | 
         | you should try it :D
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | The screen frame looks like it's made from stampings from the
       | inside of a toaster.
        
       | prepend wrote:
       | I always found it odd that people would buy a computer how it
       | looks over its performance as a tool. Of course, I really like
       | cool looking stuff, but I wouldn't want a weak computer or or one
       | that ran an OS that was hard for me to use.
       | 
       | I guess there is an intersection of fashion nerd and computer
       | nerd. And I am not the arbiter of computer nerd, but I think the
       | 20 or so times I talked with people who said they were computer
       | nerds and had cool looking computers that sucked as computers
       | they didn't seem authentically computer nerdy (for lack of a
       | better word).
       | 
       | I specifically remember someone from the late 90s and early 00s
       | who kept going on and on about how he was into computers and
       | always had to have the best computers, the "absolute best" he
       | would say. Then he had these really trash Sony vaios. I asked him
       | about what he liked most and he just said how they were cool. I
       | asked him what he ran and he didn't really say anything.
       | 
       | People like collecting stuff, and I don't want to begrudge people
       | their joy. But I'd like to learn about the people who buy these
       | and what they are most interested in. I think my Sony Vaio guy
       | just bought whatever was most expensive in the store.
        
         | diegof79 wrote:
         | > I always found it odd that people would buy a computer how it
         | looks over its performance as a tool.
         | 
         | If you have the interest, take a look to the book Emotional
         | Design by Donald Norman. There is a cognitive theory on the
         | perception of a product that goes into three levels: visceral,
         | functional, and reflective.
         | 
         | Even if you only care about functionality, an unpolished
         | product will give you the impression that it's unfinished and
         | adds bias to the perception of the functionality. In this case
         | the design is oriented towards a particular audience that likes
         | the cyberpunk aspect, the impact for that people is more
         | reflective: I don't use the minimalist computers like everybody
         | else, I use something that looks imperfect but works
         | perfectly... well that's the idea. Personally, I'm more
         | inclined to the minimalism of a Mac.
        
         | [deleted]
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | orthecreedence wrote:
         | > I always found it odd that people would buy a computer how it
         | looks over its performance as a tool.
         | 
         | I'm also perpetually confused that people buy Macs.
        
         | whywhywhywhy wrote:
         | I always found it odd that people would buy a computer how it
         | looks over its performance as a tool.
         | 
         | i9-13900H, NVIDIA GeForce RTX(tm) 4070 (Laptop), 1TB SSD, 32 GB
         | RAM
         | 
         | It has looks and performance seemingly
        
         | CalRobert wrote:
         | I imagine for your friend the computer, ultimately, was a
         | commodity, and if you think of computers as a commodity then
         | the looks are one of the only distinguishing factors.
         | 
         | Similarly, how much of people's car-buying decisions come down
         | to looks? Sure things like "how many seats" or cargo capacity
         | matter but I imagine looks/perceived status boost are the
         | biggest factor for a lot of people.
         | 
         | Hell, I don't like admitting it but I actively dislike my
         | cheapo phone (Nokia G22) in part because I think the colour is
         | dumb. (Also modern Android kinda sucks, but that's a different
         | story).
        
       | ZephyrBlu wrote:
       | Never would have thought I'd see Acronym being talked about on
       | HN. Cool cross-over.
        
       | geocrasher wrote:
       | This looks more like a high end cyber deck than a usable laptop.
       | 
       | I LIKE IT.
        
       | glitchc wrote:
       | I think this machine can be described in one word: gaudy.
        
       | ilyt wrote:
       | My first thought was "damn those grooves gonna be PITA to clean".
       | 
       | > You'd better know how to touch type. The Cyrillic-ish alphabet
       | designed for Acronym by Rudnick is all part of the theme -- this
       | is a computer from another dimension slightly off axis from
       | yours, where people stand in the rain on the roof of a parking
       | garage typing something into a terminal prompt.
       | 
       |  _looks at qwerty letters clear, if a bit dim, on the keys_
       | 
       | Did author sniffed glue before reviewing it or something ?
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | skrebbel wrote:
       | I think this is super cool and I hope it's the start of a time
       | when laptops look nicer and more distinctive. There's really no
       | reason for every computer to either be a macbook or look like
       | one.
       | 
       | The idea of fashion designers making cool/new/different laptops
       | makes a lot of sense. I want one & I hope this sticks!
       | 
       | Edit: hahahh the space bar has the word "VOID" on it in a sleazy
       | serif font. Love it
        
       | baz00 wrote:
       | I would be embarrassed to crack that open and do work on it.
        
       | joshu wrote:
       | i did some procedural art for the marketing campaign behind last
       | acrnm/asus collab, although it seems to be down now:
       | http://www.skyanycolour.com/
        
       | p1necone wrote:
       | I really dislike kickstand style laptop/tablet designs, a proper
       | hinge is stable even on oddly shaped surfaces, doesn't collapse
       | when picked up, can be used while sitting on the palm of your
       | hand etc.
        
         | ilyt wrote:
         | It's pretty much for this
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/shorts/vC9qXnc5MuA
         | 
         | Althought I can't imagine someone actually using it that way...
         | 
         | The keyboard is apparently detachable so it can be used as a
         | tablet, which somewhat makes sense.
        
       | CrimsonCape wrote:
       | Anyone else notice a startling similarity between these products
       | and midjourney renderings? It's like the designer intentionally
       | finds people with odd proportions and then places clothing on
       | them at strange jaunty angles and sizing which leaves people
       | looking out of proportion to the clothing. Just like a lot of AI
       | creation.
        
       | ratel wrote:
       | I am always looking for the interesting in computer design as
       | most of what we work with is bland. The reviewer is a fanboy.
       | Okay, that happens. He is the one claiming it to be functional.
       | He calls it brutalist. Frankly I completely fail to see that with
       | its mock engraving on the aluminum case and the stylized
       | keyboard. Great design is art, but not all art is great design.
       | It does not have to be. Whatever it thinks it is, it should not
       | be boring. Unfortunately it is just that.
        
         | 1-more wrote:
         | > He calls it brutalist. Frankly I completely fail to see that
         | with its mock engraving on the aluminum case and the stylized
         | keyboard.
         | 
         | I get the brutalism thing. There are a bunch of exposed bits
         | that would normally have some trim over them. Brutalism
         | literally meant showing the raw (brut) structural concrete
         | rather than hiding it behind a facade. The back of the laptop
         | does have a little much in the way of ornate greebling, but the
         | sides of the top show just the structural bits, right?
        
       | jrm4 wrote:
       | Wow, the absolute joyless responses here remind me of exactly why
       | _this place,_ and perhaps the tech world in general, is so VERY
       | far from the wonderfully creative weird (virtual?) space that
       | fostered my love of technology.
       | 
       | I gotta find some better sites/communities
        
         | oliveshell wrote:
         | Amen.
        
         | bastardoperator wrote:
         | So because people don't share the same opinion as you, you're
         | going to leave? Peace out.
        
           | editional wrote:
           | I understand not being able to understand different opinions
           | on certain (or all) matters, its something that happens to
           | everyone. Announcing it in a nonconstructive way instead of
           | avoiding the topic, however, feels extremely off to me.
           | 
           | OP might be the perfect stereotypical HN user while
           | criticizing the same stereotype.
        
         | FridgeSeal wrote:
         | Yeah the comments admonishing a high-fashion techwear brand for
         | "odd choice of lettering" and "trying to be futuristic" are
         | strange.
         | 
         | I want to see more wacky and boundary shamelessly "techno"
         | designs like this, it's like someone brought something from a
         | Gibson novel to life and I dig it. I'll take this over the
         | current crop of bland device/tech design.
        
           | cpach wrote:
           | Yeah, this is so Gibson. When I saw these photos I
           | immediately came to think of Cayce Pollard.
        
             | wmf wrote:
             | Gibson and the Acronym guy are BFFs.
        
           | jabroni_salad wrote:
           | When I saw it my first reaction was that if Hackers had
           | released in 2023 instead of 1995, this is the computer they
           | would be using instead of netbooks
           | 
           | My second reaction is that I'm due for a rewatch of
           | Hackers...
        
         | renewiltord wrote:
         | It's hard to find optimistic places on the Internet these days.
         | I'm not sure why, but there's definitely a switch in the
         | pattern of how people interact with technology. I thought
         | perhaps it was because they don't interact with its creation,
         | but on HN I've had fellow people who write software rail
         | against easter eggs as unprofessional.
         | 
         | Perhaps makerspaces are better. Traditional tech spaces are now
         | dominated by oppressor/oppressed mindset and incessant
         | indulgence in outrage/anger.
         | 
         | Still, I can't tell if this change is a change in me or a
         | change in the world. It could well be that I just occupy
         | different spaces against my better wishes. The other day I got
         | some notification from ubuntuforums.org and found my posts from
         | 2005. Haha, that was a riot! But very earnest attempts at
         | stuff.
         | 
         | Perhaps the only solution to this is to start one.
        
         | anigbrowl wrote:
         | I don't mind the design thing or the designer price, but I
         | don't think much of the pretentious writer's voice boasting
         | about his fancy clothing collection. If that's your aesthetic
         | great, I see why he liked it. But please skip all the earnest
         | talk about how Important it is, it's just an expensive LARPing
         | outfit.
        
           | namdnay wrote:
           | > Acronym's clothing is designed to be an interface between
           | the wearer and the world. Typically, wearing technical
           | clothing and wearing regular clothing are really two separate
           | experiences.
           | 
           | Clearly the author has never set foot in the Alps (or any
           | other mountain range). People wear technicals all day every
           | day
        
         | ubermonkey wrote:
         | Thank you for this.
        
         | dchest wrote:
         | You can love creativity in tech and at the same time reject
         | fakery.
         | 
         | Maybe like someone who's into watches enjoys fun diversity of
         | Swatch and G-SHOCK or artfulness and craft of more expensive
         | brands and rejects blingy stylized pretentious watches from
         | fashion brands.
         | 
         | Also, please don't judge the community by their response to
         | this design, because this design was specifically created to be
         | polarizing. It's intended to generate debates, just like many
         | pieces art.
        
           | kkzz99 wrote:
           | This is the exact comment you are decrying. You have no idea
           | about the historic context and what acronym is and what kind
           | of impact they have in the fashion world, especially
           | techwear.
        
             | dchest wrote:
             | I don't judge their clothes, I judge this attempt at
             | computer design. If Lange & Sohne collaborated with Honda
             | on a set of fake spoilers and spiky lug nuts for Accord, I
             | would similarly judge the result as a separate product.
        
             | FireBeyond wrote:
             | Next you'll be telling us that we just "don't get" Demna
             | Gvasalia and Vetements trying to "subvert the high fashion
             | status quo" with $800 white t-shirts and $1,700 "destroyed
             | jeans"...
             | 
             | Demna Gvasalia, attempting to subvert the high fashion
             | status quo, while starting his career at Maison Martin
             | Margiela and LV, working under Marc Jacobs...
             | 
             | Demna Gvasalia, whose current position is ... _checks
             | notes_ ... creative director of Balenciaga. Ahh, yes, very
             | ... subversive.
             | 
             | The fashion world, even the high end, is not immune from
             | criticism or outright mockery.
        
           | jrm4 wrote:
           | Oh, I'm _absolutely_ judging. That 's the point of being
           | here. Probably because the people here don't feel like
           | they're saying "This is ugly and I don't like it."
           | 
           | It feels like they're saying "Because this is so ugly and
           | objectively bad, it should not exist at all. It must be
           | stamped out and everything should look like Apple."
        
         | shlubbert wrote:
         | I find it healthiest to just avoid any discussions on HN that
         | touch design or art. They never go well.
        
         | pjs_ wrote:
         | Almost all the comments on this post are positive!
        
         | MrLeap wrote:
         | I'm with you in spirit. People like different things though,
         | it's okay. It's a drag how hostile and hateful some of the
         | comments about this have been though.
         | 
         | I happen to like it. It looks rather durable. The sling
         | attachment points are really cool. If I found some indication
         | it was water resistant I'd add it to the short list of
         | acquisitions.
         | 
         | The aversion to high frequency detail is a fad that well go
         | away some day.
        
         | isoprophlex wrote:
         | For some countervibes..: I fucking love the aesthetic. Come on
         | dude/persons here at HN, it's fucking Henry Dorsett Case's
         | cyberdeck. It's outrageously priced, and noone is forcing you
         | to give up your macbook. It just looks interesting.
        
         | jacquesm wrote:
         | The most fun I had in my life was on the crossroads between art
         | and computing. It also didn't pay enough to live of but super
         | interesting work and super interesting people.
        
       | rsolva wrote:
       | My personal take is that I find the Framework laptops to be more
       | in line with the cyberpunk vision, than this. Yes, this one looks
       | kinda cool, but is it as moddable and modular as the framework?
        
       | Systemic33 wrote:
       | That's the most cyberpunk laptop/tablet I've ever seen, without
       | it looking kitsch or gaudy -- very impressive!
        
         | ilyt wrote:
         | It doesn't look very cyber-punky to me in the first place
        
         | codetrotter wrote:
         | The website is nice too.
         | 
         | https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-flow/rog-flow-z13-acrnm-rmt...
         | 
         | It has some Matrix looking visuals going on in parts of the
         | page.
         | 
         | And there is a weird video of a guy who demonstrates wearing
         | the computer, without saying anything. The vibe reminds me of
         | that video game from a few years ago where you play a hacker in
         | a cyberpunk future.
        
           | psimonazzi wrote:
           | That guy is actually Errolson, the cofounder and designer of
           | Acronym.
        
         | alpaca128 wrote:
         | Doesn't beat an old Thinkpad imho
        
       | hn_shithole wrote:
       | >How do you critique functional art?
       | 
       | TechCrunch should be banned from having submissions on HN.
        
       | solardev wrote:
       | This thing is Stable Diffusion's drunken vision of a cyberpunk
       | dystopia.
       | 
       | ...is that a good or bad thing?
        
       | AndrewKemendo wrote:
       | This kind of writing is a marvelous breath of fresh air.
       | 
       | I've worked with Matt Panzarino in the past a few times and he's
       | one of the most well versed tech journalists out there. And a
       | nice guy to boot
       | 
       | Laptop sounds pretty amazing too if pricey
        
       | dchest wrote:
       | Dieter Rams's Ten principles of good design state:
       | 
       | 5. Good design is unobtrusive. Products fulfilling a purpose are
       | like tools. They are neither decorative objects nor works of art.
       | Their design should therefore be both neutral and restrained, to
       | leave room for the user's self-expression.
       | 
       | 6. Good design is honest. It does not make a product more
       | innovative, powerful or valuable than it really is. It doesn't
       | attempt to manipulate the consumer with promises that cannot be
       | kept.
       | 
       | If you read these principles and reverse them, you get your
       | typical "product art" -- a product form of clickbait titles -- an
       | attention-grabbing product that's intended to shock and generate
       | PR, not sell the actual thing.
       | 
       | Such products are usually shallow: stylized to some theme without
       | deeply understanding it, like user interfaces from movies, or
       | like Lcroium's* own website (https://acrnm.com), which is
       | stylized with useless _underscores and [brackets] without
       | understanding why they are used in computing.
       | 
       | *) that's how you read ACRONYM's logo if you know Cyrillic.
        
         | f33d5173 wrote:
         | It seems like they're a fashion company. I don't see how one
         | can "leave room for the user's self-expression" if one doesn't
         | permit and even encourage the user to buy pieces of fashion or
         | artwork to go along with utilitarian sensibility.
         | 
         | Also, the website proper that you linked is amazingly
         | utilitarian, especially in contrast to your introduction. It
         | loads fast, and shows a list of images of various products
         | right on the front page. I have seldom seen a product company
         | with such a practical website as this. I had to look around to
         | find the misuse of special characters that you're criticizing
         | them for. This hardly ruins an otherwise good website
        
         | A_D_E_P_T wrote:
         | "L" = "A" is the most annoying faux-futuristic typesetting/logo
         | trend I've ever come across. It's a lambda, "L", the ancient
         | symbol of the Lacedaemonians.
         | 
         | It should be possible to make an avantgarde font without
         | confusing or oversimplifying letters.
         | 
         | As an aside, I wonder how many graphic t-shirts those guys sell
         | at $200.
        
           | aqfamnzc wrote:
           | Who are you to say that your interpretation of that character
           | is any more valid than anyone else's? One might see a "turned
           | v"[0] or any other manner of meanings.[1] However most
           | English-speaking people are going to immediately realize that
           | it's meant as a stylized "A".
           | 
           | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turned_v [1]
           | https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E4%BA%BA
        
           | jrockway wrote:
           | I swap the N and M keycaps on my keyboard because I think
           | they should be in alphabetical order. It turns out that the
           | labels on the keys have absolutely no bearing on which
           | scancodes they produce!
        
             | roskoez wrote:
             | [flagged]
        
           | petsfed wrote:
           | Blame NASA ca 1975?
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | masfuerte wrote:
           | Their plastic macs cost two grand!
        
           | jacquesm wrote:
           | Yes, designers are nuts for wanting to make logos that stand
           | out. The design trend I'm sick and tired of is spacing common
           | words with underscores and using capitals to achieve the
           | exact same effect.
        
             | A_D_E_P_T wrote:
             | Well, it could be worse. I could have done this: LDKsPT
             | 
             | Anyway, my point was that the symbol "L" has a distinct
             | meaning from the symbol "A" -- and, try as I might, I can't
             | see them as interchangeable.
        
               | bitwize wrote:
               | Have you seen that cool recent movie set on Arrakis? I
               | believe it's called [?][?][?][?]
        
               | CrimsonCape wrote:
               | Nice, love it. What's the technical explanation for this?
               | I assume it's because HTML5 renders all UTF-8 characters?
        
               | bitwize wrote:
               | Hackernews actually throws out many Unicode characters,
               | such as emoji. But it renders the ones I used, in order
               | U+2283 SUPERSET OF, U+222A UNION, U+2229 INTERSECTION,
               | and U+2208 ELEMENT OF.
        
               | jacquesm wrote:
               | Most people that come across this logo have never seen L
               | before. They might mistake it for an elongated '^' or an
               | upside down 'V' but the bulk will just see an 'A' with a
               | missing '-'.
               | 
               | There is also 'V' as 'U' which is quite confusing and
               | some others. Creative people will be creative, that's
               | what they get paid for. It's low hanging fruit, obviously
               | but it works because you _are_ talking about it. And that
               | was their goal: to get you to notice it. Mission
               | accomplished.
        
               | FireBeyond wrote:
               | Looking at new camera bags, I stumbled across the WANDRD
               | (sure, okay) PRVKE (what? Pruke? Took me far longer than
               | it should to realize it was meant to be 'provoke')...
        
               | HelloNurse wrote:
               | By ignorants, for ignorants.
               | 
               | I for N is equally terrible and meaningless.
        
               | MrLeap wrote:
               | There are smart people who like things you hate. You know
               | what kind of person isn't empathetic and compassionate
               | towards their fellow humans? They're idiots! Stupid
               | idiots! MOOOOORONS.
        
               | jacquesm wrote:
               | ABBA started it...
        
         | mydriasis wrote:
         | > Lcroium's
         | 
         | even worse - C -> S in Cyrillic :)
        
         | throwanem wrote:
         | I didn't know about this manufacturer, but I'm glad I do now,
         | because I've been wondering since 2015 where Ubisoft got the
         | design cues for "WATCH_DOGS".
         | 
         | 'Shallow' is indeed the word...
        
         | whywhywhywhy wrote:
         | Being a good designer is knowing "Dieter Rams's Ten principles
         | of good design"
         | 
         | Being a great designer is knowing they don't matter
        
         | boppo1 wrote:
         | I have a 7950x, 64GB of ram, a 4800RTX and that website won't
         | run 30fps for me. Hell it shoots my cpu to 100%. Gross.
        
           | rjbwork wrote:
           | 3950x, 64gb, 3090 here. CPU usage on firefox didn't rise
           | above .7% for me.
        
           | Cipater wrote:
           | I have a cheap laptop with 8 GB of RAM and an integrated
           | graphics card yet loading the website doesn't even register
           | on my CPU usage.
           | 
           | You have a problem with your setup.
        
             | boppo1 wrote:
             | What could it be? Everything else runs fine.
        
         | namdnay wrote:
         | To be fair, Fashion isn't really the same as design. No one
         | expects the latest Gucci dress or Lamborghini to be unobtrusive
        
         | mavu wrote:
         | This is a very bad take, and serves only to highlight the
         | joylessness of the person writing it (and the original "design
         | principles")
         | 
         | I would instantly dispute pretty much any word of the first 3
         | sentences in your post. (except maybe the name)
         | 
         | If you want to live in a world without choice, where everyone
         | and everything looks the same (the inevitable endpoint of form
         | follows function), be my guest, but at the end of your sad life
         | you will remember all the times you looked back over the fence
         | at all the people enjoying life in all its diverse forms,
         | shapes, textures, activities and regret some choices you made
         | along the way.
        
           | HelloNurse wrote:
           | Consider how joyless the designer of the unreadable keycaps
           | must be, their sad life as they remember all the times they
           | willfully damaged their even more clueless customers in
           | pursuit of pseudo-style, looking at life in all its diverse
           | forms, shapes, textures, activities and choosing bad ones for
           | the lulz.
           | 
           | Technical constraints do exist, and if you shit on them you
           | are a pretentious bad designer of products that cannot be
           | taken seriously.
        
             | Nullabillity wrote:
             | Maybe not every keyboard has to be designed for hunt-and-
             | peckers. It's not even particularly original, Das Keyboard
             | has sold blank keyboards for a decade, and many mobile
             | keyboards have supported hiding the key labels for ages too
             | (I've used it in Fleksy and MessagEase, but I'm sure many
             | others have it too).
             | 
             | Maybe it's not for you. That's okay. If it's been a niche
             | for this long then I doubt it's gonna be the default
             | anytime soon.
        
             | jrockway wrote:
             | I don't know how y'all type, but typically looking at a
             | keyboard is only something you do for your first year after
             | encountering a computer for the first time. After that, the
             | keyboard takes up your desk, but isn't something you look
             | at in order to use. Thus, keycaps optimized for looking
             | nice while not in use makes more sense than keycaps
             | optimized for being readable. You shouldn't be reading
             | keycaps while you type, because you have a limited field of
             | view and what's showing up on the screen is more relevant
             | than what keys are being pressed.
             | 
             | So the designer doing "I can just focus on art" is probably
             | experiencing more joy than the designer doing "this has to
             | be as cheap as possible" or "this is a keyboard for
             | children learning to touch type", simply because the scope
             | of work is so much more unconstrained. Art could be
             | anything! A keyboard for people learning to use computers
             | is going to mostly be letters.
        
             | [deleted]
        
           | dav_Oz wrote:
           | There is certainly a grey zone, here. I personally think a
           | more long lasting enjoyment and satisfaction comes from the
           | possibility of putting some work in e.g. modifying (self-
           | expression)/modularity and not some highly polished
           | "finished" product which barely holds itself:
           | 
           | > _Their design should therefore be both neutral and
           | restrained, to leave room for the user 's self-expression._
           | 
           | But I also have nothing against highly volatile treats from
           | time to time reminding myself that in the end one must be
           | also able to let go and enjoy the moment.
           | 
           | In keeping with the golden mean (mesotes) these two things
           | pushed too far are of course ugly, indeed, but the beauty of
           | it very much depends from which side you need a steering
           | direction.
           | 
           | For me for example the tension between the aesthetic choice
           | (ornament) camouflaged by caricaturing multi-functionality
           | (usefulness) of the packaging of an ordinary product is an
           | artistic expression of the state of affair we find ourselves:
           | instant technical obsolescence the moment you have the
           | product in your hands becoming an artifact in its own right.
           | Is art ever useful? Is its value ultimately not just based on
           | a fundamental impotency? I guess nowadays the most talented
           | pool of artists express themselves through marketing. /s
        
           | izacus wrote:
           | > If you want to live in a world without choice, where
           | everyone and everything looks the same (the inevitable
           | endpoint of form follows function), be my guest, but at the
           | end of your sad life you will remember all the times you
           | looked back over the fence at all the people enjoying life in
           | all its diverse forms, shapes, textures, activities and
           | regret some choices you made along the way.
           | 
           | Are you implying that the same gray macbook, paired with the
           | same iPhone, that everyone else at your company, in your
           | social circle and every coffee shop of your town is not the
           | PINNACLE of social existence?
        
             | kevinventullo wrote:
             | Almost every iPhone user I know has a distinct unique case.
             | Some cases are designed specifically for wireless charging,
             | some have pop sockets which make it easier to hold, some
             | have clear cases with a photograph inserted between the
             | phone and the back of the case.
        
             | MisterBastahrd wrote:
             | I don't see how buying something that is mass produced is a
             | form of self-expression outside of the idea that you're an
             | adherent of basic capitalism. Expression is what happens
             | AFTER you buy it.
             | 
             | Personally speaking after growing up in the 80s and having
             | to be a slave to multiple brands from year to year lest I
             | be labeled a lesser child for not having whatever was chic,
             | I'm happy if everyone wears non-descript but functional
             | items that they then modify how they want. Most children in
             | 1987 were walking Coca-cola billboards who wouldn't be
             | caught dead without Guess, Girbaud, or Z Cavaricci jeans.
             | It's one of the outlying reasons that most public schools
             | have dress codes nowadays.
        
           | andsoitis wrote:
           | > everything looks the same (the inevitable endpoint of form
           | follows function)
           | 
           | Optimizing for different tradeoffs (i.e. utility) tells us
           | that sameness is not the end-state of form follows function.
        
         | pm3003 wrote:
         | that's how you read ACRONYM's logo if you know Cyrillic.
         | 
         | Wouldn't it be more like Lsroioum's ?
        
         | bmacho wrote:
         | > Lcroium's*
         | 
         | > *) that's how you read ACRONYM's logo if you know Cyrillic.
         | 
         | If you know Cyrillic, then why not read it as it is written?
         | What's the point of bastard translating it to Latin?
        
           | icepat wrote:
           | And also incorrect, C produces variant of the S sound. With ^
           | not even being a Cyrillic character, but one from the IPA
           | symbol set. L is L or l.
           | 
           | That said though, the translation of Cyrillic to Latin is
           | commonly done, and a rather opinionated field. As is the
           | reverse, Cyrillization.
        
             | dchest wrote:
             | L, although not standard in most Cyrillic typography, is a
             | valid Cyrillic form of L -- it's how you write L by hand,
             | and also how it appears in some typefaces. It's also used
             | in Bulgarian Cyrillic.
        
               | icepat wrote:
               | My point more here is that l in typeface means something
               | very different. That character has a specific meaning,
               | the logo is clearly just picking and choosing random
               | symbols to look good. That said, my point about C still
               | stands.
               | 
               | It is good to know that symbol is acceptable for
               | handwritten forms though, I've been struggling to
               | differentiate l and p in my handwriting.
        
             | elzbardico wrote:
             | I know some Russian and worked with people native from
             | Russia, so I would use the opportunity to train my Russian
             | language skills chating with them. Using a latin keyboard
             | as Russian input is incredibly easy in my opinion. But this
             | keyboard is not cyrilic. It is just a mix of symbols for no
             | purpose beyond visual appeal.
        
               | icepat wrote:
               | Yes, my point exactly.
        
               | dchest wrote:
               | That's the thing -- normally at first sight you might
               | recognize "I" as mirrored "N". However when you're used
               | to reading Cyrillic alphabet, you see it as "I" at first
               | and only later realize that it's mangled Latin. Given
               | enough similar looking characters, it becomes hard to
               | read. This doesn't work all the time, e.g. if a word has
               | a single "Ia" ("ya") in place of "R", it's usually easy
               | to read. Your milage may vary.
               | 
               | Speaking of keyboards, how the hell do they think this
               | product would be sold in countries where there are two
               | sets of alphabets on keyboards if it already comes
               | prefilled with nonsense characters? :)
        
           | dchest wrote:
           | I don't understand what you mean. There are two Cyrillic
           | letters (ok, the first one is more Greek with the same
           | meaning) in their logo: L and I, the rest are Latin (apart
           | from "C" which is pronounced "s", and "Y" which looks like U
           | and reads as "u"/"oo"). I provided an attempt of latinization
           | of how I read it at on first attempt.
        
             | [deleted]
        
         | pclark wrote:
         | Acronym make elite tier men's clothing -- they're anything but
         | shallow.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | mrguyorama wrote:
           | "Elite Tier"
           | 
           | Oh, says who?
        
           | FireBeyond wrote:
           | This makes no sense. You can absolutely be high end _and_
           | superficial. Nothing about the two is mutually exclusive.
        
           | dchest wrote:
           | I said nothing about their clothing. I didn't come to their
           | fashion field with my knowledge and taste. They came to
           | computing, a field I'm passionate about, and produced shallow
           | cargo-culted design presented as an actual product.
        
             | pclark wrote:
             | [flagged]
        
         | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
         | > Good design is unobtrusive. Products fulfilling a purpose are
         | like tools. They are neither decorative objects nor works of
         | art. Their design should therefore be both neutral and
         | restrained, to leave room for the user's self-expression.
         | 
         | Excuse my French, but fuck Dieter Rams. I certainly understand
         | this viewpoint, and I have no problem with folks that adhere to
         | it, but my problem is with stating as some sort of axiom, with
         | no evidence or reason, that "Products fulfilling a purpose are
         | neither decorative objects nor works of art."
         | 
         | Humans have built things that are both functional _and_
         | beautiful since culture first existed, and there is nothing
         | wrong with designing products with a strong visual aesthetic
         | viewpoint. If we all followed Dieter Rams ' silly advice, all
         | of our computers would still be boring beige boxes, maybe
         | covered in stickers "for the user's self-expression."
         | 
         | Note I say this while agreeing with the latter part of your
         | post. I'm not a fan of this particular design - it feels
         | kitschy and shallow in the same way that Hollywood "hacker"
         | movies show terminals that look like 3D game worlds. But that's
         | just my personal opinion, and I don't fault people for feeling
         | the exact opposite. I do fault people for saying that you
         | shouldn't be allowed to try, and if you do that you are "not
         | following principles of good design."
        
           | ethbr1 wrote:
           | > _If we all followed Dieter Rams ' silly advice, all of our
           | computers would still be boring beige boxes, maybe covered in
           | stickers "for the user's self-expression."_
           | 
           | Parent should have quoted the entire set, in which good
           | design...                  - is innovative        - makes a
           | product useful        - is aesthetic        - makes a product
           | understandable        - is unobtrusive        - is honest
           | - is long-lasting        - is thorough down to the last
           | detail        - is environmentally friendly        - is
           | minimal
           | 
           | Dieter Rams and the Ulm functionalist school of thought
           | differed from the immediately preceding minimalists ("less is
           | more") by accepting that design exists and needs to be great
           | on multiple planes: e.g. function, aesthetic, psychological,
           | etc. (many of which are human and subjective!)
           | 
           | To chisel functionalism in industrial design down to
           | something I can fit in a HN comment, my takeaway was that
           | their central tenant was 'Have a specific useful vision, that
           | values your user above yourself, and optimize everything in
           | service to that vision.'
           | 
           | With the understanding that designed objects aren't paintings
           | and must have a utility component.
           | 
           | PS: I would also have a long disagreement about fanciful
           | graphical representations of computing in visual media as a
           | metaphor intended to convey an experience to a computer-
           | illiterate audience, versus a kitschy misunderstanding of
           | reality. ;-)
           | 
           | Technical advisors and directors aren't idiots. You think
           | it's a coincidence that the primary method of interacting
           | with a computer in the Star Trek universe is voice-first?
        
           | CharlesW wrote:
           | > _I do fault people for saying that you shouldn 't be
           | allowed to try..._
           | 
           | Can you remind me of the quote where Dieter Rams says that
           | you shouldn't be allowed to try?
        
             | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
             | I am responding to the author that, at least in my take,
             | appears to be stating that these are "anointed" "good
             | design principles", and that if you don't adhere to Rams'
             | singular viewpoint, you are by definition engaging in bad
             | design.
        
               | dchest wrote:
               | The exact words I typed are "If you read these principles
               | and reverse them...".
               | 
               | These are Dieter's principles -- a product design
               | approach that he believes leads to good design. I pointed
               | out that if you apply the opposite of them, you get this
               | product.
        
           | throwanem wrote:
           | Rams' functionalism is itself a reaction to the ornateness
           | for its own sake that characterized a lot of design in
           | decades prior. But these days functionalism itself seems to
           | be the hegemonic school of thought - consider Apple, for
           | example, which hews closely to functionalist precepts by
           | deliberate intent, and provides a lot of cues for other
           | companies. So a reaction to what was itself once the
           | challenger and is now the incumbent seems reasonable.
           | 
           | That said, I agree the aesthetic here under discussion is
           | pretty miserable. Ostentatious CNC tool marks might impress
           | some, but to me it just says they couldn't be bothered to
           | finish manufacturing the thing before they shipped it, and it
           | shares with brutalism the trait of being deliberately
           | unwelcoming to the senses as a way of demanding attention be
           | paid to itself.
        
             | codemac wrote:
             | The irony being of course, that huge flat slabs are not
             | somehow inherently more "functional" than something with a
             | handle, or a screen that doesn't break, or a back that
             | doesn't scratch etc.
             | 
             | We just kind of hand-wavy announce that anything boring,
             | sleek, or rectangular is "functional". It's not.
        
               | throwanem wrote:
               | I didn't say "functional"; I said "functionalist" and
               | "functionalism". The latter terms refer to a school of
               | industrial design that aspires to its particular
               | definition of the former.
               | 
               | I can respect the motivation behind this; I favor
               | midcentury modern furniture not least precisely because
               | it doesn't insist on itself with an excess of ornament,
               | as Rams also inveighs against. But there's a seasonality
               | in any new idea; after the first generation for whom it's
               | revolutionary comes a second for whom it's the status quo
               | ante, and most of those raised with any norm will defend
               | and uphold it for its own sake just because it's what
               | they know to be "normal", whether or not the idea itself
               | or its application still makes sense. Hence the
               | canonization of an aesthetic based originally around the
               | idea that no aesthetic deserves to be canonized.
        
             | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
             | > So a reaction to what was itself once the challenger and
             | is now the incumbent seems reasonable.
             | 
             | I agree with everything you've said, but would just point
             | out that the pendulum has perhaps started swinging in the
             | other direction: a lot of folks in the design world are
             | starting to push back against the associated
             | minimalist/functionalist aesthetic that has taken over much
             | of the world: it can make our built environments feel
             | sterile, boring, and robotic.
        
               | throwanem wrote:
               | Yeah, I get that, although I'm not sure if
               | functionalistic design is only to blame; I'd look also to
               | a culture of disposability that inculcates the idea that
               | if something isn't or ceases to be fully satisfactory as
               | received from the factory, the way to address that is by
               | throwing it out and buying something else, rather than
               | fixing or modifying it to better suit the need.
               | 
               | Design is meant to exist in conversation with culture,
               | and after such a long time developing a society that
               | revolves around consumption I think that meaning has been
               | lost. "Right to repair" is a partial reaction to this
               | also, and valuable as such, but what I really want to see
               | is a swing back in the direction of the idea that made
               | things can and _should_ be made to last - not as perfect,
               | impenetrable monoliths of capital-D Design, but as
               | longstanding participants in the lives of the people with
               | whom they 're surrounded, and which can be and are
               | changed by those people to better meet the needs of the
               | day and year and decade.
               | 
               | That isn't something the money power has any incentive to
               | want these days, of course; every thing that need not be
               | replaced today is a thing for which no replacement will
               | be bought or sold today. But this is not a novel problem,
               | and it has been solved before.
        
               | ethbr1 wrote:
               | Exactly. The removal of user modification from culture is
               | a big loss.
               | 
               | In the 90s, it was nothing to stitch a patch on a piece
               | of clothing that made it uniquely yours, or artfully
               | distress your jeans.
               | 
               | Now, people just... don't. Because they can buy them like
               | that.
               | 
               | Great for consumerism. Less great for individuality and
               | building self-reliance.
        
               | TheOtherHobbes wrote:
               | This product isn't any less sterile, boring and robotic.
               | 
               | Just the opposite. It's ostentatiously sterile, boring
               | and robotic.
               | 
               | While also being retro, and trying very hard to look like
               | something that might have appeared in the original Matrix
               | movie - which was 24 years ago.
               | 
               | Visually, it's _unoriginal,_ which is an unforgivable
               | design sin - literally a stock laplet with pointless
               | metal bits stuck on which will get in the way if you 're
               | trying to use it seriously.
               | 
               | It fails as fashion because it looks like a mess, neither
               | cool, exotic, nor aspirational.
               | 
               | And it fails as design because while it's - perhaps -
               | trying to be ironic, it takes itself too seriously to be
               | funny. And it's just not very functional.
        
             | isoprophlex wrote:
             | > it shares with brutalism the trait of being deliberately
             | unwelcoming to the senses as a way of demanding attention
             | be paid to itself.
             | 
             | Interesting, is that what you take away from brutalism? To
             | me brutalist design and art is deliberately unwelcoming to
             | critique the blandness and safeness of our modern cushioned
             | existence, not a puerile drawing of attention. I actually
             | enjoy the aesthetic.
             | 
             | But then, disclaimer, I'm a sucker for histrionics and
             | theatrical gimmicks.
        
               | throwanem wrote:
               | That's a reading of brutalism I haven't encountered
               | before. It's not one with which I find myself at all
               | favorably impressed, not least because a phrase like "the
               | blandness and safeness of our modern cushioned existence"
               | suggests a level of engagement with history that,
               | speaking charitably, could stand to be much further
               | developed. But maybe there's a more detailed treatment of
               | this analysis that you could point me to.
        
               | isoprophlex wrote:
               | I'm sorry, I'm being vague. I didn't mean it like that,
               | I'm not talking about why le corbusier's had a love
               | affair with concrete. I was thinking about how I hate
               | corporate memphis and the design of 95% of UIs, and how I
               | wish there was more "nu-brutalist" web/app design to give
               | all those bland pastels the finger.
        
               | throwanem wrote:
               | Ah, I think I see what you might be driving at. Would it
               | be fair to summarize the view as holding that, beyond
               | valuable affordances for safety equivalent to handrails
               | and warning signs, etc., it does no one any favors to
               | attempt to conceal the essential complexity of the
               | technology underpinning much of contemporary society?
        
               | HeWhoLurksLate wrote:
               | I went to high school in what was essentially an old
               | castle-looking building- when they converted it to have
               | electricity and stuff, they put in conduit and the like,
               | but then painted it to match the walls.
               | 
               | One of my friends did a bit of photoshop to see what it
               | would look like if the conduit was instead a dull gray
               | and it looked so much better and so distinctive that it
               | felt like I had been robbed.
               | 
               | I think there's a reason everybody seems to love the star
               | trek engine room
        
         | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
         | Dieter Rams's principles apply more to consumer products rather
         | than art or fashion.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | andsoitis wrote:
           | > more to consumer products rather than art or fashion
           | 
           | Surely this computer is still ultimately meant for computing
           | (in style)?
        
             | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
             | Surely their jackets are meant to keep you warm and dry (in
             | style)?
        
           | jnwatson wrote:
           | It doesn't even apply to consumer products. Thankfully to
           | Apple's shareholder, they obviously ignored these rules.
        
       | spread_love wrote:
       | > _You'd better know how to touch type. The Cyrillic-ish alphabet
       | designed for Acronym by Rudnick is all part of the theme_
       | 
       | Any high res photos of the keys/lettering?
        
         | dustincoates wrote:
         | You can see it here: https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-flow/rog-
         | flow-z13-acrnm-rmt...
        
       | shrubble wrote:
       | So they made the case/housing out of aluminum and water resistant
       | cloth but it isn't water resistant?
        
       | CrimsonCape wrote:
       | There's some sort of Asian soul (not sure of a good word) in
       | these "repurposing" trends. There's noticeable "versions" of
       | "camping" in Japan and Korea (also Instagram trends).
       | Anecdotally, Japanese have fostered a sort of homeless-aesthetic
       | with camping products. Koreans have fostered a sort of retro-
       | nostalgia-diorama-and-cooking with camping.
        
       | yelling_cat wrote:
       | 24-year-old me would have been Googling where to buy this by the
       | time I was halfway through the article. It's not for me any more,
       | but Acronym definitely hit what they were going for with this.
       | Laptop and phone design used to be a lot less homogeneous than it
       | is now, and though our devices are vastly more powerful and
       | functional these days they definitely lack a sense of fun. I
       | applaud anyone working to bring that back.
        
       | dist-epoch wrote:
       | Is there a name for the aesthetic where you simulate something
       | being rough, unfinished?
       | 
       | In this case, they simulate a haphazard laptop where the creator
       | ran out of same color keys and used whatever they had or they
       | simulate not having time to finish the machining of the aluminum
       | and leaving it in the roughing stage.
       | 
       | Put another name, what's the name of the very intentional and
       | studied "I don't care about looks" aesthetic, where you "don't
       | care" in a very precise and fashionable way.
        
         | themoonisachees wrote:
         | I guess cyberpunk is the closest. Nasa-punk also has similar
         | features, proffering functional edges over a supposed plastic
         | cover which would add weight, making it unsuitable for sending
         | it to space.
        
         | whywhywhywhy wrote:
         | >Is there a name for the aesthetic where you simulate something
         | being rough, unfinished?
         | 
         | Wabi-sabipunk
        
         | lioeters wrote:
         | > what's the name of the very intentional and studied "I don't
         | care about looks" aesthetic
         | 
         | I've noticed this approach and attitude in various arts, but
         | it's hard to put a single word to it. As another commenter
         | mentioned, I think wabi-sabi is related, and punk too.
         | 
         | > The aesthetic is sometimes described as one of appreciating
         | beauty that is "imperfect, impermanent, and incomplete" in
         | nature. It is prevalent in many forms of Japanese art.
         | 
         | For example in ceramics, they value the crooked, asymmetrical,
         | coarse, and cracked. In calligraphy, it's the splash and drip,
         | the way the brush runs out of ink and how the line fades out
         | near the tail end.
         | 
         | In singing, it's the smokey aged voice that breaks perfectly
         | when pushed by emotion. Or other musical instruments, when the
         | sound gets dirty because of the physical material being pushed
         | to its limits, like an over-driven guitar amp, or a violin
         | bowing a string too hard but actually perfectly hitting that
         | point intentionally, to get that stank, that nasty, it makes
         | you grimace with pleasure.
         | 
         | In theatre they say, "You need to throw it away." Apparently,
         | acting can get stiff and unnatural when you try too hard, so
         | you need to let go a bit, as if you don't care, to give it room
         | to breathe.
         | 
         | I suppose it can be seen in literture too, like "stream of
         | consciousness" style, or certain narrative voice that
         | tastefully breaks the rules of grammar.
         | 
         | > where you "don't care" in a very precise and fashionable way
         | 
         | That's the trick it seems, that this "don't care" attitude is
         | actually very polished, studied, carefully done, paying
         | attention down to the details, and then letting it go. It's an
         | artful use of "mistakes" and imperfections. Jazz is like that,
         | they value the richness of "off" harmonies, dissonance,
         | polyrhythms which can sound "wrong" to the unfamiliar but which
         | is exactly what the connoiseurs appreciate and enjoy.
        
           | lioeters wrote:
           | This book sounds fun to read.
           | 
           | Wabi-Sabi: For Artists, Designers, Poets & Philosophers, by
           | Leonard Koren
           | 
           | > It is a beauty of things imperfect, impermanent, and
           | incomplete. It is a beauty of things modest and humble.
           | 
           | And a discussion around how it might relate to software:
           | 
           | >> A related term in literature and the arts is "clinamen",
           | the act of deliberately breaking a stylistic rule to enhance
           | the beauty of an otherwise perfect whole.
           | 
           | http://wiki.c2.com/?WabiSabi
        
         | michaelt wrote:
         | _> they simulate a haphazard laptop where the creator ran out
         | of same color keys and used whatever they had_
         | 
         | See, I interpreted that as like those gaming keyboards where
         | the WASD keys are a different colour - but moreso. With
         | mysterious extra keys.
        
         | tokai wrote:
         | Punk. Though technically the laptop is techware I guess.
        
       | seltzered_ wrote:
       | FYI there's others that use and talk about the Asus ROG flow z13
       | acronym on https://www.reddit.com/r/flowz13/
       | 
       | It's too weird for me, and yet I keep considering it as it's one
       | of the only tablet PCs currently out with 32GB ram and can run
       | Linux without too many headaches.
        
       | rowanG077 wrote:
       | I love it. If I wouldn't have just bought a Macbook Pro I would
       | seriously consider moving to that.
        
       | karmicthreat wrote:
       | This is the laptop 90's me would have wanted.
        
         | namdnay wrote:
         | Yeah straight out of "Hackers"
        
       | whywhywhywhy wrote:
       | I really appreciate the hard work of the design team managing to
       | get something so daring looking to ship and the using of machine
       | marks as a design feature is a lovely touch.
        
       | iakov wrote:
       | Looks really cool, the kind of tech fashion that doesn't scream
       | "nerd!".
       | 
       | I am a bit torn by they keyboard though - the primary labels are
       | certainly not functional, and secondary english labels look like
       | last-minute addition with a mismatched font. I wish they went
       | either with complete nonsense print, or with a more functional
       | one.
        
         | ericmcer wrote:
         | The keyboard also looks like a carpal tunnel nightmare for any
         | long form computer session.
        
         | CameronNemo wrote:
         | Whenever I see a picture of a keyboard online I wish they would
         | also publish a video of somebody actually using it.
        
       | toyg wrote:
       | As someone who turned into a bit of a gadget-fashion-victim over
       | the last 15 years, I'm not really digging this. It has a 16-year-
       | old, cyberpunk-wannabe, gamer vibe. I guess '90s aesthetic is
       | back.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | vidarh wrote:
         | That is pretty much the target demographics. "ROG" is "Republic
         | of Gamers".
        
           | bitwize wrote:
           | I used to use the term "Lambo vents" to describe gamer-gear
           | excrescence. The inspiration was an Asus ROG laptop I
           | actually used on a job that had deep, oddly-shaped fan
           | exhaust vents that looked like the intake vents on a
           | Lamborghini.
           | 
           | Turns out that ROG beast was a rebadged model formerly in
           | Asus's Lamborghini co-branded line, intended to compete with
           | Acer's Ferrari laptops.
        
         | sp332 wrote:
         | That's really Acronym's whole thing.
        
       | DrinkWater wrote:
       | There is almost general consensus (in the
       | techwear/streetwear/fashion scene) that Acronym is functional,
       | but more in the sense of "functional for the sake of aesthetics".
       | 
       | The stuff is really expensive, it is delicate and you have an
       | ultra-narrow range of weather conditions where you can actually
       | wear it. The laptop in this article is kind of the same.
        
         | namdnay wrote:
         | Yeah I'm pretty sure you can get better for less in any
         | Decathlon :)
        
         | piva00 wrote:
         | I don't feel that Acronym pieces are that delicate, at least
         | the jackets and shells I have can take a beating as being worn
         | day-over-day. Also don't really agree with ultra-narrow range
         | of weather conditions, I wear them during most seasons (from
         | mid-fall all the way to late-spring), the exception is summer.
         | I also have a Nike ACG jacket that was a collaboration between
         | Nike and Acronym, and even that has been really durable, 8
         | years going strong and has saved me during a lot of rainy days
         | while biking.
        
           | nicholassmith wrote:
           | I've got very similar thoughts, I have some ACG & Acronym
           | trousers which I rotate through and I don't have any concerns
           | about delicacy. The biggest problem is I wear the ACG
           | trousers so often the black dye has started to fade, the main
           | Acronym ones I think I'll be wearing in a decade still.
        
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